AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Speakers => Topic started by: Nick B on July 09, 2023, 07:46:01 PM
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Things are sounding quite good in so. Nevada 🎶 .... but.... 🙄
A non active member here recently suggested I add subwoofers and sent me a number of links on subs and crossovers. Interesting reading indeed. Even though very low bass response is not a priority for me and never has been, he feels that relieving the JMR 6" driver will result in an improved midrange and treble, enough to warrant the expense and annoyance (for me) of dealing with the extra power cords and cables. My JM Reynaud is a 2 way and uses the AMT tweeter. It's a terrific speaker, the best I've ever owned.
In addition to the provided links of the Starke subs, Rythmik, SVS and Tekton were also recommended.
https://shop.starkesound.com/collections/subwoofers
If I were to go that direction, and because it would be my first entry into the world of subwoofers, my criteria would be this:
1) reasonable cost without degrading the current level of SQ
2) the less weight, the better...preferably in the 40-50 lb range
3) a smaller footprint ... 13" x 13" and open as to height
4) not needing an external crossover device like a Marchant
5) powered
6) preferably a servo controlled unit
7) 2 smaller woofers...8" or 10"...would be fine with me
8)kit form is fine and I'd either attempt it myself or take it to Las Vegas or I have a neighbor who might do me a favor and do the soldering
9) wireless capability would be great
I've heard that open baffle servo controlled subs sound the best and allow for the most flexible placement. So I did check out Rythmik's double 8"s and Danny Ritchie's kits, but that puts me at $1,000+ each for the Rythmik and a lot more for the GR Research.
I've attached an icloud link to my living room.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0187zKDiDyMeJAH4CRv735EoA
Comments appreciated!
Nick
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Nick,
The 8in servo sub idea is something that I hope that GR-Research will make cabinet kits available.
I want to try a 3x8 or 4x8 stack (hopefully modular) with my MG10/QR project. Already have the RA A370XLR3 servo amps to use.
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Rich,
It would be great if GR offered it at some point. Dual 8s are intriguing and I'd opt for one facing forward and the other one to the rear. That type of kit I could likely do myself and get a very nice finish on it. I don't know if something other than mdf would be available or if that is preferred because of cost and other factors. I don't like using it.
Nick
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Not wireless but I think it meets your other criteria. :thumb:
https://www.goldenear.com/subwoofers/forcefield-series/forcefield-3
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Not wireless but I think it meets your other criteria. :thumb:
https://www.goldenear.com/subwoofers/forcefield-series/forcefield-3
Hal,
That looks like a really nice sub and good value. Nice design to also include the down firing sub. Do you have any idea if there is such a thing as a third party wireless device that could be used on these or any other subs that aren't designed wireless capable?
Nick
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As you would expect I am going to stick with the recommendation I have already made and that is the RSl Speedwoofer 10S Mk II. I have used a pair at the house in Greenville with four different speakers including two that you have owned, the Fritz Carrera Be and the Reynaud Abscisse. In addition they have also been paired with the Reynaud Bliss and now for the last 18 months the Rosso Fiorentino Voltera 2. In each case they have blended in easily whether wired speaker level or line level. While they are certainly not the equal of the Rythmik F12's at the house in Florida they more than get the job done bass wise and as that other member told you add to the sense of space and soundstage. At $449 a piece or $898 for a recommended pair they are really hard to beat with free shipping and a 30 day trial period. If they fail to live up to what you expect you send them back for $50 a piece with their shipping label which is a lot less than it would cost you to ship them and easier than trying to sell them yourself as you would with other brands. With the price increase at Rythmik the price of the pair of Speedwoofers will only get you about 2/3 of a single Rythmik sub. Only other "known" option I am familiar with would be the SVS SB-1000 Pro at $1149 a pair.
https://rslspeakers.com/speedwoofer10s-mkii/
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000-pro-subwoofer
No familiarity with the Goldenear subs but have owned a pair of their speakers back when they were an independent company and not part of Audioquest. My experience with them is that while their products are well built their stats are greatly exaggerated.
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Nick
A friend of mine in Tallahassee bought a pair of Speedwoofer 10 MK II's a couple of months ago that I helped him integrate with a pair of Odyssey Lorelei speakers he bought from me. He bought the wireless modules for some reason even though the subs were going to be within a few feet of the mains and the rack. We tried them both wireless and wired and both thought wired was better even using a pair of cheap Amazon RCA cables. If you are going to be placing them along the same front wall as the VG's the no need for the wireless device as a cheap pair of RCA cables is all you need. While we had them hooked up with the wireless devices we tried multiple locations in the room and in the end what logically seemed the best location to start with was.
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Not wireless but I think it meets your other criteria. :thumb:
https://www.goldenear.com/subwoofers/forcefield-series/forcefield-3
Hal,
That looks like a really nice sub and good value. Nice design to also include the down firing sub. Do you have any idea if there is such a thing as a third party wireless device that could be used on these or any other subs that aren't designed wireless capable?
Nick
Hi Nick. I honestly have no idea about wireless options where speakers are concerned. I do know that when it comes to audio, any wireless option would degrade sound quality compared to a wired equivalent.
I looked at your room photo and cannot understand why wired would be problematic.
In any case, the GoldenEar is probably the best bang for the buck. Also, download the spec sheet and install PDF files. The specs on the website are ultra conservative because Audioquest parameters put specs tremendously in favor of the consumer. Meaning actual performance will be much better (not that the Audioquest specs are bad) as GoldenEar reports in their specs.
Not trying or meaning to be a salesman, and I do own GE speakers, but for real they cannot be beat from a *value* perspective.
There are a lot of other good suggestions in this thread, so you have much to ponder 🤔
Best
Hal
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Not wireless but I think it meets your other criteria. :thumb:
https://www.goldenear.com/subwoofers/forcefield-series/forcefield-3
Hal,
That looks like a really nice sub and good value. Nice design to also include the down firing sub. Do you have any idea if there is such a thing as a third party wireless device that could be used on these or any other subs that aren't designed wireless capable?
Nick
Hi Nick. I honestly have no idea about wireless options where speakers are concerned. I do know that when it comes to audio, any wireless option would degrade sound quality compared to a wired equivalent.
I looked at your room photo and cannot understand why wired would be problematic.
In any case, the GoldenEar is probably the best bang for the buck. Also, download the spec sheet and install PDF files. The specs on the website are ultra conservative because Audioquest parameters put specs tremendously in favor of the consumer. Meaning actual performance will be much better (not that the Audioquest specs are bad) as GoldenEar reports in their specs.
Not trying or meaning to be a salesman, and I do own GE speakers, but for real they cannot be beat from a *value* perspective.
There are a lot of other good suggestions in this thread, so you have much to ponder 🤔
Best
Hal
Hal,
I was thinking wireless because I recently moved and it became obvious that I still have too much "stuff". That's why I'm digitizing all my photos that are in albums and shoeboxes. I'll do the same for all my CDs and no longer be keeping any, either selling, donating or discarding the rest.
Having said that, I've always been wireless in my streaming and it's always given me grief...until I took Jack's advice and bought a TP Link wireless mesh system. It works flawlessly and a wired connection to my Holo Red streamer and Mac desktop, which houses the Roon core, has solved ALL my streaming issues and Roon runs flawlessly. So my desire for less stuff and fewer wires is tempered by reality and what works well and saves me a lot of aggravation.
I do like the GE quite a bit. Jack's suggestions in the past have worked out great and the RSL looks like a great value as well. Ideally, 8" servo controlled subs sold as a kit with or without the wood/mdf are the most intriguing to me. But there is no such kit that I could find and a finished 8" dual sub comes in at $1,000 and I'd want two.
I thought it would be fun and informative to open up the discussion here and I'm learning a lot. Ive owned a lot of equipment over the last 35+ years, but never any subs. So i'm treading carefully considering doing this.
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I didn't pay that much attention to see if GE or SVS have any type of return policy and if so what it costs.
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I didn't pay that much attention to see if GE or SVS have any type of return policy and if so what it costs.
I don't know about GE return policy. That could be dependent on the dealership, if you use one and don't buy via direct website (that cannot be done for TRef).
What I and thousands ( literally) do know is that no manufacturer has better warranty than GE. Should a problem arise, suffice it to say you're covered parts and labor, even if you're out of warranty!!
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As you would expect I am going to stick with the recommendation I have already made and that is the RSl Speedwoofer 10S Mk II. I have used a pair at the house in Greenville with four different speakers including two that you have owned, the Fritz Carrera Be and the Reynaud Abscisse. In addition they have also been paired with the Reynaud Bliss and now for the last 18 months the Rosso Fiorentino Voltera 2. In each case they have blended in easily whether wired speaker level or line level. While they are certainly not the equal of the Rythmik F12's at the house in Florida they more than get the job done bass wise and as that other member told you add to the sense of space and soundstage. At $449 a piece or $898 for a recommended pair they are really hard to beat with free shipping and a 30 day trial period. If they fail to live up to what you expect you send them back for $50 a piece with their shipping label which is a lot less than it would cost you to ship them and easier than trying to sell them yourself as you would with other brands. With the price increase at Rythmik the price of the pair of Speedwoofers will only get you about 2/3 of a single Rythmik sub. Only other "known" option I am familiar with would be the SVS SB-1000 Pro at $1149 a pair.
https://rslspeakers.com/speedwoofer10s-mkii/
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000-pro-subwoofer
No familiarity with the Goldenear subs but have owned a pair of their speakers back when they were an independent company and not part of Audioquest. My experience with them is that while their products are well built their stats are greatly exaggerated.
As you know, my main focus with considering subs is to allow the treble and mids to perform even better. If I will gain a better sense of space and soundstage as you mentioned, I'd be thrilled. That is what could use a bit of improvement right now. As I play very little material that challenges the very low registers, the type of subs you and Hal have mentioned are probably the best bang for the buck and especially being my first time owning subs.
As to a warranty, it's not a huge concern as I've only had to have one item repaired in all my years in audio. That was a Judd Barber LA 100 preamp that I left on overnight playing a break in disc. In the morning it wasn't playing. I think it was a cold solder joint.
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Nick
While I will acknowledge that in general Goldenear make quality products and have good support as good as the Forcefield 3 may be in your system it would not be a simple plug and play process due to it's architecture. For you the most convenient hookup method would be to use a set of the RCA outs on the Supratek to the sub and adjust the crossover somewhere between 40-60hz to get a smooth transition. If the VG's bass extension is similar to the Carrera's that would be close to 50hz. With the Forcefield however using the line level inputs bypasses the crossover entirely and is dependent on the internal crossover function of a receiver or HT processor. To use the subs crossover function you would have to use the speaker level inputs which in the case of your Starkrimson is likely to cause a problem as if it is like most "Class D" amps it's negative speaker terminals do not present a true ground causing either the sub amp or both amps to buzz if you don't connect the negative terminal on the amp side to an alternative ground point. With you being a newbie to subs I don't think this is something you would want us to diagnose for you over the internet or even by phone. Were you still using the SET 120 this wouldn't be an issue or would it be with any Class A or Class AB amp. This is the main reason Brian at Rythmik never recommends speaker level inputs on his subs as he has to many repair issues from people trying to hook them up to either Class D or even differential balanced amps as neither types have a true ground on their negative terminals. I had this problem when I was using the Rythmik subs with the differential balanced BHK amps and had to have an alternative ground point for the negative speaker cable. As I had done it before it wasn't a big deal to me but it likely would be for you plus even more wires.
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Nick
While I will acknowledge that in general Goldenear make quality products and have good support as good as the Forcefield 3 may be in your system it would not be a simple plug and play process due to it's architecture. For you the most convenient hookup method would be to use a set of the RCA outs on the Supratek to the sub and adjust the crossover somewhere between 40-60hz to get a smooth transition. If the VG's bass extension is similar to the Carrera's that would be close to 50hz. With the Forcefield however using the line level inputs bypasses the crossover entirely and is dependent on the internal crossover function of a receiver or HT processor. To use the subs crossover function you would have to use the speaker level inputs which in the case of your Starkrimson is likely to cause a problem as if it is like most "Class D" amps it's negative speaker terminals do not present a true ground causing either the sub amp or both amps to buzz if you don't connect the negative terminal on the amp side to an alternative ground point. With you being a newbie to subs I don't think this is something you would want us to diagnose for you over the internet or even by phone. Were you still using the SET 120 this wouldn't be an issue or would it be with any Class A or Class AB amp. This is the main reason Brian at Rythmik never recommends speaker level inputs on his subs as he has to many repair issues from people trying to hook them up to either Class D or even differential balanced amps as neither types have a true ground on their negative terminals. I had this problem when I was using the Rythmik subs with the differential balanced BHK amps and had to have an alternative ground point for the negative speaker cable. As I had done it before it wasn't a big deal to me but it likely would be for you plus even more wires.
Jack,
I'm glad you mentioned that. Another factor to consider, although I'd prefer not to have to deal with any potential grounding issues. I do appreciate the smaller footprint and less weight (26 vs 40 lbs), but it's not a big consideration. As you mentioned the ground, it reminded me that my VGs have a ground connection. No need to try it as the system is dead quiet, except for a left channel pop on turn on and off. Im presuming it's preamp tube related, but can't test as I have yet to find the box that contains my extra tubes.
As to cost, 2 GE are $1,298 including shipping, 2 Starke are $795 shipped, 2 dual 10" Tekton $1,320 shipped and 2 RSL are $898 shipped. Lots of choices.....
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Nick
While I will acknowledge that in general Goldenear make quality products and have good support as good as the Forcefield 3 may be in your system it would not be a simple plug and play process due to it's architecture....
According to the signature line the OP has JM Reynaud Voce Grande speakers. It's plug-and-play simplicity or lack thereof should be the same regardless of whichever sub he ends with.
