Author Topic: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms  (Read 8701 times)

Offline JLM

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« on: December 10, 2009, 02:31:50 AM »
I have a mancave pretty much dedicated to audio that follows the Cardas recipe for proportion and speaker/chair setup.  It's pretty well insulated, nothing extreme, just a good example IMO of bang for the buck.  It was my compensation for other concessions when we built 5 years ago.  As we planned to finish off the basement anyway, the room audio related upgrades ended up being all but free.  And having a new house, the electrical system is in very good shape with our own underground service and transformer, all 20 amp circuits/12 gauge wiring, all new appliances, etc.

But the biggest advantage I've found to having the room is simply in having the room.  Regardless of the size, shape, setup, equipment, isolation afforded, etc. the greatest factor is simply having a room I can go listen in when I want to and to what I want.

All that aside, if I were trying to sell audio, I'd sure to heck concern myself with the room.  With CES coming up it amazes me that nearly all the vendors seem to blow into town the very last minute and scramble to put together their rooms.  Prototype equipment that was rushed in and often doesn't work (or intentional static displays).  Partnering with others and their equipment that they may have never put together before.  But the rooms!  Small, poorly proportioned, furniture in the way, rarely any treatments, no EQ, and of course too much equipment (in the way of the soundstage, acting as reflectors, and providing passive bass boxes).  And the average full time audio shop isn't any better.

Why do you suppose this keeps happening?  What are some of the worse examples you can recall?  It's like they're trying to make a really bad impression.  So why do they bother?  Any ideas?

Offline Carlman

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2009, 05:23:51 AM »
Do they even have rooms at CES?  I thought it was setup like a trade show with booths..
RMAF uses hotel rooms.. most of which seemed to be around 12'x14'.  

I think the rationale is that most people do not have something like you (or I) have so they show the gear in a less-than-ideal 'room' to let people get a flavor.  The whole thought seems to be that it doesn't matter what it sounds like in one place, it's going to sound different when you get it home.  Plus, there's a chance that the vendor got lucky, and made some magic in the slapped together setup... Will it transfer to your home setup? probably not but I never hear anyone complain about a 'false impression' when it goes that way... But I do hear 'well, in this room it's not going to sound as good as at your place' a lot...

I can understand where the vendor is coming from in a way.. why bother, it's going to sound so much different in a different system/setup/room so why spend a lot of time dialing it in to 1 type of sound.

I will contend though, that consumers like me think the vendor knows how their gear 'should' sound, and the system is presented how the vendor thinks the system should be put together.  It is a model, and your best effort to let me hear your house sound at its best.  I would think the component synergy and room acoustics would have all been accounted for.  Instead, I get to hear a bunch of gear propped up on crates and feel desperatation and embarassment from the vendors presenting it.  That's less fun than just socializing at the bar... so, if I go back to RMAF, that's what I'll do.

I believe CES is about seeing new things, not about audio performance.  I know there is audio there but the theme is "here's a bunch of stuff you could have"... and not like RMAF where it's "here's what our audio systems sound like".  From what I've seen and heard about CES is it's bombastic with vendors competing more for your attention than appealing to a particular taste.  I'm sure that can be looked through but I'll leave that to others to comment.

My experience at audio shops in NC has been pretty good overall.. they have some room treatments.. Tom in Cary, Audio Advice in Raleigh, and AVExcellence in Raleigh all treat their rooms and have good sizes.. And depending on when you're there, have a system setup properly without too much other gear in the room.  I've also listened to speakers in show rooms.. which gave me a taste of the speaker but that's it.

All of this is somewhat why I built a dedicated room.  At least I can accurately compare gear and make some concrete judgement calls about what changes are made in comparisons.  It didn't take me long to synergize my system with the dedicated room.  I enjoy comparing gear with friends way more than any show or shop... The only time I'd go is if it was the only way to hear something I specifically wanted and couldn't hear anywhere else.  And I think that's the main reason they bother, to find the people that are already interested in what they have to offer.

-C
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 05:25:33 AM by Carlman »
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline allenzachary

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 687
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2009, 03:54:23 PM »
Audio shops often have a pair of motivations..first, profit.  It costs an awful lot of money and time to prepare a room properly. 

