AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Tubes => Topic started by: Bigfish8 on October 26, 2007, 04:59:40 PM
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Guys:
I know that many of you have done some tube rolling in preamps. I am wondering what you have found to be your favorite 12AU7 Tubes?
Thanks,
Ken
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My favorite 12AU7 is my pair of circa 1962 Amperex Holland ECC186/7316 PQ's.They are expensive but they are really nice tubes :drool:. thanks....WCW III
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In my preamp, I use 1960 vintage RCA Blackplates. I find them to be the right balance between warmth and detail - not too much of either but enough of both.
Bryan
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Well guys, I have been waiting 3 weeks for Vintage Tubes to send me a pair of Mullards. I am getting tired of waiting so I will probably cancel the order tomorrow and order something from the Tube Depot. Changing from the Straley SCs to the HT Pro 9s made a big difference in the soundstage and detail from my system. I am looking forward to trying some tubes other than the JJ Teslers than were supplied in the Candela.
Thanks Again,
Ken
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Hey Ken,Audiojerry who used to post over at AC refered me to a tube dealer named Bruce Wenger from northern Va.Bruce has some very fine tubes available. www.bws-tube.com
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i dont like the euro sound in my candela -
old american tubes sound much better to me-cbs/hytron 5814wa is a real nice one as are the old tubes made for organs -
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I'm with Bryan, I like the detail of RCA clear tops. But they still add some tube glory, but just a touch.
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i dont like the euro sound in my candela -
old american tubes sound much better to me-cbs/hytron 5814wa is a real nice one as are the old tubes made for organs -
I have tried the JJ 12AU7's,CV4003 Mullards,CBS Hytron 5814's and the Amperex 7316's.The CBS 5814 wa's are my second favorite 12AU7 tube. :)
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here are some 12au7's that sound great in my belles preamp. cbs/hytron 5814wa, rca 5814 command series, rca 5814 blackplates, raytheon 12au7 blackplates, brimar 13d5
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I use an Audio Mirror PP1 preamp and have tried a bunch of 12AU7 tubes in the past year.
My favorites are:
Amperex 7316
CBS Hytron 5814wa
The Amperex are quite balanced, smooth, and extremely clear.
The CBS Hytrons have nice punch, clarity, and are a bit more rich sounding.
Both great tubes IMO.
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For me its Amperex with orange globe label and RCA Cleartops.
rollo
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Guys:
Thanks for all of the tube recommendations. If I am going to tube roll I guess I should try a couple of different models versus the JJ Teslers.
Thanks Again,
Ken
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I just snagged a pair of NOS Brimar's and they sound fantastic.
I had not used these before, so I am very pleasantly surprised.
Very clear, clean, and well balanced.
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I have quite a few 12AU7 types which also include the 5814A variation. The better Euro stuff IMHO was the Telefunken and Mullard types (marked as ECC82)... both excellent but most seem to prefer the smooth plate versions of the Telefunken. Many of the later Amperex 12AU7 and 12AX7 has really smallish plates in larger diameter glass... never really cared for them. The older Bugle Boys were really nice.
In the US, you have many to choose from, Sylvania (later ECG-philips), RCA, GE, Tung-Sol... Heinz Kaufman and others. I have sourced numerous NOS ECG-philips JAN 5814A tubes and they are excellent. I also have many RCA black plate 5814A tubes and some GEs as well, but I prefer the RCA over the GE, and as already noted, RCA cleartops (named as their getter is attached to one plate on the side). RCA also had the Command series which was a more rugged and better spec tube intended for broadcast use. GE had their 5-star series which was the same. The broadcast series usually had triple mica spacers... and better microphonic specs.
In general, I tend to prefer the sound of Telefunkens in preamps, second to Mullard. They do very well in a properly designed unit and low-level signals. For power amp usage (my 45 and 2A3 SET designs use a 5814A) I prefer either the RCA Black Plate or JAN ECG-philips. Both are very open and neutral... the Mullards sounded a bit muted actually.
Regards, KM
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I have played around extensively with the 12AU7 family. My favorites:
Mullard 10M Gold Pin ECC82 62'-63' Does not sound like any Mullard I have heard, lots of low level detail,big soundstage and sweet midrange w/extended highs.
Early 50's Raytheon BlackPlate Sq Getter,Triple Mica 5814 Red Lettering Rich sound and very smooth.
