AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Bipolar System Disorders => Topic started by: S Clark on April 09, 2021, 09:25:43 PM
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I picked up two pairs of Wywires RCA interconnects a few days ago. I haven't really had a chance to listen to them today, but I've got a friend coming over tomorrow, bringing some Audioquest IC's so I needed to get cracking.
My wife is out of town, so lots of things are possible. I started with a really nice LP, Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter". Just threw it on the table, kept my old IC's in, no diffusion in place, coffee table in front of leather couch... nothing optimized, and it sounded like it. My line sources can overpower the room easily, and the song "Way Down Deep" just did its boomy thing at about 120Hz.
So I put the diffusor panels in place in front of the big screen, and a second pair forming forward wings outside the speakers. Things improved. Moved the coffee table, things improved. Changed to the new/used Wywires silvers, things improved. Moved the couch back to open some space, switched to classical. Hi Q recording of Rimsky Korsakov Capriccio Espagnol. Took out the leather couch, moved in a cloth covered love seat. Things improved. More space, more detail. Changing the seating furniture is clearly an improvement.
Next turned out the lights, and poured myself a hot cup of coffee. Don't know if the music was better, but I enjoyed it more.
Everything makes a difference... :thumb:
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I picked up two pairs of Wywires RCA interconnects a few days ago. I haven't really had a chance to listen to them today, but I've got a friend coming over tomorrow, bringing some Audioquest IC's so I needed to get cracking.
My wife is out of town, so lots of things are possible. I started with a really nice LP, Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter". Just threw it on the table, kept my old IC's in, no diffusion in place, coffee table in front of leather couch... nothing optimized, and it sounded like it. My line sources can overpower the room easily, and the song "Way Down Deep" just did its boomy thing at about 120Hz.
So I put the diffusor panels in place in front of the big screen, and a second pair forming forward wings outside the speakers. Things improved. Moved the coffee table, things improved. Changed to the new/used Wywires silvers, things improved. Moved the couch back to open some space, switched to classical. Hi Q recording of Rimsky Korsakov Capriccio Espagnol. Took out the leather couch, moved in a cloth covered love seat. Things improved. More space, more detail. Changing the seating furniture is clearly an improvement.
Next turned out the lights, and poured myself a hot cup of coffee. Don't know if the music was better, but I enjoyed it more.
Everything makes a difference... :thumb:
How often have I said these things?
Everything effects (affects) everything...
The room is the most important interconnect in the system...
Oh, yeah: power is the heart of the system that helps the brain work.
Just sayin'.
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I picked up two pairs of Wywires RCA interconnects a few days ago. I haven't really had a chance to listen to them today, but I've got a friend coming over tomorrow, bringing some Audioquest IC's so I needed to get cracking.
My wife is out of town, so lots of things are possible. I started with a really nice LP, Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter". Just threw it on the table, kept my old IC's in, no diffusion in place, coffee table in front of leather couch... nothing optimized, and it sounded like it. My line sources can overpower the room easily, and the song "Way Down Deep" just did its boomy thing at about 120Hz.
So I put the diffusor panels in place in front of the big screen, and a second pair forming forward wings outside the speakers. Things improved. Moved the coffee table, things improved. Changed to the new/used Wywires silvers, things improved. Moved the couch back to open some space, switched to classical. Hi Q recording of Rimsky Korsakov Capriccio Espagnol. Took out the leather couch, moved in a cloth covered love seat. Things improved. More space, more detail. Changing the seating furniture is clearly an improvement.
Next turned out the lights, and poured myself a hot cup of coffee. Don't know if the music was better, but I enjoyed it more.
Everything makes a difference... :thumb:
Interesting you should mention Jennifer Warnes The Hunter. I use a few tracks on that when I need to get into “reviewer” mode when I’ve made some changes. It’s good to hear you got some good results making some simple changes. Acoustic panels are next after I’m done with resonance control...
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The Hunter has been a standard for evaluation since Danny Richie introduced me to it in the early 2000's. But I just got the vinyl a year or so ago- it's got some sounds that the digital is missing. I keep acoustic panels behind the speakers full time... 6 inches of Corning 703 covered by a Persian rug. The diffraction goes up and down.
And Dave, I knew I was quoting you when I typed it... :thumb:
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I had a professor in engineering school who. Used a water spigot as a paradigm for the operation of a transistor or a triode. He said imagine a water valve whose flow was controlled by some sort of low water pressure. If that low pressure opened and closed the valve then the output flow would be exactly analogous to the input pressure except it would be boosted to a higher pressure that would be dependent on the pressure being delivered to the house by the city water department. This is exactly the same as a small voltage signal applied to the base of a transistor controlling the flow of the higher voltage between the collector and the emitter. (Highly simplified but it makes the point.)
