AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: pacifico on January 20, 2007, 07:16:32 PM
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I am just wondering what everyone's general opinion is on this. Is gear getting better, worse or staying the same. I know this is a very subjective question but is the gear from the 70s as good, worse or better than what's out there now. Of course, what is some of your favorite stuff from that era?
I will post this in the speakers section too. Please keep this specific to amplifiers and since this is in the review section of this site, discuss specific examples as appropriate.
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I have always been a fan of 70's vintage Marantz and Harmon Kardon receivers. Lot's of iron, built like tanks, and generally good FM reception compared to today's receivers. Nothing like analog!!
NB
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I have always been a fan of 70's vintage Marantz and Harmon Kardon receivers. Lot's of iron, built like tanks, and generally good FM reception compared to today's receivers. Nothing like analog!!
NB
i have owned several HK recievers dating from the 1960s up until the early 1990s and i used to pair them with Various Polk Audio loudspeakers. not the mass market Polks but the ones that were only available in fine high end shops around Baltimore and Annapolis at the time.Matt Polk was a College student at the Johns Hopkins Institute for Non destructive testing when he and his friend started Polk Audio out of a Humble two Car Garage in Baltimore.thanks....WCW III
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The 70's....that was awhile ago. What I remember....Fisher, Scott, HK, and Dynaco...quiet a few friends had Dynaco.
IMO....most of todays equipment is better....made better, and with much better parts.
My first "real" stereo was a Pioneer....http://www.classicaudio.com/value/pio/SX1010.html
Still have it...packed away in the basement. I matched it up with Advent speakers....sounded good to me at that time..... :D
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My first decent stereo was a Harmon tube integrated, can't remember the model, but this was '71 and it was a few years old. It wasn't very powerful at all, but had blue "on" light (!) and sounded nice with my AR4x speakers and PE (Perpetuum Ebner, or something) turntable and Shure M91ED, I think, cartridge. The PE was a decent table of the Dual type, but a little better.
I also had a Dynaco SCA 35 integrated around the same time.
As with speakers, I think there's no question that amps are getting much better, over the last 15 - 20 years especially.
For me the turning point - the first time I really believed there was any advantage to any one amp over another with similar specs - was the Mission Cyrus I that the salesman almost forced me to take home to compare with the NAD I had which was rated at 3 times the power.
When I first turned it on and put a record on I went to the kitchen to make some coffee and heard the difference even from there. When I came back into the living room I could hardly believe my ears. There was no question within the first 30 seconds that I would be buying it, even though I would be trading down, from a recently bought new amp with, as I say, 3 times the power.
Also, for the previous year I had been wondering what was "wrong" with my system. This amp showed me there was really nothing wrong - now!
From then on I was like an evangelist to all my musician friends, exhorting them to get a decent amp and not waste their time with all the other system details until they had one.
I guess I still follow that general principle, except I believe the speakers are a little more important still.
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My favorite gear of the 70's was Crown DC-150 Power amp with Crown IC-150 pre-amp along with 15 Altec Lansing bi-flex (420A) in custom cabinets. Could make waves in the toilet bowl with these babys.
I do miss this days.
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Hey, I used a Crown IC-150 pre-amp for a while in the 70's. :)
I really lusted after the Crown tape decks...big ass 10" reels; 15"ps; and they also had those cool walnut cabinets as options. 8)
My favorite stereo shop back then carried (3) electronic brands: Crown, MacIntosh, and Marantz. 8-[ . I almost peed myself in that shop a few times.
:lol:
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79' I think. My first hi-end amp, an Audio Research 52b, followed closely by my first Maggies.
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I moved from Sansui and AR 3a's to citation gear,(pre & amp) and early Polk Audio speakers :D
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Just bought a fully updated APT-Holman preamp (circa 1978 or so). This was the golden age of vinyl before being thrown off the CD cliff and most, if not all preamps had decent vinyl stages (pre-CD era).
The APT-Holman (lovingly made by the man that later brought the world THX - stands for Tomlinson Holman EXperience ) had a particularly good and quiet one with lots of cartridge capacitance loading options and good headphone outs, too.
I'm pumped, but I've had nothing but poor results with SS preamps in the past 3 years....but I just keep trying 'cause I'm thick in da' head :lol:
Actually, it'll be paired with monoblock tube amps - seems the chain does need tubes somewhere for music to be fully enjoyed (to me)
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I have an Apt Holman pre, too. I used it as a studio pre from '89 to '98. Now it functions as an auxiliary preamp, sending phono, cassette and reel to reel tape to my main preamp.
I would be interested in knowing what was involved with the updating, because I contacted Tomlinson to ask what he would do, from the perspective of having had all those years to think about it, to make it better. Where would he put better caps, what would he choose, and on and on. He did respond, surprisingly, but said he wouldn't do anything since it was all designed and voiced as a piece.
I really value that stereo/mono mode knob, and in fact have used it to de-construct an improperly decoded MS recording by extracting the S signal from a stereo signal, putting it through an analog MS decoder as the M signal - it's too long a story, but it worked and sounded great.
The companion power amps were nowhere near as good.
By the way I also have the (very thorough) manual and Tomlinson mentions specifically that the preamp is ready for the increased dynamics of digital - still yet to come.
This, to me, is the 1956 Lincoln Continental of preamps! (the one with the subtle spare tire hump on the rear of the trunk lid - cost $13,000 in 1956 in Canada when the Fairlane cost $3000)
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Let's see...
Audio Research SP3A1
Audio Research D79
Snell A's
AR TT with Grace Arm and Grace F9E
That's still a pretty sweet sounding system.
Bryan
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Hey my brother still has an APT/Holman pre...wonder what they're worth today?
WEEZ
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Let's see...
