DAC's in general.....

[bacobits]

I do think the Benchmark has been getting a bad rep from individuals lately.
Because of the sampling rate and there is an influx of Chinese made NOS DAC's on the market.
The Benchmark is sensitive to cableing.
Of course I don't have here 5 or 6 DAC's to do a direct comparison.
I could not believe the difference a Signal "Digital" PC made along with changing the interconnects to my HGA Silver.
This is all pretty reasonable cost cable, you may have something better since you are BSC.
Bypass the Pre volume control and set the internal jumpers to 0. Run the back switch at calibrate and use the
balanced outputs. I use the coax in from a Denon 1650AR with a Blue Jeans Belden 1695A Canare termination. Again, nothing fancy or expensive. It should have 200 hrs breakin time? Mine is from latter 2006 so it is not current or the USB model. I'm not interested in running it computer based.

Extremely nice. Works for me (at least for now HA!)

I have  heard that changing the fuses to a higher amperage 3-5 amp "fast" also improves things.
I have not done this.

Den

[Carlman]

John - Of the DAC's you're comparing, are any of them non-oversampling?

Den - Do you know of any good non-oversamplers that have come out lately?  I haven't heard anything that overall beats what I have (Scott Nixon USB Tube DAC)... but I'm always interested in DAC personalities.

To me, comparing non-os dacs against overamplers is apples and oranges.  Oversampling vs. non-oversampling is a different kind of comparison than DAC vs. DAC.  People seem to polarize on which type they prefer.. and that makes sense to me because non-oversamplers have their own kind of sound, with varying degrees of compromises... but people often think they sound boring. (especially after listening to a zingy oversampler)  They take time to enjoy.
Oversamplers have so much (design) flexibility that they sometimes reproduce music/sounds that are beyond reality, and you get that 'wow' factor.  You can enjoy them immediately.

At the end of the day, you like what you like (reality or excitement.. or a little of both).  Enjoy.

-C

[richidoo]

I am eager to hear the new Bryston sources, BDA-1 (dac) and BCD-1 (cdp). Technically the specs are about as good as can be done. Jitter is unmeasurable and noise is close to theoretical minimum. Word is they sound nice too. They are upsampling and oversampling, but the algorithms are very sophisticated on Crystal CS-4398 dac chip.

Rich

[Carlman]

You are truly open-minded to consider the Bryston KAC.    Who knows, it might be the best thing ever... my guess is that your Altmann will hand it it's Crystal-chip ass. ha.

[Black Sand Cable]

To be honest, I haven’t spent a lot of time reading the specs on each unit. I’m trying to keep it very simple and just plug the dam things in and listen. I couldn’t tell you if one of them is non oversampling or not as like I said, I really haven’t looked at the specs. At the end of this I’m simply trying to find a decently priced DAC that works as advertised that I can pair up with either the Sonos or Duet and offer it as a complete package system. More and more people are asking for this so I’m trying to narrow it down.

I can say that they are all close to each other. Some however do things better then others. Out of all of them I can say that there is only one that I personally don’t care for and that would be the Lavry. To my ears (and keep in mind we are talking my ears, my tastes etc) it doesn’t do it for me. I just don’t like what it does. It reminds me of a buffer versus a DAC. Hard to explain but for those of you who have ever heard a Burson Buffer in a system that didn’t need it, you will get what I’m talking about. Everything comes across as over driven when the volume gets up there. My clear cut favorite is the AA as it does just about everything right but at $7700.00 it wont be the one I end up carrying. It’s way overpriced and given the Opera DAC16 gets very close to the end performance of the AA and sells for around $1K, I would take it over the AA. The Benchmark is a great unit and I now get what all the hype is about but it’s no better or no worse then the PS Audio DACIII. If anything I would be hard pressed to pick out which was which in a blind “taste test”. The Behringer Ultracurve Pro 2496 is also a nice unit but there is simply way too much going on there and in all honesty is not what I’m looking for. When you factor in what I’m after, I need a plug and play system and the 2496 has way too much going on for the average user. It works as advertised but does far more then the average user is ever going to want it to do.