He then went back to thewater flow example and said however, it is easy to see that you will only get a perfect replica at higher pressure if the pressure from the city water department is perfectly stable, because if there are any fluctuations in the city water pressure then the output flow would be a combination of the valve fluctuations drive by the input plus any fluctuations in the city water pressure and therefore the output pressure would never be a prefect analogy of the input with gain.
He then went back to electricity and said this is why power supply design is so important, because any deviations from pure dc in your amplifier design will ultimately find there way into your output as distortion.
I think we all know now that even good power supplies can do just so much and anything we can do to give them cleaner power to start with can only improve their operation and that of our systems as a whole.
That professor was Dr Edward Kaffreson and he was by far the best engineering teacher I ever had. His goal was not to get you the blindly crank out math equations the produced the “right” answer, but rather he was always more concerned the you understood how and why a circuit I did what it did. He was happier to hear you explain some in English than to see you prove it mathematically. Took every class I could with him.
The only other teacher I had that came close to him was a lab teacher by the name of Val Sanford who had just retired from Grumman as the Chief Test Engineer for the Lunar Module program. Val used to yell at us when we tried to run equations in the lab. He used to say “You can let the PhD professors teach you how to solve textbook problems, let me teach you how to be a real engineer. If we took did 30 minutes of math to size every resistor in the Apollo program we wouldn’t have made it to the moon until the year 2525.” One of my most exciting moments at NYIT was when I got into Val’s Control System labs. Who better to teach you about control system than the Chief Test Engineer for the Lunar Module? It was a great class.
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I picked up two pairs of Wywires RCA interconnects a few days ago. I haven't really had a chance to listen to them today, but I've got a friend coming over tomorrow, bringing some Audioquest IC's so I needed to get cracking.
My wife is out of town, so lots of things are possible. I started with a really nice LP, Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter". Just threw it on the table, kept my old IC's in, no diffusion in place, coffee table in front of leather couch... nothing optimized, and it sounded like it. My line sources can overpower the room easily, and the song "Way Down Deep" just did its boomy thing at about 120Hz.
So I put the diffusor panels in place in front of the big screen, and a second pair forming forward wings outside the speakers. Things improved. Moved the coffee table, things improved. Changed to the new/used Wywires silvers, things improved. Moved the couch back to open some space, switched to classical. Hi Q recording of Rimsky Korsakov Capriccio Espagnol. Took out the leather couch, moved in a cloth covered love seat. Things improved. More space, more detail. Changing the seating furniture is clearly an improvement.
Next turned out the lights, and poured myself a hot cup of coffee. Don't know if the music was better, but I enjoyed it more.
Everything makes a difference... :thumb:
Interesting you should mention Jennifer Warnes The Hunter. I use a few tracks on that when I need to get into “reviewer” mode when I’ve made some changes. It’s good to hear you got some good results making some simple changes. Acoustic panels are next after I’m done with resonance control...
Great album. Good for equipment evaluation, but I can sit down dim the lights and really enjoy it from a musical perspective as well.
Not many albums arcane play well on both sides of that fence.
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The Hunter has been a standard for evaluation since Danny Richie introduced me to it in the early 2000's. But I just got the vinyl a year or so ago- it's got some sounds that the digital is missing. I keep acoustic panels behind the speakers full time... 6 inches of Corning 703 covered by a Persian rug. The diffraction goes up and down.
And Dave, I knew I was quoting you when I typed it... :thumb:
That is an album I’d really enjoy hearing, but I sold my TT and it’s in the process of being revived by the new owner in so. California. One of my favorite songs for evaluation is Lights of Lousianne. May have a listen later this evening :thumb:
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I had a professor in engineering school who. Used a water spigot as a paradigm for the operation of a transistor or a triode. He said imagine a water valve whose flow was controlled by some sort of low water pressure. If that low pressure opened and closed the valve then the output flow would be exactly analogous to the input pressure except it would be boosted to a higher pressure that would be dependent on the pressure being delivered to the house by the city water department. This is exactly the same as a small voltage signal applied to the base of a transistor controlling the flow of the higher voltage between the collector and the emitter. (Highly simplified but it makes the point.)
He then went back to thewater flow example and said however, it is easy to see that you will only get a perfect replica at higher pressure if the pressure from the city water department is perfectly stable, because if there are any fluctuations in the city water pressure then the output flow would be a combination of the valve fluctuations drive by the input plus any fluctuations in the city water pressure and therefore the output pressure would never be a prefect analogy of the input with gain.
He then went back to electricity and said this is why power supply design is so important, because any deviations from pure dc in your amplifier design will ultimately find there way into your output as distortion.