The Ampzilla amps - Ampzilla, son, grandson
The Mac 2205 (I think that's the number, it's been a while...) powering DQ10s.
The first Hafler amp and pre.
In the early '80s - the Sumo amps - power, half power, and nine
I'd agree with the HK receivers and integrateds, I'd add Yamaha and Luxman to the list. Nad 3020 anyone?
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My experience dates back to 1971, and I would say that the only thing that was better then and inferior today is/are tuners. And when you adjust for inflation, much of today's stuff is almost ridiculously better. As Carly Simon sang - These are the good old days!
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miniminim
Call Vince at www.audioproz.com to update them. He has at any one time several already modded there. That's where I bought mine.
Prepare yourself for a lecture tho...he's mighty opinionated. But, his prices are fair and he has a good, little nonsense attitude.
WEEZ
They're not worth much used...I think I saw Blue Book at $200 used and they sell for $250 on ebay. I bought mine for $500 from Vince at www.AudioProz.com
Inscrutable Tim
For the most part I agree with ya', but for vinyl guys late 70/early 80's gear is the best value for us in many regards. The phono stages were built when there was only one high fidelity choice in audio (well, two if you count reel-to-reel) and they could amortize the cost over hundreds of thousands, or millions, of units. These days with vinylheads in a small minority of audiophooldom, we pay a lot more for most TT's, cartridges, and phono amps of equivalent quality today.
For folks that prefer CD I think there is no better time than the present for gear - unless you factor in whatever sentimentality or 70's aesthetics are worth to you :)
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Thanks for the link! :)
WEEZ
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John,
After thinking about it i would have to agree with you about the vinyl. Although I was only into the lower end at the time, my Pioneer PL117 and Shure M91ED, adjusted for a 3% inflation rate, would go for only the most entry level new rig now, and might well sound better. I could test that hypothesis, as I still have the table sitting around (it's my third table), but the Shure has been replaced by a Grado Black.
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I just remembered one I lusted after for years! It was Sony's top of the line portable cassette recorder/player, the CM-5 or something. It was in their catalogue for years. It was a top flight recorder, with a good mic. beautifully made. I bet they still hold up. Marantz copied it. I don't think anything but Nagra was ever better.
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The one piece I lusted after was a Tandberg TD-20A reel to reel. What a sweet looking and sounding piece that was.
Bryan
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Bryan,
Yeah man! My first source was an open reel (not as nice as the Tandberg), and once in a blue moon I mentally threaten to look for another. Ususally when I get tied up in a thread like this. I'd better move on now :wink:
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Hey my brother still has an APT/Holman pre...wonder what they're worth today?
WEEZ
I would say they're probably worth keeping more than almost any other piece I know of. They're not very big so they don't take up much space if you have to store it, and my impression is that they aren't worth much on the used market. On the other hand, I can't think of a more versatile preamp for less than very silly money.
I don't know of any other consumer pre that gives you that "mode" control, where you can sweep continuously from L+R to L-R. That's right, you can choose how "stereo" you want your sound to be.
You know those contemporary mixes where the lead vocal is almost buried in the mix? You can sweep a little over to the L+R side and emphasize whatever's in the middle. If the center soloist is too hot for your taste, a slight move of the mode control towards L-R takes care of that.
Bottom line, they're worth way more than they sell for.
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My brother doesn't even use his anymore. He is currently storing the Holman; a big ass SAE amp; a Thorens 160; a Sony integrated; and two pairs of Large Advents.
He has in-wall speakers throughout his house that he plays thru a Yamaha receiver and a computor. :roll:
WEEZ
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Now there's a good old 70's system that was pretty typical of someone getting into the high end. There are a few guys here in STL that have purchased the old Advents for 2nd systems. We sat and listened a few months ago to one of them and had an absolute ball just listening to music instead of equipment.
Bryan
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I know this topic has been dead for a while...but I got a Mitsubishi DA-C20 Tuner/Preamp (circa 1979)
Tired caps and all....I think it's the best preamp I've ever owned. Good line section and fantastic MC section (very good MM section). Tuner...well, don't care much - it works. Even has a headphone jack that sounds good enough (I'm not a head'ie) :)
I find the phono stage(s) to be better than the vaunted APT-Holman. The APT's greatest failing is it's 36db gain in MM stage....the music here doesn't get groovin' until you use 5mv cartridge (soooo silly, that kills the other 85% of cartridges out there). I think my tube amps are pretty low gain, so that's complicating the issue, but 36db just ain't enough to enjoy vinyl.
Anyhow - it gets my vote for best 70's gear that I've bought.
John :D
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John,
Probably the reason for the 36db in the Holman is that in those days, the line stage gain was probably high..so a few db less in the phono stage wasn't important. The difference between 36db and the 'standard' 40db is actually pretty negligable when you add in 20db or so for the line stage that follows it. Two clicks on the volume knob and you're right there.
Today, line stages may still have 20db of gain...but many have less...maybe 12 or 15. Seems that amp makers are putting more gain in the power amps. Wrong place for it if you ask me.
Glad you're liking the Mitsubishi :D
WEEZ
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Yup, I know part of the issue is that my (vintage tube) amps must be low gain. I have 10 watt 6V6 integrated's that seem to play louder, earlier.
I'll have to try the APT one day on another amp...but teamed with the tube amps I have, not even the Grado Green sounds right (full and dynamic, that is). I have to use a 5mv AT or a 5mv ADC before I get some measure of fullness/rightness to the music.
The line stage, whatever the gain on the APT, is amazing. I've never heard so much clarity nor have my little 6.5" 2 way Linaeums ever pounded out as much bass as this.
I end up listening to the Mitsui more often, tho, as switching from preferred phono (the Mitsui by yards) to line (the APT, by a goodly margin) is a pain :evil: