AudioNervosa
Self Medicating => General DIY => Topic started by: rollo on January 22, 2019, 10:34:36 AM
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A worthwhile project. Folsom, Dave, Steve somebody get on it it will be a seller and very useful tool. Should break in cables AND components.
charles
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Are you willing to fund it?
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Understand about the funding part, but it’s a great idea. Over the years I would have used it repeatedly.
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I will post the controversial answer- if you don’t like it when you first try it IN YOUR SYSTEM, no amount of break-in is going to change that. I’ve had many pieces of equipment, many that I wanted to like, but never one that transformed itself, over a period of time, into something manifestly different.
I see the the hours posted on forums about break-in times, and think to myself, there aren’t that many hours in a day to be doing that.
The second part of that joke is how many people, when selling equipment, usually say something along the lines of- low hours, hardly used, only in second system, etc., etc.
In my opinion, there are way too many variables to make a judgement about break-in affecting sound in a home environment.
I’m not a measurements guy; I believe that I might enjoy a piece of gear that measures poorly- but why would a manufacturer knowingly put out a product that takes 250-500 hours of break-in to sound good? This would mean that they tested various capacitors, power supplies, speaker drivers, wire, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum. There are not enough hours in the day.
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I don’t share that opinion at all. There is break in. Ya it can take a couple hundred hours. (Two weeks straighht) but sometimes 20hrs is enough.
I have heard things go from meh to great.
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It seems a lot of effort to listen to something you don’t care for waiting for it to morph into something you do. Again, why would a manufacture send out something that doesn’t sound good, and hope for the best?
I’m NOT saying break-in isn’t real, just that it won’t transform something undesirable into something that is.
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I make things, break them in, then judge. This is well accepted in the industry.
Honestly if you don't have the patients or perseverance for the annoyances of things like this, you can't possibly enjoy vinyl. I think you've got the wrong hobby. Audiophile is about pain in pocket book, pain in the time spent, pain in the back trying to move the shit around, pain in the ear for things that don't work out right, pain everything... but with the goal of a higher level of bliss. It's a superb hobby because it's relentless. Even if your stereo is PERFECT, it takes time to get good vinyl, clean it, maintain it... This isn’t the industry for instant gratification.
Folsom is for hire for designing things... Mr Rollo. Just saying.
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Questions:
Does number of watts affect the burn in time? For example, if I rig a 100w light/fan/thingy to a new power cord vs I rig a 7w light/fan/thingy, does the wattage draw influence the burn in time?
What contraption can burn in ICs or speaker cables? A short time before I came to Taiwan, I bought a pair of Steve's RCA cables. It took forever to burn them in (for various reason). If I had had a 'cables burn in' contraption, I could have burned them in well before I brought them to Taiwan.
You can probably guess that I'm not an electricity wiz nor am I an engineer.
Michael
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My Antelope dac took forever to completely break in....up to 500 hours. I had read those comments online and didn’t think that could be....but it was true. To be listenable, it took about 300 and I kept track of the hours. It was a royal pita. That’s why if someone had a breakin service to do some of this work, believe me I’d pay for the service.
The Antelope was by far the worst component ever for break in.
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Funding ? How much would ya need to make prototype for AN members to use.
charles
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I dunno yet. Sometimes a couple versions are needed to finalize.
I am picturing something that can burn in source, preamp, IC’s, speaker cables, and power cords depending on how it’s hooked up. It won’t be super small because it would have jacks for all of it. And you could do multiple at a time.
Does it need an enclosure? That’ll add quiet a bit.
I am thinking maybe it could do 4 sets of IC’s at a time. 2 speaker cable sets. 4 powercords. And/or two amps, 4 preamps, and 4 sources.
It’ll have a lot of switches.
A DIY person can save money by only putting in a few switches and connectors. For consumer or dealer they’ll probably want it all, and maybe more than one.
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It could easily do 2 phono preamps as well.
It becomes pretty expensive when making it capable of burning in amplifiers because the resistors cost A LOT. They're a risk factor when connecting an external amp (cheap with the internal one I'd use). I can't just pass the extra power because it would make the amp unstable.
Charles, would you really be wanting a DIY version??? or something you can use as a dealer? I think as a dealer it makes a lot more sense. An enclosure would be big, and need active cooling if it can do big amps.
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Should it be capable of doing speakers as well? I'm only looking at possibly 50w per channel internal amp.
