AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Speakers => Topic started by: Nick B on October 14, 2019, 02:59:41 PM

Title: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on October 14, 2019, 02:59:41 PM
I’ve had my KEF LS 50s for maybe a year and it’s a fine speaker. It can handle high volume and is overall quite musical. I’ve been thinking of either adding 2 subs or getting a different speaker altogether.  If I use subs, then we’re talking AC outlets and more connecting wire or wireless transmitters. Seems I have enough wires visible already in my living room. There’s also a bit of harshness sometimes on violins, trumpets and vocals, especially female. I’m not sure it’s the LS 50s or something else. Some of the recordings are on good labels.

As to new speakers, I’ve been reading many reviews, searching on YouTube etc. The Fritz speaker comes up and gets excellent reviews. The bass response is down to 37 Hz and that’s enough for me. Each cabinet weighs only 30 lbs.

The other interesting speaker is the Ohm Walsh 2000. It’s a floorstander weighing in at 53 lbs each and measures about 10”x10”x40. It has a driver that fires down and a tweeter that fires slightly up. Bass response is down to 32 hz. It’s interesting because I had the omnidirectional Shahinian Diapasons years ago. There’s not enough info and the reviews aren’t as detailed as I’d like on the Ohms. My concerns are it’s 23 lbs heavier than the Fritz and I wonder if it can match the Fritz as to retrieval of information and musicality. Ohm is located in Brooklyn.
Has anyone heard the Ohm 2000s? Comments are welcome. Budget is about $3,000.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Folsom on October 14, 2019, 03:23:34 PM
More importantly let's talk about what kind of sound you want. That's where to start.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: S Clark on October 14, 2019, 03:25:33 PM
It's been nearly forever ago that I first heard the Ohm A and Ohm F speakers and loved them- but that was 41years ago.  I heard the Fritz 7 about seven or eight years ago at a RMAF.  They were nearly universally loved... by every one but me.  Nothing wrong with them, but for me, nothing stood out.  I think Charles thinks highly of them. 
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on October 14, 2019, 04:25:12 PM
More importantly let's talk about what kind of sound you want. That's where to start.

Per your request  :thumb:

Very good at detail retrieval
Tight, defined bass into the 30s (That’s all I need)
Musical, not etched
Able to handle/move the speakers pretty much without assistance (I live alone in a retirement community)
Reasonably small footprint
Reasonably nice looking speakers (unlike my SP Techs)
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on October 14, 2019, 04:41:01 PM
It's been nearly forever ago that I first heard the Ohm A and Ohm F speakers and loved them- but that was 41years ago.  I heard the Fritz 7 about seven or eight years ago at a RMAF.  They were nearly universally loved... by every one but me.  Nothing wrong with them, but for me, nothing stood out.  I think Charles thinks highly of them.

I read a few comments about the Ohm F of years ago and the comments were quite favorable. The Fritz model that I’m speaking of has probably come out within the last two years. If I recall correctly, the previous model(s) had a different tweeter and were maybe a bit thin at times. The current Fritz has the 7” Revelator midrange/woofer from Scanspeak. I’ve read favorable comments about it. The current tweeter is beryliium and I know little about it. Yes, Charles likes it. I recall there were some favorable comments about Nolas, but they didn’t work in my room and my audio buddy agreed.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on October 14, 2019, 05:28:00 PM
Nick

If your interest is in the Revelator woofer you have two choices in Fritz's lineup that are basically the same speaker with that driver in the same cabinet with the difference being either the Be tweeter or the Scan Speak Illuminator tweeter with the changes to the crossover changing the tweeter would require.  If you have a genuine interest in Fritz's speakers it is well worth it to give him a call and just talk to him but make your you set aside time because he loves to talk audio and gear of all types.  I have had a pair of Carrera Be's in house for just under a month and they work for me but the other option may work better for you.  He will be happy to let you try a pair for 30 days and if you don't like them then just pay the return shipping. Another option if you are trying to avoid subs is the Buchardt S-400.  The bass response out of that little box was truly amazing in my demo of them.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Folsom on October 14, 2019, 05:38:22 PM
Welllll

I'm thinking these.  (http://www.bambergaudio.com/products/series2/2tmm.php)

They aren't super heavy. You don't need subwoofers. They're made to be toe-tappers. And yet he's never made anything that isn't detailed. Bamberg is very smart guy, but seems to be able to have high levels of emotion attached.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on October 14, 2019, 07:02:07 PM
Welllll

I'm thinking these.  (http://www.bambergaudio.com/products/series2/2tmm.php)

They aren't super heavy. You don't need subwoofers. They're made to be toe-tappers. And yet he's never made anything that isn't detailed. Bamberg is very smart guy, but seems to be able to have high levels of emotion attached.

I’ve done a lot of web searches, but just a handful of forums. Hadn’t heard of Bamberg before. The speaker you noted is 63 lbs....not so heavy if your young, but more than I’d like to handle at my age....  I’ll continue to review the site..Lack of reviews, customer and professional, is a concern.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on October 14, 2019, 07:18:10 PM
Jeremy,

I agree that Bamberg makes (made?) great speakers. However, I was under the impression that he stopped selling/building speakers a couple years ago.

Nick,

I got to hear Phil Bamberg’s 3 Series speakers at Axpona 2014. While really great sounding, they weren’t a fit for my listening room. I fell in love with his 5 Series speakers without even listening to them. I have wondered if Jim Salk’s Exotica 3 speakers were inspired by the Bamberg 3 or 5 speakers.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: tmazz on October 14, 2019, 08:07:53 PM
Ohm was at CAF last year and I was very underwhelmed by their demo. They were not in a room but rather set up in the weird shaped open loft space. Not sure which models they were, but the were driven by a very plain vanilla receiver (I think they were trying to prove that you didn't need expensive electronics to drive them.)  The SQ sounded more like what you would expect to hear in a consumer big box store as opposed to a high end show. They also picked source material that was very artificially spectacular and not any well recorded demo music. It seemed to me like they just did not understand the kind of things audiophiles look for and set up the kind of demo they would use to wow people at Costco.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I was not very impresses with the speaker the showed, butI have a feeling that a big part of that was the lousy setup and presentation that they did.

Ohm will be displaying at CAF again this year (which is coming up in just 3 weeks). Hopefully it will be a better demo and I can give you some more accurate feedback when I return.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on October 14, 2019, 08:59:48 PM
Jeremy,

I agree that Bamberg makes (made?) great speakers. However, I was under the impression that he stopped selling/building speakers a couple years ago.

Nick,

I got to hear Phil Bamberg’s 3 Series speakers at Axpona 2014. While really great sounding, they weren’t a fit for my listening room. I fell in love with his 5 Series speakers without even listening to them. I have wondered if Jim Salk’s Exotica 3 speakers were inspired by the Bamberg 3 or 5 speakers.

Thanks, Michael. I noted that on the Bamberg website there wasn’t a more recently dated comment/review past 2014. The Bamberg speakers are a bit too large/heavy for me and I also would have a concern about selling them.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Folsom on October 14, 2019, 09:03:02 PM
I have no idea if he's not making stuff now. He's responsive to emails is my experience. He's also very well respected by people in the industry like Danny Richie. But whatever, they're too heavy.

tmazz are you talking about Ohm speakers?
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: S Clark on October 14, 2019, 09:26:07 PM
Nick, You already have a pair of KEF's so you know the good and the bad.  There is a pair of Soundfield SAM-1 for sale at AC at a very good price.  Personally, I think AJ in FL did a much better job with his crossover than KEF did with the same driver.  Don't know what they weigh, but I've not heard a Fritz or Harbeth type speaker that comes close to the realism and soundstage of the SAM-1.   I really wish I had a place for them.  They were by far the best sound under $2500 at a Lone Star Audio Fest several years back.  I don't remember any of the issues you mentioned with your 50's, and I Danny Richie and I spent a good 45 minutes in AJ's untreated room after hours. 
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on October 14, 2019, 09:31:47 PM
Ohm was at CAF last year and I was very underwhelmed by their demo. They were not in a room but rather set up in the weird shaped open loft space. Not sure which models they were, but the were driven by a very plain vanilla receiver (I think they were trying to prove that you didn't need expensive electronics to drive them.)  The SQ sounded more like what you would expect to hear in a consumer big box store as opposed to a high end show. They also picked source material that was very artificially spectacular and not any well recorded demo music. It seemed to me like they just did not understand the kind of things audiophiles look for and set up the kind of demo they would use to wow people at Costco.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I was not very impresses with the speaker the showed, butI have a feeling that a big part of that was the lousy setup and presentation that they did.

Ohm will be displaying at CAF again this year (which is coming up in just 3 weeks). Hopefully it will be a better demo and I can give you some more accurate feedback when I return.

I appreciate your comments,..very helpful. I spoke briefly today with the Ohm owner, John. Nice guy. The Ohm 2000s got a rave review on YouTube from Z Reviews. That guy seems to know his stuff, but he often doesn’t mentioned his associated gear. So it’s wonderful that the 2000s can fill a room with sound, but as you say, what about the qualities that Audiophiles are interested in. When I listen to music, I’m always in my sweet spot in my favorite reclining chair. So I don’t really care if I’m able to get up and walk around and enjoy a wonderful presentation, because that’s never been my listening habit.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on October 14, 2019, 09:42:05 PM
@SClark

So you heard a Fritz speaker once at an audio show seven or eight years ago and not even the model under discussion and that's enough for you two make two dismissive posts about his products?  If that's all you have to go on you don't know what his speakers really sound like and certainly not the model Nick was asking about. 
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on October 14, 2019, 09:44:57 PM
Nick, You already have a pair of KEF's so you know the good and the bad.  There is a pair of Soundfield SAM-1 for sale at AC at a very good price.  Personally, I think AJ in FL did a much better job with his crossover than KEF did with the same driver.  Don't know what they weigh, but I've not heard a Fritz or Harbeth type speaker that comes close to the realism and soundstage of the SAM-1.   I really wish I had a place for them.  They were by far the best sound under $2500 at a Lone Star Audio Fest several years back.  I don't remember any of the issues you mentioned with your 50's, and I Danny Richie and I spent a good 45 minutes in AJ's untreated room after hours.

I was just on AC and found them. It’s a great price at $650 and I would have bought them immediately. But they are powered.... I like my ICE1200as amp and I’m close to reviving my vinyl setup.
The KEFs are good and my criticism is just an obvious lack of bass and some occasional harshness on violins, female vocals.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: tmazz on October 14, 2019, 10:05:47 PM
I have no idea if he's not making stuff now. He's responsive to emails is my experience. He's also very well respected by people in the industry like Danny Richie. But whatever, they're too heavy.

tmazz are you talking about Ohm speakers?

Yes, I was discussing the Ohm display at last years Capital Audio Fest. Unfortunately I did not pay much attention to which model it was since I was so unimpressed with them, but as I said I have a feeling that my impression had more to do with how they were presented than it did with what they are capable of.

However this year, since I know that Nick has an interest in them I will pay more attention at the Ohm display so I can give him so critical feedback.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on October 14, 2019, 10:06:36 PM
Nick

If your interest is in the Revelator woofer you have two choices in Fritz's lineup that are basically the same speaker with that driver in the same cabinet with the difference being either the Be tweeter or the Scan Speak Illuminator tweeter with the changes to the crossover changing the tweeter would require.  If you have a genuine interest in Fritz's speakers it is well worth it to give him a call and just talk to him but make your you set aside time because he loves to talk audio and gear of all types.  I have had a pair of Carrera Be's in house for just under a month and they work for me but the other option may work better for you.  He will be happy to let you try a pair for 30 days and if you don't like them then just pay the return shipping. Another option if you are trying to avoid subs is the Buchardt S-400.  The bass response out of that little box was truly amazing in my demo of them.