I think we all know now that even good power supplies can do just so much and anything we can do to give them cleaner power to start with can only improve their operation and that of our systems as a whole.
That professor was Dr Edward Kaffreson and he was by far the best engineering teacher I ever had. His goal was not to get you the blindly crank out math equations the produced the “right” answer, but rather he was always more concerned the you understood how and why a circuit I did what it did. He was happier to hear you explain some in English than to see you prove it mathematically. Took every class I could with him.
The only other teacher I had that came close to him was a lab teacher by the name of Val Sanford who had just retired from Grumman as the Chief Test Engineer for the Lunar Module program. Val used to yell at us when we tried to run equations in the lab. He used to say “You can let the PhD professors teach you how to solve textbook problems, let me teach you how to be a real engineer. If we took did 30 minutes of math to size every resistor in the Apollo program we wouldn’t have made it to the moon until the year 2525.” One of my most exciting moments at NYIT was when I got into Val’s Control System labs. Who better to teach you about control system than the Chief Test Engineer for the Lunar Module? It was a great class.
Great story, Tom. Thx
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Great find Scot. Yes everythingie makes a difference. Enjoy !!
charles
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All of the sequence I went through were things I'd notice before, but it always gets me that moving that leather couch and replacing it with a lower back, cloth stuffed love seat is soooooo noticeable. Usually I don't bother, but I should. It's one of those things that gets the stink eye from the wife. No complaints though. She lives with huge absorbers and large cylinder corner traps until the book club ladies come to call.
-
I picked up two pairs of Wywires RCA interconnects a few days ago. I haven't really had a chance to listen to them today, but I've got a friend coming over tomorrow, bringing some Audioquest IC's so I needed to get cracking.
My wife is out of town, so lots of things are possible. I started with a really nice LP, Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter". Just threw it on the table, kept my old IC's in, no diffusion in place, coffee table in front of leather couch... nothing optimized, and it sounded like it. My line sources can overpower the room easily, and the song "Way Down Deep" just did its boomy thing at about 120Hz.
So I put the diffusor panels in place in front of the big screen, and a second pair forming forward wings outside the speakers. Things improved. Moved the coffee table, things improved. Changed to the new/used Wywires silvers, things improved. Moved the couch back to open some space, switched to classical. Hi Q recording of Rimsky Korsakov Capriccio Espagnol. Took out the leather couch, moved in a cloth covered love seat. Things improved. More space, more detail. Changing the seating furniture is clearly an improvement.
Next turned out the lights, and poured myself a hot cup of coffee. Don't know if the music was better, but I enjoyed it more.
Everything makes a difference... :thumb:
I’m hoping you can elaborate on your issues at 120 hz. How were you able to zero in on that? I have not (yet) gotten into buying a mic and software.
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When I first built the LS9 speakers, I did a lot of experimenting for best positioning. Not long after I picked up one of if not the first HAL MS-1 server. Rich had set it up with Foobar 2000, which had an option showing dB output at frequency. I don't remember the jazz piece, but the bass ran down a scale from about 170 Hz to around 60 Hz. The screen showed an even output down the scale, but the room clearly boomed from about 125 to 115Hz. You couldn't miss it. Sort of an effect like
dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum.
The interesting thing was that although I built and moved lots of absorption around, setting diffusors in the corners in front of the bass traps helped the most- not the traditional roll of them.
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When I first built the LS9 speakers, I did a lot of experimenting for best positioning. Not long after I picked up one of if not the first HAL MS-1 server. Rich had set it up with Foobar 2000, which had an option showing dB output at frequency. I don't remember the jazz piece, but the bass ran down a scale from about 170 Hz to around 60 Hz. The screen showed an even output down the scale, but the room clearly boomed from about 125 to 115Hz. You couldn't miss it. Sort of an effect like
dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum.
The interesting thing was that although I built and moved lots of absorption around, setting diffusors in the corners in front of the bass traps helped the most- not the traditional roll of them.
Thanks, Scott. Another area I need to explore...
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The Hunter has been a standard for evaluation since Danny Richie introduced me to it in the early 2000's. But I just got the vinyl a year or so ago- it's got some sounds that the digital is missing. I keep acoustic panels behind the speakers full time... 6 inches of Corning 703 covered by a Persian rug. The diffraction goes up and down.
And Dave, I knew I was quoting you when I typed it... :thumb:
That is an album I’d really enjoy hearing, but I sold my TT and it’s in the process of being revived by the new owner in so. California. One of my favorite songs for evaluation is Lights of Lousianne. May have a listen later this evening :thumb:
No doubt Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter" is a well recorded studio album with great session musicians. It reminds me of a Steely Dan album but with with a female singer... Personally, I'm not a fan of synthesized drums & special effects... Listened to it last night in its entirety (Impex 180g LP).