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Or one could simply put one of the many break in discs on the market into your CD player and set it on repeat......... :-k
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51SLpq9BDqL._SX355_.jpg)
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Here is what I have been doing for a few years, It covers all the bases and I don't think anyone makes anything that would work better, or do anything different.
For cables I use
Velleman HPG1 1Mhz Pocket Function Generatorttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006YTWMZW (http://ttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006YTWMZW) $100
STEREO LINE PRE-AMPLIFIERhttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I01ZNUS (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I01ZNUS) $36
The Function generator lets you do sweeps up and down from anything from 1hz to 10Mhz, with different sign waves too. couple it with the line amplifier used to increase the gain I can get output to over 7V on a cable. so over 3x the 2V that line level normal sees. I have a pair of RCA connectors that I soldered a 5watt 10K resistor to them, so the ends of the cable get the plug to simulate the load.
For power cables I have a Reef Tank that uses 1200 Watts of lighting for 9 hours everyday, so I just swap out the cable for the lights with a High end power cable and let it literally cook for a few days. I can tell the power cables that are not made to handle hi powered equipment as they get warm in a few hours. the ones that are a proper gauge never do.
For equipment just run a playlist on repeat. I have a Hagerman iRIAA2 - Inverse RIAA Filter https://www.haglabs.com/collections/accessories/products/iriaa2-inverse-riaa-filter (https://www.haglabs.com/collections/accessories/products/iriaa2-inverse-riaa-filter) that I use for Phono stages.
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Or one could simply put one of the many break in discs on the market into your CD player and set it on repeat......... :-k
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51SLpq9BDqL._SX355_.jpg)
Yes however adding hundreds of hours on the laser may not be prudent.
charles
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Wow that died so fast I didn't even get any replies. I can't come up with a cost analysis for something without knowing what it is...
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Folsom. Just need a unit for cable and Cap break in. For components I use a cheap CD player.
charles
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Speaker cable or just IC's?
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Or one could simply put one of the many break in discs on the market into your CD player and set it on repeat......... :-k
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51SLpq9BDqL._SX355_.jpg)
Or just rip the test/burn-in CD to WAV files and play them with a PC to DAC or other file player. Saves a lot of laser and motor wear.
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Speaker cable or just IC's?
Both Folsom thanks.
charles
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Ok, and you want it to have it's own signal source? And does it need an enclosure?
Do you solder?
Right now I'm thinking it'd mostly be soldering RCA jacks, and some ribbon cable stuff. For speaker cable burn in it's pretty easy to just use off the shelf classD amps that only need a + psu. The RCA cords need a buffer on top of the source for signal to make sure you can burn in several.
Is 4 total rca cables and 2 pairs of speaker cables enough, or should it be more?
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A worthwhile project. Folsom, Dave, Steve somebody get on it it will be a seller and very useful tool. Should break in cables AND components.
charles
Hi Charles,
It would be quite expensive to provide a nice looking, quality product. A descent, universal
design would require a variable oscillator, high powered output circuit, transformers, various
loads, various connectors etc. etc.
For small capacitors, interconnect cables etc, I simply use my Hewlett Packard Signal Generator,
which is capable of 5hz up to 600khz, up to 10s of ma., and high amplitude.
Lately, for preamplifiers, SS DACs etc, I simply power on my system, and let the
computer provide 10 hour segments of dynamic musical classics from YouTube. I just let
my tube amplifier break in normally, no special techniques due to limited output tube life.
One could remove the output tubes and still break in the coupling capacitors.
For the phono stage, I use rca plugs with the center pin wire sticking out, it is not grounded.
It will pickup 60hz present in the room, and the cartridge needle doesn't wear.
cheers
steve
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You might find a used Wally Phono break-in box if you need one. He also made a cable break-in box that would work.
http://www.simplyblack.net/WVC/tools/burn-pictures.html
Hagerman also makes an iRIAA board that will work as well.
https://hagerman-audio-labs.myshopify.com/products/iriaa2-inverse-riaa-filter
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I will post the controversial answer- if you don’t like it when you first try it IN YOUR SYSTEM, no amount of break-in is going to change that. I’ve had many pieces of equipment, many that I wanted to like, but never one that transformed itself, over a period of time, into something manifestly different.
I see the the hours posted on forums about break-in times, and think to myself, there aren’t that many hours in a day to be doing that.
The second part of that joke is how many people, when selling equipment, usually say something along the lines of- low hours, hardly used, only in second system, etc., etc.
In my opinion, there are way too many variables to make a judgement about break-in affecting sound in a home environment.