Jack,
I should’ve mentioned that I spoke with Fritz on Saturday. Very nice and helpful guy. We discussed my gear, listening habits, etc. The Revelator driver isn’t a necessity for me. I mentioned it because I’d read up on it a bit with positive comments. Interestingly enough, the Buchardt woofer is based on and supposedly an improved version of the Revelator. Fritz and I only discussed the Carrerra
BE 7 as that’s the only model I asked about. I’d get it for a good price as well.
I have looked into the Buchardt S400s a few months ago and was offered a trial. They’re in Denmark and I was very hesitant to pull the plug because of that. The 400s have a waveguide design just like my current LS 50s and my SP Tech Timepieces before that. Based on the reviews including YouTube, I’m still curious about them.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on October 14, 2019, 10:25:02 PM
Nick

I spoke to him Saturday too but only for a few minutes as he and his girlfriend were heading out to "Wine Country."  I've got the Carrera Be's playing now as I type and they have plenty of the bass response you are looking for if I turn the two Rythmik subwoofers off.  I had a small amount of top end siblance with them using the Mivera Purepower (1200AS) amp but I had it paired with the W4S STP-SE preamp which basically let's the character of the amp come through and I have found that the 1200AS based amp can be ruthless on top if the recording warrants it.  Yesterday I replaced the Mivera with the Nord (NC500) amp with the Sparkos op amp buffer board and the sibilance went away.  Since you have a tube preamp in front of your amp you would probably get the same result I got from the amp change. But if you are worried about it you could try the Rev 7 SE which substitutes the Scan Speak tweeter instead of the Be tweeter and be sure.

With the Buchardt you will be out nothing for the trial but they need a long break-in and as Srajen said in his review like to be played loud.  So you can try them both and find out.  I've also owned the Nola Boxer and the Carrera is an entirely different level of speaker.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on October 14, 2019, 11:16:32 PM
Nick

I spoke to him Saturday too but only for a few minutes as he and his girlfriend were heading out to "Wine Country."  I've got the Carrera Be's playing now as I type and they have plenty of the bass response you are looking for if I turn the two Rythmik subwoofers off.  I had a small amount of top end siblance with them using the Mivera Purepower (1200AS) amp but I had it paired with the W4S STP-SE preamp which basically let's the character of the amp come through and I have found that the 1200AS based amp can be ruthless on top if the recording warrants it.  Yesterday I replaced the Mivera with the Nord (NC500) amp with the Sparkos op amp buffer board and the sibilance went away.  Since you have a tube preamp in front of your amp you would probably get the same result I got from the amp change. But if you are worried about it you could try the Rev 7 SE which substitutes the Scan Speak tweeter instead of the Be tweeter and be sure.

With the Buchardt you will be out nothing for the trial but they need a long break-in and as Srajen said in his review like to be played loud.  So you can try them both and find out.  I've also owned the Nola Boxer and the Carrera is an entirely different level of speaker.

Hmmm...the 1200as amp you say  :roll: Sure, it could be based on your comments. I know Richidoo loved that amp when he frequented these parts. As a side note, I followed some of the Mivera saga over at AC... Too bad as he seemed like a talented designer. Jack, the amp is a variable I don’t even want to consider :( With any speaker other than the Buchardts I’d be able to tell pretty quickly. Those S 400s require lots of break in and four weeks can go by pretty quickly if so many hours are required. My Antelope Gold dac took ages to break in. I’ve received many helpful comments on this thread and will ponder for a while. 
Nick

Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: rollo on October 15, 2019, 07:42:43 AM
 As a Fritz dealer I am prejudiced about Fritz. We love them. The Carrera BE has a wonderful synergy with Audio Hungary gear. Either the A20i, A50i integrated or the APR 204 preamp and APX 200 amp..
 The tweeter of the Carrera BE is not hot or sibilant. That is caused by downstream components. The Carrera is easy to place in ones room as well. For the money hard to beat.


charles
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 11, 2019, 07:37:49 PM
I spoke with Charles recently and with Fritz again over the weekend. I decided on the Carreras today in the walnut finish. The Fritz line is well respected. Charles has experience with the Fritz and Audio Hungary combination and Jack’s comments swayed me as well. They’ll ship tomorrow and I’ll post my impressions afterwards.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on November 11, 2019, 08:06:50 PM
Excellent!

AS it happens, Fritz called me yesterday while I was too busy to chat. Then, I called him back (but he was too busy to chat), and left a message answering his question followed by my telling him I want to demo his Carreras next year once I've settled back into life in Oregon.

I'm all eyes, Nick.  :shock:
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Folsom on November 11, 2019, 08:30:28 PM
Nice, be fun to hear about them when you get them.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 11, 2019, 08:40:16 PM
Excellent!

AS it happens, Fritz called me yesterday while I was too busy to chat. Then, I called him back (but he was too busy to chat), and left a message answering his question followed by my telling him I want to demo his Carreras next year once I've settled back into life in Oregon.

I'm all eyes, Nick.  :shock:

Michael,
I think they’ll be excellent. Shipping via FedEx from No California to So Utah.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on November 11, 2019, 08:47:03 PM
Congrats Nick, I think you'll love them and the more hours on them the better.  Mine are at around 400+ hours and they have really opened up.  I moved them yesterday from the large Family Room into the more appropriately sized dedicated room in place of the Otello's.  They really sing with with BHK tubed preamp and hybrid amp.  I've got the Rythmik F12's crossed at 45 hz and connected speaker level to catch that last bit of the bottom end though they don't really need them. 
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 11, 2019, 09:05:30 PM
Congrats Nick, I think you'll love them and the more hours on them the better.  Mine are at around 400+ hours and they have really opened up.  I moved them yesterday from the large Family Room into the more appropriately sized dedicated room in place of the Otello's.  They really sing with with BHK tubed preamp and hybrid amp.  I've got the Rythmik F12's crossed at 45 hz and connected speaker level to catch that last bit of the bottom end though they don't really need them.

Thanks, Jack. Fritz was going to put 100 hours on them for me, but getting them now works better for me. Have family coming here for Thanksgiving and then traveling to So California for Christmas. Fritz reminded me about your comments regarding my 1200as2 amp and I read your comments again. So I might be thinking about an amp...or integrated...as well.
You are digging deep with those Rythmiks  :thumb:
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on November 11, 2019, 09:32:37 PM
Nick

You might be fine with the 1200as amp since you have two tubed components in front of it.  I was using the Mivera with both a SS DAC and preamp.  The Audia Flight integrated has that left of neutral Luxman style sound so a better fit at least to me.  What might work for not a lot is an Odyssey Khartago which is also left of neutral. Problem with that is that unless one shows up used Klaus is months behind.  Another option though might be the AVA SET 120 and you have a 30 day trial period.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 11, 2019, 10:08:09 PM
Nick

You might be fine with the 1200as amp since you have two tubed components in front of it.  I was using the Mivera with both a SS DAC and preamp.  The Audia Flight integrated has that left of neutral Luxman style sound so a better fit at least to me.  What might work for not a lot is an Odyssey Khartago which is also left of neutral. Problem with that is that unless one shows up used Klaus is months behind.  Another option though might be the AVA SET 120 and you have a 30 day trial period.

Jack,
I’m guessing that I’ll have a pretty good idea on the Fritzes after 50 hours. It’s also nice to have the power of that ICE amp. I’ve followed Klaus and Frank via the AC forum. The first thing about an AVA amp is would it resolve well enough? As to Klaus being way behind....yes, I’ve heard. I’m actually curious about an Audio Hungary amp or integrated and just sent them an email. It’s been over 30 years since I’ve owned a tube amp and the only ones were the VAC 90 monos and the Roger Mojeski RM 9. I do remember nearly frying a tube on the VAC as it was manual biasing. But it survived  :duh
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on November 11, 2019, 11:18:39 PM
Nick

As it turns out the RM-9 might be a perfect amp for the Carrera's but they are no longer. An alternative might be the Rogue ST-100.  I had one and it was a great sounding amp but with the temperatures in Florida I couldn't tolerate the heat it put out. I have an RM-10 here which outputs 35 wpc which I haven't tried so I don't know if that is enough power or not.  As to the AVA SET series amps you might want to check with Larry on AC as he has tried both the 120 and 400 with his Maggies and see what he thinks.  Frank and two reviewers from Audiophillia are using the SET amps with the Alta Audio Celesta FRM monitors which are among the most resolving on the market with stellar results.  My personal opinion is that unless you are listening to the likes of Dianna Krall, Anne Bisson, etc. at lower volumes then the Carrera's need power.  It's kind of like the Spatial's.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 11, 2019, 11:35:29 PM
Nick

As it turns out the RM-9 might be a perfect amp for the Carrera's but they are no longer. An alternative might be the Rogue ST-100.  I had one and it was a great sounding amp but with the temperatures in Florida I couldn't tolerate the heat it put out. I have an RM-10 here which outputs 35 wpc which I haven't tried so I don't know if that is enough power or not.  As to the AVA SET series amps you might want to check with Larry on AC as he has tried both the 120 and 400 with his Maggies and see what he thinks.  Frank and two reviewers from Audiophillia are using the SET amps with the Alta Audio Celesta FRM monitors which are among the most resolving on the market with stellar results.  My personal opinion is that unless you are listening to the likes of Dianna Krall, Anne Bisson, etc. at lower volumes then the Carrera's need power.  It's kind of like the Spatial's.

Thanks, Jack. I’ll check those out. I may be a little biased against Frank as he refused to put IEC connectors in his products for the longest time. That’s the main reason I didn’t buy one of his amps years ago.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: rollo on November 12, 2019, 09:13:23 AM
   Congrats on purchase. Guys lest you forget I am a Fritz dealer. Anyway the Audio Hungary APX 200 tubed Amp will make ya cry with the Carrera. Perfect match especially with AH preamp which you own. Not a fan of AVA . Find them thin and bright. AS good as a class "D" amp can be and I own a great one [ Arion HS 500] the tubed Amp is the way to go with Carrera.


charles
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 12, 2019, 02:06:23 PM
   Congrats on purchase. Guys lest you forget I am a Fritz dealer. Anyway the Audio Hungary APX 200 tubed Amp will make ya cry with the Carrera. Perfect match especially with AH preamp which you own. Not a fan of AVA . Find them thin and bright. AS good as a class "D" amp can be and I own a great one [ Arion HS 500] the tubed Amp is the way to go with Carrera.


