Non-AudioCircle perspective on RMAF

[mfsoa]

I understand we're allowed (encouraged even?) to say stuff like this on AN, so I have a little observation-

Reading the comments RE RMAF over on AC, one gets the impression that every mfgr w/ an AC presence had the best sound at the show and that no other maker of audio goodies understands what good sound is.

Yet I just read through a 65+ long thread on AGon about the best/worst sounds at the show, and jeez there was barely a mention of any of the stuff that is consistently being hailed as the second coming on AC. I did see mention of Omega and the good value at the Grant room, but little or nothing more than that.

I guess this stuck out due to what I see as the cults of personalities that surround (and are fostered by) many of the mfgr circles on AC. If you disagree with them it's like you called their baby ugly. Great press for the mfgrs, but hardly the way to have honest discourse about this hobby.

I know that many posters were merely providing info about the mfgrs that most people on AC are familiar with - I guess that's only natural.

But to read the comments on AC vs. AGon makes it seem like there were two RMAF going on - One for AC mfgrs and then the rest.

No big deal and I do over-generalize. Just wanted to say, for apparently no good reason

-Mike

[AcidJazz]

Hah..."believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see..." I think that applies very much to a fair amount of the "raves" over at AC (or possibly any other audio forum).
Its not uncommon to see(read) people recommending gear they have never seen much less heard, based sorely on what they have "read"(other people's opinion).
Audio quality assessment is such a subjective and personal thing, the best remedy is to hear for oneself.
I think the OP of "what he learned at RMAF" was 90% spot on (and I was not even there  )
But based on my experience of other shows and NYAR I felt many of his points were on the money.

[topround]

Mike,
Thank you for posting this.
This has always been a problem with me and AC , the damn fan boy mentality that is taking over there.
I started tweaking a few guys in the Salk circle and got blasted by them and reprimanded by John R.

I am sick of it, it has become irrelevant over there, and any serious discourse is shunned.

Again thanks for speaking what you feel...and that is the truth.

I am sure we will get more and more disgruntled Acer's to visit here, and eventually Nervosa will become what AC once was.!

Mike

[richidoo]

I understand we're allowed (encouraged even?) to say stuff like this on AN, so I have a little observation-

Mike, your post is thoughtful, intelligent and respectful, while making a critical observation. That is allowed at AN. Personal insults, or things that make others uncomfortable is not. Thanks for asking.

[mgalusha]

While I can see the idea of not allowing people to crap in a vendors sandbox it unfortunately leads to exactly what is being discussed here. Personally I just don't post in almost any of the AC vendor areas, it's not worth the BS involved. Almost certainly the feedback is 100% positive and any real issues are likely to be binned.

As a general thought on posts regarding how something sounds, no matter where, show/friends/dealer/home I tend to take nearly all of them with a large does of skepticism. At RMAF 2008 I helped a buddy and manned one of the rooms. It had the large Analysis Audio speakers, a pair of Specton amps in mono, a ModWright pre and my tubed squeezbox as a source. We were using some of the Kaplan Cable power cords, Synergistic Research IC's and some horrifyingly expensive speaker cables though I can't remember the brand at the moment and we had a fair amount of room treatments.

Though I knew that folks perceive things differently, sitting in that room for three days and observing/discussing/listening to peoples thoughts really drove home how different we hear. I had one guy sit for 20 seconds and leave saying "not working for me" to a guy who must have spent 2-3 hours in there over the course of the weekend saying how wonderful everything was. And of course pretty much everything in between. Some loved the sound, some hated it. The end result for me was I treat much of what is written about something as rubbish unless I have learned that the writer's observations tend to align with mine, base upon other things they have written about and that I've heard.

And there is my 0.12 worth.

mike

[Emil]

Anyone know what manufactures are paying to have a circle over at AC?

[Bigfish8]

Anyone know what manufactures are paying to have a circle over at AC?

Emil:

Most of the manufacturers that pay have their on site at AC. 

Ken     

[zybar]

While I can see the idea of not allowing people to crap in a vendors sandbox it unfortunately leads to exactly what is being discussed here. Personally I just don't post in almost any of the AC vendor areas, it's not worth the BS involved. Almost certainly the feedback is 100% positive and any real issues are likely to be binned.

As a general thought on posts regarding how something sounds, no matter where, show/friends/dealer/home I tend to take nearly all of them with a large does of skepticism. At RMAF 2008 I helped a buddy and manned one of the rooms. It had the large Analysis Audio speakers, a pair of Specton amps in mono, a ModWright pre and my tubed squeezbox as a source. We were using some of the Kaplan Cable power cords, Synergistic Research IC's and some horrifyingly expensive speaker cables though I can't remember the brand at the moment and we had a fair amount of room treatments.

