AudioNervosa

Group Therapy => Sharing Experiences => Topic started by: richidoo on May 29, 2007, 03:23:14 PM

Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: richidoo on May 29, 2007, 03:23:14 PM
Mike Smith's Altmann Attraction DAC (http://www.mother-of-tone.com/attraction.htm) which has been touring the country to rave reviews (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/outside2/outside.html) will be featured and compared to other DACs and CD players on hand. All DACs welcome!

We are all very excited to hear this new technology and see what's all the hubub. Thanks to Mike for the gracious offer to extend the tour for the southern boys.

June 9, 5pm. Food served. BYOB&B (Battery and Beer ;) ). PM for directions.
Rich
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: stereofool on May 29, 2007, 06:18:41 PM
I'll be there  :D !
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: lonewolfny42 on May 30, 2007, 02:19:50 AM
Not to be missed !!! Its a good one....

(Crap.....now I really have to ship it...  :( )
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: richidoo on May 30, 2007, 05:49:40 AM
Sorry wolfy  :cry:

Your regret to let it goes says a lot!  Of course, you're always welcome to drop in...  :)
Rich
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: Carlman on May 30, 2007, 09:46:48 AM
I'll be there! :) Thanks for having this, Rich.
I'll bring the Scott Nixon USB Tube DAC and my laptop.
IF (note that's a big IF) Scott has another new DAC ready, I'll bring it with me as well.  Oh, and of course the Allttmmann... which is taking a brief pitstop between LW and me.. but I've been assured it will be here in time.

BTW, I hear Hantra won't be able to make it. :(  Sad because he's the one that intro'd me to one of the first SN DAC's about 4 or 5 years ago...  :shock: Scott's come a long way with his designs.

-C
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: richidoo on May 30, 2007, 11:26:13 AM
Stereofool is bringing his Perpetual Technologies  (http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=processors&brand=2)DAC, and AR Ref 1 (by request)  8)
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: miklorsmith on May 30, 2007, 01:07:54 PM
Very exciting!  Thanks for putting it together, Rich.  

Since this is the AN stop on the Tour, feel free to post any and all impressions of the DAC here, good and bad.  I want to paint as complete and honest a picture of it as possible - that was the whole point in the first place.

Mike
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: richidoo on June 01, 2007, 11:06:04 AM
Benchmark DAC1 is coming to the DAC-off!

Steve can you bring a short set of Grover balanced ICs (or whatever your fav is) for the DAC1 balanced output? Might be fun to compare to SE output.  Thanks!  :D
Rich
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: WEEZ on June 01, 2007, 01:38:37 PM
Rich,

Looking forward to hearing the results. Too bad there's nobody with an AVA Ultra dac to join the comparison..

WEEZ
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: richidoo on June 01, 2007, 04:58:05 PM
I know, I was thinking about that too. When Mike offered the Altmann, there wasn't enough time (or money) to order one :(  Have you heard the UltraDAC Don?
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: WEEZ on June 02, 2007, 06:50:09 AM
Yeah, but not in a comparison, or shootout, or dac-off....
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: WEEZ on June 02, 2007, 08:43:26 AM
Oh, and it was with the 12AT7 tubes, not the 6N1P's, fwiw..
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: hometheaterdoc on June 05, 2007, 06:19:09 AM
When exactly is this?  I've got a seriously full weekend, but I can likely make it for a little bit at least.......

Anyone want to hear the JPS stuff? ;)

I don't have any DACs to bring along... but I can bring the Oracle transport if you're looking for a good transport source in comparison to the computer based stuff....
Title: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: Carlman on June 05, 2007, 06:37:28 AM
I'd like to compare the JPS to the Grovers and possibly the Reality's.  Maybe we could use the best of the 3 to evaluate the DAC's.