Right now it’s down to the DAC16 and the PS Audio DLIII as both work as advertised, work well and fall into a price point that I personally think is where a DAC should be at. The DAC16 in my mind is currently leading the race as it’s by far and away the most musical of the two but again they are close.

I have also arranged to get my hands on the Bryston BDA-1. At $2K it’s out of the range I wanted to be at but if it lives up to the hype, I may look at it but who knows. I like Bryston as a company but in all honesty have never really liked most of the stuff I have owned from them and I have owned a fair number of their amps. Given they are a great Canadian company who are basically in my backyard, I would love to report back and say the BDA-1 is the greatest thing since sliced bread but we will see.

Again, keep in mind that everything I’m saying is based on my own ears and my tastes.

In case anybody is curious, I stayed clear of a few DAC’s like the Altmann and others along those lines as I need a complete retail friendly DAC. A DAC served up on a chunk of wood, just isn’t going to cut it with most of the folks I deal with.

Also for reference, several weeks ago I borrowed a set of ProAc speakers to do most of my listening as I find the ProAc’s to be brutally accurate and thus very revealing of source components. I would personally never own them as I like my sound on the warm side but when it comes to picking out subtle differences, I have yet to hear anything better.

Once I figure out which way I’m going I will let you guys know once and for all.

[richidoo]

You are truly open-minded to consider the Bryston KAC.    Who knows, it might be the best thing ever... my guess is that your Altmann will hand it it's Crystal-chip ass. ha.

KAC = ?
Killer Analog Converter? or is it Killed Analog Converter?  Krappy, Krispy, Korny? Kacophonic? Yeah, I like kacophonic. I wish the CDP had digital in.

Hey John, you know ARC has a DAC now too. Don't forget that one, you could carry the whole AR line. 

[bacobits]

Nothing absolutely new that I have heard of.
Certain people on AC were very insistent on moded ART D i/o's
to the point of telling me I was nuts to pay anymore at the time I was looking at the Benchmark.

I was reading about the Paradesa NOS DAC, also the Zhaolu D3.
I never had the chance to hear a NOS DAC to compare.
Last one box players I have had are a Sony SACD XA7000Es
and the EE Mini Max CD. Both very good. I got out of SACD.
The only reason I went back to a DAC was I could not find a one box player that did not have
some sort of transport problem develop or reputation of problems. So I use an old Denon 1650AR as a transport (Sanyo) no Phillips BS.

BTW, the Altman is a bit much. I'm too anal about looks I guess.
There has got to be a way of mounting that spruce in a case of some sort.
Sheeshe! $1300 + too.

Den

[Carlman]

Den, I'm with you about the Altmann... My first reaction was 'are you kidding me?' He's making a killing; and more power to him.  You get a project board, you supply your own battery and charging system for that battery.. and yet he's getting orders for them.... oh, and they do indeed sound really good... one of the best DAC's I've ever heard. 

I've had the EE CD player also.. which I thought was pretty good but I knew wouldn't be a longterm fixture.  When I had it, I was learning that I just don't like the sound of oversampling...  So, my opinion of oversamplers is moot... unless they don't have the edge that I hear... and I usually won't notice it at first..

In any case, many of the AC darlings are and/or were either 'pretty good' to 'dissapointing' to me... but rarely were they 'just right for me'.  I learned that what works for 1 or 2 people means just that.  Also, I learned that a faithful following could quickly ensue that closed peoples minds to other considerations.  I liked the enthusiasm at AC but I felt like if someone important said nipple clamps made your system sound better everyone would start wearing nipple clamps... and some would agree!    It's fun to watch the trends.. but you still gotta decide for yourself.  I do think the intent of helping others is strong in this hobby.. so, I take people's recommendations as that.

-C

[miklorsmith]

Yep, the Altmann is hairshirt no doubt.  If "heavy gear must be better" and "audio jewelery" are anywhere on your list there's no way it would be the choice.  I don't consider myself either but I still roll my eyes on the Altmann.  And, when I see a truly beautiful piece it does grab me to be sure, like the new Ayre CDPs, ooo la la.