charles

Thanks for your input, Charles. It’s always appreciated.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on November 13, 2019, 08:47:11 PM
As an experiment while the Carrera's are in the Main dedicated listening room, 15' x 19' x 10',  I decided to try them with a tube amp and started with my physically smallest and lowest powered, the Music Reference RM-10 that I have owned for almost 20 years.  Gear may come and go but it is one piece that will never leave.  Roger rates it's output from (4) EL-84 tubes at 35 wpc and as I have never seen a review with a lab test we will assume Roger is accurate.  As it is small and light enough I turned off the power to the BHK 250 and after it cooled down I placed a microfiber towel on top it and sat the RM-10 on top of the BHK.  After swapping the connections to the preamp I inserted a pair of TWL speaker cables and the high level connections to the Rythmik subs. As it hadn't been used for almost a year I let it warm up checked the bias, still good, and started up the music.  I was able to easily get to 90 db, per RS meter, with the amp showing no sign of strain. And Charles is right they do sound better with the tubed RM-10 and the tubed BHK preamp than they did with even the Audia Flight integrated.  I've got one other tube amp I may try it with, the Mystere (upscaled Primaluna made in the Melody factory) that uses EL-34's for 40 wpc. Only thing is with it is that at just under 50 pounds it may be a stretch sitting it on top of the BHK and at 90 lbs the BHK is a bitch to move out of the way.  So if your room's not to big or you don't play at extreme levels 30-40 got watts of tube power should be good.  The only thing I saw of interest at a reasonable price if you don't need to buy new is a mint condition AVA Ultravalve for $1100 on AC.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=166130.0
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 13, 2019, 09:26:56 PM
As an experiment while the Carrera's are in the Main dedicated listening room, 15' x 19' x 10',  I decided to try them with a tube amp and started with my physically smallest and lowest powered, the Music Reference RM-10 that I have owned for almost 20 years.  Gear may come and go but it is one piece that will never leave.  Roger rates it's output from (4) EL-84 tubes at 35 wpc and as I have never seen a review with a lab test we will assume Roger is accurate.  As it is small and light enough I turned off the power to the BHK 250 and after it cooled down I placed a microfiber towel on top it and sat the RM-10 on top of the BHK.  After swapping the connections to the preamp I inserted a pair of TWL speaker cables and the high level connections to the Rythmik subs. As it hadn't been used for almost a year I let it warm up checked the bias, still good, and started up the music.  I was able to easily get to 90 db, per RS meter, with the amp showing no sign of strain. And Charles is right they do sound better with the tubed RM-10 and the tubed BHK preamp than they did with even the Audia Flight integrated.  I've got one other tube amp I may try it with, the Mystere (upscaled Primaluna made in the Melody factory) that uses EL-34's for 40 wpc. Only is with it is that at just under 50 pounds it may be a stretch sitting it on top of the BHK and at 90 lbs the BHK is a bitch to move out of the way.  So if your room's not to big or you don't play at extreme levels 30-40 got watts of tube power should be good.  The only thing I saw of interest at a reasonable price if you don't need to buy new is a mint condition AVA Ultravalve for $1100 on AC.

Jack,
I got a FedEx text today and Fritz called as well that the Carreras are going to be here tomorrow. That’s amazing customer service and Fritz said there are about 50 hours on them. I’ll be quite curious playing them with my ICE amp. I expect a wonderful presentation with at least some of that harshness I’ve complained about being gone. I continue to be curious what a tubed amp would sound like as well. Glad you’re still happy with that RM-10.
I play loud as well in the >85 db range and the room is 17’x26’x10’. I looked at the AVA on Frank’s site and the retail is $1,600. I’d like to put an additional 50 hours on the Carreras and then think more about a different amp.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on November 13, 2019, 10:25:05 PM
According to Fritz my pair had considerably more hours than that at his house and the shop but I gave them another 150 hours so I think you may need to count on more than 50 more hours for that Revelator woofer to open up. With the tube gear in front of it you may end up happy with the IcePower amp so don't rush.  Don't have any idea how much the AH amp Charles is recommending cost but I do know the Rogue ST-100 would be more than enough power and with the climate where you live you won't have the heat issues I had in an enclosed room in Florida plus the Rogue allows for power tube rolling flexibility as I tried KT-120's, KT-88's and KT-77's.  Plus if there are service issues Mark and his people in Pa. are easy to work with and a phone call away. I picked up a mint used one and when I sold it three months later I didn't lose a dime.  I actually preferred the sound with the KT-77's into the Otello's.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: rollo on November 14, 2019, 06:54:40 AM
  Nick 250 hours of break in to get it all. The Audio Hungary APX 200 is 100W/ch. Uses NOS tubes. Matches with the AH preamp and has a perfect synergy with Fritz speakers.
  My advice is to break in the speaker with the amp you have now. After 250 hours try another.
charles
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 14, 2019, 09:01:02 AM
According to Fritz my pair had considerably more hours than that at his house and the shop but I gave them another 150 hours so I think you may need to count on more than 50 more hours for that Revelator woofer to open up. With the tube gear in front of it you may end up happy with the IcePower amp so don't rush.  Don't have any idea how much the AH amp Charles is recommending cost but I do know the Rogue ST-100 would be more than enough power and with the climate where you live you won't have the heat issues I had in an enclosed room in Florida plus the Rogue allows for power tube rolling flexibility as I tried KT-120's, KT-88's and KT-77's.  Plus if there are service issues Mark and his people in Pa. are easy to work with and a phone call away. I picked up a mint used one and when I sold it three months later I didn't lose a dime.  I actually preferred the sound with the KT-77's into the Otello's.

I believe the AH amp retails for $4,000 and the Rogue $3,500. As to repairs for the AH stuff, I don’t know who would handle that. I sent AH an email with questions about the amp and preamp, but haven’t heard back.
I’m not as concerned about the woofer performance as I am about the harshness problem. I’ll play Jennifer Warnes “Way Down Deep” to test the bass performance.
The Carreras will arrive at the end of today.

Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: rollo on November 14, 2019, 10:07:47 AM
According to Fritz my pair had considerably more hours than that at his house and the shop but I gave them another 150 hours so I think you may need to count on more than 50 more hours for that Revelator woofer to open up. With the tube gear in front of it you may end up happy with the IcePower amp so don't rush.  Don't have any idea how much the AH amp Charles is recommending cost but I do know the Rogue ST-100 would be more than enough power and with the climate where you live you won't have the heat issues I had in an enclosed room in Florida plus the Rogue allows for power tube rolling flexibility as I tried KT-120's, KT-88's and KT-77's.  Plus if there are service issues Mark and his people in Pa. are easy to work with and a phone call away. I picked up a mint used one and when I sold it three months later I didn't lose a dime.  I actually preferred the sound with the KT-77's into the Otello's.


   No need to worry about repairs for AH as they are built like a tank. If ever needed we have authorized repair in USA. To date ZERO issues. AN discount as well.  As I mentioned break it in first. The top end which is important to you and I will take some time.

charles

I believe the AH amp retails for $4,000 and the Rogue $3,500. As to repairs for the AH stuff, I don’t know who would handle that. I sent AH an email with questions about the amp and preamp, but haven’t heard back.
I’m not as concerned about the woofer performance as I am about the harshness problem. I’ll play Jennifer Warnes “Way Down Deep” to test the bass performance.
The Carreras will arrive at the end of today.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 14, 2019, 12:07:05 PM
  Nick 250 hours of break in to get it all. The Audio Hungary APX 200 is 100W/ch. Uses NOS tubes. Matches with the AH preamp and has a perfect synergy with Fritz speakers.
  My advice is to break in the speaker with the amp you have now. After 250 hours try another.
charles

Charles,
You and Jack both like over 200 hours for break in. I’ll put as many hours on them as I can before my Thanksgiving guests arrive. I’m intrigued by that AH amp and hopefully they’ll get back to me regarding my email. Per my reading, the newer version of the amp has different circuitry regarding the bias.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 14, 2019, 12:13:00 PM
  Nick 250 hours of break in to get it all. The Audio Hungary APX 200 is 100W/ch. Uses NOS tubes. Matches with the AH preamp and has a perfect synergy with Fritz speakers.
  My advice is to break in the speaker with the amp you have now. After 250 hours try another.
charles

Charles,
You and Jack both like over 200 hours for break in. I’ll put as many hours on them as I can before my Thanksgiving guests arrive. I’m intrigued by that AH amp and hopefully they’ll get back to me regarding my email. Per my reading, the newer version of the amp has different circuitry regarding the bias.
Nick

Charles,
Just returned home and posted, then saw your post. Zero warranty issues is good  :thumb: The Carreras have arrived and will hook them up now. I was fortunate that I was home. Timing is everything 😀
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on November 14, 2019, 06:38:08 PM
Nick

Any first impressions as to system balance with your current setup?
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 14, 2019, 11:55:46 PM
Nick

Any first impressions as to system balance with your current setup?

Jack,
Initial impressions earlier today was some boomy bass and virtually the same harshness on some violins, trumpets, female voices etc. I didn’t think it was the speaker, rather that it was room interactions. Played them at low/medium volume while I was out, then much higher volume in the evening. The Carreras easily played loud and handled being in the large, open space floor plan.
Quite by accident, I turned up the somewhat and occasionally noisy pot on my AH preamp and noticed hiss and hum from each driver. This is likely contributing to that harshness when I crank ‘em up.
As I played more tunes, I found some excellent recordings and the Carreras were doing some outstanding things. They were excellent in detail retrieval, imaging, better realism of instruments like piano, drums, guitar. Some of the bass reproduction was excellent with no hint of boomy bass. My guess is that certain, low frequencies interact with the room. Now I’ve never used any room treatments in my current or previous homes. I sent Dave some room pics some months ago and he showed Greg who produces room treatments. It seems I have a problem space and that’s the way it is. I could put drapes along the windows on one side,etc.... Don't really want to get into that. I wonder if Roon has software so I could use a mic...
I haven’t played with speaker placement at all and will work on that tomorrow. As to what’s causing the noise at higher volume, I have no idea. I’m using Dave’s Uber and one of his treated wall outlets.
It’s been fun listening today and there’s way more performance to be had. The Carreras seem quite superior to the the KEF LS 50s, but I never added subs, so that unidriver was likely working too hard.
Been a long day and I’m off to bed.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: rollo on November 17, 2019, 08:16:28 AM
 Cool and congrats.  Check your connections. Enjoy. Place your speakers as wide apart as you can until you loose the center image. Then move back until you get center, done. Then try different distance from front wall, done. Then toe in or not done. Either decouple of spike stands. Try both ways makes a big difference. Then pour a drink and be very happy. No room treatments until broken in and properly placed first.


charles
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 17, 2019, 08:30:25 AM
Cool and congrats.  Check your connections. Enjoy. Place your speakers as wide apart as you can until you loose the center image. Then move back until you get center, done. Then try different distance from front wall, done. Then toe in or not done. Either decouple of spike stands. Try both ways makes a big difference. Then pour a drink and be very happy. No room treatments until broken in and properly placed first.


charles

I moved them back a little more from the front wall last night. Will play more with positioning tonight. Played Fanfare and 1812 last night. Amazing bass for such a small speaker  :thumb:
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 17, 2019, 02:55:46 PM
Nick, You already have a pair of KEF's so you know the good and the bad.  There is a pair of Soundfield SAM-1 for sale at AC at a very good price.  Personally, I think AJ in FL did a much better job with his crossover than KEF did with the same driver.  Don't know what they weigh, but I've not heard a Fritz or Harbeth type speaker that comes close to the realism and soundstage of the SAM-1.   I really wish I had a place for them.  They were by far the best sound under $2500 at a Lone Star Audio Fest several years back.  I don't remember any of the issues you mentioned with your 50's, and I Danny Richie and I spent a good 45 minutes in AJ's untreated room after hours.