-C
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: richidoo on June 09, 2007, 07:43:58 PM
Well, the house is all quiet after a fantastic evening of listening, chatting, having a fun time. Thanks to all who came over. The Altmann was a big hit, everyone enjoyed it. Thanks especially to Stereofool for bringing his AR Ref1 preamp, cables, assorted "just in case" accessories and a great collection of albums. One of Steve's CDs, Grusin, with lots of piano, vibes, tinkly percussion showed the DAC differences night and day. Hearing Steve's incredible preamp was one of the highlights for me. Thanks Steve! Shane brought the entire spread of Aluminatas over, and after an hour of my cables, we switched everything to alumalloy and were suitably impressed. A very nice feeling of smoothness, power, control, highs extension, you know... all those audiofool words. Shane also bought Oracle CD1000/CD1500 which we used as a transport for the DACs from the mid point onward. It worked great, looked great, made us all feel very fancy. Thanks Shane!

Roger brought a prototype DAC designed by Kevin Carter which sounded awesome. Carl brought the Altmann, and Scott Nixon USB Tube DAC which also held up well. Richard brought a DAC but I can't remember the name of it and didn;t get to listen to it, Richard liked the Altmann better too. Steve's BenchmarkDAC1 forgot to get in the car to come over ;). Oh Well!  Altogether we had about 10 guys. Finally got to meet Inscrutable (Tim). I hope everyone will post some thoughts about the Altmann Attraction DAC over in Mikes "Outside (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=163.0)" thread, or here on this thread, or over in the Digital Devices section. Thanks!!!!!

I will write my review of the DAC after I have a chance to listen a little more. Between cookin on the grill and pulling the red top battery out of the minivan I didn't get to have a good long listen...yet! I heard enough to determine that the Altmann was my fav of all the DACs we heard tonight. Thanks to you, Mike, for giving us a great excuse to g2g to listen to your excellent DAC. It's comin home reeeal soon!
Rich
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: stereofool on June 10, 2007, 03:19:40 AM
Rich,

Once again, thank you for your hospitality  ;D!

It was great to see everyone again...and meet some 'new' faces, as well.

The equipment amassed certainly covered many flavors, and most were very enjoyable.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: Inscrutable on June 10, 2007, 04:18:03 AM
Ditto everything Steve said.  Thanks for hosting Rich, and particularly to your wife for doing the yeoman's duty with the kids and putting up with us so late.  And it was really great to see the usuals again, and meet several new folks.  I concur with the sentiment to try to do this more often.  I would love to host, but for the next few months it will be a cranked boombox punctuated by saws and air nailers.  Of course, I can gladly furnish food, hammers, saws, beer, and first aid - usually in pretty much that order  ;)

I've posted some DAC impressions over in the 'Outside' thread, and have to run now but will return later to post other thoughts here.
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: Carlman on June 10, 2007, 07:35:50 AM
It's so nice to have events like this... Thank you so much to Rich and his very understanding family.  Rich made homemade grilled burgers, grilled chicken, salad, and it was all very yummy (and healthy)! MANY thanks for that.

It was nice to catch up with some old regulars... It felt like it'd been way too long since I've seen so many of you... I'm all for regular get-togethers.... and would be more than happy to create a forum area here dedicated to our local group (or any group that wants to get together). 

One of my favorite things about having a forum is meeting the folks and understanding their ear so you can better understand their reactions to gear and gauge your own.  Steve reminded me of how valuable that is when we were talking at this meet. (Thanks again, Stereofool.)

The Altmann is the 'real deal' and should be considered by anyone that's looking for the ultimate in 2-channel.  I got a sneak peak the night previous in my own system for about an hour and it was pretty stunning.  "Startlingly convincing" were in my notes.  This DAC exceeds my current room's capabilities.  However, I have a new room being built that will solve that.  I will be trying Scott's new DAC as soon as it comes out.  It's AC-powered and all in one box with a cover... and a little cheaper than the Altmann.  I have a pretty good impression of the Altmann so when I get Scott's new DAC, I'll compare the USB tube dac to it... and see if I get closer to Atlmann-Nirvana-level.