Second-this reason was actively given in the upper-mid-fi store where I spent my formative audio years- if a store is over done, it presents an unrealistic experience for the buyer.  Most people don't go through even the slightest room preparation for their new hifi purchase.  the system goes where it goes, considering space, furniture and spousal acceptance factor as the main criteria.  Rarely, if ever, does sonic performance ever weigh into the decision.  Only those suffering from some kind of nervosa ever bothered to tweak rooms.  If a listening room in a store was truly properly prepared, the listening experience at home would never be able to compare. Typical customers would be unhappy that they could not reproduce the in-store experience. 

As for hotels, conventions and fests, there are also several factors that prevent properly prepared rooms.  Hotels are very imperfect listening environments and room treatment would be very expensive, time consuming and likely, completely ineffective.  To do a proper tweak, one must have access to the room for an extended period of time to get its exact measurements and acoustic properties.  Even assuming that the rooms were available several days in advance with the furniture removed, most manufacturers don't have the staff or budgets to send their engineers away for several days beyond the event itself.

Additionally, there are often issues with transport and setup at trade shows etc because of unions...(I say this as a liberal with family roots firmly entrenched in the early labor movement).  Union rules prevent anyone other than the appropriate union labor from carrying, transporting, connecting, adjusting, repairing or just about anything until the event has actually begun.  Depending on the venue, it may not be possible to set up equipment as optimally or expertly as is often expected or required.  Certainly, an audio engineer could stand over a union electrician for hours, but at $150 per hour, it just might not be worth it.  Especially when you have to pay union rates for the schleppers and the watchers and the gofers and the supervisors, who all must be there, and paid, anytime any of them is there.

So there are a lot of real reasons...

Really good stores will let nervosans (generic lower case "n" as opposed to capital "N" for the members here) take equipment home for trials in their own environments.  It's a hassle for everyone, but it is the best way to do it.   Fortunately, (or unfortunately) for high-end retailers, nervosans are a rare breed and thus may be tolerated .  If there were more of us, we wouldn't have to preview stuff in our homes as hifi stores would be designed more for us nervosans rather than the masses. 



Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2009, 04:57:25 PM »
When talking about the lack of ultimate sound quality at show.fests one thing that you must take into account is the purpose of the show. The purpose of these shows is not to make direct retail sales. As a matter of fact at all of the shows I have been to, with the exception of some small accessories and software, you could not even make a purchase if you wanted to. The best you got was a referral to one of that companies dealers in your area. The real goal of the show is to generate enough interest to make the listener want to investigate that equipment further In the case of a retail customer, to get them to seek out a dealer or in-home demo to see what the piece is really capable of, and in the case of a trade member to get them to request a demo piece to either review for publication or evaluation for possible shelf space in that store. The setup doesn't have to be great, just good enough to generate interest. While this made not be the best of all worlds for us a listener, it gets the job done from the point of view of the exhibitor. (besides which, no matter how good it sounded at the show, I as an audiophile would want to arrange a home demo before I made any type of significant purchase, so I'm not sure what would be gained by tweeking and perfecting the room.)

Secondly, as was mentioned earlier, is is difficult and time consuming to dial in a room. But there is one wild card that an exhibitor faces that makes doing that dam near impossible. From minute to minute the exhibitor has no idea how many people will be in the room. As many of us know from holding audio g2gs, loading up the room with people can dramatically change the sound and therefore any setup that the exhibitor may have done. No matter how you set up the room, the great probability is that for the vast majority of the time, that setup will be suboptimal because the number of people in the room is different than it was when you tweeked it out. Given this thought, unless you have the new breakthrough product of the show and your room will be SRO from opening to closing, there really may not be a way to optimize a room for the show (which goes back to one of the biggest advantages of having a mancave - you control everything that goes on in there, something that cannot be said for a show exhibit).