I was just on AC and found them. It’s a great price at $650 and I would have bought them immediately. But they are powered.... I like my ICE1200as amp and I’m close to reviving my vinyl setup.
The KEFs are good and my criticism is just an obvious lack of bass and some occasional harshness on violins, female vocals.
i've never found the kef ls50's to be harsh.  could be those ice amps you like so much...  ;)  i heard the sam-1's at a caf a few years back, and they were outstanding, imo.

re: speakers, you might want to check these out:
https://www.annunci.net/firenze/audio-tv-video/piega-coax-102-speakers-2215971 (https://www.annunci.net/firenze/audio-tv-video/piega-coax-102-speakers-2215971)
of course, being rare in the usa, you may have to wait awhile to find them.

i have a pair of these; quite outstanding.  retailed for just north of $9k when new; rare as hen's teeth, but if a pair does come up, it will certainly be in your price range.  and, tho floorstanders, they don't take up much room...
http://www.hifido.co.jp/sold/19-20198-02680-00.html (http://www.hifido.co.jp/sold/19-20198-02680-00.html)

doug s.
(ps - i just noticed after i posted, that you already purchased something else - enjoy!)

Doug,
I am not sure why the harshness exists even with the new Carreras. It certainly could be that new ICE amp that I have, but I have no spare amps laying around to test if that is the case. That’s why I am considering a tube amp or tube integrated. It’s been 30 years since I’ve had a tube amp. As I still want to revive my turntable, etc. I need a preamp or integrated.
I believe you have mentioned the Piegas before and I’ve heard about them from other sources as well. The floor standing unit looks quite nice and unique, but I sure wouldn’t want to tip it over to attach the speaker cables. It reminds me of the hassle that I had with my Shahinian diapason speakers and accessing those binding posts. It’s one of the reasons that I got rid of the diapason’s. Even though the footprint is much larger than I would really want, I was considering the Philharmonic 3s made by Dennis Murphy. But I read the Dennis has health issues and he is getting out of the speaker building business. Jim Salk is helping to finish the outstanding orders.
So far, I am quite happy with the Carreras. These tiny tots....as I like to call them...are quite good. I continued to put hours on them and have a 30 day trial. Builder/owner Fritz is great to deal with.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 17, 2019, 04:54:39 PM
i've never found the kef ls50's to be harsh.  could be those ice amps you like so much...  ;)  i heard the sam-1's at a caf a few years back, and they were outstanding, imo.

re: speakers, you might want to check these out:
https://www.annunci.net/firenze/audio-tv-video/piega-coax-102-speakers-2215971 (https://www.annunci.net/firenze/audio-tv-video/piega-coax-102-speakers-2215971)
of course, being rare in the usa, you may have to wait awhile to find them.

i have a pair of these; quite outstanding.  retailed for just north of $9k when new; rare as hen's teeth, but if a pair does come up, it will certainly be in your price range.  and, tho floorstanders, they don't take up much room...
http://www.hifido.co.jp/sold/19-20198-02680-00.html (http://www.hifido.co.jp/sold/19-20198-02680-00.html)

doug s.
(ps - i just noticed after i posted, that you already purchased something else - enjoy!)

Doug,
I am not sure why the harshness exists even with the new Carreras. It certainly could be that new ICE amp that I have, but I have no spare amps laying around to test if that is the case. That’s why I am considering a tube amp or tube integrated. It’s been 30 years since I’ve had a tube amp. As I still want to revive my turntable, etc. I need a preamp or integrated.
I believe you have mentioned the Piegas before and I’ve heard about them from other sources as well. The floor standing unit looks quite nice and unique, but I sure wouldn’t want to tip it over to attach the speaker cables. It reminds me of the hassle that I had with my Shahinian diapason speakers and accessing those binding posts. It’s one of the reasons that I got rid of the diapason’s. Even though the footprint is much larger than I would really want, I was considering the Philharmonic 3s made by Dennis Murphy. But I read the Dennis has health issues and he is getting out of the speaker building business. Jim Salk is helping to finish the outstanding orders.
So far, I am quite happy with the Carreras. These tiny tots....as I like to call them...are quite good. I continued to put hours on them and have a 30 day trial. Builder/owner Fritz is great to deal with.
Nick
hi nick,

you could always try a tube buffer between your preamp and amp.  an inexpensive solution if it works.  personally, i couldn't imagine not having a tube preamp in my main rig, regardless of amp. but you already have a tube preamp, no?  so i'd say again - it's the ice amp - even if s/s, try an amp that isn't class-d.

re tube preamps, i'm currently doing without, as my melos ma333r awaits repair.  it sounded absolutely fantastic after the last mods were done, but the balance control still isn't right, so i sent it back to mark porzilli to fix, but business and health issues have delayed my getting it back.  maybe by x-mas?  i'm seriously considering buying another preamp.  first sound (used) and the new dave berning designed microzotl preamp are on the shortlist.

re: the phil-3's - absolutely phenomenal speakers; 2nd best sound at the caf a few years back, only bettered, imo, by the horning euphrodite's.  absolutely crushed the 2.5 times expensive salk soundscapes.  but i thought you didn't want big heavy speakers in your room? the phil 3's are one of the very few rare products that are a bargain even when purchased new.   ;)  no offense, nick, but getting a pair of the carrerra's when you were considering the phil 3's, which are are the same price, was not the best move, imo...

doug s.

Hi Doug,
Sorry to hear about your Melos preamp. I know how much you like that piece. As you mentioned two preamps you’re considering, I did a search on the First Sound. Very interesting and how it initially was a passive and then the active was developed. As to the Dave Berning designed Microzotl, I had heard of it from the guy who bought my Nola speakers. He had a group of audio buddies and they discussed it and other products in very technical terms. I was kindly invited to join their discussion group. But the scope was far beyond my basic technical knowledge.
As to those Phil 3s, it would have been a very long shot if I had purchased them. The performance to price ratio made it somewhat intriguing. I would have had to move furniture etc to maybe get it to work. My little Carrerras are quite good.
As I mentioned in another post, I’ll look at dsp as a possible solution. As to tube buffers, I’ve never used one and thought they were intended for impedance issues. I don’t recall the impedance numbers on my amp and pre, but I did get those values previously and they were compatible.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 17, 2019, 10:58:43 PM
Hi Doug,
Sorry to hear about your Melos preamp. I know how much you like that piece. As you mentioned two preamps you’re considering, I did a search on the First Sound. Very interesting and how it initially was a passive and then the active was developed. As to the Dave Berning designed Microzotl, I had heard of it from the guy who bought my Nola speakers. He had a group of audio buddies and they discussed it and other products in very technical terms. I was kindly invited to join their discussion group. But the scope was far beyond my basic technical knowledge.
As to those Phil 3s, it would have been a very long shot if I had purchased them. The performance to price ratio made it somewhat intriguing. I would have had to move furniture etc to maybe get it to work. My little Carrerras are quite good.
As I mentioned in another post, I’ll look at dsp as a possible solution. As to tube buffers, I’ve never used one and thought they were intended for impedance issues. I don’t recall the impedance numbers on my amp and pre, but I did get those values previously and they were compatible.
Nick
hi nick,

i'm glad you're liking the carrerra's.  i guess i should have done research on the phil-3's; it seems that if you haven't already ordered a pair, you're s.o.l., as dennis murphy's declining health means he's closed up shop.  which is a pity - everything he made was as good as anything at at least 3 times the asking price.  looks like used will be the only way to nab a pair of any of his offerings.  it seems salk may be picking up his offerings, but i am certain the price will be taking a significant hike upwards.

re: tube buffers, yes, they're helpful for impedance matching, but they also will ameliorate harshness, and if they're good ones, they will do it w/o any negative sonic penalties. i have the ase z-man, and a kailin mu-1 that are both excellent. (i never liked the musical fidelity offering, as it was veiled, imo.) in fact, just today, i pulled the trigger on another one - the yaqin sd-cd3 - for $70 shipped, w/a pair of vintage baldwin 6sn7's, i couldn't resist.  it's supposed to be a good one, w/some folks actually upgrading the caps to good effect.

while i've always appreciated dsp for flattening frequency response, from what you're describing, i think a change in amplification is in order.

good listening!

doug s.

Thanks, Doug. I’ll read up on buffers tonight. That would be a simple way to proceed. As I’d prefer not to buy a buffer just to try this out, if anyone has a spare buffer and one pair of ic’s to lend me,  I’d be most appreciative. Pls send me a PM.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: rollo on November 18, 2019, 09:37:52 AM
  Give it time. Not a fan of ICE amps for top end reproduction. I found them to be bright, hard and over detailed. Especially if only source is digital. Maybe we can get you a tubed amp to check out after you have 200 hours on the speakers.

charles
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on November 18, 2019, 07:10:00 PM
Nick

Might want to take a look at the Belles Aria Integrated amp.  It is on the warmer side of neutral like all of Dave's gear and Fritz is a Belles fan.  The Aria comes up used fairly regularly but if not you should be able to find a dealer with some wiggle room like Audiowaves in Ca. I thought about picking one up used to try but my Audia Flight has a similar signature and all of the same features so no need.  One may very well pop up on the used market by the time your break-in is finished.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 19, 2019, 12:14:18 AM
Thanks, Doug. I’ll read up on buffers tonight. That would be a simple way to proceed. As I’d prefer not to buy a buffer just to try this out, if anyone has a spare buffer and one pair of ic’s to lend me,  I’d be most appreciative. Pls send me a PM.
Nick
hi nick,

you're using a tubed preamp, correct?  i realized this after i'd made my first posting re: buffers.  if this is the case, i am not sure how much you'd be helped w/a buffer, if your preamp outs are going directly into your amp.  unless a particular source is harsh, while others are not?  then, a buffer after that source, and into your preamp might help. i have used buffers like this into a tubed preamp. 

seriously, tho, i think you might be better off trying another amp.  i have an older electrocompaniet aw75dmb i could lend you, but it would likely be costly to ship both ways.  (i have a pair, actually.)  ec amps are really nice, imo; especially for s/s.  the aw75dmb would be plenty for your carrerra's, 75w into 8 ohms; 150 into 4 ohms; stable with loads <1 ohm; current rating 80A.  yes, that's 80 amps.

doug s.

Doug,
I may take you up on your kind offer. As I have company coming for Thanksgiving...and I’m busy cleaning/preparing, it would be after turkey day. I played with the Roon dsp tonight and it was quite interesting working with the 5 band eq and trying multiple settings. There are also settings for speaker placement. I need to read up on all the available functions. The Roon dsp received a preliminary nod of approval from Hans Beekhuzen on his YouTube channel. He’s quite interesting to watch.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 19, 2019, 12:17:54 AM
Nick

Might want to take a look at the Belles Aria Integrated amp.  It is on the warmer side of neutral like all of Dave's gear and Fritz is a Belles fan.  The Aria comes up used fairly regularly but if not you should be able to find a dealer with some wiggle room like Audiowaves in Ca. I thought about picking one up used to try but my Audia Flight has a similar signature and all of the same features so no need.  One may very well pop up on the used market by the time your break-in is finished.

Charles,
I’ll take a look. Am curious...how would the Belles compare with the AH integrateds?
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 19, 2019, 12:21:31 AM
  Give it time. Not a fan of ICE amps for top end reproduction. I found them to be bright, hard and over detailed. Especially if only source is digital. Maybe we can get you a tubed amp to check out after you have 200 hours on the speakers.

charles

Yes, after breakin, would certainly consider tube amp
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on November 21, 2019, 06:42:05 PM
Nick,

I can’t help but wonder how the Carrera speakers would sound powered by my Don Sachs Kootenay 120. I shouldn’t be in a position to offer mine because I should have arrived in Taiwan yesterday. However, something happened that threw a monkey wrench into our well laid plans, so we are in Atlanta with our son instead.  :duh

Anyway, I believe we will return home (in December) for a couple days before flying to Taiwan. If that is the case, I could offer you the use of my amp for a couple months. Of course, I would want it back within a couple days of my return to Oregon in March because I tend to miss it dearly while I’m away. If we don’t return home before flying to Taiwan, you must suffer without it.