But when the chips are down I do most of my serious listening in near dark, with my eyes closed, and the gear behind an opaque door.  At those times I wouldn't care if Charles sold a, um, wooden board, with, um a diy chip board on it . . . wait a minute.  If the sound is there, I'm golden. 

I did a lot of CDP and DAC swapping a few years back and got on a NOS kick, all battery powered.  Vinnie's Monica 2 was great, the Ack! 2.0 was better, and the Altmann destroys both of them along with almost everything else I've heard.  The only thing I've heard that I like better is the clock-linked Lessloss setup with 8x synchronous upsampling but using the very highly regarded Burr Brown PCM 1704U-K chip.  It manages to combine ease of listening with incredible timing and tone.  It frankly broke my preconception that I only would be happy with NOS DACs, as with everything it's all in the execution.

But, this is a $4k DAC.  That the Altmann is as good as it is for the asking price is very impressive.  Charles believes, as I have heard from others such as Ocellia, that the wooden chassis and getting away from metallic resonances (electrical, vibrational?) contributes to the organic, breathing sound he's able to achieve.  Or, this could just be the psychological tool of "filling in the blanks" to wrap your head around what your hearing.  Or maybe it's wrapping what you hear around your head.   

Yeah, try to avoid the flavor of the month club - it can be expensive and counterproductive.  I agree that reviewers are not to be trusted but some folks assume if some random shmoe loves something it must be killer, salt-of-the-earth right?  If three of them love it, it's Hall of Fame material for sure.  Problem?  These guys are subject to the same losses in translation as the reviewers they complain about.  It sucks but hearing it for yourself is really where it's at.

[richidoo]

When you hear the difference between a speaker made of pine and the same speaker made of MDF or baltic birch or even trex you see that there is something very special about pine. Is it, along with the drop of goo applied to the DAC chip just a gimmick? Probably. Of course the circuit is king. But there is more to the circuit than just the traces and chips. Altmann is not the only one to eschew the use of metallic chassis. But his overriding philosophy is to eliminate modes of distortion by chopping them off, not just painting them or refining a dogmatically accepted cure. If a power supply sucks in some small or large way, fuck it - gone! If a chassis gives any kind of problem with magnetics, vibration, heat, fuck it - gone! What's left serves the essential purpose. I is not intended to kiss you back except your ears. On the other hand, NOS DACs are notoriously soft because the designers don't give them the power they need to push current at high freq in a electrically springy wire. Altmann says we may not need a case, but yes we need 5Vpp with 100ma current to make this NOS thing work. So there are 2 stages of differential amplification, each with its own regulated power supply after the tiny 8 pin phillips DAC. As for appearance, I kinda like it, it is weird.
Rich

[miklorsmith]

Interesting wood talk, Rich.  When Zu went about remaking the Definitions, they chose maple ply instead of the previous mdf, entirely for sonic reasons.  It is one of the important changes on what looks like the same speaker that took it from very good to truly great.

[_Scotty_]

It's not primarily a resonance problem that is solved by the no enclosure solution. It is the close proximity of
of metal to the circuit board that is the problem. This can be solved by mounting the circuit board at least  1.5 inches away from any metal surface, the EM field that exists around the board is now propagating through air. My REV III preamp, phono preamp and power amp are built this way. If you build any projects you can verify this for yourself. Wood and plastic sound better than metal but unfortunately they offer no RF shielding which can be a large problem with a wide bandwidth circuit with gain.
Scotty

[richidoo]

Here's more on metal parts in audio circuits:
http://www.dnm.co.uk/materials.html

[lonewolfny42]

Carl....

I liked the enthusiasm at AC but I felt like if someone important said nipple clamps made your system sound better everyone would start wearing nipple clamps... and some would agree!

These work great.....



Really brings out the best in any system.....

Kidding aside.....got to hear Vinnie's (Red Wine Audio) new DAC a few days ago.....very nice.
It is NOS....smooth, but the musical details are all there.

                      Chris

[richidoo]

Having not yet heard any Red Wine gear, my favorite thing about Vinnie's company is the website is always current.

http://www.redwineaudio.com/Isabellina.html