The same kind of thing applies to a dealer showroom. How many hours do each of us spend getting out setups just so. In a dealer environment this is very tough to do because equipment is constantly getting switched in and out. Not only does every speaker have its own optimal place in the room, but that optimal place will change depending on the position of everything else. So the best place to the speaker that's playing can be influenced on there you put the equipment that is not being auditioned. And I don't think there are many, if any dealers left that can afford the space or the manpower to set up each demo with only the exact equipment being listened to and everything else removed from the room and put somewhere else. Dealers, like every other audiophile must make the best of the situation given the practical and logistical constraints that they must work under. Unfortunately for the deal, his constraints tend to be more onerous and detrimental to that sound that what we encounter at home, but the principle is the same. We must work with what we have and try to make the best of it. I don't think there are too many dealers that wouldn't love to have better sounding rooms, but practical constraints limit just how far they can go.

I know of several high end dealers in NYC that spent over $1 million dollars building special sound rooms that would isolate listeners from normal city sounds like traffic and subway trains, but even then they have several systems set up in each room.. You just have to make the best of the cards you are dealt.

Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline Carlman

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2009, 05:03:23 PM »
Allen makes a lot of sense and I totally understand.  All true statements... And the part about the hotels is definitely true.. Las Vegas is VERY unionized... and therefore prohibitively expensive to make 'tweaks' to any setup.

But.. I had to have a but..  In my limited (by comparison) experience, I'm not aware of anyone ever having a shop so well-done that it reduced sales because customers couldn't reproduce the same thing at home. I've never heard of that 'problem'.

I dare any shop to properly treat a room and build a few systems that really go together to highlight in their most optimal configurations.

I'd call the shop "Audio Epiphany". :)
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2009, 05:10:36 PM »
A dealer showroom is a workplace. Gear is being put in and out all the time. I returned for another dose of my #1 epiphany a week later but the magic was gone - they had moved one of the speakers to enable a demo of the other system in the room on the other wall, and hadn't marked the floor carefully before moving it. A tragic shame.  :duh   They could have sold admission tickets for a listen and mode more money than selling the whole rig.

Dealers get into business because they love the hobby and feel that they have something to contribute, not just to hock wares. I would guess that many of them thought on entering the business that they would be able to tune their demo, impress the clients and help them achieve great sound in their homes.  Realities of life and business make that difficult, especially for small businesses busy with installs, repairs, and phone calls. The dealers that I know in my town are very good room tuners and are happy to come to the house to optimize gear they sell. One dealer offered to charge me $500 extra to have Dennis Had come to my house to place the speakers.  :rofl:

The trade show rooms vary from excellent to awful. There is very little time to setup all the gear before press walks in. When vendors share a room it can be hard to find synergy in a couple hours, especially if the gear is not sympatico. I was just reading a blog by Valin from RMAF09 about $100k+ Scaena line arrays being fed by dCS stack that sounded shitty because the speaker rep set the player to downconvert DSD to 176k PCM. Once the dCS rep tuned the electronics correctly everything came to life.

Acoustic treatment is hard to get right in a show, and the cement walls can be tough on the balance. But occasionally it comes together just right. BSP/ACI/GIK always had a well tuned room with synergetic products. The local B&W/Classe dealer's room always sounds good too, as does FidelisAV, the Harbeth importer.

Offline allenzachary

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 687
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2009, 06:57:13 PM »
I promise...there were specific conversations among staff and with customers about whether to tweak the rooms or not.  I remember on more than one occasion, objections being raised by customers about hifi sounding "too good' because we had "specially treated" the room and somehow skewed the experience in the store's favor. 

Our store had a 7 day money back return policy and we never wanted buyer's remorse to be amplified (no pun intended, really) by a customer's room sounding worse than our demo room.  Whether or not our fear was legitimate, we genuinely felt that way.

We did install the most modest of room tweaks, installing triangular corner traps in the room (which we affectionately called the "digital pillows") and they helped reduce obvious clatter, but it was a conscious decision to only offer minimal treatment.  Really.


Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2009, 08:40:58 PM »
I could be wrong, but I would think that the clientele at a mid-fi (even upper mid-fi) store would not be that aware of or be willing put the time and effort into tweeking room acoustics at home (I dare say that few of them had a listening room per se. However this would be a whole different story in a true high end store. So I can understand a mid-fi store not treating their rooms, not so much because the don't care, but more because I would more closely match the type of environment their customers would be using the equipment in. A acoustically treated room in a mid-fi store would tend to give customers an unrealistic set of expectations with respect to how the equipment would sound at home. And since most mid-fi stores and customers do not do in home demos having an untreated room most closely mimics the customers own room.I would expect more from a high end shop both in terms of the store's efforts and attitudes and the customers audio sophistication.   
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2009, 05:25:32 AM »
I was thinking of only high end stores and mfgs, because I assume midfi hobbyists are buying online, not in stores anymore. But I can see your logic in not offering treatment and not fine tuning a demo Allen.  It is funny the conversation you describe, but business is business it's all about sales. Some high end mfgs try to make their speakers sound good in various positions, not just in the exact perfect spot. It is the reality of having a stereo at home that the perfect spot is often unavailable.

Offline Carlman

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2009, 05:46:03 AM »
I know manufacturers have worked hard to perfect the 5-minute demo for monitors.  The business equation is an easy choice (small speaker, cheap to build, high WAF). In a 5-10 minute demo the customer says, "wow, all that sound from such a small box, I'll take 'em!"  But getting them home reveals that 15+ minutes starts getting a bit fatiguing and a little while later maybe even unbearable to listen to.  I would think a lot of customers won't ever get to 15 minutes so it doesn't matter.. they bought the speakers for other reasons.. a sale is a sale.  Out of all the sales, maybe 1-10% would actually feel duped by the shop.  So, if that's the return rate now, I guess there's no reason to change a good thing.  Right now I'm thinking it's a good time to be creative and do new things in business.. hence my reaction/thoughts/etc.

I expect the home-based hifi dealerships to continue to grow.  In fact, I would think the real growth will be in the online manufacturers that sell direct at msrp and then have a dealer network of home-based dealers.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline allenzachary

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 687
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2009, 06:02:03 AM »
Interestingly, at the time, we WERE the high end store in our area.  I call our store upper-mid fi because, in retrospect, thats what the lines we carried were. We sold some very credible high-end products, Audible Illusions, EAD, B&K, Dynaco's Second Coming, Kinergetics, B&K, Sumo, Mirage, Snell (original incarnation), B&W (even keeping a pair of B&W 801's on display), but the meat of our business was Denon, Carver, Paradigm and the $1500-$2000 stereo system.  

I deduct "high-end" points, too, because a large part of our business was dedicated to car audio.  We did very credible, well installed systems in the worst possible audio environments.  Indeed, we purveyed very good sounding "high-end" car systems (although I always considered that an oxymoron).

And, Carl, I definitely agree that the business model has changed.  In the late 80's, marketing was vastly different than it is today.  There were no home-based retailers...or, if there were, nobody new about them.  In addition, a home based business would have gotten little support from rep firms and mfg's, so their knowledge base and ability to display or demo would have been very limited. 

The home-based high-end store is now I believe, is the trend.  It is much easier to find home-based dealers now than it was in the '80's and information is much more readily available.  Also, the home-based retailer has the advantage in that they can much more closely match their demo rooms to a customer's scenario, whether they have a dedicated-audio-man-cave in the basement or a living room used by wife kids and pets.

Offline JLM

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2009, 03:34:00 AM »
I was trying to focus on why shops/fests don't have at least "decent" rooms.  Start with something that has doors and that isn't a "perfect" cube with a glass store front wall.  We had one place in town that displayed Klipschorns in a 12 ft x 14 ft room that was so overstuffed with equipment/furniture that you didn't see them at first.   :shock:

The best retail example I've seen was a guy simply selling out of his basement by evening/weekend appointment only (this was his 2nd job).  He had very low overhead and virtually no operating or up front costs, so he could give lots of time in a residential setting.  Didn't have the room overloaded.  Asked ahead of time what you wanted to listen to, so he had the room setup for you before hand.  In his first year he cleared $150k (in the late 80's).  Then he blew it by expanding into the traditional audio shop (and then HT) bricks and mortar retailing model.   :roll:  Now the only audio he sells is "eye candy" low-fi and his focus is custom installation HT systems.   :duh

I do appreciate the retail pressures for the big city, 5 minute audition, that uses every square foot for display in a traditional retailing mode (and why so many have gone under).  My guess is that with all those pressures and now lack of experience, vendors may no longer know how to display.  But I really can't explain it.  Like I started this thread out telling, my mancave is reasonably good and it cost nothing extra.  Is having an 8 ft x 13 ft x 21 ft room with a door (basically my room) so hard?  I agree that I've not seen anything better than simulated residential rooms and trying to do more is pointless for the reasons already stated, but so few have pulled even that off.