About a year ago I had a closed cell foam enclosure made for the amp that would snugly fit into one of our polycarbonate suitcases. I had thought I would take it to Taiwan, but didn’t follow through with this because we spend more time in the US than in Taiwan. I’ve never shipped a heavy suitcase before, but I imagine it would be pretty straight forward, no? Insured shipping might be expensive though.

Whaddya think?

Michael
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on November 21, 2019, 06:54:56 PM
Michael

Based on my experiment last week I think you are right.  I tried mine with the RM-10 for most of last week and it pushed them easily into the 90-95 db range. I am going to try the Mystere EL-34 based amp tomorrow for a bit and see how it does.  Right now testing out the $499 Nuforce STA-200 based on the Goldmund/Job circuit and it is a very pleasant surprise.  Just needs the right preamp or at least one with adjustable gain. 
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 21, 2019, 10:06:18 PM
Nick,

I can’t help but wonder how the Carrera speakers would sound powered by my Don Sachs Kootenay 120. I shouldn’t be in a position to offer mine because I should have arrived in Taiwan yesterday. However, something happened that threw a monkey wrench into our well laid plans, so we are in Atlanta with our son instead.  :duh

Anyway, I believe we will return home (in December) for a couple days before flying to Taiwan. If that is the case, I could offer you the use of my amp for a couple months. Of course, I would want it back within a couple days of my return to Oregon in March because I tend to miss it dearly while I’m away. If we don’t return home before flying to Taiwan, you must suffer without it.

About a year ago I had a closed cell foam enclosure made for the amp that would snugly fit into one of our polycarbonate suitcases. I had thought I would take it to Taiwan, but didn’t follow through with this because we spend more time in the US than in Taiwan. I’ve never shipped a heavy suitcase before, but I imagine it would be pretty straight forward, no? Insured shipping might be expensive though.

Whaddya think?

Michael

Michael,
That’s a kind offer and let me ponder that. My guess is that the Kootenay is a monstrous, heavy beast and it would take 3, well ok 2, old guys to lift it on my stand. I’m 68... It would be wonderful to hear it. I am trying to get to California for Christmas, so we’d have to work out the timing.
I’m glad you posted because I’ve been meaning to give an update on the “tiny tot” Fritzes as I like to call them. They have over 100 hours and I’m carefully keeping track.  It’s truly a wonderful speaker. Great beryllium tweeter and a great 7” mid/woofer. I’m very pleased how this speaker can play some old tunes especially and reveal details and nuances I hadn’t heard before. I thought the LS 50s did a nice job in that dept, but the Fritzes do a much nicer job. The bass reproduction is very good for such a small box...30 lbs. When I played Fanfare for the Common Man the first time, the bass impact was so forceful I was startled. The bass response is down to 37 hz and currently they’re about 18” from the front wall.
I am getting more soundstage depth and the Fritzes make me appreciate how musical my Border Patrol SE dac is. I still have a little boominess in the bass and some glare with vocals, violins, etc. It may be room acoustics or other factors like my ICE amp and I’m trying to educate myself in that area.
I am researching and evaluating potential changes in the preamp, amp, cabling and upgrading the BP dac with Jensen caps....if they are available because they will no longer be made next year. I’ve also taken a look at the nos MDHT dac that uses a TDA 1541A Ohillips chip rather than the 1541 that the BP dac uses. It’s fun for me to read and learn, but as to the very technical stuff...  :shock:
Nick

Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on November 24, 2019, 09:10:28 PM
I spoke with Fritz today and bought the Carreras. I have over 150 hours now and that is more than enough to confirm what a wonderful speaker this is. I’ll post more comments after 250 hours.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 01, 2019, 07:01:20 PM
These “tiny tot” Fritzes continue to improve and amaze. About 175 hours now. Very musical and great fun to listen to. Detailed, holographic, great tonality. What a great match too with my Audio Hungary preamp.
As a brief aside and not wanting to derail this thread, I’m considering amps or integrateds from microZOTL, Audio Hungary or just trying the used market for a while.
I sent an email to the guy who bought my Nolas in 2018 as I value his experience and opinions. Received a detailed, very helpful response.
What a great hobby that folks are so helpful and generous with their time  :thumb:
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on December 06, 2019, 10:17:00 PM
I've got a question for any of you who own the Carrera Be or Rev 7 SE speakers.

Are you satisfied with their frequency range, or do you ever ponder adding a subwoofer? Alternatively, have you ever imagined taking the Carreras and adding a 10" woofer to make a three-way speaker? Is this unnecessary?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Michael
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on December 06, 2019, 11:57:31 PM
Michael

In most situations for most people the bass from the Revelator woofer in either of the two speakers is more than enough in an average room.  In my situation I have the Rythmik and ACI subs in place so I use them in all three systems no matter what the speaker is.  In a large room a subwoofer may be needed as soundstage fill.  Properly adjusted the subs make the Carrera's sound bigger than they are if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on December 07, 2019, 06:38:23 AM
Good morning, Jack.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I guess my curiosity stems from my having a pair of Daedalus Apollos (3-way with a 10" woofer). The sound is marvelous. I think I want to recreate that sound, but in a less expensive pair of speakers. It's not so much that I'm trying to stretch down to ~20Hz. It's more the idea of improving the midwoofer's overall efficiency and sound by cutting its load in the lower frequencies.

If I bought such a three-way speaker for our home in Oregon, it would be placed in our TV room whose cubic foot size is huge because of the open floor plan - kitchen, breakfast nook, family room + cathedral ceiling. My single F12G is insufficient - two may not be enough. Trying to add more subwoofers butts up against the dreaded WAF.

The Apollos have spoiled me, and changed how I think about speakers even though most of the music that I enjoy listening to is well covered by the Carreras.

Michael

Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on December 07, 2019, 01:20:10 PM
Michael

While probably not as big an area to fill as yours my Family Room is a little over 5500 cubit feet with an 8' foot opening in the rear to the Kitchen/Breakfast Room and an opening to the Foyer in the back left so still a bit of space to fill.  I found the Carrera's and two F12G's to do the job admirably.  I had the Carrera's seven feet apart on 24'" black wooden Tyler Acoustics stands.  The two subs were placed just to the inside of the stands and a few inches back crossed at 50 hz.  With the speakers being in a Tiger Ebony finish there are enough black stripes in the veneer to blend in with the subs and stands so not presenting an image much different than a wide baffle floor standing speaker.  While the sub placement was probably not ideal like your situation this is a public access space so some consideration must be given to WAF unlike in my enclosed dedicated room.  I bought the Tyler stands years ago on AC for a really good price though currently they are pretty pricey new.  An acceptable alternative are the stands from Ascend Acoustics which are also square pillar MDF and fillable.

http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/spkstnds/pedstlcmt340.html

So if you use two black F12's and the stands in matte black along with a complimentary veneer and place them similar to how I had them I suspect it might pass the WAF test. Show her the stands and subs and let her pick the veneer for the Carrera's that she thinks works.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on December 07, 2019, 03:42:01 PM
Doug & Jack,

Thank you.

In my imagination, I was trying to add bass and reducing the load on the woofers by recreating new 'super' Carreras by combining Carreras with <for example> CSS-Audio's 10" woofers into a single floorstanding cabinet. That would require a new cabinet ($$$), new XO ($$$), and paying someone to design them ($$$). Buying one more F12G + a pair of Carreras must be a heckuva lot cheaper.

Now, how do I get my wife to say yes? Hmm. Sell ALL of my excess gear, take her on a trip to Europe, and I may have to buy her a new car.  :shock:

Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on December 07, 2019, 04:15:18 PM
Michael

If Fritz put two Revelator woofers and the Be tweeter in a floor standing cabinet you might get the speaker that fits the bill.  Would be similar to what Klaus did when he went from the Kismet monitor to the Liquid. 
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Folsom on December 07, 2019, 07:10:49 PM
Fritz's crossover method doesn't work with 3 ways.

An MTM is the limit to adding drivers really.

Active bass can be added. I'm curious if it's possible to do this kind of crossover with larger woofers like 12's or 15's and a compression driver... that would be interesting. That would be potentially worth paying to have developed.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on December 07, 2019, 07:26:40 PM
Fritz's crossover method doesn't work with 3 ways.

An MTM is the limit to adding drivers really.

Active bass can be added. I'm curious if it's possible to do this kind of crossover with larger woofers like 12's or 15's and a compression driver... that would be interesting. That would be potentially worth paying to have developed.

That helps explain why he sells two-ways!

Thank you.

Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on December 07, 2019, 07:47:56 PM
Michael

I wonder what it would do if he added 24-26" to the cabinet height sealed from the passive components with another powered Revelator driver though I don't think he can go much larger as there is just under an inch on either side of the current driver.  Klaus is using two of the same driver in the Liquid with the second one on the bottom in a separate compartment and getting mid 20's response out of them.  I was getting -6 db at 25 hz from the Lorelei's in the larger cabinet with just one.  The Liquid's front baffle is only 1" larger and that includes those rolled edges. He could use one of the Hypex modules like Clayton is using in the new X series. Might be worth asking to see what he prices it out at.  Might eliminate adding anymore subs other than what you have with your F12 crossed over at around 40 hz just for the presence factor.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Folsom on December 07, 2019, 08:03:13 PM
You can't really compare Fritz to others too much. But I'm sure an MTM with a larger cabinet would get lower. I'd want the headroom from an MTM if I wanted it to play lower, but then again 35hz is plenty low enough IMO, until you add some active subs.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on December 07, 2019, 08:56:31 PM
Not comparing Fritz to Klaus as I am aware that the crossover designs are completely different.  My point was that in a cabinet 24" taller and a similar baffle size that Klaus is using two of the same driver to get into the mid-20's.  Whether it would be easier for Fritz to do with both drivers passive or one active would be a decision for him to make.  Whatever would get Michael the bass response he needs along with the WAF. Even though the Carrera's have been replaced in the FR system with the Nola KO's which do mid 20's on their own the two Rythmik subs are still in play with the crossover reduced. The KO's are using two 7" SEAS drivers in separate compartments with the mid's and tweeters open baffle.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 08, 2019, 12:50:25 AM
It’s really late here....as I’ve been up listening to the Fritzes. Still improving  :thumb:
Anyway, just got caught up reading this thread. Fritz can build all kinds of stuff. See this link and nearly all the way down on the left. I was just thinking tonight that if I moved and had more space, I’d have Fritz build me bigger speakers.

http://fritzspeakers.com/
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on December 08, 2019, 07:02:48 AM
This is turning into a really interesting brain-storming idea thread.  :thumb:

What led me down this path was that I made an impulse buy of a brand new pair of CSS-Audio LD25X tweeters. The first 40 pairs were available at a nice discount to get, so I jumped on a pair without much thought on what I wanted in a pair of speakers. Once they were in my hot little hands, I began thinking about what kind of speakers I wanted. I quickly decided that I wanted a nice midrange driver and an 8" to 10" woofer. For cabinets, I'm pretty certain I want stand-mounted speakers - perhaps 24 to 26" tall by 9" to 12" wide. Depth - thanks to my TV cabinet's depth - could be as much as 22".

Before Nick began this thread about Carreras, I had already tentatively tightened my midrange driver choices to a Satori mid, a Revelator mid, and an AT mid. I'm still fishing for a woofer.