I’m not a measurements guy; I believe that I might enjoy a piece of gear that measures poorly- but why would a manufacturer knowingly put out a product that takes 250-500 hours of break-in to sound good? This would mean that they tested various capacitors, power supplies, speaker drivers, wire, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum. There are not enough hours in the day.
Two blatant exceptions to your opinions:
Furutech GTX NCF - a paranoid, bipolar schizophrenic during a lengthy break
in
Dayton PS220 single cone driver - 200 hours and it starts to sound good
Just sayin'
=;
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Buy used
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Buy used
Wow, do you have anymore sage advice? :roll:
I've had things that did not sound good until they'd been on through the night. I wish it were not so... I wish philosophy could be strong, but it isn't.
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Wow, do you have anymore sage advice? :roll:
Nope.
If "burned in" stuff sounds better, buy used. Save money and suffering.
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Years ago I used a very high power SS receiver. I mis-tuned it to a station until the breakup was really nasty to generate every harmonic available. I would attach the Whatever was being broken in and terminate that component with a very high wattage resistive load appropriate for the component. Digital = 75 - 80 ohms. Speaker cables = 8 ohms. Interconnects = 10K to 250K depending upon application.
The most fun was listening to crossover capacitors sing a song while being broken in at 4 - 8 ohms along with the input signal.
I now use a different scheme and will post pictures tomorrow if I can get this evil format to allow me to post pictures. Ever since I upgraded to OSX Mojave I’ve had numerous problems...
Power cables are broken in on a proprietary fixture. I will not divulge what it is. It is also used to break in speaker cables and my BUSS-Line. I don’t kiss and tell :-P [-X [-X
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A capacitor burn-in device would have saved me a lot of earache after I had caps in my cd player upgraded to Mundorfs .
I think the caps needed some 300-400 hours to sound good.
The new caps sounded very detailed but polite at first listen. After about 50 hours the sound was very shrill and thin. After a few hundred hours, they seemed to settled down, only to sound harsh again.
I was warned about the long burn-in, but I went back to the dealer anyway to complain about the bad sound! These things had a very Jekyll and Hyde personality while burning in.
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A capacitor burn-in device would have saved me a lot of earache after I had caps in my cd player upgraded to Mundorfs .
I think the caps needed some 300-400 hours to sound good.
The new caps sounded very detailed but polite at first listen. After about 50 hours the sound was very shrill and thin. After a few hundred hours, they seemed to settled down, only to sound harsh again.
I was warned about the long burn-in, but I went back to the dealer anyway to complain about the bad sound! These things had a very Jekyll and Hyde personality while burning in.
yes, sir. I’ve had the same experience. Dr. J (some of you know who he is) told me that one of his caps would sound great when first installed. After that it would (back up and you will hate them for about 200 - 300 hours) and he was absolutely correct. They did and I did. When they finally broke in my preamp sounded amazing. It was like a new component. I was wrong. There were two very special fabulous components in my system: 2 amazing .22 ufd coupling capacitors that transformed my system. Like a fool I sold that pre and have kicked myself for years for being stoopud.
Arrggghhhhh...
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So is breaking in a capacitor simply an act of loading and unloading charges? Does frequency matter? Does simply putting a cap in parallel to a 60 Hz AC line break it in? What are the changes? Does the dielectric change physically or chemically?
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A capacitor burn-in device would have saved me a lot of earache after I had caps in my cd player upgraded to Mundorfs .
I think the caps needed some 300-400 hours to sound good.
The new caps sounded very detailed but polite at first listen. After about 50 hours the sound was very shrill and thin. After a few hundred hours, they seemed to settled down, only to sound harsh again.
I was warned about the long burn-in, but I went back to the dealer anyway to complain about the bad sound! These things had a very Jekyll and Hyde personality while burning in.
yes, sir. I’ve had the same experience. Dr. J (some of you know who he is) told me that one of his caps would sound great when first installed. After that it would (back up and you will hate them for about 200 - 300 hours) and he was absolutely correct. They did and I did. When they finally broke in my preamp sounded amazing. It was like a new component. I was wrong. There were two very special fabulous components in my system: 2 amazing .22 ufd coupling capacitors that transformed my system. Like a fool I sold that pre and have kicked myself for years for being stoopud.
Arrggghhhhh...
Argh is right you stubborn so and so :duh :rofl: :rofl: Trying to tell you Engineering types about break-in. Duelunds and VH are the longest to break-in.
W have been breaking in caps on a Hagerman Frybaby. 500 hours minimum.
charles