If I were trying to impress folks, like at RAMF, why wouldn't I have scouted out the room weeks/months ahead of time; arrive an extra day early; have rented a bigger truck to have more options, backups, room treatments available; or listen to all the proposed pieces together before the show?  RAMF should be your best chance to show off, so why not put your best foot forward?  Instead for some shows like that come off like a half baked after thought slapped together at the last minute with more excuses than results.  For all the world it appears that almost every vendor does audio as an occasional hobby.  Is that the big secret of audio? 

I recall one Friday-Sunday show about 6 years ago where the vendor, who only does internet sales didn't open his L-shaped room on Saturday until after noon.  His trophy wife occupied the best leg of the room.  His biggest speakers were crammed into the opposite leg of the room with the bed still in place which made for a horrible muddy mess of sound.  A 2nd system was pushed against the remaining long wall with a $300 receiver (that sounded better than the 1st system).  That presentation, which he admitted was quite poor, turned me off from him and his stuff.  The world has too many options to waste time with the likes of that.  Why open your doors if that is the best you can do?

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2009, 06:33:12 AM »
All of the dealers in my town have good demos, some are excellent, especially if you give them a days notice. They will make it sing if they know you are coming to audition a piece.

As for RMAF, I have helped companies setup (Lotus Group) and break down (FidelisAV) after the show. It is a huge job to unpack and clean up but at least you're eager for the show. Most of the gear is shipped in by hired shipper and left in a pile in your room before you arrive. The room is a profit center for the hotel, so it is not available a day ahead. To double or triple the size of the shipment to accomodate room treatments is not practical. I think Bryan drives a truck there to carry all the GIK products to treat multiple rooms. Once there, you have a few hours to set it all up before press and early birds start coming in. All of the rooms are identical except for suites and ballrooms which cost a lot more. Often the small mistakes and settings aren't all cleared up until the last day after the peak. Sunday is always the best sounding day. But then the companies start breaking down early so they can catch flights out.  I agree, many of the rooms could sound better, and many of the exhibitors are just hobbyists having fun and making a tax shelter, but it's the atmosphere that most people come for, plus 5-10 great sounding rooms.


Black Sand Cable

  • Guest
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2009, 08:41:03 AM »
True story.......

A few weeks back I had a really nice guy over to hear some speakers. We ended up using my HT room which was custom built and is heavily treated. I played him some Epos, PSB, Gemme's and a few others and after about an hour of moving speakers in and out, he looks at me and says " can we listen to speaker X in another room?" I asked him why and he said he would never be able to reproduce my room and thus wanted to hear the speakers in a room that was untreated. In his words "a regular room".

I moved the speakers he liked into my living room (which is an acoustic nightmare) and hooked them up to a Nova and nothing else. He ended up buying a set of the new PSB Image towers from me but his comments have stuck in my head since he was here. The PSB's he ended up getting sounded like a completely different speaker when we pulled them out of my HT room. They lost focus, got very boomy but at the end of the day, when we removed all the tweaks, he was able to make a buying decision as he now had a better idea as to what they were going to be like when he got them home.

In my HT room I can make cheap speakers sound decent but when you pull them from that room, they take on a new life. In this case it actually helped the guy make a decision.

Moral of the story, in this instance, a nice room actually worked against me! I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it but it happened.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Wondering why so few shops/fests have "decent" rooms
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2009, 09:35:37 AM »
That is funny!

I'm having a tough time motivating to install some of the 800sf of treatment I bought for the living room. As much as I would like it to sound "better" or "perfect" I like the feel of the space with natural reflections. My brain has adapted to it so I can listen through it. I will still do some to reduce noise from outsdie the listening area, but not sure how much I will do inside yet. Probably as I do some i will like it and want more until I am inside a pillow.