In any case I'll bow out of this thread if you don't mind.
Best of luck @ Nick B, whatever you decide . :)
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It's not the same as most subs crossover function is available with both the line and speaker level inputs while with the GE it's only available using the speaker level inputs. They need a low pass crossover built into a component upstream to work via line level as would be the case in the average HT setup.
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As you know, my main focus with considering subs is to allow the treble and mids to perform even better. If I will gain a better sense of space and soundstage as you mentioned, I'd be thrilled. That is what could use a bit of improvement right now.
This improvement is only achievable if a high-pass filter is employed to block the LF from your main speakers. I have only skimmed the thread, so not sure if this element has been discussed. Do the subs recommended here do that with their high level inputs? (My Gallo subs have a high-pass filter built into their high level speaker inputs. So the main amp connects into sub speaker inputs, and then sub speaker outputs get connected to main speakers, with a passive filter between the two, thereby high-passing the main speakers. Sub's crossover adjustment is used to low-pass to the sub).
If the sub does not have this filter built-in, you will need to put a high-pass filter before your main amp, and then drive the subs line level from your preamp outputs.
If you don't high-pass your JMRs, they will be playing full range exactly as they are now, and you will simply be augmenting the bottom with the subs.
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As you know, my main focus with considering subs is to allow the treble and mids to perform even better. If I will gain a better sense of space and soundstage as you mentioned, I'd be thrilled. That is what could use a bit of improvement right now.
This improvement is only achievable if a high-pass filter is employed to block the LF from your main speakers. I have only skimmed the thread, so not sure if this element has been discussed. Do the subs recommended here do that with their high level inputs? (My Gallo subs have a high-pass filter built into their high level speaker inputs. So the main amp connects into sub speaker inputs, and then sub speaker outputs get connected to main speakers, with a passive filter between the two, thereby high-passing the main speakers. Sub's crossover adjustment is used to low-pass to the sub).
If the sub does not have this filter built-in, you will need to put a high-pass filter before your main amp, and then drive the subs line level from your preamp outputs.
If you don't high-pass you JMRs, they will be playing full range exactly as they are now, and you will simply be augmenting the bottom with the subs.
My intent was to get by without an active external xover and dip my toes into the world of subwoofers. As I mentioned, I have no experience with subs in 35+ years of audio. Some years ago, I owned Nolas for a couple of weeks that used one sub, but my buddy and I could not get them to sound decent and I quickly sold them. That was in a different house and I had a huge wall cabinet in the way as well. I'm looking at a number of subs currently and will check if they are capable with the filters that you are mentioning.
I only want to pursue this if I get a worthwhile improvement. Otherwise, I have other home projects that take up my time and my money for that matter as well.
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As you know, my main focus with considering subs is to allow the treble and mids to perform even better. If I will gain a better sense of space and soundstage as you mentioned, I'd be thrilled. That is what could use a bit of improvement right now.
This improvement is only achievable if a high-pass filter is employed to block the LF from your main speakers. I have only skimmed the thread, so not sure if this element has been discussed. Do the subs recommended here do that with their high level inputs? (My Gallo subs have a high-pass filter built into their high level speaker inputs. So the main amp connects into sub speaker inputs, and then sub speaker outputs get connected to main speakers, with a passive filter between the two, thereby high-passing the main speakers. Sub's crossover adjustment is used to low-pass to the sub).
If the sub does not have this filter built-in, you will need to put a high-pass filter before your main amp, and then drive the subs line level from your preamp outputs.
If you don't high-pass you JMRs, they will be playing full range exactly as they are now, and you will simply be augmenting the bottom with the subs.
My intent was to get by without an active external xover and dip my toes into the world of subwoofers. As I mentioned, I have no experience with subs in 35+ years of audio. Some years ago, I owned Nolas for a couple of weeks that used one sub, but my buddy and I could not get them to sound decent and I quickly sold them. That was in a different house and I had a huge wall cabinet in the way as well. I'm looking at a number of subs currently and will check if they are capable with the filters that you are mentioning.
I only want to pursue this if I get a worthwhile improvement. Otherwise, I have other home projects that take up my time and my money for that matter as well.
We'll talk tomorrow :thumb:
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As you know, my main focus with considering subs is to allow the treble and mids to perform even better. If I will gain a better sense of space and soundstage as you mentioned, I'd be thrilled. That is what could use a bit of improvement right now.
This improvement is only achievable if a high-pass filter is employed to block the LF from your main speakers. I have only skimmed the thread, so not sure if this element has been discussed. Do the subs recommended here do that with their high level inputs? (My Gallo subs have a high-pass filter built into their high level speaker inputs. So the main amp connects into sub speaker inputs, and then sub speaker outputs get connected to main speakers, with a passive filter between the two, thereby high-passing the main speakers. Sub's crossover adjustment is used to low-pass to the sub).
If the sub does not have this filter built-in, you will need to put a high-pass filter before your main amp, and then drive the subs line level from your preamp outputs.
If you don't high-pass you JMRs, they will be playing full range exactly as they are now, and you will simply be augmenting the bottom with the subs.
My intent was to get by without an active external xover and dip my toes into the world of subwoofers. As I mentioned, I have no experience with subs in 35+ years of audio. Some years ago, I owned Nolas for a couple of weeks that used one sub, but my buddy and I could not get them to sound decent and I quickly sold them. That was in a different house and I had a huge wall cabinet in the way as well. I'm looking at a number of subs currently and will check if they are capable with the filters that you are mentioning.
I only want to pursue this if I get a worthwhile improvement. Otherwise, I have other home projects that take up my time and my money for that matter as well.
We'll talk tomorrow :thumb:
👍
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If you're up for it, you can make a very simple high-pass filter (passive) that you place before the main amp:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=181310.0
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I mentioned I've bowed out of this thread, which I have. I didn't mention I wouldn't add an editorial comment from time to time, so I hope everyone doesn't mind. Again, this is just editorial...
I've always been of the opinion, and have written as much here on this site numerous times, that *in my opinion* adding one or more external subs to a system can be difficult, challenging and produce unexpected, unintended and unwanted results, and that "better" (where better is determined by YOU, the person adding the sub(s)) is in no way guaranteed.
Over the course of my lifetime, I can't get over how often *my opinion* is reinforced. :thumb:
Best.
Hal
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If you're up for it, you can make a very simple high-pass filter (passive) that you place before the main amp:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=181310.0
Thanks tl. Since I moved, I have yet to find a number of things which includes my soldering iron. One of the guys here suggested this device....
https://www.parts-express.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-50-Hz-High-Pass-266-270?quantity=1
I would be attaching it to the XLR adapter at the amp.
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I mentioned I've bowed out of this thread, which I have. I didn't mention I wouldn't add an editorial comment from time to time, so I hope everyone doesn't mind. Again, this is just editorial...
I've always been of the opinion, and have written as much here on this site numerous times, that *in my opinion* adding one or more external subs to a system can be difficult, challenging and produce unexpected, unintended and unwanted results, and that "better" (where better is determined by YOU, the person adding the sub(s)) is in no way guaranteed.
Over the course of my lifetime, I can't get over how often *my opinion* is reinforced. :thumb:
Best.
Hal
Thanks for chiming in again, Hal. In the course of doing this "hobby"? for 35+ years, i've bought a fair amount of equipment, cables and accessories/gizmos and some of it hasn't panned out all all 💰💰🥲🥲 Such are the hazards of having audio as a hobby. I've made amazing progress in SQ over the last couple of years here thanks to the suggestions and help of a couple of AN members. And for that I'm very grateful and enjoying the results most every night. Not knowing much at all about subs, I've taken all suggestions with an open mind and immersed myself in reading about the subject recently. I will admit my retention level has not been good due to information overload, but it's getting better. I have no idea what I will ultimately decide.
Last night I played some LF test tones and some tracks of instruments of the lowest registers. interesting stuff for a Sunday night... My Reynaud got down to the 30 hz tone. I have sent emails to a couple of the subwoofer manufacturers and I'm also waiting to hear back.
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You're welcome , Nick. And I thank you as well for engaging all of us in productive conversation. :)
For what it's worth , and if you're interested, I can make available to you a music track from Mickey Hart, called the Gates of Dafos. It is rather a good track to use when wanting to test one's subwoofers. 8) :thumb:
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You're welcome , Nick. And I thank you as well for engaging all of us in productive conversation. :)
For what it's worth , and if you're interested, I can make available to you a music track from Mickey Hart, called the Gates of Dafos. It is rather a good track to use when wanting to test one's subwoofers. 8) :thumb:
Sure, Hal. That would be great.
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You're welcome , Nick. And I thank you as well for engaging all of us in productive conversation. :)
For what it's worth , and if you're interested, I can make available to you a music track from Mickey Hart, called the Gates of Dafos. It is rather a good track to use when wanting to test one's subwoofers. 8) :thumb:
Sure, Hal. That would be great.
The Beast at work! :thumb:
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You're welcome , Nick. And I thank you as well for engaging all of us in productive conversation. :)
For what it's worth , and if you're interested, I can make available to you a music track from Mickey Hart, called the Gates of Dafos. It is rather a good track to use when wanting to test one's subwoofers. 8) :thumb:
Sure, Hal. That would be great.
The Beast at work! :thumb:
Please stand by for link I'm in the middle of a ton of things I'll get it done for you within the next 24 hours or so...I'll post in this thread with download link.
I will not forget I've already made a dictation in my phone 8)
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@nick b
please download and play this. already converted to wav for your convenience
Mickey Hart, Airto Moreira & Flora Purim - Gates of Dafos -this is a remaster and taken from very high quality vinyl...16/44 pcm
https://myaccount.dropsend.com/file/783b693a17206081
Best.
Hal
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If you are trying to setup a subwoofer, I would recommend Room EQ Wizard to help with the process.
Runs on most computer platforms and with an inexpensive measurement mic, like a Dayton Audio iMM-6 or iMM-6S calibrated omni mic and TRRS cable, you can make very accurate measurements at your listening position.
A lot of users out there for help, so that is why I recommend it. You can even use REW to generate Parametric EQ data for the room for bass management.
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If you're up for it, you can make a very simple high-pass filter (passive) that you place before the main amp:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=181310.0
Thanks tl. Since I moved, I have yet to find a number of things which includes my soldering iron. One of the guys here suggested this device....
https://www.parts-express.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-50-Hz-High-Pass-266-270?quantity=1
I would be attaching it to the XLR adapter at the amp.
I have no direct experience with those Harrison filters, but I have read comments over the years that they noticeably degrade the signal. FWIW. I would have more confidence in the Danny Richie / GR Research stuff that I linked.
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As if you needed another opinion…
I wouldn’t get so hung up on the high pass filter- I understand what you want to use it for, but the easier and simpler solution is to run the speakers full range, and blend the sub in. You may find the sound as such is what you’re listening for.
Of course, ideally, you’d need a sub with speaker level inputs. The RSL sub mentioned has them, as do many others.
I looked up your speakers, and the reviews say it has a 7” woofer, which isn’t all that tiny. Unless it’s a deceiving photo, your room doesn’t seem overly large either, maybe mitigating the need to relieve your mains of full range duty.
Either way, I hope you quell your audio nervosa.
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As if you needed another opinion…
I wouldn’t get so hung up on the high pass filter- I understand what you want to use it for, but the easier and simpler solution is to run the speakers full range, and blend the sub in. You may find the sound as such is what you’re listening for.
Of course, ideally, you’d need a sub with speaker level inputs. The RSL sub mentioned has them, as do many others.
I looked up your speakers, and the reviews say it has a 7” woofer, which isn’t all that tiny. Unless it’s a deceiving photo, your room doesn’t seem overly large either, maybe mitigating the need to relieve your mains of full range duty.
Either way, I hope you quell your audio nervosa.
+1 !!!
Excuse the repetition, but this bears repeating -
I mentioned I've bowed out of this thread, which I have. I didn't mention I wouldn't add an editorial comment from time to time, so I hope everyone doesn't mind. Again, this is just editorial...
I've always been of the opinion, and have written as much here on this site numerous times, that *in my opinion* adding one or more external subs to a system can be difficult, challenging and produce unexpected, unintended and unwanted results, and that "better" (where better is determined by YOU, the person adding the sub(s)) is in no way guaranteed.
Over the course of my lifetime, I can't get over how often *my opinion* is reinforced. :thumb:
Best.
Hal
--------- not posted previously, but shall now as I noted Nick has not downloaded MH-GOD -
excerpt from some forum threads.. comments from others....
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/bass-test-songs-my-recommendations.55881/
Mickey Hart: Dafos. Recorded by Keith Johnson and released on Reference Recordings. The track "The Gates of Dafos" has a moment that an Abso!ute Sound reviewer measured as going down to 16 Hz. He described it as the aural equivalent of having a UPS truck crash through the wall of your living room, IIRC.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/best-woofer-50hz-300hz-hi-eff-maybe-15.158170/page-7
I do not want or need that. My Quadripole subs are not quite like the usual subs, when there is a pulse of LF (try Mickey Hart's Dafos, Gates of Dafos) the THUD pins you against your chair. No thud - no superfluous woofing going on.
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/134617-subwoofers~svs-vs-tapped-horn-vs-fitzmaurice-tht/page/5/#comment-1512810
The sustained synthesizer part towards the end had incredible weight, and bloom. Absolutley awesome. on Dafos, a Reference Recordings CD, "The Gates of Dafos, Mickey Hart goes to town on his signature instrument "The Beast". For those of you who are familiar with this "thing" know what I'm talking about.
https://www.tubecad.com/2021/08/blog0542.htm
I remember once hearing four subwoofers powered by 500W amplifiers at a friend's house, the famous Mickey Hart Dafos CD playing at full volume, the track The Gates Of Dafos delivering what sounds like a upright piano tipped over or a huge drum kit dropped from the second story.