Now, I've never heard the LD25X tweeter. I've heard its little brother - the 22mm driver, but I haven't compared its sound to other tweeters. I don't know how committed I am to using the LD25X for this idea. I know for a fact that I like the tweeter in the Fritz LS/5-R speakers. It's the same one that Fritz uses in his Rev 7 SE speakers. This led me to wonder if I could get Fritz (or another speaker designer) to modify a pair of Carreras or Rev 7 SEs by adding a big woofer to make a three-way. [I know. Call Fritz to chat with him. I eventually will, but not from 5000 miles away.]

That's all for the moment. My wife and I are departing ATL for Taiwan in a few hours (with a 6-hour wait in SeaTac) for our connecting flight to Taiwan. I don't have adequate time to fully explain my thinking right now, so I'll try to follow up later - perhaps while we're languishing at SeaTac.

Michael
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 08, 2019, 11:56:41 AM
This is turning into a really interesting brain-storming idea thread.  :thumb:

What led me down this path was that I made an impulse buy of a brand new pair of CSS-Audio LD25X tweeters. The first 40 pairs were available at a nice discount to get, so I jumped on a pair without much thought on what I wanted in a pair of speakers. Once they were in my hot little hands, I began thinking about what kind of speakers I wanted. I quickly decided that I wanted a nice midrange driver and an 8" to 10" woofer. For cabinets, I'm pretty certain I want stand-mounted speakers - perhaps 24 to 26" tall by 9" to 12" wide. Depth - thanks to my TV cabinet's depth - could be as much as 22".

Before Nick began this thread about Carreras, I had already tentatively tightened my midrange driver choices to a Satori mid, a Revelator mid, and an AT mid. I'm still fishing for a woofer.

Now, I've never heard the LD25X tweeter. I've heard its little brother - the 22mm driver, but I haven't compared its sound to other tweeters. I don't know how committed I am to using the LD25X for this idea. I know for a fact that I like the tweeter in the Fritz LS/5-R speakers. It's the same one that Fritz uses in his Rev 7 SE speakers. This led me to wonder if I could get Fritz (or another speaker designer) to modify a pair of Carreras or Rev 7 SEs by adding a big woofer to make a three-way. [I know. Call Fritz to chat with him. I eventually will, but not from 5000 miles away.]

That's all for the moment. My wife and I are departing ATL for Taiwan in a few hours (with a 6-hour wait in SeaTac) for our connecting flight to Taiwan. I don't have adequate time to fully explain my thinking right now, so I'll try to follow up later - perhaps while we're languishing at SeaTac.

Michael

OK, Michael. I’m curious as to the rest of your thoughts  :thumb:
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Folsom on December 08, 2019, 03:27:55 PM
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 08, 2019, 06:51:43 PM
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)
Title: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Guy 13 on December 08, 2019, 07:56:23 PM
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)

Hi Nick.
If the Christmas light bulbs were wired in series it's not easy to find which one is burnt,
because they all go out at the same time.
So, I agree with you.

Guy 13
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: rollo on December 09, 2019, 06:59:46 AM
  The Fritz two way is the one. The crossover is so well designed that a three way is just not warranted. Get a sub if ya need more. The beauty of Fritz designs is really the quality and great engineering of the crossover. Don't fool with it. Snell as well leave it the $%#& alone. The biggest reason we sell them. KISS.

charles
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Folsom on December 09, 2019, 11:00:44 AM
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)

A bigger speaker is heavier? Say it ain't so :rofl:

The series crossover works like poop beyond a 2 way. But that doesn't mean he couldn't built a big MTM two way with bigger drivers. Maybe I'll ask him about that... if he's experimented with compression drivers and such.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: dBe on December 09, 2019, 11:25:30 AM
A bigger speaker is heavier? Say it ain't so :rofl:

The series crossover works like poop beyond a 2 way. But that doesn't mean he couldn't built a big MTM two way with bigger drivers. Maybe I'll ask him about that... if he's experimented with compression drivers and such.

Ray Kimber experimented with the DiAural Crossover (series) and IIRC he did some experimentation with a compression driver and cone LF speaker. 

https://www.stereophile.com/news/10416/index.html

An excerpt:

"Just inside the plant's wide industrial door was a pair of large three-way professional horn loudspeakers, of a type that might grace the rafters at any arena rock show. Eric Alexander had also worked his magic on these, bypassing a disturbingly complex crossover network and ignoring the manufacturer's admonition to use the speakers only with the recommended processor. Instead, an old Technics SL-P1300 CD player was connected to an even older BGW power amp, which in turn was hooked up to the speakers through maybe 30' of 8TC cable. Kimber rolled open the door, popped a disc in the player, and motioned for me to go outside.

We walked away from the building about 50 yards and turned around to hear Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick with more clarity and fidelity than I have ever heard. The midrange was especially lucid, something that took me completely by surprise. Pro loudspeakers tend to sound raspy, nasty, and congested, but these were clean and clear as the Utah air. It was exactly the sound audiophiles wish for when they attend large concerts, and it demonstrated to me that it is entirely possible to move vast quantities of air without sacrificing sound quality. Kimber even turned it up loud enough to bounce the sound off a building 100 yards away, and the echo was also startlingly clear. So was the reflection off the inside of the door when he closed it."

Compression drivers are a perfect choice for a HF application in series crossovers due to their tremendous efficiency when compared to the LF driver often being 6-10dB more sensitive.  This headstart on power dissipation makes a well designed 2-way compression driver/cone driver series application much more appealing.  Using well heatsinked wirewound low TCR resistors like the 50W Ohmites opens up a world of options.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Ohmite/850F10RE?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvNd0dY0Kymzuw5pXeikcVFPra%252BA1kKclE%3D

I have a huge collection of crossover information that Ray sent to me back around 2000-ish It covers the history of crossover design. patents and the like.  Isent him some copies of old Speakerlab research by Pat Snyder that covers all types of crossover designs including cascading the HF section in a 3-way from the midrange section instead of just parallel connection that increases LF rolloff of the HF driver at low frequencies by the order of the midrange section.  Brilliant!

tThere is a tremendous amount of info out there IF one takes the time to do the research. Ray Kimber is one of THOSE guys!   :thumb:
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 09, 2019, 01:14:43 PM
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)

A bigger speaker is heavier? Say it ain't so :rofl:

The series crossover works like poop beyond a 2 way. But that doesn't mean he couldn't built a big MTM two way with bigger drivers. Maybe I'll ask him about that... if he's experimented with compression drivers and such.
Actually, it’s so  :lol: It was a bit of a what/if comment as I believe my current situation is not etched in stone
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on December 09, 2019, 07:54:55 PM
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

First: We arrived in Taiwan - tired, but safe. Jet lag will stomp us for the next few days.

Jeremy,

I know little to nothing about XO design, so my naive mind doesn't understand how adding a woofer could mess up Fritz's crossover. In my mind, it's as simple as limiting the midwoofer's lower range to 80 or 100Hz and rerouting the <100Hz signal to the new woofer. I'm not questioning your statement. I just don't understand how XOs are designed and what limitations exist.

It sounds as though it's far simpler to get a subwoofer or two; stuff a sock in the Carreras ports, and listen to my heart's content.

Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on December 09, 2019, 09:25:27 PM
Michael

You won't need to stuff a sock in the ports unless you are going to place them too close to the wall.  But yes the Carrera's, twin subs and sturdy stands is simpler on the surface.  Fritz call me about a week ago and I was out so I need to call him back and will in the next couple of days.  I sent him an e-mail Saturday night about the turn this thread had taken and hoped he would join in but so far he hasn't.  When I call him I will ask him about both the passive and powered floor stander options.  He delivered another pair of Carrera's to Dev from AC on Sunday so maybe he will join the discussion at some point.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: dBe on December 09, 2019, 10:19:07 PM
quote author=mresseguie link=topic=7333.msg93995#msg93995 date=1575950095]
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

First: We arrived in Taiwan - tired, but safe. Jet lag will stomp us for the next few days.

It sounds as though it's far simpler to get a subwoofer or two; stuff a sock in the Carreras ports, and listen to my heart's content.
[/quote]Rest up, Brother.  Jet lag is insidious and leads us to do bad things like buying bad audio gear on a dopey whim!  🤪

Adding powered subwoofers makes a lot more sense than screwing with the incredibly complex relationships present in 3 way series crossovers. There are no ways to adequately model them and it is easy to screw up and blow up otherwise good drivers while trying to optimize one.  I know:  been there, done that... twice.  Sucked blowing up ScanSpeak tweets!

If one is serious about trying to do this here is where one starts.  Good luck:

https://www.tubecad.com/2017/11/blog0403.htm




Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Brap on December 10, 2019, 09:24:50 AM
Being a new member of the "Fritz Club", at this point I do not see a need for a sub.  Listening to string bass jazz pretty consistently, I am impressed with the low end of these.  Not the greatest room environment but these reach really low. Truly a satisfied buyer and highly recommended.  Running with a 35WPC ST-70
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 10, 2019, 09:48:53 AM
Being a new member of the "Fritz Club", at this point I do not see a need for a sub.  Listening to string bass jazz pretty consistently, I am impressed with the low end of these.  Not the greatest room environment but these reach really low. Truly a satisfied buyer and highly recommended.  Running with a 35WPC ST-70

Yes, welcome to the club! I certainly have enough bass for my current situation. That ST 70 is quite the vintage amp.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on December 10, 2019, 03:00:16 PM
It occurred to me that I may have managed to disrupt this thread with my questions. If this is the case, perhaps I should continue it in a new thread(?). Just askin'.

I'm sitting in my living room listening to music while my new Sabaj D5 slowly burns in on my Taiwan-based system (approximately 10 hours now). The music certainly sounds nice, and I detect none of the metallic notes that my old Gustard ESS9018 DAC was guilty of producing. This is <so far> performing admirably considering the very low price of $429 delivered.

Without my checking my earlier posts in this thread, I'm thinking I haven't explained myself well enough. Posters keep pointing out that there is enough bass/low bass for them. Yet, my objective isn't solely about filling in the lowest octaves; it is more about first creating even better (cleaner, stronger, clearer??) midrange by relieving the midwoofers of the duty of producing bass in the <100Hz range, and secondly introducing stronger sub-100Hz bass with ~10" woofers in a room that sucks out huge amounts of bass due to its huge cu ft area.

If I were to place Carreras or REV 7s in my TV/family room in Oregon, the bass would still be sucked out of the listening space and disappear into the kitchen or upstairs hallway. I would be left with nearly the same problem that I already have with my Jeff Bagby Adelphos. My money would be much better spent on a couple of sealed Rythmik 15" subs - assuming my wife could be persuaded to live with them.  :roll:

Before I began thinking about trying Carreras or REV 7s, I had been thinking about commissioning a pair of fairly large three-ways whose goals were excellent midrange and bass to <approx> 30Hz. My commissioning three-ways is still a possibility. If I bought a pair of Fritz's speakers for this listening space, I would still have to buy <at least> one more subwoofer. It was while reading this thread that I hit upon the <apparently naive> assumption that adding a couple of 10" woofers to the crossovers ought to be pretty simple. [In my imagination, many otherwise complex actions are often pretty simple.  :lol:]

As much trouble as all of this is, getting my wife to allow a different placement of gear across the left wall (which is a far better position for audio) is a FAR MORE DIFFICULT endeavor.  :duh :duh

In closing....