Though I knew that folks perceive things differently, sitting in that room for three days and observing/discussing/listening to peoples thoughts really drove home how different we hear. I had one guy sit for 20 seconds and leave saying "not working for me" to a guy who must have spent 2-3 hours in there over the course of the weekend saying how wonderful everything was. And of course pretty much everything in between. Some loved the sound, some hated it. The end result for me was I treat much of what is written about something as rubbish unless I have learned that the writer's observations tend to align with mine, base upon other things they have written about and that I've heard.

And there is my 0.12 worth.

mike

What he said.  +1

That's why I miss Audio Central.  That was the place you could challenge the blind followers or get a less unbiased viewpoint.

George

[pmkap]

Actually, one of the best sounds at RMAF 09' was the sound of Mike Galusha's mancave with Gedde's Abbeys powered by his Mac 275.
I spent time in a room with $37k monster speakers, Fertin fieid coil drivers complemented by beryllium mids/tweets. Just horrible; a VOT sound done bad. I sat there thinking that if that was the sound they were seeking, big, tonal and dynamic, they'd be far better served by Mike's Abbeys. And how did they seek to improve the sound of their room, by adjusting the VTA....

You just cant make this stuff up.

-Paul

[Scott F.]

Actually, one of the best sounds at RMAF 09' was the sound of Mike Galusha's mancave with Gedde's Abbeys powered by his Mac 275.

I agree completely. Mike's system sounded awesome. Sort of knowing the sound of the SP speakers, I was expecting a similar sound with the Gedde's waveguide. Boy was that assumption wrong 

[TomS]

Actually, one of the best sounds at RMAF 09' was the sound of Mike Galusha's mancave with Gedde's Abbeys powered by his Mac 275.

I agree completely. Mike's system sounded awesome. Sort of knowing the sound of the SP speakers, I was expecting a similar sound with the Gedde's waveguide. Boy was that assumption wrong 

I agree they are surprisingly different which I wasn't expecting at all, but both are tremendous speakers.  Wish I could have made to to Mike's this time to hear what mine are capable of as mine aren't quite there yet.  I had a great session with the new NYAR 2009 disc last night though.  Big thanks to Chris and the NY ravers, great selections!

[lonewolfny42]

Many of the AC manufacturers rooms did sound good....but they still don't get the coverage that the "Big" boys get....not until they make big waves.

The "name brands" still hold forth....and do pay for bigger ads...

[Bob in St. Louis]

I was disappointed to see the lack of information about a fellow STL guy (Chris Hoff of BPT). 
His system looked pretty neat, but only a picture was shown. No comments or reviews.

Bob

[Carlman]

I understand we're allowed (encouraged even?) to say stuff like this on AN, so I have a little observation-

Mike, your post is thoughtful, intelligent and respectful, while making a critical observation. That is allowed at AN. Personal insults, or things that make others uncomfortable is not. Thanks for asking.

You're all right but just a couple of clarifications..
1, I'd like AN to be more about actual observations, whatever they are.  Honesty yields predictability.  We can all learn to understand each other's preferences if you're just honest about what you hear.  It's great to read about what you heard and how you heard it.  Why did you feel compelled to write about it?

2, It's not about AC.  In this case I understand what you're talking about and is exactly why AN has no manufacturer circles.. When I was admin of 2-channel I generally let anything fly but then I noticed myself getting into the 'don't upset the manufacturers' mindset.. and 'say it nicely'.. and found it was a sort-of censorship.  It's a tough line to manage.. and is a large reason as to why I created AN.

We do have sponsors here.  But they're companies run by business men who aren't going to freak out at every negative review.  John at Black Sand was our first sponsor and I've developed a great relationship with him.. but if his cable doesn't come out on top, I'm still going to say it inthe post-meet write-up.  One time I warned him about it... told him "John, I don't know about this shoot-out.. your cable's not looking good against xyz.."  He just laughed and said 'whatever'. It made me realize he's been around enough to know that every situation is different... and is confident his cable has enough of a reputation to take a hit now and again...  That's the kind of professionalism we have with all of our sponsors so I don't have to worry about stepping on toes down the road.

Everything is above board here.  Be honest, be respectful.. and of course, have fun.

-C

[Carlman]

Many of the AC manufacturers rooms did sound good....but they still don't get the coverage that the "Big" boys get....not until they make big waves.

The "name brands" still hold forth....and do pay for bigger ads...

To that point.. I think Audiogon is owned by Stereophile now.. so, that may bias their coverage a bit...

-C