-
If you're up for it, you can make a very simple high-pass filter (passive) that you place before the main amp:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=181310.0
Thanks tl. Since I moved, I have yet to find a number of things which includes my soldering iron. One of the guys here suggested this device....
https://www.parts-express.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-50-Hz-High-Pass-266-270?quantity=1
I would be attaching it to the XLR adapter at the amp.
The FMODS suck. To get an idea of Harrison Labs corporate approach to SQ take a look at what they sell for a speaker crossover:
https://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/index_files/Page1002.htm
The FMODS use crappy ceramic caps instead of the very high quality film caps needed for the application.
Did you get my email?
-
As if you needed another opinion…
I wouldn’t get so hung up on the high pass filter- I understand what you want to use it for, but the easier and simpler solution is to run the speakers full range, and blend the sub in. You may find the sound as such is what you’re listening for.
Of course, ideally, you’d need a sub with speaker level inputs. The RSL sub mentioned has them, as do many others.
I looked up your speakers, and the reviews say it has a 7” woofer, which isn’t all that tiny. Unless it’s a deceiving photo, your room doesn’t seem overly large either, maybe mitigating the need to relieve your mains of full range duty.
Either way, I hope you quell your audio nervosa.
+1 !!!
Excuse the repetition, but this bears repeating -
I mentioned I've bowed out of this thread, which I have. I didn't mention I wouldn't add an editorial comment from time to time, so I hope everyone doesn't mind. Again, this is just editorial...
I've always been of the opinion, and have written as much here on this site numerous times, that *in my opinion* adding one or more external subs to a system can be difficult, challenging and produce unexpected, unintended and unwanted results, and that "better" (where better is determined by YOU, the person adding the sub(s)) is in no way guaranteed.
Over the course of my lifetime, I can't get over how often *my opinion* is reinforced. :thumb:
Best.
Hal
--------- not posted previously, but shall now as I noted Nick has not downloaded MH-GOD -
excerpt from some forum threads.. comments from others....
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/bass-test-songs-my-recommendations.55881/
Mickey Hart: Dafos. Recorded by Keith Johnson and released on Reference Recordings. The track "The Gates of Dafos" has a moment that an Abso!ute Sound reviewer measured as going down to 16 Hz. He described it as the aural equivalent of having a UPS truck crash through the wall of your living room, IIRC.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/best-woofer-50hz-300hz-hi-eff-maybe-15.158170/page-7
I do not want or need that. My Quadripole subs are not quite like the usual subs, when there is a pulse of LF (try Mickey Hart's Dafos, Gates of Dafos) the THUD pins you against your chair. No thud - no superfluous woofing going on.
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/134617-subwoofers~svs-vs-tapped-horn-vs-fitzmaurice-tht/page/5/#comment-1512810
The sustained synthesizer part towards the end had incredible weight, and bloom. Absolutley awesome. on Dafos, a Reference Recordings CD, "The Gates of Dafos, Mickey Hart goes to town on his signature instrument "The Beast". For those of you who are familiar with this "thing" know what I'm talking about.
https://www.tubecad.com/2021/08/blog0542.htm
I remember once hearing four subwoofers powered by 500W amplifiers at a friend's house, the famous Mickey Hart Dafos CD playing at full volume, the track The Gates Of Dafos delivering what sounds like a upright piano tipped over or a huge drum kit dropped from the second story.
Thanks. I will compile and save a LF playlist on Roon. I'm in a home improvement project frame of mind right now, so I'll save all the reading for tonight. I took some measurements last night per a member's help and here's what I came up with. This is just using my iphone and the Audio Tools app. My room is untreated with a bare glass 4'x5' window behind the rack. Again, my purpose in considering sub(s) is not to gain LF response, rather it's to try and improve the performance of the 7" AMT tweeter and 7" midwoofer driver on the Reynaud speakers. The xover on the JMR is at 1200 Hz. How adding a sub or two will actually sound and will it give me a worthwhile performance, I have no idea. BTW, the Reynaud bass gets into the 20s.
400 hz 81.5 db
250 84
125 68
100 70
60 58
50 59.5
40 72.5
30 65
20 53
-
If you're up for it, you can make a very simple high-pass filter (passive) that you place before the main amp:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=181310.0
Thanks tl. Since I moved, I have yet to find a number of things which includes my soldering iron. One of the guys here suggested this device....
https://www.parts-express.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-50-Hz-High-Pass-266-270?quantity=1
I would be attaching it to the XLR adapter at the amp.
The FMODS suck. To get an idea of Harrison Labs corporate approach to SQ take a look at what they sell for a speaker crossover:
https://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/index_files/Page1002.htm
The FMODS use crappy ceramic caps instead of the very high quality film caps needed for the application.
Did you get my email?
Thanks for that. I'm all for saving money and simplifying things, but 😳
Since you're not a fan of the Harrison FMOD, do you think the Sublime external crossover is reasonable to consider? If not, I don't want to spend the money ...like $2000 and up right now just for an external crossover to venture into the world of subs for the 1st time....
https://sublimeacoustic.com/collections/frontpage/products/k231-stereo-3-way-active-crossover
Yes, got your email and am responding
-
Nick you might be able to effect a low frequency roll off with the MUSE - Precision Audio Control: Parametric Equalizer in the MUSE suite. It would be a lot cheaper to do the low frequency roll off in the system via software.
There is a good chance that this would sound better than any hardware solution implemented in analog domain.
I am unfamiliar with the slope options available in MUSE suite but most parametric EQs have at least 24dB/oct
available as well as variable slope Q.
Scotty
-
Nick you might be able to effect a low frequency roll off with the MUSE - Precision Audio Control: Parametric Equalizer in the MUSE suite. It would be a lot cheaper to do the low frequency roll off in the system via software.
There is a good chance that this would sound better than any hardware solution implemented in analog domain.
I am unfamiliar with the slope options available in MUSE suite but most parametric EQs have at least 24dB/oct
available as well as variable slope Q.
Scotty
Scotty,
I'm assuming you mean MUSE as the new feature on Roon. Possibly MUSE is available as a stand alone product as well. I looked at MUSE a bit a couple of nights ago. Are you saying that if I decrease the bass output a bit to create less of a load on the 7" JMR driver, that it might improve the performance of that driver and the AMT tweeter? Maybe the best of both worlds as I'd be still getting enough bass for my non lowest LF needs??
Nick
-
Bingo, it doesn't matter whether you get rid of the LF via software or hardware they're
still gone. I addition you can precisely tailor the crossover point so that it sounds best to you.
You have way more flexibility in software than hardware.
Scotty
-
Bingo, it doesn't matter whether you get rid of the LF via software or hardware they're
still gone. I addition you can precisely tailor the crossover point so that it sounds best to you.
You have way more flexibility in software than hardware.
Scotty
What Scotty said.
I'm not the guy to chase the newest and latest. That's the reason I still use a 2012 Core i7 Mac mini as the system brains. The audio engine in that generation mini was terrific and with the bare bones dB Audio Labs software still surpasses most sources. Because of this I use Steinberg VST plugins to manipulate the data in the digital domain. There is a huge difference between response into the upper 20's and having that response with authority and impact!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Studio_Technology
https://blog.landr.com/best-free-vst-plugins/
The free plugins offer ~ 98% of those for retail sale.
Here are a few that work well and are essentially transparent:
https://www.meldaproduction.com/MEqualizer (this is a Swiss Army Knife!)
https://www.patreon.com/posts/fiver-48483719
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/luftikus-by-lkjb
-
Bingo, it doesn't matter whether you get rid of the LF via software or hardware they're
still gone. I addition you can precisely tailor the crossover point so that it sounds best to you.
You have way more flexibility in software than hardware.
Scotty
Thanks, Scotty. I will study up on MUSE and try a few settings to evaluate the effect. I'm using a Mac desktop that falls within the Roon core criteria, so it should work fine.
-
Bingo, it doesn't matter whether you get rid of the LF via software or hardware they're
still gone. I addition you can precisely tailor the crossover point so that it sounds best to you.
You have way more flexibility in software than hardware.
Scotty
Thanks, Scotty. I will study up on MUSE and try a few settings to evaluate the effect. I'm using a Mac desktop that falls within the Roon core criteria, so it should work fine.
Scotty,
Great stuff this MUSE software! Am playing from 500 hz down to see effects. Am focusing on 100 down and also boosting between 60-80 based on measurements last night. Can't access MUSE on the ipad, but can on my Mac OS laptop. Thanks again 👍
On another note, I moved from St George end of last year and now in cowboy town Pahrump near Vegas. Same scorching heat 😳 You're up in Cedar City, right?
-
Bingo, it doesn't matter whether you get rid of the LF via software or hardware they're
still gone. I addition you can precisely tailor the crossover point so that it sounds best to you.
You have way more flexibility in software than hardware.
Scotty
What Scotty said.
I'm not the guy to chase the newest and latest. That's the reason I still use a 2012 Core i7 Mac mini as the system brains. The audio engine in that generation mini was terrific and with the bare bones dB Audio Labs software still surpasses most sources. Because of this I use Steinberg VST plugins to manipulate the data in the digital domain. There is a huge difference between response into the upper 20's and having that response with authority and impact!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Studio_Technology
https://blog.landr.com/best-free-vst-plugins/
The free plugins offer ~ 98% of those for retail sale.
Here are a few that work well and are essentially transparent:
https://www.meldaproduction.com/MEqualizer (this is a Swiss Army Knife!)
https://www.patreon.com/posts/fiver-48483719
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/luftikus-by-lkjb
Thanks for all that info, Dave.
Lots more to assimilate.... 😀 I've been using eq to decrease bass in 10 hz increments from 50 down. Fuller midrange...male vocal... at least on the first song I attempted
-
Lots more to assimilate.... 😀 I've been using eq to decrease bass in 10 hz increments from 50 down. Fuller midrange...male vocal... at least on the first song I attempted
Decrease? :shock:
-
Still up in Cedar.
Scotty
-
Lots more to assimilate.... 😀 I've been using eq to decrease bass in 10 hz increments from 50 down. Fuller midrange...male vocal... at least on the first song I attempted
Decrease? :shock:
A member here who's been after me for a few years to get subs indicated that if I take a bit of the LF load off the 7" JMR driver, it will improve the mids and treble. That's what I was testing. As I've never used software like MUSE to try these tests, I was testing from 500 hz down and also boosting a few areas between 60-100 as well.
My purpose in adding subs is more to improve mid and treble presentation, rather than only improve LF. I don't listen to the lower/lowest frequency range all that much.
-
Still up in Cedar.
Scotty
Happy for you you're not exposed to 115 degree heat 🥵
-
@nick b
please download and play this. already converted to wav for your convenience
Mickey Hart, Airto Moreira & Flora Purim - Gates of Dafos -this is a remaster and taken from very high quality vinyl...16/44 pcm
https://myaccount.dropsend.com/file/783b693a17206081
Best.
Hal
Thanks, Hal. Will get this into my music folder to play via Roon
-
If you are trying to setup a subwoofer, I would recommend Room EQ Wizard to help with the process.
Runs on most computer platforms and with an inexpensive measurement mic, like a Dayton Audio iMM-6 or iMM-6S calibrated omni mic and TRRS cable, you can make very accurate measurements at your listening position.
A lot of users out there for help, so that is why I recommend it. You can even use REW to generate Parametric EQ data for the room for bass management.
Have Room EQ on Mac laptop, although haven't used it yet. Still thinking about which subs, will adding improve mids, highs soundstage enough to go down this road....
-
If you're up for it, you can make a very simple high-pass filter (passive) that you place before the main amp:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=181310.0
Thanks tl. Since I moved, I have yet to find a number of things which includes my soldering iron. One of the guys here suggested this device....
https://www.parts-express.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-50-Hz-High-Pass-266-270?quantity=1
I would be attaching it to the XLR adapter at the amp.
I have no direct experience with those Harrison filters, but I have read comments over the years that they noticeably degrade the signal. FWIW. I would have more confidence in the Danny Richie / GR Research stuff that I linked.
Dave expressed the same reservations about the quality of the Harrison filters
-
As if you needed another opinion…
I wouldn’t get so hung up on the high pass filter- I understand what you want to use it for, but the easier and simpler solution is to run the speakers full range, and blend the sub in. You may find the sound as such is what you’re listening for.
Of course, ideally, you’d need a sub with speaker level inputs. The RSL sub mentioned has them, as do many others.
I looked up your speakers, and the reviews say it has a 7” woofer, which isn’t all that tiny. Unless it’s a deceiving photo, your room doesn’t seem overly large either, maybe mitigating the need to relieve your mains of full range duty.
Either way, I hope you quell your audio nervosa.
Jim,
Opinions are welcome. Yes, it's a 7" driver and I was wondering about the necessity. But...there are wise and much more experienced guys than me who feel adding subs improves the overall presentation to make it worth the effort and expense. I have no idea, so I'm open to information and opinions.
I have an open floor plan. Facing the speakers, the entire area to my right is open to the dining room and kitchen. There are none and won't be any room dividers. I had a similar setup in my previous home where my system was based toward the left wall (facing forward). How this kind of a floor plan affects room acoustics I have no idea. Maybe some day, in a different house, I'll be able to have a room dedicated solely for audio.
-
Nick, I don't know if this bears repeating or not but if I understand the Starkrimson Ultra amp design, it is a balanced output design where both negative and positive terminals are hot and it wouldn't be a good day
if it's speaker outputs were connected to the speaker level inputs of a subwoofer.
The magic smoke might escape from two devices simultaneously.
Apologies if this comment is redundant.