I like real analogue recordings, like the ones Rudy Van Gelder recorded in his home in NJ... Goosebumps... or a very simple recording using a portable Ampex tube tape recorder like this one...
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/412PKXR9TXL.jpg)
They said Sonny Boy had very large feet. You can hear his leather soles slapping the wood stage in an empty night club in Copenhagen in 1963. Also, his "simultaneous" harp playing and singing... does he swallow his harmonica??? Also, someone opens the club door & a bus drives by... Cool!
Cheers,
Pete
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All of the sequence I went through were things I'd notice before, but it always gets me that moving that leather couch and replacing it with a lower back, cloth stuffed love seat is soooooo noticeable. Usually I don't bother, but I should. It's one of those things that gets the stink eye from the wife. No complaints though. She lives with huge absorbers and large cylinder corner traps until the book club ladies come to call.
Was reading a comment one day from a fellow audiophile who said he had reflections off leather chair. Covered wit a blanket all gone. Mine is now covered.
charles
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The Hunter has been a standard for evaluation since Danny Richie introduced me to it in the early 2000's. But I just got the vinyl a year or so ago- it's got some sounds that the digital is missing. I keep acoustic panels behind the speakers full time... 6 inches of Corning 703 covered by a Persian rug. The diffraction goes up and down.
And Dave, I knew I was quoting you when I typed it... :thumb:
That is an album I’d really enjoy hearing, but I sold my TT and it’s in the process of being revived by the new owner in so. California. One of my favorite songs for evaluation is Lights of Lousianne. May have a listen later this evening :thumb:
No doubt Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter" is a well recorded studio album with great session musicians. It reminds me of a Steely Dan album but with with a female singer... Personally, I'm not a fan of synthesized drums & special effects... Listened to it last night in its entirety (Impex 180g LP).
I like real analogue recordings, like the ones Rudy Van Gelder recorded in his home in NJ... Goosebumps... or a very simple recording using a portable Ampex tube tape recorder like this one...
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/412PKXR9TXL.jpg)
They said Sonny Boy had very large feet. You can hear his leather soles slapping the wood stage in an empty night club in Copenhagen in 1963. Also, his "simultaneous" harp playing and singing... does he swallow his harmonica??? Also, someone opens the club door & a bus drives by... Cool!
Cheers,
Pete
Spot on Pete. That door closing can be heard on CD as well.
charles
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All of the sequence I went through were things I'd notice before, but it always gets me that moving that leather couch and replacing it with a lower back, cloth stuffed love seat is soooooo noticeable. Usually I don't bother, but I should. It's one of those things that gets the stink eye from the wife. No complaints though. She lives with huge absorbers and large cylinder corner traps until the book club ladies come to call.
Was reading a comment one day from a fellow audiophile who said he had reflections off leather chair. Covered wit a blanket all gone. Mine is now covered.
charles
Quite surprising to me regarding leather vs cloth couch. Glad my leather couch is in the TV room. Video I don’t much care about :roll:
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The Hunter has been a standard for evaluation since Danny Richie introduced me to it in the early 2000's. But I just got the vinyl a year or so ago- it's got some sounds that the digital is missing. I keep acoustic panels behind the speakers full time... 6 inches of Corning 703 covered by a Persian rug. The diffraction goes up and down.
And Dave, I knew I was quoting you when I typed it... :thumb:
A lot of great harp players are circular breathers and can and hum (sing?) at the same time.
There are the Tibetan overtone singers that can produce 2 or 3 distinct tones.
That is an album I’d really enjoy hearing, but I sold my TT and it’s in the process of being revived by the new owner in so. California. One of my favorite songs for evaluation is Lights of Lousianne. May have a listen later this evening :thumb:
No doubt Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter" is a well recorded studio album with great session musicians. It reminds me of a Steely Dan album but with with a female singer... Personally, I'm not a fan of synthesized drums & special effects... Listened to it last night in its entirety (Impex 180g LP).
I like real analogue recordings, like the ones Rudy Van Gelder recorded in his home in NJ... Goosebumps... or a very simple recording using a portable Ampex tube tape recorder like this one...
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/412PKXR9TXL.jpg)
They said Sonny Boy had very large feet. You can hear his leather soles slapping the wood stage in an empty night club in Copenhagen in 1963. Also, his "simultaneous" harp playing and singing... does he swallow his harmonica??? Also, someone opens the club door & a bus drives by... Cool!
Cheers,
Pete
Spot on Pete. That door closing can be heard on CD as well.
charles
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I’ve mentioned this in another thread or two, but the subject line of “everything makes a difference” is so appropriate, so I’ll post it here.