It was nice sharing our views amongst ourselves last night.  We're a nice mixed bag of folks with all sort of differing backgrounds and levels of experience in this hobby... I learned a few things (as always) and hope to keep doing so... Great time, thanks to everyone... I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did.

Thanks,
Carl

Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: miklorsmith on June 10, 2007, 08:45:46 AM
Sounds like a gas, thanks for doing it fellas!
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: richidoo on June 10, 2007, 11:47:33 AM
Don;t feel to bad for my wife Julie, she went out for dinner, ice cream cones, and a symphony concert at Koka Booth amphitheater playing the 4 Bs Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Berlioz. Bratty kids precluded staying for the Berlioz, but thye all had a blast while I was stuck at home running wires, cooking and owrking on the car. Oh, and a few other things...  :D

I agree with Steve about the need to listen to your creations in the presence of others. I can feel other peoples' impressions so their presence is a great way for me to judge my system, or compositions, or whatever.

Audiophiles that I infrequently gathered with at the beginning of my participation in the hobby were not as available mentally or physically to meet and share the love of the hobby. They don't read forums, so I'm not embarrassed to say it here. They have other priorities and audio is more casual to them than it is for me. So I am grateful now to know a handful of people who share the same interest and dedication to it (obsession?) as me. Last night with the JPS installed, a little pile of BSC PC and Grovers was sitting on the floor, and I remarked teasingly about the pile of wires and how no other crowd would understand that little pile cost 2kilobucks. The joke wasn't funny, partly because I am a terrible joke teller, but also because everyone understands and accepts that good wire costs a lot of money, we are in the same frame of mind, making sharing the hobby much more fun.

We also had a rank newbie named Jason at the G2G, he has a nice mid-fi setup at home and listens to a lot of music. He was especially fun because he was very passionate and vocal about his preferences which were for the zing, brightness, hyped highs, etc.  He hated the Altmann, thinking it was too dull and boring compared to the other DACs which were much more exciting to him. We engaged him in discussion to suggest he listen deeper into the sound and consider the advantages of the NOS approach and listen for the more subtle aspects. That was a lot of fun for me. He is very dedicated to the sport and will hopefully come to future meets.

If it means getting together more often, I don't mind hosting until the other audio dungeons come online, that just means less driving for me. Next year, I won't have to host at all! hehe
Rich
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: richidoo on June 10, 2007, 12:55:37 PM
Pics (http://parkwestlake.com/nopw/rich/hifi/g2g2/)
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: Carlman on June 10, 2007, 01:18:12 PM
Cool Pix, Rich...

I took a few on Steve's camera... Steve, if you want to email them, feel free... cmcmillan3 at yahoo.com... and I'll post them. 

I'd say post them in the gallery but we're in the midst of upgrading it and likely moving servers again... hopefully 3rd time's a charm.

Thanks,
Carl
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: stereofool on June 10, 2007, 03:35:42 PM
Pics are in the process of being on their way to you...as I type :D!
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: RichardS on June 11, 2007, 06:32:21 AM
I also had a fun time -- it's great meeting and listening with others who find pleasure listening to superbly reproduced recorded music. Audiophilia can be a lonely avocation at times, and there aren't many who appreciate our fanatical dedication to this pursuit (the cables Shane hooked up cost as much as a car).

I was surprsingly impressed with the Altman DAC. Very natural and easy on the ears, though a face and body (battery) only a mother could love. . The RAKK DAC was also very good, though not as relaxing. The Altman drew you in more. The RAKK made you stand up and take notice. The Nixon was good, but not in the same league. Same with the Oritek-modded Zhalou I brought. Was a bit flat and dull and compressed in comparison, though both are quite good for the money. I wish I could have brought my Audio Logic 24mxl, but I sold it the day before.

Rich's living room and wall treatments looked as nice as I've seen in a living room, even with big speakers pulled out from the wall, but he's got a challenge in such a large open space. Sounded really good, though, and all those tubes provided a nice (and warm) contrast to my personal SS system.

Would be interesting to know how much of the Altmans 'attraction' is in the battery power supply. I recently acquired a Red Wine modded Olive Musica that I use as a transport, and it's definitely a step up from the stock one. At Rich's, the Altman eclipsed the Rakk that had a $3500 power cord on it. While I certainly appreciate the improvements of expensive power cords (and signal cables) I think it's interesting to see a movement away from the grid completely.

Any way, thanks to Rich and all for a wonderful time. I had only planned to stay an hour or two, but ended up staying till the end....
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: Carlman on June 11, 2007, 06:48:36 AM
Thanks for your comments, Richard... and it made me think maybe we should've put some of the other stuff on a real power conditioner rather than a strip shared with everything else... could've helped the results a bit.... I should've brought my Haley if nothing else... oh well... It's always something. ;)

Steve sent me the photos... working on the upload now... Check the Gallery...

-Carl
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: hometheaterdoc on June 11, 2007, 07:47:20 AM
Many thanks to Rich for hosting another event.  It was great to see everyone again, as well as some new faces.  I've been so buried with things that it's great to be able to unwind and relax with friends listening to gear.  It's amazing how little time I get to actually do that... and here I thought having an audio/video business would allow me to do more listening/viewing ;)  silly me....

For the DAC-OFF, it wasn't really a competition for me.  It's ugly as sin, but the Altmann just flat out sounded like music to me.  It was more organic, didn't have any grunge and had a fleshed out body and weight to everything.  Piano sounding like piano in the room instead of a stereo playing back a CD with piano on it. 

I, too am very curious to see how much of that was the battery power versus the lack of power outlets Rich had so the digital gear was forced to share a power strip.  I must admit that I was chuckling to myself that I was plugging a $3500 JPS Aluminata power cord into a $3 power strip.  I think the digital front end would have definitely benefited from a Running Springs Haley or similar power conditioner.  Rich, you really need to get one of them from me ;) hehehehe

Rich's room looked amazing compared to the last meeting.  It also improved exponentially with the treatments in there.  The system as a whole still wasn't quite my cup of tea (it shouted a little too much at me), but it was sounding really good overall.

I didn't get the same earth shattering experience when we put the JPS Aluminata stuff into Rich's system as I did when I put it into the Butler/Usher combo at my place.  But it definitely relaxed things tremendously, brought a visceral grip to things that just wasn't there before (seriously great bass for a tube amp), and layered things a bit better.  I much prefered the decay of things and detail retrieval with the Aluminata.  I don't think Carl liked the way the pacing changed.... but that's just his preference versus mine ;) It was definitely several steps above where it had been before adding the cables (as it should be given what this stuff costs).  But where it was a no brainer in my system because of the incredible transformation it made to my demo system, it'd be hard to justify it in Rich's current setup.  Maybe some of the lower level JPS stuff, Rich ;)

Overall, great fun, and I can't wait to do it again..... provided I can find 5 free minutes to attend....



Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: miklorsmith on June 11, 2007, 08:26:37 AM
Thanks again, I think this was the most "productive" stop on the Tour, best for last, eh?

On batteries, this is my third NOS battery DAC.  I had a RWA Monica II that I loved.  It was trumped by the Ack! 2.0.  Both are destroyed by the Altmann.  I like batteries as a power source - I'm running batteries to my modded SB, RWA amps and a battery/AC supply to the Lessloss DAC rig I'm using now.  Oh yeah, the modded Teac amp in my 2nd system is batteries too.

Now if I can figure out how to run the Lamm pre off batteries . . .
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: bpape on June 11, 2007, 10:22:44 AM
How would you compare the Lessloss to the Altmann?

Bryan
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: miklorsmith on June 11, 2007, 10:39:44 AM
I haven't had the Altmann for 6 months.  And, part of the Lessloss strategy is having a transport that includes a clock-disabling function.  That isn't required, but is part of their "best" solution.  The unit does sound very good without the clock-master arrangement and I'll be assessing that as part of the full review to come.

These DACs are from different camps - the Lessloss is definitely of the detail-retrieval angle.  But, it does it in a most un-digital way.  It isn't the tone monster the Altmann is, but I could see possibly not wanting too much enhancement from the source, depending on system.  For a really tubey system, the Lessloss may be better.

When I get the Altmann back, I'll try to do some more comparisons.

I did some back here:

http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=60.0

The TacT has left and I'll be able to hear the Altmann in all its ugly glory!
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: bpape on June 11, 2007, 10:58:15 AM
Well, that's one more thing in favor of me listening to the Altmann.  Tone is THE thing for me, all else may be important but if the tone ain't right, I'm not happy.

Bryan
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: lonewolfny42 on June 11, 2007, 02:26:06 PM
Mike....
If FedEx is on schedule, the DAC's should arrive tomorrow....remember....I said "no rush"...listen as long as you like and compare everything. (and tell it like you hear it....good or bad). 8)

                                Chris
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: miklorsmith on June 11, 2007, 02:31:40 PM
Thanks and you betcha!   8)

I'll have the Altmann back this week too!  Wheeee!!!
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: lonewolfny42 on June 11, 2007, 02:39:05 PM
Thanks and you betcha!   8)

I'll have the Altmann back this week too!  Wheeee!!!
Yeah....You'll be "all dac'ed out" now....(http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/jester.gif)
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: lonewolfny42 on June 11, 2007, 02:48:20 PM
So....who's who ?

(http://www.audionervosa.com/gallery/5_11_06_07_5_52_49.jpg)

By the way....thanks for the photo's....(http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/ban-cha.gif)
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: WEEZ on June 11, 2007, 02:53:54 PM
Nobody's leaning on the speakers.... >:(
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: Inscrutable on June 11, 2007, 03:24:32 PM
Quote
Tone is THE thing for me, all else may be important but if the tone ain't right, I'm not happy.
You are going to be very happy
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: Inscrutable on June 11, 2007, 03:31:06 PM
Quote
So....who's who ?
OK, I'll take a run at ti, since everyone else is chicken cuz they probably can't remember   ???

L > R

Steve, Roger (testing the plant diffusion effect), Richard, Rich (host, monopolizing sweet spot  ;) ), Richard - apparently anyone not named Richard was not allowed on the couch - and me.

And if I screwed up anyone's name
1. I apologize, all those guys who start with 'R' look alike, and
2. As you will note, I have an excuse in my hand  ;)

Witness protection Shane out of frame ... Carl probably stealing a battery out of a neighbor's car.
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: richidoo on June 12, 2007, 05:56:15 AM
That's Roger, Rich and RichardS on the couch.

Thanks for your comments about my system, Shane. I agree with you about the shouties, as you can read from my posts a couple months ago when it was far worse. I think I noticed that the JPS cables reduced it a lot. Playing the loud symphonic stuff seemed effortless with the JPS in the system - do you guys agree?  But the whole front end and cables were different, so no telling what fixed it, everything helped, I guess. What did you guys think about the sound of the system, was is still a little shouty at the end with all the goodies installed? When I listened the next day with the anticables back in I felt that shouting come back in contrast to the previous nights sound. I would love to tame that. I will be building some diffusors and finding ways to get more bass absorbtion in there per Brian's persistant and patient advice. I put 10 6" and 4" thick panels in corners for the meet but not sure how long it will remain - no wise cracks from Julie, yet. But a little shoutiness still remains, so I'm beginning to think it is a function of the system's voice and I'm eagerly looking to fix it.

The pace improved so much with the Altmann over the SB analog outs that I didn't notice any futher improvement when the JPS cables went in, I was tapping my foot and air conducting a a little while listening. Last night playing vinyl with tips offered by WEEZ and Wayner I had the same feeling of great pace again. But pace is not as good on the SB analog.

I did try the Haley power conditioner at the last meet, it had a strongly negative effect on my tube amps, mildly negative effect on the Monads, but no negative effect on the Mac 402, Mac C220 pre or source devices. I'm pretty happy with my power quality from the 20A dedicated outlet, but I do need to install a few more dedicated outlets. Maybe for the next meet.
Thanks
Rich
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: Carlman on June 12, 2007, 07:00:34 AM
As to power, what you have is sufficient for your system... it's when you introduce 3-5 more pieces of gear that it can suffer a little... and why I think the Haley would've helped regulate and prevent 'cross pollenation' of the current a little better...

OK... now comes the painful part... Please don't take this as offensive... trying to be constructive in a voiceless/toneless medium:

Your speakers have a lively or energetic sound that could use a little taming.. and the tubby and slow JPS cables sound helped. ;)  I think the sound you are aiming for is 'clean and alive' which the Altmann delivers.  I think the Altmann amp may be the right answer if that's the case... Especially if it was an integrated.  The Snappers have a tubey harmonic distortion that leans just a tad to the grunge side, rather than the clean side to me.  They do finesse as well... and therefore are good all-around amps... But I think you're attracted to half the amp's personality....

There is a balancing act of amp-to-cable-to-speaker in tone and detail and edge... etc.  I would go with Grover Cables on less transparent systems... and Reality's on more 'lively' sounding ones.  Right now I do a mix of Grover from tube DAC to preamp and Reality from preamp to amp. 

The Squeezebox is a very nice little device to me, especially unmodified... but even modified I wouldn't use it for my hifi primary listening... But, that's for other reasons as well... When you have 2,000 albums, a single-line display isn't fun to me.  Getting bitperfect data out of a PC is easy for me via USB or spdif but that's me.  I prefer to attenuate analog rather than digital signals also for reasons you've recently heard... bits just get tossed... and you CAN hear it, big time in my opinion.  The TacT is the only device I've heard that did a really good job attenuating digital... that was like magic.

If it were me, and I were you... the AR is the right sound for what I thought you'd like in a preamp.  Every AR I've heard sounded fairly similar to Steve's... but with varying degrees of resolution/transparency.  I know more about active pre's than passive's.. and I know you're eyeing the passive route... and I'd encourage you to go for it... because then I'll get to hear what a good passive can do. ;)

I've gone astray a bit now... let's see... what was my point?  Oh, you're on a journey, and quest for the sound you want... what you think you want today will change in a year.  What was good last year isn't good enough this year.  It's like an 'audiophile paradox'... haha... I keep this in mind so I'm OK with making major changes.  One day I'll fall out of love with Piega's... It seems like blasphemy just to type that but who knows.... I don't know how many times I thought I was done.  OK, I'm rambling again.

Finding the balance to get to your goal without breaking the bank is one of the hardest things I've ever done... But it was fun and rewarding in the end.  I've found my happy-place with what I have... So much so that we're building a house around the core concept.  So, it can also be motivating... ;)

Thanks and hope this was somewhat helpful.

-C
Title: Re: DAC-off at richidoos
Post by: richidoo on June 12, 2007, 02:34:59 PM
OK... now comes the painful part... Please don't take this as offensive... trying to be constructive in a voiceless/toneless medium:

I welcome your advice, thanks for offering. This is too expensive to figure out by trial and error. But just wait til I come over to your house next time ;)

I agree with much of your observations. I prefer 6550 ARC/VTL sound, but those models that can handle my speakers are dear. Snappers are a superb design in every way, except the voicing preference of the manufacturer's president. They are built around EL34 and cannot swap to other types. Like the speakers, they are great for rock. I like classical and jazz that is ballsy like rock, so exists a dysfunctional relationship until something better comes along...  :lol: They are mostly serving as replacement for the little Cary, which was desperately needed, but I am not devoted to them, and why I am considering the Altmann amp too. With speakers fixed and room somewhat tamed, I can get back to the fine tuning I stopped 6 months ago. I can hear the faults, but don't know what parts are causing it, or what products I can afford that will fix the problems. That's where my more experienced audio friends come in! 
Rich