Scotty
-
Nick, I don't know if this bears repeating or not but if I understand the Starkrimson Ultra amp design, it is a balanced output design where both negative and positive terminals are hot and it wouldn't be a good day
if it's speaker outputs were connected to the speaker level inputs of a subwoofer.
The magic smoke might escape from two devices simultaneously.
Apologies if this comment is redundant.
Scotty
Scotty,
As i'm not a technically knowledgeable guy, all this bears repeating, so thank you! Jack has privately mentioned the problem with speaker connections and Class D amps. The subs I'm focusing in on are the RSL Speedwoofer Mk II which have speaker and line connections. The Speedwoofers are 10" which should be just fine for what I'm trying to accomplish. I also sent Leo at Orchard Audio an email tonight. Jack and Dave both recommended the RSL and it was my first choice as well...$449 each and shipping included. I'm 96.4% sure I'll be ordering these shortly 😉
-
Editorial comment:
About a year ago, at his suggestion and goodwill, an audio club member who swears by and uses a balanced power transformer, lent me one. I forget the model, but it was not a very high model as these things go. I could have purchased it from him for $500. There are some that are north of $5000.
I heard an immediately obvious *difference* in the sound. Some, like this audio club member, swear by it and only use balanced power.
I then found out, from two different manufacturers, one being Golden Ear (and I recommended their subwoofer herein this thread) that if one uses balanced power, it will void their manufacturer warranty. Balanced power can also lead to the outer casing of an amplifier becoming "electric" to the touch.
I googled the technology and read 30 minutes of material about it. You could too, if you don't already know.
I'm trying to understand if balanced power is completely different than a balanced circuit. I think it is. With the OPs permission, I believe @_Scotty_ is an engineer, so I'd appreciate a brief explanation/clarification, provided it doesn't hijack this thread.
In any case, my editorial shall end by stating that in my system, the use of balanced power produces such a profound difference in the sound presentation, that if I were subjected to a blind test and asked which power is being used, I would be able to answer correctly one hundred percent of the time.
Best.
Hal
-
The Starkrimson Ultra amp is a BTL or bridge tied load amplifier. Here are some links to explanations
of this type of amplifier design from simple to complex.
https://www.analog.com/en/design-center/glossary/bridge-tied_load.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridged_and_paralleled_amplifiers
https://www.eeeguide.com/bridge-tied-load-amplifier/
I am not an engineer.
Scotty
-
Mostly Off Topic Sidebar, ignore as desired.
As far balanced power VS plugging straight into the wall AC. The downside is that in most cases
the amplifier circuitry wants to see as low an impedance as the it can get near theoretical zero in regards to the AC supplied from the wall outlet.
Powercords, power filters and devices such as an Equatech all act to raise impedance.
If one looks at the rise time of a current spike waveform on its way from the wall to your amplifier
the peak of the waveform will be noticeably rounded off by the insertion of the power filter
and the Equatech. In the case of noise and damaging current spikes this is a good thing,
as far as meeting your amplifiers demands for high amounts of current for instantaneous
peaks in the music program, not so much.
This is a case of your milage may vary. It may be the cats' meow or not.
It may also prove useful for reducing circulating ground currents in equipment
where they are problematic. That would subject to trial and error testing during design.
It would be beneficial to solve those problems in the first place as they cause increased distortion
at the output of the circuit or device.
Scotty
-
I too have an open floor plan- which makes any speaker placement an adventure. I went the bigger is better route to try and compensate for the bass leaking out of one open side of the room. That worked up to a point, then the other (left) side became boomy because there was just too much woofage.
I wound up with open baffle speakers which don’t fight the room in the same way, but also don’t provide much bass slam for my tastes. Hence the two subs. There’re many controls on subs allowing you to tailor the sound for your room, not to mention all the DSP solutions that are common today. Maybe if I wasn’t such a purist (or Luddite), I’d try them.
Getting a sub, and then a second one, has been a challenging but very rewarding pursuit.
Happy hunting.
-
The Starkrimson Ultra amp is a BTL or bridge tied load amplifier. Here are some links to explanations
of this type of amplifier design from simple to complex.
https://www.analog.com/en/design-center/glossary/bridge-tied_load.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridged_and_paralleled_amplifiers
https://www.eeeguide.com/bridge-tied-load-amplifier/
I am not an engineer.
Scotty
I contacted Leo at Orchard Audio and he recommended looking at the REL website for specifics on how to connect REL subs to Class D amps. Here's the link and what I copied from their website. He says his customers have done this with good results....
https://rel.net/blog/2017-12-27/how-to/connect-rel-class-d-gear/
"BLOG
Connecting Your REL Class-D: A Step-by-Step Guide for Optimal Sound
ToneAudio Product of the Year: 212SE
With so many new RELs finding homes this time of year, and many first-time owners running AV receivers which are increasingly migrating to Class D, we thought this was a perfect time to guide new owners through how to properly connect their new REL to a Class D amp or receiver.
Hot Tip:
If you pick up the receiver and it simply feels incredibly light compared to the boat anchor receiver you used to own, it’s likely a Class D. Of course, you should still verify this with the manual or by contacting the manufacturer.
One of REL’s great advantages over conventional subwoofers is our filter architecture and the precise way that we connect High Level. But different amplifier types require slightly different methods for connecting our High Level cable. We’ll be looking at Class D amps and how best to connect your REL to this style of amplifier. Don’t know if your amp or receiver is Class D? First, call the manufacturer and ask, explain why you are asking. We have had good results with almost every manufacturer except a certain Japanese manufacturer whose 4-letter name begins with S and ends with Y. Over 2 hours on repeat phone calls left us as frustrated as you will surely be with that experience.
The Problem:
So, why does a Class D amp require a different connection than a traditional Class A/B amp? There is something done to the ground plane that is unique in our experience. See, ground should be exactly what it sounds like—a return path of energy back into Mother Earth. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction and for every outflow of electrical energy, there must be a proper, full return of that energy back to earth.
Here’s where Class D amps get weird (not all, but about 90% exhibit the anomaly I will describe next). The Black speaker terminals on the rear of your amp traditionally, and by electrical convention, mean Earth Ground. Zero ohms, zero Hz. Ground. But with most Class D amps, that Black-colored speaker terminal* is no longer ground. Worse, it actually references to a positive voltage that is significant. We consistently measure 10-15 volts ABOVE ground. In practical terms, if your REL were mistakenly connected to a Class D amp or receiver the input of the REL would eventually be burned out because it would be pulling 15 volts through a circuit designed to see zero voltage. Over some period of time—months or a few years, this unwelcome voltage will burn out the front end of your REL.
The Solution:
Fortunately, the solution turns out to be both easy and inexpensive—potentially no cost difference at all if your system is theater-based.
On the REL High Level cable go ahead and connect up the Red (R+) and the Yellow (L+) leads as usual. “Float” the Black wire (do not connect it to anything), in fact, snip off the portion that is pre-stripped and wrap it in electrical tape to avoid accidental shorting out later on.
Next, connect a long RCA-RCA interconnect from either an unused input on a preamp or receiver to the REL’s .1/LFE input. Do this even if you have no interest in theater, you are creating an audio ground, nothing more. This is true for 2-channel systems, we are not using the .1 LFE input for anything more than to produce ground.
If you are running this in a theater system, you’re done; run your usual .1/LFE cable and float the black wire and you’re done.
*One final call out, NAD recently introduced two new integrated amplifiers. We would like to commend them for specifically choosing Blue for their “Non-Hot” speaker terminal. Rather than Red/Black, the Red/Blue scheme gets people wondering why the color is different.
Along with our friends at Peachtree Audio, the NAD folks also added an old-fashioned knurled chassis ground bolt which makes it even easier than we described to obtain true ground on this style of amp. We salute these customer-centric companies.
In the case of a chassis ground bolt like this, please DO connect the Black wire to this bolt. "
I will be contacting Joe Rodgers at RSL for his comments.
Nick
-
I too have an open floor plan- which makes any speaker placement an adventure. I went the bigger is better route to try and compensate for the bass leaking out of one open side of the room. That worked up to a point, then the other (left) side became boomy because there was just too much woofage.
I wound up with open baffle speakers which don’t fight the room in the same way, but also don’t provide much bass slam for my tastes. Hence the two subs. There’re many controls on subs allowing you to tailor the sound for your room, not to mention all the DSP solutions that are common today. Maybe if I wasn’t such a purist (or Luddite), I’d try them.
Getting a sub, and then a second one, has been a challenging but very rewarding pursuit.
Happy hunting.
Well, it's been an adventure and a challenge to get to this point. As I know very little about all this, try to have an open, receptive mind and have some very smart, experienced and nice guys helping me, it should work out.
I think the RSL Speedwoofer 10 Mk II is a good choice for budget considerations and performance and will await what Joe Rodgers says as well.
-
The REL explanation applies to their subs that use Class AB amps and connecting them speaker level to Class D amps. I know many people who followed those instructions with either Class D or differentially balanced amps that ended up with humming subs. In your case if you want to connect the Speedwoofers to the Starkrimson Ultra via speaker level then you are connecting Class D to Class D. See what Joe says as I'm sure he has dealt with it before. Easiest way in your case is obviously to connect the subs line level and avoid all the grounding issues.
-
The REL explanation applies to their subs that use Class AB amps and connecting them speaker level to Class D amps. I know many people who followed those instructions with either Class D or differentially balanced amps that ended up with humming subs. In your case if you want to connect the Speedwoofers to the Starkrimson Ultra via speaker level then you are connecting Class D to Class D. See what Joe says as I'm sure he has dealt with it before. Easiest way in your case is obviously to connect the subs line level and avoid all the grounding issues.
I want to keep things simple, get the best sound I can and not have my gear suddenly emitting lots of smoke 😳 I am fine using line level. I know that a couple of very experienced guys here prefer the speaker connections. Joe Rodgers has already gotten back to me and told me to follow his original instructions.... get a Y adapter and use line level and that's it. Joe also told me that he thinks using one sub for my space would work just fine. I am fine buying 2 subs, but will ponder that a bit more.
I appreciate all the information and opinions from guys here far more experienced than I am. It also reinforces the premise that there can often be different paths to achieve the same excellent result.
-
No need for a y-splitter as you have three sets of RCA outputs on the Chardonnay. Once you get whatever you decide on up and running line level if you want to try it speaker level, which in some cases is preferable, then I can walk you through it so there is no smoke involved. It's just not as "foolproof" as the REL guys make it out to be doing it their way. Between the two houses for now I have two systems set up each way based entirely on how and where the gear is set up.
-
No need for a y-splitter as you have three sets of RCA outputs on the Chardonnay. Once you get whatever you decide on up and running line level if you want to try it speaker level, which in some cases is preferable, then I can walk you through it so there is no smoke involved. It's just not as "foolproof" as the REL guys make it out to be doing it their way. Between the two houses for now I have two systems set up each way based entirely on how and where the gear is set up.
I have no preference for line level vs speaker connection at this point. Just keeping things simple would be the best for now. I've been watching a number of utube videos on sub connection preferences. Just saw one from Paul McGowan that was interesting.
-
Mostly Off Topic Sidebar, ignore as desired.
As far balanced power VS plugging straight into the wall AC. The downside is that in most cases
the amplifier circuitry wants to see as low an impedance as the it can get near theoretical zero in regards to the AC supplied from the wall outlet.
Powercords, power filters and devices such as an Equatech all act to raise impedance.
If one looks at the rise time of a current spike waveform on its way from the wall to your amplifier
the peak of the waveform will be noticeably rounded off by the insertion of the power filter
and the Equatech. In the case of noise and damaging current spikes this is a good thing,
as far as meeting your amplifiers demands for high amounts of current for instantaneous
peaks in the music program, not so much.
This is a case of your milage may vary. It may be the cats' meow or not.
It may also prove useful for reducing circulating ground currents in equipment
where they are problematic. That would subject to trial and error testing during design.
It would be beneficial to solve those problems in the first place as they cause increased distortion
at the output of the circuit or device.
Scotty
Not a fan of BP for audio for several reasons.
I was doing some work at a local studio that sat on a 400A balanced power transformer installed by PNM, our local utility. Dynamics - transients - were terrible. The BPT was supposed to suppress compressor switching noise from a butcher shop in the same complex.
That is why I developed the BUSSes. Gotta get the output impedance down for instantaneous current delivery. Inductive loads, like transformers, want to see a capacitive input and vice versa. That is the most effective scheme.
Another problem was grounding. BPT employ virtual grounds, so additional protection attention to safety is essential and to prevent hums in some systems.
The implanters I worked on in the semi industry had some spectacular balanced power supplies. They bumped either 480V 3 phase or 600V three phase up to several hundred thousand volts. The Eagle implanter was a 1MegEV tool. Should have seen the size of some of the capacitors! :shock:
-
No need for a y-splitter as you have three sets of RCA outputs on the Chardonnay. Once you get whatever you decide on up and running line level if you want to try it speaker level, which in some cases is preferable, then I can walk you through it so there is no smoke involved. It's just not as "foolproof" as the REL guys make it out to be doing it their way. Between the two houses for now I have two systems set up each way based entirely on how and where the gear is set up.
:thumb:
-
The REL explanation applies to their subs that use Class AB amps and connecting them speaker level to Class D amps. I know many people who followed those instructions with either Class D or differentially balanced amps that ended up with humming subs. In your case if you want to connect the Speedwoofers to the Starkrimson Ultra via speaker level then you are connecting Class D to Class D. See what Joe says as I'm sure he has dealt with it before. Easiest way in your case is obviously to connect the subs line level and avoid all the grounding issues.
I want to keep things simple, get the best sound I can and not have my gear suddenly emitting lots of smoke 😳 I am fine using line level. I know that a couple of very experienced guys here prefer the speaker connections. Joe Rodgers has already gotten back to me and told me to follow his original instructions.... get a Y adapter and use line level and that's it. Joe also told me that he thinks using one sub for my space would work just fine. I am fine buying 2 subs, but will ponder that a bit more.