A few months ago, I was thinking I’d upgrade the ethernet cable on my ASUS wireless router and also get a 19v dedicated power supply for it as well. I’ve had the upgraded ethernet cable for a bit and finally got the correct size for the connector on the dc power supply cable. Now, I’ve read lots of naysayer comments about this stuff after doing searches for it. Well, I’m here to tell you that it made a very significant difference. I wouldn’t have thought it… it’s just a power supply and for a wireless router at that. But I’ve (happily) been proven wrong. The result is:
1) a very, very low noise floor
2) a beautifully holographic presentation and maxxed out detail retrieval imo
3) glare/harshness that I’ve been complaining about for ages is at least 50% reduced, maybe up to 75%
4) a more accurate representation of the recording venue
To get to this point, within the last number of months, I’ve put sand in the speaker stands, used various Herbie’s gizmos/things and cork anti-vibration pads. I also recently bought a used Supratek Chardonnay preamp. It’s a 2 chassis unit, very quiet….a terrific preamp and underpriced too imho.
There aren’t any more significant tweaks to try, so the next step is to get a mic and analyze the living room and make a few, simple/basic and hopefully not too expensive acoustic improvements. I already have the REW software downloaded on my Mac laptop. As it’s my living room, I’m not going to get carried away with room treatments.
It’s been a heck of a journey to get to this point, but it’s sure been worth it. It helps to have an open mind and be willing to listen to guys here who have traveled this road before me. Thanks, guys :thumb:
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I’ve mentioned this in another thread or two, but the subject line of “everything makes a difference” is so appropriate, so I’ll post it here.
A few months ago, I was thinking I’d upgrade the ethernet cable on my ASUS wireless router and also get a 19v dedicated power supply for it as well. I’ve had the upgraded ethernet cable for a bit and finally got the correct size for the connector on the dc power supply cable. Now, I’ve read lots of naysayer comments about this stuff after doing searches for it. Well, I’m here to tell you that it made a very significant difference. I wouldn’t have thought it… it’s just a power supply and for a wireless router at that. But I’ve (happily) been proven wrong. The result is:
1) a very, very low noise floor
2) a beautifully holographic presentation and maxxed out detail retrieval imo
3) glare/harshness that I’ve been complaining about for ages is at least 50% reduced, maybe up to 75%
4) a more accurate representation of the recording venue
To get to this point, within the last number of months, I’ve put sand in the speaker stands, used various Herbie’s gizmos/things and cork anti-vibration pads. I also recently bought a used Supratek Chardonnay preamp. It’s a 2 chassis unit, very quiet….a terrific preamp and underpriced too imho.
There aren’t any more significant tweaks to try, so the next step is to get a mic and analyze the living room and make a few, simple/basic and hopefully not too expensive acoustic improvements. I already have the REW software downloaded on my Mac laptop. As it’s my living room, I’m not going to get carried away with room treatments.
It’s been a heck of a journey to get to this point, but it’s sure been worth it. It helps to have an open mind and be willing to listen to guys here who have traveled this road before me. Thanks, guys :thumb:
:thumb: I know I speak for others,too. It is always a pleasure to help another improve their joy of one of God's great gifts. Like a favorite of mine here says:
" Remember it's all about the music........."
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Agree. Even a 10 inch piece of wire in the DAC power supply makes a sonic difference. 6n pure sure "sounds" different than typical off the shelf 3n pure. Same with ICs, speaker wire. Just one metal oxide resistor in the entire system can significantly degrade the music.
Cheers
steve
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Steve, since you don't like metal oxide resistors in circuits, I assume you prefer carbon resistors in amplifier design. How do you describe the difference in sound?
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Steve, since you don't like metal oxide resistors in circuits, I assume you prefer carbon resistors in amplifier design. How do you describe the difference in sound?
I freely let everyone know what resistors I use. After I replaced the two metal oxide resistors from years ago (my sight not good) in each crossover with a Vishay pot, Holco, and Resista, the improvement was incredible. I am to
1 part in a million potentiometer adjustment on the speaker crossover. Incredible intimacy, naturalness, inner detail.
Here is a partial article I wrote and copyrighted, using a couple of magazine reviews of resistors. As one can see, carbons and metal oxides are not that good. Even a few metal films leave something to be desired.
"Sonic Comparisons of Resistors, Links to Capacitor Articles:
Below are reprints of two articles comparing different types of resistors, Bulk Foil, Melal Film, Wire Wound, Metal Glaze, Metal Oxide, and Carbon film. While not exhaustive, I think one can get a good general idea of how the different types compare, sonically. Although some metal film types are inferior sounding to carbon types, in general metal films are clearly superior. Since metal films are so abundant, the price has come down considerably. Carbons, on the other hand have gone up in price, since very few, if any, are manufactured in the USA. They are not extensively used because of the high fire risk. I did not find any carbons that were really that accurate, but then some metal films are not either. Now for the articles.