Here I am in my concrete living room listening to my Fritz LS/5-R two-ways marveling at how beautiful they sound <even without acoustic treatments in this room>. I've got my Sabaj D5 connected to my IceEdge 1200as2 amp via XLR - simple, minimalist, beautiful. My 84dB sensitivity LS/5-Rs are finally happy. Hopefully, the D5 will live up to my needs and wants, and I can sell my bulky preamp and extra amp.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 10, 2019, 05:56:46 PM
It occurred to me that I may have managed to disrupt this thread with my questions. If this is the case, perhaps I should continue it in a new thread(?). Just askin'.

I'm sitting in my living room listening to music while my new Sabaj D5 slowly burns in on my Taiwan-based system (approximately 10 hours now). The music certainly sounds nice, and I detect none of the metallic notes that my old Gustard ESS9018 DAC was guilty of producing. This is <so far> performing admirably considering the very low price of $429 delivered.

Without my checking my earlier posts in this thread, I'm thinking I haven't explained myself well enough. Posters keep pointing out that there is enough bass/low bass for them. Yet, my objective isn't solely about filling in the lowest octaves; it is more about first creating even better (cleaner, stronger, clearer??) midrange by relieving the midwoofers of the duty of producing bass in the <100Hz range, and secondly introducing stronger sub-100Hz bass with ~10" woofers in a room that sucks out huge amounts of bass due to its huge cu ft area.

If I were to place Carreras or REV 7s in my TV/family room in Oregon, the bass would still be sucked out of the listening space and disappear into the kitchen or upstairs hallway. I would be left with nearly the same problem that I already have with my Jeff Bagby Adelphos. My money would be much better spent on a couple of sealed Rythmik 15" subs - assuming my wife could be persuaded to live with them.  :roll:

Before I began thinking about trying Carreras or REV 7s, I had been thinking about commissioning a pair of fairly large three-ways whose goals were excellent midrange and bass to <approx> 30Hz. My commissioning three-ways is still a possibility. If I bought a pair of Fritz's speakers for this listening space, I would still have to buy <at least> one more subwoofer. It was while reading this thread that I hit upon the <apparently naive> assumption that adding a couple of 10" woofers to the crossovers ought to be pretty simple. [In my imagination, many otherwise complex actions are often pretty simple.  :lol:]

As much trouble as all of this is, getting my wife to allow a different placement of gear across the left wall (which is a far better position for audio) is a FAR MORE DIFFICULT endeavor.  :duh :duh

In closing....

Here I am in my concrete living room listening to my Fritz LS/5-R two-ways marveling at how beautiful they sound <even without acoustic treatments in this room>. I've got my Sabaj D5 connected to my IceEdge 1200as2 amp via XLR - simple, minimalist, beautiful. My 84dB sensitivity LS/5-Rs are finally happy. Hopefully, the D5 will live up to my needs and wants, and I can sell my bulky preamp and extra amp.   :thumb:

Glad you are getting settled, Michael. As to staying on topic, that was never my strong point when I was the forum owner here. So I will let Folsom decide that.
I can’t help you much as to technical issues, especially since I’ve never had subs set up.
As to that ESS dac, I believe that chip has a reputation for some harshness.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Folsom on December 13, 2019, 04:38:15 PM
I don't care, it's all Fritz talk. Either way is fine.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 14, 2019, 01:16:52 PM
...As to that ESS dac, I believe that chip has a reputation for some harshness.

it's all in the implementation. have you read the reviews on the sabaj d5?  anything but harsh.  i have an older yulong d18, w/the ess 9018 chip; not harsh.

i've been interested in (relatively) cheap newer dac implementations; i suspect the latest crop will stand up to 5-figure dacs w/little issue.  even my trusty modded art di/o had no problem doing that 10 years ago.  i just received a cheap dac that i got on special - the topping d70, w/dual ak4497 chips (one per channel), we'll see how it goes.  even at its normal discounted price of $499, it's supposed to be really nice.  i got mine for a bit less than that!   8)

ymmv,

doug s.

Thanks for that, Doug. I hadn’t heard of the Sabaj. I’ve just searched for it and will read up on it.  It’s great to have your expertise as you find such great bargains  :thumb:
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Jack on December 14, 2019, 02:03:21 PM
Nick

I think Michael just bought one to take to Taiwan.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on December 14, 2019, 02:29:45 PM
Nick

I think Michael just bought one to take to Taiwan.

Jack is correct. My Sabaj D5 is still burning in, but it's got over a hundred hours on it now. I haven't sat down for a serious listening session yet (and won't be able to for another 4 or 5 days minimum), but it sounds pretty darned nice. I don't have either of my NOS DACs here for comparison purposes, so I won't be able to make comparisons. I do expect to visit at least two local audiophiles in January who love to compare components, and I will keep you abreast of their findings.

[I have not listened critically at this point, and my listening room is a largely untreated concrete box, so take this into account.]

Acoustic instruments sound correct; both male and female voices sound how I like them to sound. There was some glare and brightness in the first 24 hours, but that seems to have disappeared. I'll play some poorly recorded material (70s/80s rock) that sounds horrible on my main system in Oregon in order to satisfy my more masochistic tendencies.

My system in Taiwan consists of MacBook Pro streaming Tidal or the CDs I burned onto the HD => Sabaj D5 => IceEdge 1200as2 => Fritz LS/5-R with an all TWL loom. My USB cord is an inexpensive cord that came with the Sabaj D5. All components are plugged into Dave's DigiBUSS. I have a Super Duper MiniBUSS that Dave sold to me, which is in another room. I'll eventually plug it into this system. The Sabaj D5 is connected to the amp via Pete's XLR cables.

Anyway, so far so good. Considering it cost me just $429 delivered(!) this is one impressive sounding DAC. It renders my aging Gustard X20u ESS 9018 DAC useless. Who would be silly enough to buy it from me with the D5 as competition? Perhaps, I can one day reuse the case for a DIY project.

Michael

Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 14, 2019, 03:14:10 PM
Nick

I think Michael just bought one to take to Taiwan.

 :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 14, 2019, 03:18:50 PM
Nick

I think Michael just bought one to take to Taiwan.

Jack is correct. My Sabaj D5 is still burning in, but it's got over a hundred hours on it now. I haven't sat down for a serious listening session yet (and won't be able to for another 4 or 5 days minimum), but it sounds pretty darned nice. I don't have either of my NOS DACs here for comparison purposes, so I won't be able to make comparisons. I do expect to visit at least two local audiophiles in January who love to compare components, and I will keep you abreast of their findings.

[I have not listened critically at this point, and my listening room is a largely untreated concrete box, so take this into account.]

Acoustic instruments sound correct; both male and female voices sound how I like them to sound. There was some glare and brightness in the first 24 hours, but that seems to have disappeared. I'll play some poorly recorded material (70s/80s rock) that sounds horrible on my main system in Oregon in order to satisfy my more masochistic tendencies.

My system in Taiwan consists of MacBook Pro streaming Tidal or the CDs I burned onto the HD => Sabaj D5 => IceEdge 1200as2 => Fritz LS/5-R with an all TWL loom. My USB cord is an inexpensive cord that came with the Sabaj D5. All components are plugged into Dave's DigiBUSS. I have a Super Duper MiniBUSS that Dave sold to me, which is in another room. I'll eventually plug it into this system. The Sabaj D5 is connected to the amp via Pete's XLR cables.

Anyway, so far so good. Considering it cost me just $429 delivered(!) this is one impressive sounding DAC. It renders my aging Gustard X20u ESS 9018 DAC useless. Who would be silly enough to buy it from me with the D5 as competition? Perhaps, I can one day reuse the case for a DIY project.

Michael

How did you find out about the Sabaj, Michael? Nothing like getting a bargain like Doug.  I’ve been looking into the newer version of my nos Border Patrol SE. But it’s up in the air because Jensen is discontinuing making capacitors.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on December 14, 2019, 05:25:25 PM
Nick

I think Michael just bought one to take to Taiwan.

Jack is correct. My Sabaj D5 is still burning in, but it's got over a hundred hours on it now. I haven't sat down for a serious listening session yet (and won't be able to for another 4 or 5 days minimum), but it sounds pretty darned nice. I don't have either of my NOS DACs here for comparison purposes, so I won't be able to make comparisons. I do expect to visit at least two local audiophiles in January who love to compare components, and I will keep you abreast of their findings.

[I have not listened critically at this point, and my listening room is a largely untreated concrete box, so take this into account.]

Acoustic instruments sound correct; both male and female voices sound how I like them to sound. There was some glare and brightness in the first 24 hours, but that seems to have disappeared. I'll play some poorly recorded material (70s/80s rock) that sounds horrible on my main system in Oregon in order to satisfy my more masochistic tendencies.

My system in Taiwan consists of MacBook Pro streaming Tidal or the CDs I burned onto the HD => Sabaj D5 => IceEdge 1200as2 => Fritz LS/5-R with an all TWL loom. My USB cord is an inexpensive cord that came with the Sabaj D5. All components are plugged into Dave's DigiBUSS. I have a Super Duper MiniBUSS that Dave sold to me, which is in another room. I'll eventually plug it into this system. The Sabaj D5 is connected to the amp via Pete's XLR cables.

Anyway, so far so good. Considering it cost me just $429 delivered(!) this is one impressive sounding DAC. It renders my aging Gustard X20u ESS 9018 DAC useless. Who would be silly enough to buy it from me with the D5 as competition? Perhaps, I can one day reuse the case for a DIY project.

Michael

How did you find out about the Sabaj, Michael? Nothing like getting a bargain like Doug.  I’ve been looking into the newer version of my nos Border Patrol SE. But it’s up in the air because Jensen is discontinuing making capacitors.
Nick

Howdy, Nick.

Wushuliu is an amazing resource. He keeps abreast of what's new and interesting; often buys what appear to be the choicest components, and sometimes mods them once he's used them for a spell. I first learned of the D5 from his posts. Perhaps, he can be persuaded to start posting over here?

This is the second time I've read a post about Jensen caps' coming demise. Do you mean the Border Patrol guy may stop selling the DAC because Jensen will cease production, or do you mean your upgrade may not go forward because you only want Jensen caps, but cannot because production has ceased? To my <not always correct> imagination, Jensen's demise means it's simply time to find another manufacturer such as Miflex, Jupiter, Danny Richie's new Cu caps, etc.

I really need to get off my ass and learn how to make quality solder connections (as opposed to the crappy ones I've mangled in the recent past). I want to play with different caps and I want to try my hand at customizable DIY gear.

Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 14, 2019, 05:59:59 PM
Nick

I think Michael just bought one to take to Taiwan.

Jack is correct. My Sabaj D5 is still burning in, but it's got over a hundred hours on it now. I haven't sat down for a serious listening session yet (and won't be able to for another 4 or 5 days minimum), but it sounds pretty darned nice. I don't have either of my NOS DACs here for comparison purposes, so I won't be able to make comparisons. I do expect to visit at least two local audiophiles in January who love to compare components, and I will keep you abreast of their findings.

[I have not listened critically at this point, and my listening room is a largely untreated concrete box, so take this into account.]

Acoustic instruments sound correct; both male and female voices sound how I like them to sound. There was some glare and brightness in the first 24 hours, but that seems to have disappeared. I'll play some poorly recorded material (70s/80s rock) that sounds horrible on my main system in Oregon in order to satisfy my more masochistic tendencies.

My system in Taiwan consists of MacBook Pro streaming Tidal or the CDs I burned onto the HD => Sabaj D5 => IceEdge 1200as2 => Fritz LS/5-R with an all TWL loom. My USB cord is an inexpensive cord that came with the Sabaj D5. All components are plugged into Dave's DigiBUSS. I have a Super Duper MiniBUSS that Dave sold to me, which is in another room. I'll eventually plug it into this system. The Sabaj D5 is connected to the amp via Pete's XLR cables.

Anyway, so far so good. Considering it cost me just $429 delivered(!) this is one impressive sounding DAC. It renders my aging Gustard X20u ESS 9018 DAC useless. Who would be silly enough to buy it from me with the D5 as competition? Perhaps, I can one day reuse the case for a DIY project.

Michael

How did you find out about the Sabaj, Michael? Nothing like getting a bargain like Doug.  I’ve been looking into the newer version of my nos Border Patrol SE. But it’s up in the air because Jensen is discontinuing making capacitors.
Nick

Howdy, Nick.

Wushuliu is an amazing resource. He keeps abreast of what's new and interesting; often buys what appear to be the choicest components, and sometimes mods them once he's used them for a spell. I first learned of the D5 from his posts. Perhaps, he can be persuaded to start posting over here?

This is the second time I've read a post about Jensen caps' coming demise. Do you mean the Border Patrol guy may stop selling the DAC because Jensen will cease production, or do you mean your upgrade may not go forward because you only want Jensen caps, but cannot because production has ceased? To my <not always correct> imagination, Jensen's demise means it's simply time to find another manufacturer such as Miflex, Jupiter, Danny Richie's new Cu caps, etc.

I really need to get off my ass and learn how to make quality solder connections (as opposed to the crappy ones I've mangled in the recent past). I want to play with different caps and I want to try my hand at customizable DIY gear.

Michael,
I just got more information via the Parts Express website. Yes, Jensen is ceasing operation after year end, but Dueland has bought their machinery. I’ve emailed BPs Gary Dews a few times and spoken with him once. He has some Jensen caps (I have no idea how many), but is saving those for his new dac, not for upgrades. He’s also ordered more of those caps, but the status on that is unknown.
He’s also auditioning other caps as well based on sound and size. He promised me an update when he knows more, but I haven’t anything. I have the SE dac and his newest is the SEi.

https://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitors-film-jensen-copper-foil.html
http://borderpatrol.net/DAC.htm

Regarding soldering, you’re way ahead of me. I probably haven’t soldered in 10 years and don’t have much interest right now.
Nick

Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: rollo on December 15, 2019, 11:13:15 AM
  Nick stick with BP DAC. Or upgrade entirely. IMHO the BP SE DAC is excellent for the money. It approaches but no cigar the future proof Aqua Acoustic La Scala optologic ladder DAC at 8K. Most other DACs will take you sideways not upward.
  The BP also mated extremely well with all Innuos servers which you may consider at a later date. As far a subs are concerned for Fritz, unless you like organ music not required. However some may benefit from the sub in space and staging. If so run sub up to Fritz meaning crossover just below -3db point of speaker. Then adjust as required for room.


charles
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 15, 2019, 11:32:06 AM
Michael,
I just got more information via the Parts Express website. Yes, Jensen is ceasing operation after year end, but Dueland has bought their machinery. I’ve emailed BPs Gary Dews a few times and spoken with him once. He has some Jensen caps (I have no idea how many), but is saving those for his new dac, not for upgrades. He’s also ordered more of those caps, but the status on that is unknown.
He’s also auditioning other caps as well based on sound and size. He promised me an update when he knows more, but I haven’t anything. I have the SE dac and his newest is the SEi.

https://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitors-film-jensen-copper-foil.html
http://borderpatrol.net/DAC.htm

Regarding soldering, you’re way ahead of me. I probably haven’t soldered in 10 years and don’t have much interest right now.
Nick
i investigated caps when i bought boards to build one of folsom's amps.  (which are still sitting here...  :roll: )  anyway, i think there are a few caps out there worth investigating that aren't stupid money, like the top duelands.  (dueland bought the jensen machinery for one of two reasons, imo - jack up the price, or mothball it so no one else makes them anymore.)

if i ever build out the folsom amps, i will be using audyn true copper or true copper max caps.

here's a good time waster:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html (http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html)
(graphed rankings):
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble%20Homemade%20Hifi_Cap-Test-Ratings.pdf (http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble%20Homemade%20Hifi_Cap-Test-Ratings.pdf)

doug s.

Very good sites. Thanks much  :thumb:
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 15, 2019, 11:41:42 AM
  Nick stick with BP DAC. Or upgrade entirely. IMHO the BP SE DAC is excellent for the money. It approaches but no cigar the future proof Aqua Acoustic La Scala optologic ladder DAC at 8K. Most other DACs will take you sideways not upward.
  The BP also mated extremely well with all Innuos servers which you may consider at a later date. As far a subs are concerned for Fritz, unless you like organ music not required. However some may benefit from the sub in space and staging. If so run sub up to Fritz meaning crossover just below -3db point of speaker. Then adjust as required for room.


charles

Charles,
I’m happy with the Border Patrol SE dac, but a cap upgrade and maybe trying a Brimar tube would certainly be interesting. The sound continues to improve and am enjoying Dave’s Uber Puerto. Your ears are spot on as to the sound of the Audio Hungary 204 preamp and the Fritz Carreras and I appreciate your recommendations. I have no intention to add a sub. I just don’t need it for my current situation.
Thanks,
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: rollo on December 15, 2019, 12:49:44 PM
   Nick, what type tube is used in DAC ? I have so many tubes maybe I can help.  Sub info was general info. Did not realize you had SE version. Yes cap upgrade is big. Do it.


charles
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 15, 2019, 01:04:05 PM
   Nick, what type tube is used in DAC ? I have so many tubes maybe I can help.  Sub info was general info. Did not realize you had SE version. Yes cap upgrade is big. Do it.


charles

Charles, it’s an EZ80. I mentioned Brimar as that is/was Gary Dews favorite.
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Folsom on December 15, 2019, 05:57:37 PM
Doug, these things make the sound different, but they don't improve the measurements typically.

Higher grade DACs definitely do a lot more to keep noise down from the power supplies. Also they can have very different designs for filters, it's possible, but they don't necessarily do that.

Digital is a frontier most people want improvements in, the sound of the studio is often something people are trying to avoid.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 15, 2019, 06:21:21 PM
Yes, power supply application. It would only be a $30 investment. For breaking in my Fritzes, I’ve played the dac without the tube on.  Sometimes, I’ll turn it on when I’m listening for fun. Can I describe the difference right now...ummm...no. I’ve not done the critical, often tedious, hyper listening. I must say I’m at a new reference level for me, in spite of my gripes about some vocal harshness. There’s lots of improvement to still be had  :thumb:

i agree w/a cap upgrade being a worthwhile consideration.  but re: the tube, isn't it only for the power supply, and not actually in the audio signal path?  if so, i'm curious how much difference that would make...

doug s.
Charles,
I’m happy with the Border Patrol SE dac, but a cap upgrade and maybe trying a Brimar tube would certainly be interesting. The sound continues to improve and am enjoying Dave’s Uber Puerto. Your ears are spot on as to the sound of the Audio Hungary 204 preamp and the Fritz Carreras and I appreciate your recommendations. I have no intention to add a sub. I just don’t need it for my current situation.
Thanks,
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Brap on December 18, 2019, 09:23:44 AM
Loving the Carrera's. New streamer is sweet.  Love Qobuz thus far.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 18, 2019, 11:58:52 AM
Loving the Carrera's. New streamer is sweet.  Love Qobuz thus far.

Thanks for the great pic! It’s wonderful to see a reel to reel. As to the Carreras, in my system they really opened up at 150 hours. I’m close to having 250 on them. Glad you like that Cambridge as well. Enjoy!
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Brap on December 18, 2019, 12:02:27 PM
thanks -- yup still love to 4 track RtoR. I am interested to record from my pre-amp out streaming 24 / 192 and compare the RtoR sound versus streamer just for fun.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on January 03, 2020, 12:04:41 AM
thanks -- yup still love to 4 track RtoR. I am interested to record from my pre-amp out streaming 24 / 192 and compare the RtoR sound versus streamer just for fun.

I’m curious how your tiny tot Fritzes are breaking in. I’m past 250 hours and am no longer keeping track. Fritz called me a couple of weeks ago and I mentioned that our forum has another member who bought the Carreras and he mentioned your name.
Hope you’re as happy with them as I am :thumb:
Nick
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Brap on January 03, 2020, 06:33:29 AM
Well, could not be happier!  Have tried with Dynaco ST-70 and OTL.  Prefer the Dynaco and will also experiment with a 2A3 PP amp this weekend. They are starting to open up nicely -- have about 150 hours.  Also spoke with Fritz a few times over the Holidays and told him that friends and family members may be giving him a call to order some up. Folks were impressed with the low end and albeit my room is not "audiophile acoustically built", soundstage and imaging is wonderful. Purchased a Cambridge streamer and starting to play with Hi-Res downloads and can really tell the difference with the different resolution downloads available regarding soundstage. Interesting, the OTL topology really had the drivers moving compared to the ST-70. Lots of pressurization taking place! VERY satisfied customer and smile that such a small footprint can produce a large presence. For an amp and speaker combo <$4,500, cannot be beat.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Nick B on January 03, 2020, 09:04:22 AM
Well, could not be happier!  Have tried with Dynaco ST-70 and OTL.  Prefer the Dynaco and will also experiment with a 2A3 PP amp this weekend. They are starting to open up nicely -- have about 150 hours.  Also spoke with Fritz a few times over the Holidays and told him that friends and family members may be giving him a call to order some up. Folks were impressed with the low end and albeit my room is not "audiophile acoustically built", soundstage and imaging is wonderful. Purchased a Cambridge streamer and starting to play with Hi-Res downloads and can really tell the difference with the different resolution downloads available regarding soundstage. Interesting, the OTL topology really had the drivers moving compared to the ST-70. Lots of pressurization taking place! VERY satisfied customer and smile that such a small footprint can produce a large presence. For an amp and speaker combo <$4,500, cannot be beat.

That’s good news  :thumb:  Wish I had a few lower powered tube amps to try out with the Carrerras, but my only experience is using my ICE amp. It’ll be interesting how the 2A3 PP compares.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Brap on January 03, 2020, 10:48:45 AM
Me too!  Stay tuned -- will advise more next week.  Happy New Year!
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: Folsom on January 03, 2020, 04:52:08 PM
Nice. I invited him to join the forum, but I guess he just lurks!
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: mresseguie on January 04, 2020, 05:55:41 AM
Hi, Fritz!

I wrote him an email about a week ago. In it, I asked about the possibility of creating a three-way; said I just might want to demo his Carreras this year, and mentioned that my LS/5-R speakers finally sound 'right' because I'm powering them with an IceEdge 1200as2 amp. They can 'sing' now! I'm really enjoying how they sound now. They just needed the right amplifier (i.e. powerful enough) to power them.

I'm so glad you all are really enjoying your Carreras.
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: rollo on January 04, 2020, 08:38:31 AM
Nice. I invited him to join the forum, but I guess he just lurks!

  I asked him as well. Being one of few dealers thought I might persuade him but Fritz is a laid back Calif. boy. Likes to talk on the phone. If anyone has any questions or needs info that is what I'm for here.


charles
Title: Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
Post by: AJ Soundfield on January 04, 2020, 09:14:15 AM
There is a pair of Soundfield SAM-1 for sale at AC at a very good price.

I was just on AC and found them...they are powered.... I like my ICE1200as amp.
Nope, they are passive...with an active, adjustable onboard sub to adapt to room/placement (and offer LF power/dynamics/extension below 30hz), just to clarify.

cheers,

AJ