I appreciate all the information and opinions from guys here far more experienced than I am. It also reinforces the premise that there can often be different paths to achieve the same excellent result.
A lot depends upon the turnover frequency. Pretty much anything below 50Hz "might" get away with a single sub. It is not the sound so much that determines where LF originate. It is the pressure gradient that rushes past at the speed of sound exciting the hair on your body and changes in pressures in ears, sinuses and the change of temperature on your skin as the transient that moves past you. You know: that "feeling" you get when the orchestral concert drum is smacked with a 10Hz-20Hz fundamental. Awesome power!
-
The REL explanation applies to their subs that use Class AB amps and connecting them speaker level to Class D amps. I know many people who followed those instructions with either Class D or differentially balanced amps that ended up with humming subs. In your case if you want to connect the Speedwoofers to the Starkrimson Ultra via speaker level then you are connecting Class D to Class D. See what Joe says as I'm sure he has dealt with it before. Easiest way in your case is obviously to connect the subs line level and avoid all the grounding issues.
I want to keep things simple, get the best sound I can and not have my gear suddenly emitting lots of smoke 😳 I am fine using line level. I know that a couple of very experienced guys here prefer the speaker connections. Joe Rodgers has already gotten back to me and told me to follow his original instructions.... get a Y adapter and use line level and that's it. Joe also told me that he thinks using one sub for my space would work just fine. I am fine buying 2 subs, but will ponder that a bit more.
I appreciate all the information and opinions from guys here far more experienced than I am. It also reinforces the premise that there can often be different paths to achieve the same excellent result.
A lot depends upon the turnover frequency. Pretty much anything below 50Hz "might" get away with a single sub. It is not the sound so much that determines where LF originate. It is the pressure gradient that rushes past at the speed of sound exciting the hair on your body and changes in pressures in ears, sinuses and the change of temperature on your skin as the transient that moves past you. You know: that "feeling" you get when the orchestral concert drum is smacked with a 10Hz-20Hz fundamental. Awesome power!
As wireless isn't a good idea due to latency, my sub location(s) is limited to between the speakers and the rack in the center. I'm inclined to go with gusto and try two. I was emailing Joe Rodgers at RSL about picking them up in person as I have family in so california and that's where RSL is located. He said that'd be fine. Anyway, lots to consider, and thank goodness this is all coming into sharper focus.
PS I don't ever want to bi-wire, bi-amp, tri-amp etc etc so don't even bring it up 😀
-
The REL explanation applies to their subs that use Class AB amps and connecting them speaker level to Class D amps. I know many people who followed those instructions with either Class D or differentially balanced amps that ended up with humming subs. In your case if you want to connect the Speedwoofers to the Starkrimson Ultra via speaker level then you are connecting Class D to Class D. See what Joe says as I'm sure he has dealt with it before. Easiest way in your case is obviously to connect the subs line level and avoid all the grounding issues.
Sounds like a plan! :thumb:
I want to keep things simple, get the best sound I can and not have my gear suddenly emitting lots of smoke 😳 I am fine using line level. I know that a couple of very experienced guys here prefer the speaker connections. Joe Rodgers has already gotten back to me and told me to follow his original instructions.... get a Y adapter and use line level and that's it. Joe also told me that he thinks using one sub for my space would work just fine. I am fine buying 2 subs, but will ponder that a bit more.
I appreciate all the information and opinions from guys here far more experienced than I am. It also reinforces the premise that there can often be different paths to achieve the same excellent result.
A lot depends upon the turnover frequency. Pretty much anything below 50Hz "might" get away with a single sub. It is not the sound so much that determines where LF originate. It is the pressure gradient that rushes past at the speed of sound exciting the hair on your body and changes in pressures in ears, sinuses and the change of temperature on your skin as the transient that moves past you. You know: that "feeling" you get when the orchestral concert drum is smacked with a 10Hz-20Hz fundamental. Awesome power!
As wireless isn't a good idea due to latency, my sub location(s) is limited to between the speakers and the rack in the center. I'm inclined to go with gusto and try two. I was emailing Joe Rodgers at RSL about picking them up in person as I have family in so california and that's where RSL is located. He said that'd be fine. Anyway, lots to consider, and thank goodness this is all coming into sharper focus.
PS I don't ever want to bi-wire, bi-amp, tri-amp etc etc so don't even bring it up 😀
-
The REL explanation applies to their subs that use Class AB amps and connecting them speaker level to Class D amps. I know many people who followed those instructions with either Class D or differentially balanced amps that ended up with humming subs. In your case if you want to connect the Speedwoofers to the Starkrimson Ultra via speaker level then you are connecting Class D to Class D. See what Joe says as I'm sure he has dealt with it before. Easiest way in your case is obviously to connect the subs line level and avoid all the grounding issues.
Sounds like a plan! :thumb:
I want to keep things simple, get the best sound I can and not have my gear suddenly emitting lots of smoke 😳 I am fine using line level. I know that a couple of very experienced guys here prefer the speaker connections. Joe Rodgers has already gotten back to me and told me to follow his original instructions.... get a Y adapter and use line level and that's it. Joe also told me that he thinks using one sub for my space would work just fine. I am fine buying 2 subs, but will ponder that a bit more.
I appreciate all the information and opinions from guys here far more experienced than I am. It also reinforces the premise that there can often be different paths to achieve the same excellent result.
A lot depends upon the turnover frequency. Pretty much anything below 50Hz "might" get away with a single sub. It is not the sound so much that determines where LF originate. It is the pressure gradient that rushes past at the speed of sound exciting the hair on your body and changes in pressures in ears, sinuses and the change of temperature on your skin as the transient that moves past you. You know: that "feeling" you get when the orchestral concert drum is smacked with a 10Hz-20Hz fundamental. Awesome power!
As wireless isn't a good idea due to latency, my sub location(s) is limited to between the speakers and the rack in the center. I'm inclined to go with gusto and try two. I was emailing Joe Rodgers at RSL about picking them up in person as I have family in so california and that's where RSL is located. He said that'd be fine. Anyway, lots to consider, and thank goodness this is all coming into sharper focus.
PS I don't ever want to bi-wire, bi-amp, tri-amp etc etc so don't even bring it up 😀
Had another forum member advise privately that two subs is the way to go. That depending on the xover setting, using only one might require it to be placed more nearfield and centered. If necessary, that wouldn't be doable. Also quite important to me is relieving the load on the JMR 7" drivers.
-
editorial: I've stated it publicly never mind privately. Including here on the forum. No question multiples of two when it comes to subs is the way to go.... I mean night and day difference. Odd NG. Even YES :thumb:
Now for some listening.... TB :thumb:
EDIT: Didn't realize Nick you were even thinking of one sub. Better to have no sub in that instance. Only my opinion, of course.
-
I'm using one Rythmik FT12SE I just got it in May and I have no problem with all the settings you could want. It sounds very good. I could have bought 2 but not in my room size of 16X12. In my opinion of course.
Opinions are like assholes we all have one. :duh
That's why I don't do much on any of the boards.
BTW the Rythmik has some of the best documentation I have ever seen.
-
editorial: I've stated it publicly never mind privately. Including here on the forum. No question multiples of two when it comes to subs is the way to go.... I mean night and day difference. Odd NG. Even YES :thumb:
Now for some listening.... TB :thumb:
EDIT: Didn't realize Nick you were even thinking of one sub. Better to have no sub in that instance. Only my opinion, of course.
How did you know that I read the editorials here and in the newspapers as well?? 😀
Hal, the consensus has been get two subs and be happy. I have a large, open floor plan and I think that would be best for me. I was only considering one sub because Joe Rodgers at RSL knew I was a sub newbie and I think he was trying to be nice and simplify things for me.
-
I'm using one Rythmik FT12SE I just got it in May and I have no problem with all the settings you could want. It sounds very good. I could have bought 2 but not in my room size of 16X12. In my opinion of course.
Opinions are like assholes we all have one. :duh
That's why I don't do much on any of the boards.
BTW the Rythmik has some of the best documentation I have ever seen.
I had been on a quest to try the servo subs from Rythmik and looked at the dual 8" drivers in the FM 8. But they're a $1,000 each and I didn't want to spend that much plus maybe need an external crossover. So after a lot of good advice and private emails to me as well, I've decided on using 2 subs and most likely the very well regarded RSL 10" Speedwoofer Mk II. Now there's a fly in the ointment as a member here saw an ad for 2 used L12 Rythmik servo subs. Same nice small footprint, but a bit heavier at 50 lbs each than the 40 lb RSLs. They are listed on Audiomart for $900 a pair, but I can have them shipped new from Rythmik to my door for $1,206. I'd somewhat consider it if it were a better deal and I could likely pick up the used pair as I have family in so. California. Those Rythmik are line only, which would be my first choice right now for a connection. But they don't have speaker connections, so there'd be no opportunity to try out the speaker connections in the future.
As to your situation, you have a smaller room and if one sub works for you, that's great. As to not posting more, I'm sure you'd have lots to contribute. We all have experiences and opinions. It's fun for me to hear those from others. As I knew nothing about sub use before, I now have enough of a baseline to get started. I did a lot of reading, looked at videos and was open minded to the many comments here. Starting this thread has been extremely helpful for me to get to this point.
-
The latest on my subwoofer quest....
The seller of 2 used Rythmik L12s never responded to my inquiry and I never found any other good deals on used subs. So today I placed an order for 2 Rythmik L12 servo subs. The price is good at $1,200 delivered. The small size is quite good in between my rack and Reynaud speakers and at 50 lbs each, they're quite manageable. I will be using gliders just like the Reynauds that come with them from the factory.
I appreciate all the information and suggestions. It allowed me, after a time, to narrow my focus and decide on the L12s. I have been curious about servo subs for quite a while. I remember asking about subs here a few years ago, but then I was only using the KEF LS 50s. This Reynaud 2 way is excellent and the best speaker I've owned. I had Bob Smith's SP Tech Timepiece 2 speakers for a few years and they were excellent, but a bit ruthless sometimes on the top end. Not the JMR....
-
The latest on my subwoofer quest....
The seller of 2 used Rythmik L12s never responded to my inquiry and I never found any other good deals on used subs. So today I placed an order for 2 Rythmik L12 servo subs. The price is good at $1,200 delivered. The small size is quite good in between my rack and Reynaud speakers and at 50 lbs each, they're quite manageable. I will be using gliders just like the Reynauds that come with them from the factory.
I appreciate all the information and suggestions. It allowed me, after a time, to narrow my focus and decide on the L12s. I have been curious about servo subs for quite a while. I remember asking about subs here a few years ago, but then I was only using the KEF LS 50s. This Reynaud 2 way is excellent and the best speaker I've owned. I had Bob Smith's SP Tech Timepiece 2 speakers for a few years and they were excellent, but a bit ruthless sometimes on the top end. Not the JMR....
Just wait.
Heh, heh...
:thumb:
-
I predict that the earth will move. 😁
-
I predict that the earth will move. 😁
Indeed.
Until one hears a true, full range system they haven't lived! :thumb:
-
I predict that the earth will move. 😁
Indeed.
Until one hears a true, full range system they haven't lived! :thumb:
August 14 delivery.....
https://giphy.com/gifs/looneytunes-scared-bored-2uwZ4xi75JhxZYeyQB
-
The Starkrimson Ultra amp is a BTL or bridge tied load amplifier. Here are some links to explanations
of this type of amplifier design from simple to complex.
https://www.analog.com/en/design-center/glossary/bridge-tied_load.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridged_and_paralleled_amplifiers
https://www.eeeguide.com/bridge-tied-load-amplifier/
I am not an engineer.
Scotty
I contacted Leo at Orchard Audio and he recommended looking at the REL website for specifics on how to connect REL subs to Class D amps. Here's the link and what I copied from their website. He says his customers have done this with good results....
https://rel.net/blog/2017-12-27/how-to/connect-rel-class-d-gear/
"BLOG
Connecting Your REL Class-D: A Step-by-Step Guide for Optimal Sound
ToneAudio Product of the Year: 212SE
With so many new RELs finding homes this time of year, and many first-time owners running AV receivers which are increasingly migrating to Class D, we thought this was a perfect time to guide new owners through how to properly connect their new REL to a Class D amp or receiver.
Hot Tip:
If you pick up the receiver and it simply feels incredibly light compared to the boat anchor receiver you used to own, it’s likely a Class D. Of course, you should still verify this with the manual or by contacting the manufacturer.
One of REL’s great advantages over conventional subwoofers is our filter architecture and the precise way that we connect High Level. But different amplifier types require slightly different methods for connecting our High Level cable. We’ll be looking at Class D amps and how best to connect your REL to this style of amplifier. Don’t know if your amp or receiver is Class D? First, call the manufacturer and ask, explain why you are asking. We have had good results with almost every manufacturer except a certain Japanese manufacturer whose 4-letter name begins with S and ends with Y. Over 2 hours on repeat phone calls left us as frustrated as you will surely be with that experience.
The Problem:
So, why does a Class D amp require a different connection than a traditional Class A/B amp? There is something done to the ground plane that is unique in our experience. See, ground should be exactly what it sounds like—a return path of energy back into Mother Earth. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction and for every outflow of electrical energy, there must be a proper, full return of that energy back to earth.
Here’s where Class D amps get weird (not all, but about 90% exhibit the anomaly I will describe next). The Black speaker terminals on the rear of your amp traditionally, and by electrical convention, mean Earth Ground. Zero ohms, zero Hz. Ground. But with most Class D amps, that Black-colored speaker terminal* is no longer ground. Worse, it actually references to a positive voltage that is significant. We consistently measure 10-15 volts ABOVE ground. In practical terms, if your REL were mistakenly connected to a Class D amp or receiver the input of the REL would eventually be burned out because it would be pulling 15 volts through a circuit designed to see zero voltage. Over some period of time—months or a few years, this unwelcome voltage will burn out the front end of your REL.