Piece De Resistance, By Martin Coloms:
"A selection of resistors was requested, and those we received were subject to test at two values, 100 ohms and 33k ohms. The 100 ohms were used as the main load resistor for a moving coil cartridge, with a preamp input impedance of 1k ohm. By careful gain calibration, the load effect was assessed in absolute terms, while the resistors were also assessed via a single-presentation method of judging overall sound quality. The 33k ohm types were assessed while used as the main termination for a CD player of low output impedances (100 ohms), the associated preamplifier input impedance being 100k ohms. Again, comparisons were made without a test resistor to assess the degree and type of sonic aberration introduced by the resistors under examination."
"Some earlier listening work has been done; for example, a fabricated metal-film array for a 2w value was compared with an equivalently rated wire-wound (Pot Pourri, Sept '86). In another small test, included in the previously published capacitor comparisons, a few resistors were auditioned as moving-coil cartridge loads. Here the Holco type was compared with carbon composition, carbon-film and low cost metal-film types. Holco won that contest (HFN/RR, Oct '85). In the present test the rarely-used carbon composition types were not included; previously tested examples were unpromising. Wire-wound, several metal-films, metal-glaze, and carbon-film types are represented here, together with the costly bulk-foil designs. Not all types in the survey were available in the 33k ohm value."
"...Compared with other projects, the listening work here was extremely difficult, and as such I would judge it rather less reliable. It is said that resistor sound quality is easier to judge if complete amplifiers are built largely with one type; comparisons are then made more easily as the effects are multiplied. But the scoring for resistor sound is an arbitrary one, and has no connection with that for amplifiers, CD players or cables. It is merely relative."
Interim comment
Whilst the sample is fairly limited, it was interesting that the carbon-film types sounded a little better than some of the metal-films. But Roedenstein's good reputation for an inexpensive metal-film (No. 11) seems well justified. We were fortunate to have the Vishay bulk-foils (No. 10), since these really proved our case, namely that resistors do affect sound quality. The Vishays were significantly nearer the original, helping to show the magnitude of the test loading effects, which were comparatively minor, and also revealing the audible errors' introduced by most of the other resistor types tested.
In general, resistors add a 'glazed' and 'hashy' noise in the treble which seemed to dilute stereo focus. Other effects included as impression of mildly bumpy or lumpy bass, with some forwardness in the midrange and a noticeable loss of depth, ambience and dymanic power. In the case of the latter, some of the resistors under test gave a blander and more lifelss effect to the reproduction.
Results:
1) MFRS, 0.5W, 1% metal-film, by Welwyn.
33k: 33.09, 33.03, 100 ohms: 100.28, 99.81
Sound 70%: thinner lighter sound, depth compression, lowered treble focus.
2) MFR4, 0.25w, 1% metal-film, by Welwyn.
33k: 33.01, 33.01, 100 ohms: 99.61, 100.1
Sound 72.5%: slight improvement in depth and tonal balance.
3) MRS16, 1% metal-film, by Mullard/Philips.
33k: 32.9, 33.04: 100 ohms: 100.05, 100.43
Sound: 75%: mixed reactions at 100 ohm, better banance and improved persepective at 33k.
4) MRS25, 0.6 W, 2% metal-film, from Mullard/Philips.
33k: 33.06, 33.03, 100 ohms: 99.28, 98.89
Sound 77%: a lively sound with better bass but a touch of 'brashness' in the treble.
5) BTF4, .25W, 5% carbon-film, by Dublier.
33k: 33.43, 33.15. 100 ohms: 99.28, 98.89
Sound 72.5%: fair balance, some blandness with a mildly lumpy bass.
6) SFR25, 0.33W, 5% metal-film.
33k: 33.43, 33.15: 100 ohms: 99.02, 99.15.
Sound 80%: a welcome improvement, more dynamic, better balanced, improved focus.
7) CFR50, 0.6W, 5% carbon-film by Neohm.
33k: 33.07, 32.67. 100 ohms: 99.31, 98.95
Suond 77.5%: a good impression of depth, despite some 'glaze' in the treble and slight bass boom.
8) NK3, 0.125W, 2% metal-film, by Corning.
33k: 32.99, 32.74. 100 ohm: 99.90, 100.1
Sound 71%: mild 'glaze' and diffusion in the treble, better depth heard at 100 ohm value.
9) CFR25, 0.25W, 5% carbon-film, by Neohm.