The Solution:
Fortunately, the solution turns out to be both easy and inexpensive—potentially no cost difference at all if your system is theater-based.
On the REL High Level cable go ahead and connect up the Red (R+) and the Yellow (L+) leads as usual. “Float” the Black wire (do not connect it to anything), in fact, snip off the portion that is pre-stripped and wrap it in electrical tape to avoid accidental shorting out later on.
Next, connect a long RCA-RCA interconnect from either an unused input on a preamp or receiver to the REL’s .1/LFE input. Do this even if you have no interest in theater, you are creating an audio ground, nothing more. This is true for 2-channel systems, we are not using the .1 LFE input for anything more than to produce ground.
If you are running this in a theater system, you’re done; run your usual .1/LFE cable and float the black wire and you’re done.
*One final call out, NAD recently introduced two new integrated amplifiers. We would like to commend them for specifically choosing Blue for their “Non-Hot” speaker terminal. Rather than Red/Black, the Red/Blue scheme gets people wondering why the color is different.
Along with our friends at Peachtree Audio, the NAD folks also added an old-fashioned knurled chassis ground bolt which makes it even easier than we described to obtain true ground on this style of amp. We salute these customer-centric companies.
In the case of a chassis ground bolt like this, please DO connect the Black wire to this bolt. "
I will be contacting Joe Rodgers at RSL for his comments.
Nick
The REL manual also gives you directions on how to connect differential output amplifiers. You can see that here:
https://rel.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/REL_Tx_Manual_12-20_11_WEB.pdf
My Starkrimson amps have differential outputs.
-
The Starkrimson Ultra amp is a BTL or bridge tied load amplifier. Here are some links to explanations
of this type of amplifier design from simple to complex.
https://www.analog.com/en/design-center/glossary/bridge-tied_load.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridged_and_paralleled_amplifiers
https://www.eeeguide.com/bridge-tied-load-amplifier/
I am not an engineer.
Scotty
I contacted Leo at Orchard Audio and he recommended looking at the REL website for specifics on how to connect REL subs to Class D amps. Here's the link and what I copied from their website. He says his customers have done this with good results....
https://rel.net/blog/2017-12-27/how-to/connect-rel-class-d-gear/
"BLOG
Connecting Your REL Class-D: A Step-by-Step Guide for Optimal Sound
ToneAudio Product of the Year: 212SE
With so many new RELs finding homes this time of year, and many first-time owners running AV receivers which are increasingly migrating to Class D, we thought this was a perfect time to guide new owners through how to properly connect their new REL to a Class D amp or receiver.
Hot Tip:
If you pick up the receiver and it simply feels incredibly light compared to the boat anchor receiver you used to own, it’s likely a Class D. Of course, you should still verify this with the manual or by contacting the manufacturer.
One of REL’s great advantages over conventional subwoofers is our filter architecture and the precise way that we connect High Level. But different amplifier types require slightly different methods for connecting our High Level cable. We’ll be looking at Class D amps and how best to connect your REL to this style of amplifier. Don’t know if your amp or receiver is Class D? First, call the manufacturer and ask, explain why you are asking. We have had good results with almost every manufacturer except a certain Japanese manufacturer whose 4-letter name begins with S and ends with Y. Over 2 hours on repeat phone calls left us as frustrated as you will surely be with that experience.
The Problem:
So, why does a Class D amp require a different connection than a traditional Class A/B amp? There is something done to the ground plane that is unique in our experience. See, ground should be exactly what it sounds like—a return path of energy back into Mother Earth. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction and for every outflow of electrical energy, there must be a proper, full return of that energy back to earth.
Here’s where Class D amps get weird (not all, but about 90% exhibit the anomaly I will describe next). The Black speaker terminals on the rear of your amp traditionally, and by electrical convention, mean Earth Ground. Zero ohms, zero Hz. Ground. But with most Class D amps, that Black-colored speaker terminal* is no longer ground. Worse, it actually references to a positive voltage that is significant. We consistently measure 10-15 volts ABOVE ground. In practical terms, if your REL were mistakenly connected to a Class D amp or receiver the input of the REL would eventually be burned out because it would be pulling 15 volts through a circuit designed to see zero voltage. Over some period of time—months or a few years, this unwelcome voltage will burn out the front end of your REL.
The Solution:
Fortunately, the solution turns out to be both easy and inexpensive—potentially no cost difference at all if your system is theater-based.
On the REL High Level cable go ahead and connect up the Red (R+) and the Yellow (L+) leads as usual. “Float” the Black wire (do not connect it to anything), in fact, snip off the portion that is pre-stripped and wrap it in electrical tape to avoid accidental shorting out later on.
Next, connect a long RCA-RCA interconnect from either an unused input on a preamp or receiver to the REL’s .1/LFE input. Do this even if you have no interest in theater, you are creating an audio ground, nothing more. This is true for 2-channel systems, we are not using the .1 LFE input for anything more than to produce ground.
If you are running this in a theater system, you’re done; run your usual .1/LFE cable and float the black wire and you’re done.
*One final call out, NAD recently introduced two new integrated amplifiers. We would like to commend them for specifically choosing Blue for their “Non-Hot” speaker terminal. Rather than Red/Black, the Red/Blue scheme gets people wondering why the color is different.
Along with our friends at Peachtree Audio, the NAD folks also added an old-fashioned knurled chassis ground bolt which makes it even easier than we described to obtain true ground on this style of amp. We salute these customer-centric companies.
In the case of a chassis ground bolt like this, please DO connect the Black wire to this bolt. "
I will be contacting Joe Rodgers at RSL for his comments.
Nick
The REL manual also gives you directions on how to connect differential output amplifiers. You can see that here:
https://rel.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/REL_Tx_Manual_12-20_11_WEB.pdf
My Starkrimson amps have differential outputs.
Thank you, Leo. I looked at a number of subs, but finally decided on the entry level L12 servos from Rythmik which are line only. I will keep the REL information for future sub purchases.
Nick
PS am quite enjoying your Starkrimson Ultra!
-
I like options 8) :thumb:
Seriously, Nick. Best of luck with them. I checked the manufacturer website and ASR measurements. You've got your ears full, in a good way. :)
-
I like options 8) :thumb:
Seriously, Nick. Best of luck with them. I checked the manufacturer website and ASR measurements. You've got your ears full, in a good way. :)
Thanks, Hal. I had enough options within the price and performance parameters to make a good, entry level, first time subwoofer choice. I will also be able to satisfy my curiousity about servo subs. It just took a while to get through the process.
As to integration with my JMR speakers, I'm told that will take time and patience. One variable that I won't need to consider is placement as both subs can only fit between the rack and speakers.
-
Nick,
I’ve been silent recently cuz I’ve been pretty busy. Anyway, I suspect you will enjoy your L12 subs. I bought one for my son’s and daughter-in-law’s little audio system a couple years ago. It worked well in their room and sounded pretty good to my ears. I’ve owned an F12G for several years, and am very pleased with it.
Enjoy!
Michael
-
Nick,
I’ve been silent recently cuz I’ve been pretty busy. Anyway, I suspect you will enjoy your L12 subs. I bought one for my son’s and daughter-in-law’s little audio system a couple years ago. It worked well in their room and sounded pretty good to my ears. I’ve owned an F12G for several years, and am very pleased with it.
Enjoy!
Michael
Thanks Michael. Busy is good, but hopefully you are not too overloaded and stressed. The F12G looks nice...a bit larger, heavier and more expensive than my L12. About 10 days till they're here. Interconnects and in-line filters coming as well. I assume your son has his audio hobby/appreciation under control, yes?? :)
Nick
-
Nick,
Neither my son nor his wife shares our passion for pouring $$$$ into audio gear, so they’re unlikely to spend any money in that pursuit. They’re planning for baby number one sometime next year (no pregnancy announcement yet), and a new larger vehicle may be added before too much longer. Our son still drives our old ‘03 4-cylinder Accord. It’s getting old, but it’s still in good condition and is much cheaper than buying a new SUV.
Looking forward to your impressions.
Michael
-
Nick,
Neither my son nor his wife shares our passion for pouring $$$$ into audio gear, so they’re unlikely to spend any money in that pursuit. They’re planning for baby number one sometime next year (no pregnancy announcement yet), and a new larger vehicle may be added before too much longer. Our son still drives our old ‘03 4-cylinder Accord. It’s getting old, but it’s still in good condition and is much cheaper than buying a new SUV.
Looking forward to your impressions.
Michael
Michael,
It's good your son and daughter in law enjoy music, but have not gone "off the deep end" like some of us...🙄😀
In spite of the 💰💰💰 I've spent over the years, I love music and audio and will give you my impressions soon
Nick
-
I've had the subwoofers for about 10 days. Never could find any spare ICs in the garage, so I bought the WBC Gotham subwoofer cables on Amazon and hooked up the subs this afternoon. Those WBC cables are a very good bargain. How nice to also have multiple pre outs. Thanks Supratek!
Everything from Rythmik is first class with this pair of L12 servo subs. Great packaging, very nice fit and finish and pricing on their entry level subs. Easy to understand instructions and a nice diagram.
I don't yet have the custom inline filters yet, so my JMR Voce Grandes are playing full range and the subs are set at 40Hz. It sounds nice already and am appreciating a better midrange. I'm going to play a lot of music and let things settle and not make any adjustments. As this is my first venture into subs, I'll just appreciate the learning experience.
-
I've had the subwoofers for about 10 days. Never could find any spare ICs in the garage, so I bought the WBC Gotham subwoofer cables on Amazon and hooked up the subs this afternoon. Those WBC cables are a very good bargain. How nice to also have multiple pre outs. Thanks Supratek!
Everything from Rythmik is first class with this pair of L12 servo subs. Great packaging, very nice fit and finish and pricing on their entry level subs. Easy to understand instructions and a nice diagram.
I don't yet have the custom inline filters yet, so my JMR Voce Grandes are playing full range and the subs are set at 40Hz. It sounds nice already and am appreciating a better midrange. I'm going to play a lot of music and let things settle and not make any adjustments. As this is my first venture into subs, I'll just appreciate the learning experience.
This will get better. 👍🏼
-
I've had the subwoofers for about 10 days. Never could find any spare ICs in the garage, so I bought the WBC Gotham subwoofer cables on Amazon and hooked up the subs this afternoon. Those WBC cables are a very good bargain. How nice to also have multiple pre outs. Thanks Supratek!
Everything from Rythmik is first class with this pair of L12 servo subs. Great packaging, very nice fit and finish and pricing on their entry level subs. Easy to understand instructions and a nice diagram.
I don't yet have the custom inline filters yet, so my JMR Voce Grandes are playing full range and the subs are set at 40Hz. It sounds nice already and am appreciating a better midrange. I'm going to play a lot of music and let things settle and not make any adjustments. As this is my first venture into subs, I'll just appreciate the learning experience.
This will get better. 👍🏼
:beer: :thumb:
-
Nick, have you tried out the Parametric Equalizer in the MUSE suite to roll off the lows
in the JMR Voce Grandes yet. Inquiring minds want to know. aa
Scotty
-
Nick, have you tried out the Parametric Equalizer in the MUSE suite to roll off the lows
in the JMR Voce Grandes yet. Inquiring minds want to know. aa
Scotty
Yes, yes we do! :thumb:
-
Nick, have you tried out the Parametric Equalizer in the MUSE suite to roll off the lows
in the JMR Voce Grandes yet. Inquiring minds want to know. aa
Scotty
Scotty and Dave,
No I haven't. Didn't even think about it 🤷 Am just enjoying what I have right now and am playing a lot of tunes I'm very familiar with. I will probably try it in a couple of days though. As I mentioned, the subs are set at 45Hz right now. I think Dave believes the sweet spot will be 70-80 based on the JMR drivers , which I'm pretty sure are 7". Back to the hard work .... 😊🎶🎶
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Congrats- I’m sure you’ll enjoy your new subs. I wish I could remember all the setup and testing I did when integrating two subs into my system. As I do I’ll post, but one that you’ll surely need is to level the spl of one sub to the other.
I have an asymmetrical room like you, and the sub with a true corner has to be one hash mark lower on the volume dial than the one on the open side. The corner really does amplify things.
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Congrats- I’m sure you’ll enjoy your new subs. I wish I could remember all the setup and testing I did when integrating two subs into my system. As I do I’ll post, but one that you’ll surely need is to level the spl of one sub to the other.
I have an asymmetrical room like you, and the sub with a true corner has to be one hash mark lower on the volume dial than the one on the open side. The corner really does amplify things.
The last time I had a symmetrical room was back in so. California over 20 years ago. Eventually I'll get them dialed in. I know nothing about the process, but have some instructions from Rythmik, some smart guys here and plenty of utube videos as well. Should work out just fine. For 12" subs, they take up very little space and fit right in.
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The subs are slowly breaking in and still set at 45Hz. Very pleased so far 👍
I also wanted to comment on my JM Reynaud Voce Grande speakers. Damn... what a great 2 way and that AST/AMT is so good. It's about 6.5" and goes down to 1200Hz. The clarity, ease, presence, tonality is very special. So I'm curious if anyone else has experience with the air striction/air motion tweeters.
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A friend that bought Heil AMT-1B's in college still has them. Has the larger dipole version of the AMT. Very clean mids and highs.
Only problem was the passive radiator foam woofer surround that had to be replaced on both speakers. Standard maintenance for those.
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The subs are slowly breaking in and still set at 45Hz. Very pleased so far 👍
I also wanted to comment on my JM Reynaud Voce Grande speakers. Damn... what a great 2 way and that AST/AMT is so good. It's about 6.5" and goes down to 1200Hz. The clarity, ease, presence, tonality is very special. So I'm curious if anyone else has experience with the air striction/air motion tweeters.
I have an "HVFR" tweeter, which stands for high velocity folded ribbon, in my Triton Reference speakers. They are AMT, but GoldenEar does not use that term. They are superb. The HVFR tweeter is used in all other Triton Tower models, however, the one in the Reference has 50% more neodymium magnetic material than the rest of the lineup.
:thumb:
EDIT: So apparently GE is (now) able to use the acronym "AMT" (in addition to HVFR). Perhaps their being bought by Audioquest had something to do with it. At one point they avoided AMT in their specs, now they don't. https://www.goldenear.com/full-range-tower-speakers/triton-series/triton-reference Also, I do know for a fact that the specs of all Triton speakers are "better" than what's stated on the website. You can verify that by checking the user manuals, which weren't updated. Audioquest chose to use ultra-conservative specifications 8)
From the GE product catalog PDF file: High-Velocity Folded Ribbon (HVFR™) Tweeter ; Rather than pushing air like a traditional tweeter, an HVFR tweeter propagates soundwaves and moves the air by squeezing it with its accordion-like pleated diaphragm. Its efficiency, low mass, and large radiating area ensure lower distortion than other tweeter designs in its price range. These HVFR attributes contribute greatly to GoldenEar’s effortless sound and 3D imaging. The Triton Reference, One.R, and BRX (Bookshelf Reference X) use a “Reference” version of this tweeter with a larger magnet structure for greater efficiency, control, and lower distortion.
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A friend that bought Heil AMT-1B's in college still has them. Has the larger dipole version of the AMT. Very clean mids and highs.
Only problem was the passive radiator foam woofer surround that had to be replaced on both speakers. Standard maintenance for those.
When I have some time, I'll read up on the history of Heil and how it differs from the AST. I've heard of Heil, but not sure if I've heard them at shows or if any of the audio club guys ever owned them.
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A friend that bought Heil AMT-1B's in college still has them. Has the larger dipole version of the AMT. Very clean mids and highs.
Only problem was the passive radiator foam woofer surround that had to be replaced on both speakers. Standard maintenance for those.
When I have some time, I'll read up on the history of Heil and how it differs from the AST. I've heard of Heil, but not sure if I've heard them at shows or if any of the audio club guys ever owned them.
If you discover the difference in AST vs AMT please report your findings. I'd like to know myself. From what I do know, they are essentially the same. The AMT technology was invented by Heil. In all likelihood, there are royalties associated with using that term. Hence why GoldenEar uses HVFR and another manufacturer may use AST.
In any case, according to Sandy Gross, the best tweeter possible in today's technology is a plasma tweeter. Lansche top-of-the-line speakers use them. Other than that, an excellent horn-loaded design can be very formidable.
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A friend that bought Heil AMT-1B's in college still has them. Has the larger dipole version of the AMT. Very clean mids and highs.
Only problem was the passive radiator foam woofer surround that had to be replaced on both speakers. Standard maintenance for those.
When I have some time, I'll read up on the history of Heil and how it differs from the AST. I've heard of Heil, but not sure if I've heard them at shows or if any of the audio club guys ever owned them.
If you discover the difference in AST vs AMT please report your findings. I'd like to know myself. From what I do know, they are essentially the same. The AMT technology was invented by Heil. In all likelihood, there are royalties associated with using that term. Hence why GoldenEar uses HVFR and another manufacturer may use AST.
In any case, according to Sandy Gross, the best tweeter possible in today's technology is a plasma tweeter. Lansche top-of-the-line speakers use them. Other than that, an excellent horn-loaded design can be very formidable.
So far, AST/AMT appear to be the same. As to plasma tweeters, I did a very brief search earlier and came across Lansche. I may have heard a plasma tweeter years ago in so. California at a very high end store in the Brentwood/Beverly Hills area. It was not pleasant. But I'm blaming the dealer on that one and never went back....
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I have put a lot of hours on the subs. Lost track, but 250 at least. Lots of boom boom thump thump…hour after hour, day after day…It was only a connection into the subs, not with the JMR Voce Grande as well. But after the monotony of it all, I hooked things up last night and things really sound good! The Rythmik are very complimentary and add such substance and fullness. I have not attempted to dial them in at all, use the REW software, or use the inline filters which should arrive soon. I just don’t have the time right now. But I’m quite happy right now and thanks for the help to get me to this point
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I am a late comer, did not read any recommendations, but I have REL subs and they seemed to be
quite descent. The RELs I heard did not have any remote, however, if that is a deal breaker.
cheers
steve
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I am a late comer, did not read any recommendations, but I have REL subs and they seemed to be
quite descent. The RELs I heard did not have any remote, however, if that is a deal breaker.
cheers
steve
Steve,
I got two Rythmik L12s and they are broken in and sounding quite good. $600 each and a small footprint and nice looking. Need to get a mic and use REW software. But that’s on the to do list as I need to complete the interior of my house before Thanksgiving. I moved last November
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OK, I have succumbed to the 2 subs rec. I have cleared my room of most of the furniture it was a matter of space. I was planning to do this when I got the first F12SE Rythmik in here. It sounds extremely good now. I'll be back with comments after break in.
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OK, I have succumbed to the 2 subs rec. I have cleared my room of most of the furniture it was a matter of space. I was planning to do this when I got the first F12SE Rythmik in here. It sounds extremely good now. I'll be back with comments after break in.
Given the *2*, you've succumbed for the betterment, sonically. :)
"Break in" should be swift, not the the Taylor type mind you. :D :thumb:
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Congrats on the second sub Den.
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OK, I have succumbed to the 2 subs rec. I have cleared my room of most of the furniture it was a matter of space. I was planning to do this when I got the first F12SE Rythmik in here. It sounds extremely good now. I'll be back with comments after break in.
Congrats! I’m quite happy with mine and they’re entry level Rythmik. I received some good advice here and am enjoying the results right now 🎶🎶
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The great Sub fiasco. Stay tuned for more.
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Fiasco?
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The great Sub fiasco. Stay tuned for more.
Mine haven’t been hooked up for a while. I’ll be quite interested to hear what’s been going on with yours….
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The great Sub fiasco. Stay tuned for more.
Mine haven’t been hooked up for a while. I’ll be quite interested to hear what’s been going on with yours….
Why?
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The great Sub fiasco. Stay tuned for more.
Mine haven’t been hooked up for a while. I’ll be quite interested to hear what’s been going on with yours….
Why?
When I had them on as the Supratek preamp was dying with the left channel and later with the right, there was a persistent loud thump coming out of the left sub when turning on/off. After switching tubes, interconnects, etc I decided I wanted to just simplify my system for a time. With the addition of the Hattor Big preamp, everything is playing flawlessly and sounding great. I also bought Pete’s HP Digital American II power cord and wanted to continue to evaluate changes in the system without adding anything back in for the time being.
By the way, Pete’s power cord from wall to UberBUSS is very, very good 👍 The full loom of the Audio Envy power cords gave me a nice improvement, but just this one cord from Pete surpassed that. I’m so glad I gave it a try.
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I figured that would get your interest. I've been in this for over 40 years. Never seen this.
One sub (no names mentioned) purchased last May. 2nd purchased this past Jan.
Mid Jan both subs stopped. All fuses fine all breakers in dedicated room fine. I determined ( thought) it was my CM2 Variable outs.
I sent in my CM2 to Rogue to fix, decided to go for the "Dark upgrade $2300 since it was there.
Everything checked out fine at Rogue on the CM2. I was asked if I still wanted the upgrade. Went for the upgrade anyway it was there already (2 weeks total back to me). Subs still not up and running. All lights and fuses fine, remember the amp is ALL new now.
Still not working on the NEW amp. I pulled one sub amp, sent one Amp back for testing. All checked out fine there. Hmmm? Checked driver seemed to not have a blown voice coil. Green light came on the remaining sub to wake up sub amp to play source CD or phono and nothing. I had my electricity checked on that room.
First suspect wires. All wires were tipple checked and switched. I make my own Mogami 2549, a very meticulous build.
You all following this? There more in between, my comments not so good, but I will save space here.
Conclusion, both Subs were sent back yesterday for refund. Why refund? Because it could not be resolved. It was decided to not send 2 more in as replacements. It "had to be my system somewhere". System is pretty much all new especially my Amp, and the old CM2 sent to Rogue checked out fine. I was asked by Rogue if I still wanted the DARK upgrade? I went for it, damn Shipping will kill you now.
In conclusion I was told I was "unreasonable" because the company is a three man company. Nothing derogatory all very polite and congenial throughout on my part. Finally was told "he didn't want to business with me anymore". A little bit put off (WTF really offended) by all that. I'm the customer. Geeeze!
I didn't want to mention any names to jeopardize my refund.
Any I ideas? What's going on?
I have to replace these with something else.
You should see me jockeying these 60+ lbs bitches around to pack and bring down the stairs. My wife says I'm nuts!
Advil time.
Please excuse any bad English :duh
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I figured that would get your interest. I've been in this for over 40 years. Never seen this.
One sub (no names mentioned) purchased last May. 2nd purchased this past Jan.
Mid Jan both subs stopped. All fuses fine all breakers in dedicated room fine. I determined ( thought) it was my CM2 Variable outs.
I sent in my CM2 to Rogue to fix, decided to go for the "Dark upgrade $2300 since it was there.
Everything checked out fine at Rogue on the CM2. I was asked if I still wanted the upgrade. Went for the upgrade anyway it was there already (2 weeks back to me). Subs still not up and running. All lights and fuses fine, remember the amp is ALL new now.
Still not working on the NEW amp. I pulled one sub amp, sent one Amp back for testing. All checked out fine there. Hmmm? Checked driver seemed to not have a blown voice coil. Green light came on the remaining sub to wake up sub amp to play source CD or phono and nothing. I had my electricity checked on that room.
First suspect wires. All wires were tipple checked. I make my own Mogami 2549, a very meticulous build.
You all following this? There more in between, but I will save space here.
Conclusion, both Subs were sent back yesterday for refund. Why refund? Because it could not be resolved. It was decided to not send 2 more in as replacements. It "had to be my system somewhere". System is pretty much all new especially my Amp, and the old CM2 sent to Rogue checked out fine. I was asked by Rogue if I still wanted the DARK upgrade? I went for it, damn Shipping will kill you now.
In conclusion I was told I was "unreasonable" because the company is a three man company. Nothing derogatory all very polite and congenial. Finally was told "he didn't want to business with me anymore". A little bit put off (WTF really offended) by all that. I'm the customer. Geeeze!
I didn't want to mention any names to jeopardize my refund.
Any I ideas? What's going on?
I have to replace these with something else.
You should see me jockeying these 60+ lbs bitches around to pack and bring down the stairs. My wife says I'm nuts!
Advil time.
Wow….thats as weird…or worse…than my saga. I tried so many different changes that I lost track. Soon I’ll add the subs back in and everything should continue to play fine…. I think 🤔
I know an audiophile on the east coast who's quite the sub enthusiast and who was persistent in getting me to try subs. I told him about my adventures and then he suggested I add an external xover like a Marchand or Sublime. No f…….in way will I be doing that. Another box and even more wires and potential for more stuff to go wrong 😠
One thing this has reinforced is that simpler is better. Although I have enjoyed the improvement in SQ overall by adding the subs, I can’t say right now that it’s been worth the effort. I’ll make a final decision within a couple of months whether or not to sell them.
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I figured that would get your interest. I've been in this for over 40 years. Never seen this.
One sub (no names mentioned) purchased last May. 2nd purchased this past Jan.
Mid Jan both subs stopped. All fuses fine all breakers in dedicated room fine. I determined ( thought) it was my CM2 Variable outs.
I sent in my CM2 to Rogue to fix, decided to go for the "Dark upgrade $2300 since it was there.
Everything checked out fine at Rogue on the CM2. I was asked if I still wanted the upgrade. Went for the upgrade anyway it was there already (2 weeks total back to me). Subs still not up and running. All lights and fuses fine, remember the amp is ALL new now.
Still not working on the NEW amp. I pulled one sub amp, sent one Amp back for testing. All checked out fine there. Hmmm? Checked driver seemed to not have a blown voice coil. Green light came on the remaining sub to wake up sub amp to play source CD or phono and nothing. I had my electricity checked on that room.
First suspect wires. All wires were tipple checked and switched. I make my own Mogami 2549, a very meticulous build.
You all following this? There more in between, my comments not so good, but I will save space here.
Conclusion, both Subs were sent back yesterday for refund. Why refund? Because it could not be resolved. It was decided to not send 2 more in as replacements. It "had to be my system somewhere". System is pretty much all new especially my Amp, and the old CM2 sent to Rogue checked out fine. I was asked by Rogue if I still wanted the DARK upgrade? I went for it, damn Shipping will kill you now.
In conclusion I was told I was "unreasonable" because the company is a three man company. Nothing derogatory all very polite and congenial throughout on my part. Finally was told "he didn't want to business with me anymore". A little bit put off (WTF really offended) by all that. I'm the customer. Geeeze!
I didn't want to mention any names to jeopardize my refund.
Any I ideas? What's going on?
I have to replace these with something else.
You should see me jockeying these 60+ lbs bitches around to pack and bring down the stairs. My wife says I'm nuts!
Advil time.
Please excuse any bad English :duh
It is really hard to discern things on either end from the outside. I am pretty curious what the problem was however. Sometimes subs have a big loop electrically so there is a concern that something in the chain can have an issue, like a preamp output. Can you confirm putting in any other device will play music, an amp and a speaker? (does not have to be sub, just make sure you get output)
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Not on a brand new amp which it is using line ouput/variable not fixed outputs. Cronus has both variable and fixed. I was told by Rogue to use the variable line out NOT fixed.
After my CM2 complaint checkup from Rogue of course they checked both amps outputs. My Streamer Node2i worked through my Yiggy+ to both amps CM2 and now Dark model, but not the subs.
System is playing perfect and nice sounding now without the subs.
I'll know more Friday.
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My point was to verify the Cronus output, not the subs.
At least you do not require subs to enjoy the stereo, that is a positive, even if not the exact one you wanted.
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Thanks for all input. Yes I understood your point.
All this time I'm sick of screwing with stuff. I was so pissed I was ready to sell everything.
But, we can't do that can we. :shock:
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Thanks for all input. Yes I understood your point.
All this time I'm sick of screwing with stuff. I was so pissed I was ready to sell everything.
But, we can't do that can we. :shock:
Put the device down and slowly back away from any screwy ideas like :shock: "selling things!"
:rofl:
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Thanks for all input. Yes I understood your point.
All this time I'm sick of screwing with stuff. I was so pissed I was ready to sell everything.
But, we can't do that can we. :shock:
Put the device down and slowly back away from any screwy ideas like :shock: "selling things!"
:rofl:
DRN….. do exactly what Dave says! 😆
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Yes that didn't last long. I have different replacements coming Friday.
:p
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Wow, talk about a speedy recovery! 🍷🍸🎉 I hope you get sub…stantial improvement with the new equipment
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Nuking it always sounds fun but ends up being pretty costly.
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DRN, I have some questions regarding your situation. Have you requested a postmortem from the manufacturer of the two subwoofers which quit working. Do you know if there is a timing circuit
present in the preamp which allows the preamplifier circuitry to stabilize before connecting to the
outside world through the preamp out jacks on the back of the amp.
The reason for these questions are that most tube preamp circuitry is single ended and only swings positive
above ground. They are usually cap coupled at their output to block DC from reaching downstream
amplifier stages. There are frequently bleeder resistors to ground from the caps so that they don't sit
with high voltage on them when the amplifier is turned off and not in use.
When the preamplifier stage is first energized the DC blocking caps see a substantial voltage surge
which persists until the cap is fully charged. At this time it can pass a potentially damaging voltage spike
to downstream circuitry. With a timing circuit that keeps the output of the preamp isolated until the caps
have charged and the circuit stabilized this occurrence can be eliminated.
I would hope that most subwoofers are protected from DC and a voltage spike emanating from the source components.
Here is where some rampant speculation comes in relating to my hypothesis about what you have experienced. If the integrated amp is passing a voltage spike to downstream components from its preamp
outputs upon turn on, repeated applications of this to the subwoofers inputs may overwhelmed its input stage and any protective measures it may have had. Both subs initially worked and then subsequently died.
I am not a fan of subs or any other equipment that relies on sensing a signal present and then turning it self on. There is no delay in their activation. If an upstream signal source sends them a high amplitude voltage spike instead of a legitimate signal they may go right ahead and amplify it unless some safety measures are in place. The safety factor in this regard is an unknown unless a subwoofer manufacturer makes a specific
claim regarding it. This goes to the well known practice among
audiophiles of always turning a preamp on first and then the power amp and upon shut down always
turning the power amp off first, and in the case of big ones, waiting until the power supply voltage
has dropped and then turning off the preamp.
These subs are always on and waiting
for a signal and are a parasitic drain on your wallet when it come time to pay the power bill.
Also in the case out of sudden power outage, depending on how your system powers down you can get thumps and other mayhem.
Steve can probably chime in and correct any of my misconceptions regarding my basic assumptions and the speculation which led to my hypothesis.
Hope your new subs are compatible with your system. Have you had time to judge results of the upgrade to
the CM2? Enquiring minds want to know.
Scotty
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Well, it’s official. After a few months of not being hooked up, I put my Rythmik L12s back in this morning with my Hattor preamp and the left sub is dead. Changed power cords and outlets on the UberBUSS to confirm it. I’ll get in touch with Rythmik today….
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Well that's fun. There is a green power indicator light that's always on if it is receiving power.
Other than checking for its presence and verifying that a signal is reaching the unit, that's about all you can do.
I assume you also swapped left and right channels and still had no luck with the misbehaving sub.
If no signal is detected it will do nothing.
Scotty.
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Well that's fun. There is a green power indicator light that's always on if it is receiving power.
Other than checking for its presence and verifying that a signal is reaching the unit, that's about all you can do.
I assume you also swapped left and right channels and still had no luck with the misbehaving sub.
If no signal is detected it will do nothing.
Scotty.
I haven’t run a signal through it, but the right channel sub has the red light indicator on when powered up and when the toggle switch is in the off position and that’s what I remember when they were both working and in the off position.
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Well, it’s official. After a few months of not being hooked up, I put my Rythmik L12s back in this morning with my Hattor preamp and the left sub is dead. Changed power cords and outlets on the UberBUSS to confirm it. I’ll get in touch with Rythmik today….
Not to insult you, but are both sub switches in the auto on position? I ask because I've done this before! :rofl:
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Well, it’s official. After a few months of not being hooked up, I put my Rythmik L12s back in this morning with my Hattor preamp and the left sub is dead. Changed power cords and outlets on the UberBUSS to confirm it. I’ll get in touch with Rythmik today….
Not to insult you, but are both sub switches in the auto on position? I ask because I've done this before! :rofl:
Oh, heck, I’ve done some dumb things before…. But this is a dead amp. Hooked up both subs again. No LFE, rather line outs from the Hattor preamp. Both toggles in off position and then auto and on. Played cuts from my “break in for subs” playlist and zilch out of left channel. No red or green LEDs, no sound, no cabinet vibration.
Brian from Rythmik has already contacted me. I told him I could take the amp out and ship it to him to save him some shipping costs. Am waiting to hear back. I’m assuming these are cheapie amps and he’ll just send me a new one rather than repair it.
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2 new /different up and running puuuurfect.
Nick, Oh fun, NOT!
Brian must be really scratching his head.
Try his hum test. With the sub on green. Take the cable out of the Pre. Hold on to the positive male pin on the end and don't hold the grounded jacket on the plug to the cable. It should hum through the sub. Turn crossover and volume all the way up .
AND don't mention my name.
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2 new /different up and running puuuurfect.
Nick, Oh fun, NOT!
Brian must be really scratching his head.
Try his hum test. With the sub on green. Take the cable out of the Pre. Hold on to the positive male pin on the end and don't hold the grounded jacket on the plug to the cable. It should hum through the sub. Turn crossover and volume all the way up .
AND don't mention my name.
Mums the word, Den 🤫 But there is no green light or red light either. There is no power that I can detect. Maybe it’s gone into “Brigadoon mode”….every 100 days 🤷♀️
If Brian gets it resolved, I’ll be a happy camper and then evaluate if they’re really worth having.
So glad your SVS are working perfectly!
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OK. Let's think this thing through.
Your Supratek had the left channel die.
Your left sub is dead.
Why?
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Did you check the fuse on the sub amp?
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Dave
Chances the left channel going out on the Supratek was related to one of the 1950's RCA's I sent him but could be something else. The other tube is apparently still good.
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OK. Let's think this thing through.
Your Supratek had the left channel die.
Your left sub is dead.
Why?
The last time I checked, both channels were now dead on the Supratek. Jack wants me to hook it up one more time before I send it off to North Carolina under warranty and I was going to do that tonight.
To the best of my recollection, all of this started with the addition of the subs. By that, I mean the very loud and concerning thump in the left channel coming out of the sub when turning the Supratek on and off. I think starting off, I had the Rythmik toggle in the on position, then I switched it to standby mode for operation.
Now I will admit that my usual mo was to leave the Starkrimson amp on 24/7 and just turn the tubed Supratek preamp on/off every night for listening. Whether it was an interaction between these three pieces of equipment, I have no idea.
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Did you check the fuse on the sub amp?
No, will look for it right now….
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Did you check the fuse on the sub amp?
No, will look for it right now….
Ok, the fuse in the IEC was shot. There was a spare in the IEC and I used that one. With the toggle in the off position, I got the standard red LED for a fraction of a second and it blew again.
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OK, apparently that amp has issues and was the cause of the noises you were hearing all along. At least since you have the subs close to the rack on the inside of the speakers you can just use one of them with both of the cables until Brian sends you a new amp.
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OK, apparently that amp has issues and was the cause of the noises you were hearing all along. At least since you have the subs close to the rack on the inside of the speakers you can just use one of them with both of the cables until Brian sends you a new amp.
Ok, then I’ll run the line out on that one side.
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When it comes to your issues it is the typical what died first that killed it's friends?
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When it comes to your issues it is the typical what died first that killed it's friends?
Yikes, have I committed “audiocide”?? A misbehavin’ sub ain’t my friend 💥 Hopefully Brian at Rythmik can make me love subs again…..at least for a time ⏰
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When it comes to your issues it is the typical what died first that killed it's friends?
Yikes, have I committed “audiocide”?? A misbehavin’ sub ain’t my friend 💥 Hopefully Brian at Rythmik can make me love subs again…..at least for a time ⏰
OK, apparently that amp has issues and was the cause of the noises you were hearing all along. At least since you have the subs close to the rack on the inside of the speakers you can just use one of them with both of the cables until Brian sends you a new amp.
You were merely complicit in observing a death wish come to pass.
Brian's customer service has been stellar in the past. It all depends upon his ability to source his goods. He is a very smart, nice human.
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When it comes to your issues it is the typical what died first that killed it's friends?
Yikes, have I committed “audiocide”?? A misbehavin’ sub ain’t my friend 💥 Hopefully Brian at Rythmik can make me love subs again…..at least for a time ⏰
OK, apparently that amp has issues and was the cause of the noises you were hearing all along. At least since you have the subs close to the rack on the inside of the speakers you can just use one of them with both of the cables until Brian sends you a new amp.
You were merely complicit in observing a death wish come to pass.
Brian's customer service has been stellar in the past. It all depends upon his ability to source his goods. He is a very smart, nice human.
Yes, the sub experiment went south a bit. I’m not ragging on Rythmik or Brian at all. These are nicely made subs, with limitations on the quality of some parts. Stuff happens and Brian was prompt to respond regarding my concern of a loud “thump”. And he responded within a couple of hours after I told him him the left sub died. If I were ticked off at Brian and Rythmik, I wouldn’t have offered to remove the amp, disconnect the wires, find a box for it, package it securely and just ship the amp back and not the whole sub. The boxing, packaging and my time would be on me. They’re a small company from what I know and I’m trying to save them a few dollars in shipping. Companies should have unhappy customers like me who try to resolve things amicably and save them money in the process.
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Nick
Is the amp that's in those subs?
https://gr-research.com/product/hx300/
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Nick
Is the amp that's in those subs?
https://gr-research.com/product/hx300/
Yes, Jack. That’s it. Why do you ask?
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Just a lot different amp than what's in my four.
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With how busy Rythmik is, I’m curious if they’ll try and fix it or just send a new one. Either way works for me….
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I doubt that they have anyone to fix them as their just Hypex circuit boards. Likely Brian will just send you a new one a decide what to do with the old one once he gets it back. Him fixing the old one and sending it back at some point is not an option I would accept.
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The HX310 PEQ mentioned is not the amp I had in my subs.
I had A370XLR3
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Well, my Rythmik L12 is off to Texas to be repaired. I did my best to disconnect that amp, but the clips are impossible to get off the sub and there’s hardly any room to maneuver in the cabinet. So the whole thing needs to go back.
Tweaking my back was a reminder why I don’t want to deal with difficult to lift/carry components. Brian at Rythmik has been on top of things and pleasant to deal with.
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I hear ya! A real beatch to carry this stuff around. I'm upstairs.This stuff as I explained to the wifey,
It's set and forget. :roll:
Advil is your friend.
My connections to the driver were pretty lose. Removed by my fingers.
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I hear ya! A real beatch to carry this stuff around. I'm upstairs.This stuff as I explained to the wifey,
It's set and forget. :roll:
Advil is your friend.
My connections to the driver were pretty lose. Removed by my fingers.
Oh yeah….set and forget…gotcha 😵💫 The back is feeling a bit better. My connections were gorilla 🦍 tightened
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Just for reference, the Rythmik Audio HX300 servo amp has been discontinued.
The HX310 is the replacement being built for production. No time frame has been posted.
For the 4x8in servo sub towers I took to CAF 2023 with the Magnepan MG10/QR's, it was a pair of original HX300-8OB servo amps I had on loan from Brian. Now run them with A370XLR3's with the dspNexus 2x8 with some EQ to replicate the HX300-8OB operation.
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Well, my Rythmik L12 is off to Texas to be repaired. I did my best to disconnect that amp, but the clips are impossible to get off the sub and there’s hardly any room to maneuver in the cabinet. So the whole thing needs to go back.
Tweaking my back was a reminder why I don’t want to deal with difficult to lift/carry components. Brian at Rythmik has been on top of things and pleasant to deal with.
The sub was delivered by UPS this afternoon and everything looks to be in excellent condition. Communication with Brian at Rythmik was very good and the repair turnaround was very quick. There was an extra day delay with UPS and I was sent an email regarding that. I did ask Brian what the issue was and 2 electrolytic caps had gone bad and were replaced.
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Nick, I'm afraid that kind of failure comes under the "Shit just happens, what the hell."
category. Hopefully no more problems. 👍
Scotty
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Nick, I'm afraid that kind of failure comes under the "Shit just happens, what the hell."
category. Hopefully no more problems. 👍
Scotty
Scotty,
It’s all good. Brian took care of it promptly and professionally 👍
Nick