33k: 32.77, 32.95, 100 ohms N/A.
Sound 77%: quite good all-arounder.
10) VSRJ, 0.25W, 0.01% bulk-foil, by Vishay
36k: 36.02, 36.02, 100 ohms: 100.05, 100.06
Sound 94%: an unmistakeably large step nearer to no resistor at all. Clear, tonally balanced, fine depth, negligible aberration.
11) 0.25W, 2%, metal-film, by Roederstein
33k: 32.93, 32.81, 100 ohms: 99.55, 99.84
Sound 82%: strong dynamic sound with fairly good clarity, focus , and depth, but a touch of boom and a trace of 'glazed' treble brightness.
12) W21, 2.5W, 5% wire-wound vitreous, by Welwyn
33k, N/A, 100 ohms: 100.04, 100.07
Sound 86%: some dulling of air and a mild 'wirey' emphasis on string tone; good bass, slightly forward mid, but good clarity, dynamics and depth.
13) RS, 2.5W, 5% wirewound silicone cement coated, CGS
33k: N/A, 100 ohms: 98.7, 99.2
Sound 86%: similar to the above but slightly sweeter, with good instrumental separation. Mildly band limited, faint rolloff at the frequency extremes.
14) Econistor, 0.1%, precision wirewound, non-inductive, by Rhopoint.
33k: N/A: 100 ohms: 100.01, 100.005
Sound 86%: slightly soft bass, good focus, very slightly 'wirey' on strings; mild mid presence, good depth.
15) H8, 0.125W, 0.5% precision metal-film (Holco).
33k: N/A. 100 ohms: 100.31, 100.07
Sound 88%: a very fair copy- neutral, well balanced, clear and clean strings, good depth, slightly soft bass, very mildly defocused, accurate.
16) LR1, 0.25W, 1% metal-film, by Neohm
33k: N/A. 100 ohms: 100.04, 100.42
Sound 73%: some treble brittleness and grain, loss of depth and ambience: bass 'thumpy', loss of focus.
17) RGP0207, 0.5W, 1% metal- glaze, by Neohm.
33k: N/A. 100 ohms: 100.00, 100.12
Sound 76%: a touch forward and bright, but not too brittle or grainy. Fair bass and focus, some loss of depth and dynamics.
18) 'Commercial', 0.5W, 5% carbon-film, from Japan.
33k: N/A. 100 ohms: 98.49, 102.59
Sound 80%: some 'nasality' on violin, but clearer and less grainy than average. Quite good depth, fair bass and reasonable tonal balance.
19) N/A, 0.5W, 5% metal-oxide (obsolete), by Welwyn.
33k: N/A. 100 ohms: 100.10, 102.50
Sound 80%: quite neutral, fairly good depth, with some softening of detail; a touch bland and undynamic.
Hi-Fi News and Record Review, October 1985:
"For interest's sake, some subjective tests were performed on resistors during the capacitor auditioning. Only a few types were tried, more generic than specific, and only in one application, namely as the 100 ohm shunt loading function for an m-c cartridge, as reported on by Christopher Breunig a few months back (HFN/RR June, 1985). The test cartridge was an Empire van den Hul MC1000 and the preamp an SP-8."
"The judgments are arbitrary to some extent, based on the listeners' experience of sound quality 'improvement'. Even if the reader disagrees as to the true meaning of the observation - is it a change or an improvement? - the results do suggest that the resistors differ in their effect on the system's sound quality. Given the minute power and voltage levels involved in the test application, it is highly unlikely that thermal or voltage stress effects- which would result in the nominal resistance being modulated by the signal - are involved."
"We emerged from this brief series of tests feeling that while resistor differences were difficult to identify, significant differences were nevertheless present. The effects may well be diffferent in alternative circuit positions and at different power and voltage levels, but in this application, only the Holco proved capable of loading the cartridge without apparently degrading the sound quality of the SP-8 preamplifier to some extent. The other four resistors were felt to reduce the sound quality sufficiently to make the question of optimum resistive loading for the cartridge irrevelent. They were best omitted altogether."
R1 Make: Holco Score 91%
Type: 100 ohm metal film
Comments: Very small effect; tight precise stereo and good overall control.
R2 Make: RS Components Score 86%
Type: 100 ohm metal film
Comments: Trace of 'muddle'; slight loss of space; a touch of treble grain, and a softer bass.
R3 Make: Roederstein Score 84%
Type: 100 ohm metal film
Comments: Good bass sound, with pleasing depth but a slight grain and 'zzz' in the treble. A slightly 'muzzy' effect in the midrange.
R4 Make: Anonymous Score 70%
Type: 100 ohm carbon film, 1/4 watt
Comments: 'Zitty' defocused sound; 'louder' and mildly fatiguing; grainy treble.
R5 Make: RS Components Score 64%
Type: 100 ohm carbon film, 1/4watt
Comments: Defocused and grainy sound, with a loss of bass definition, stereo depth and focus.
Left out was the Caddock resistors. I performed a test and found the Caddock M-132 to be inferior to the Vishay, Holco, and Roderstein. Sounded dull in comparison.
Other excellent Articles:
On Capacitor Dielectric Materials - A Chemist's View, by Karl A. Weber, Ph.D
Picking Capacitors, by Walter Jung and Richard Marsh
This paper is presented in the interests of the public.
SAS Audio Labs
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Email, sasaudio@omnilec.com
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SAS Audio wishes to thank Svetlana and New Sensor (Sovtek) for allowing us to use their vacuum tube graphics on our site.
* tm, sas audio labs, SAS Audio Labs, SAS AUDIO LABS, SAS AUDIO LABS banner, sasaudio, sas audio, SAS Audio are trademarks of SAS Audio."
copyright©: 12-28-1996 Updated 07-19-2013. All contents of this page article (except Sovtek and Svetlana Tubes) are copyrighted. All layouts of all our components, and term "lead to lead wiring" are copyrighted. All rights reserved. No portion of this article may be reproduced without written permission from Steve Sammet at SAS Audio, Martin Colloms titled "Piece De Resistance"? and the second by "Hi-Fi News and Record Review". SAS Audio Labs is registered with the state of Illilnois. "
I hope this helps the diyer.
cheers
steve
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:shock: This is what I love about this place. You think you know a little, a very little about something, and then you find there's a whole world that you had no clue about.
Steve, thanks for sharing your knowledge. One day, I might clone an amp that Gary Dodd built for me. If I do, I'll have a print out of this page for reference.
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:shock: This is what I love about this place. You think you know a little, a very little about something, and then you find there's a whole world that you had no clue about.
Steve, thanks for sharing your knowledge. One day, I might clone an amp that Gary Dodd built for me. If I do, I'll have a print out of this page for reference.
Your welcome Scott. I just happen to obtain the info myself along with Picking Capacitors by Walter Jung and Richard Marsh around 1980/1 I believe. Some things I have found over the decades:
1. if the design is inferior, a good part will probably not be preferred. That is a shame as some really top notch parts are now extinct.
2. as the design improves, installing a poor part will stick out like a sore thumb. However, the designer may not understand and alter the design to use the inferior part because others deem it excellent. As a result, they give a bad rating to the excellent part. This is particularly true with capacitor comparison articles/posts I have seen on other forum websites.
3. the design is excellent and the excellent parts are appreciated. That is when progress is made.
Cheers and all the best in your endeavors.
steve
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No test on RN resistors? K... and PRP? I can think of some more.
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No test on RN resistors? K... and PRP? I can think of some more.
There are some great resistors that can be chosen for application - ie., fine tuning the sonics of any given circuit.
I do not choose the same resistors for every application. Vishay bulk foils are great in certain applications, but are too squeeky clean for others.
Let me give an example that has very little application to the overall context of AN: guitar amplifiers.
Here are the resitors that I generally use for an amplifier:
Power supply dropping/isolation resistors : Mills - for reliability and very low noise. I NEVER use a MO resistor. They are too noisy and can make a power supply sound "loose"
Plate resistors for voltage amplification stages: PRP or Vishay RN - depends on which stage. for MF they aren't sterile sounding and have very little character
Grid resistors and cathode bias for voltage amplification stages - Takman REX carbon films - that carbon warmth (distortion) without carbon comp noise and hiss in very high gain stages
Cathode bias in output stages - depends on the output tube and whether I want an amp that has that output stage "grind" . Often I use an Ohmite 42 series 2W or a Mills 5W chosen for application and reliability.
Grid stoppers - usually Takman 1W REX (sometimes paralleled for reliability)
Pots are either CTS carbon film (I don't particularly care for them, but players want
that "CTS sound") or Bourns plastics for reliability.
But even with this, applications often dictate different choices. A Fender 5E3 Deluxe build can be voiced for clean(ish - they are never "clean, per se') or incredibly dirty just through resistor choice.
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No test on RN resistors? K... and PRP? I can think of some more.
Sorry Folsom. The only explanation I have is the articles I quoted are so old. I don't know when some of the resistors started production.
If this helps, I have been recently testing the PRP resistors in my crossovers (copper leads) and so far found them right up there with Holcos and Resistas. The Vishay bulk foils, naked, are incredible, but expensive and require top notch design and associated parts. They are also only rated 0,6 watts, so not power type.
Cheers.
steve