Mid to late 50's Valvo/Hamburg ECC82 Huge soundstage and great balance.
I found that I tend to like early 50' and 60's tubes espcially with square getter.
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right now im a fan of the windmill getter raytheon 12au7-seems to most everything right in my candela
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bought a pair of mullards of the bay last night-klaus seems to like them in the candela so i figured i would give them a try for 50 bucks a pair for nos ones
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bought a pair of mullards of the bay last night-klaus seems to like them in the candela so i figured i would give them a try for 50 bucks a pair for nos ones
The Mullards I purchased from Andy of Vintage Tube Services are the best tubes I have tried in Candela. I have tried the stock JJ Teslers, Amperex Bugle Boys (second place to the Mullards) and Telefunkens. The Teles are sterile as all get out and I was looking for warmth.
You mention that Klaus likes the Mullards and I read on his forums that Grover also prefers Mullards.
Good Luck with Them,
Ken
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I wanted to revive this topic as I have rolled a couple of different tubes in my Candela since the last post. The Mullards are now in the safe along with the orginally supplied JJ's, Telefunkens and the Amperex Bugle Boys. I am currently running a pair of NOS RCA Cleartops I received a couple of weeks ago that replaced the pair of beloved Bugle Boys. I don't know why I resisted purchasing the Cleartops for so long as I find them to be a very, very nice sounding tube.
Do any of you guys have any recent 12AU7 tube rolling experiences with a tube I should consider?
Ken
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You can try the predecessor of the Clear Top which is the Black Plates (40's thru early 60's vintage). I find these a perfect balance of guts, warmth, and detail without being sloppy in my preamp.
Bryan
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right now i have some 50's conn organ tubes in my candella-
but in still partial to the cbs/hytrons
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I put in the stock Eastern Electric branded 12AU7s yesterday. Why didn't I do that sooner??? :duh It is my fav so far for my Minimax - not surprising that the talented designer Alex Jeung would voice the preamp for the tube he ships... Same with Manley Snappers. I have tried everything in it, still prefer the stock tubes.
They are not as warm and have better dynamics and tonal accuracy than some of the other tubes I have been trying, some of which are NOT cheap at all. I'm sure there are some tradeoffs, but for me it is a nice balance of what I'm looking for. There are some nice tubes coming out of China now.
Maybe Bill can sell EE tubes separately?
-Rich
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The Chinese 12au7's have always done the jump factor really well. They sound very smooth and neutral, if they have one little weakness it might be a just a tad grainy on top.They are not a lush tube by any means but I will take that tube over a Telefunken 12au7 any time of the day.They are a tad warmer then the Tele's.With either of these tubes I recommend not using silver IC's. To much of a good thing in clarity and neutrality.
BillC, did you pick up the Brimar 13D5 or just Brimar 12au7? The reason I ask is I really like what the 13D5's do as the drivers in our monoblocks. The extended highs just sparkle in that application compared to the stock Chinese 12AU7's. The upper midrange in the 13D5's just has that smoothness and air about it. My JBL 2404 tweets just shine and shimmer.
Rich, have you tried the Brimars using your new birthday presents :drool:That tweeter should love what the Brimars bring to the table. Also Alex Yeung, you know what they say,just spell my name right :rofl: Alex will appreciate it.
Surprisingly, I like the bottom end of the GE 5814, deep but not punchy,think old tube sound if looking for that flavor.
Did Amperex ever make a bad tube? Some lust after that foil getter but I have one that was NOS and even used it maybe 50 hours and have lent it out and put it back in my system and the highs on that still are a bit to etched for my liking, all others by Amperex have always pleased. The funny thing about this tube was I know I paid about $130 for it :duh
Carusoracer, The Mullard 10M goldpin is the cats meow, probably the finest if not the king of the 12au7 family.
Those Amperex 7316's are ok if halo gettered, the D or square shaped getter betters it in just about every way, at least in my system.
Please take all suggestions with a grain of salt, as systems, synergies, tone looking to achieve, and personal tastes are just a few of the variables.With that said I always liked the Raytheon triple mica blackplate 5814A also their 1950's vintage blackplate 12au7's.Wonderful portrayal of instruments, notes that hang in the air, soundstage with pinpoint placement of musicians.
If you ever run into the Siemens silverplate 12au7 that would be a ticket for cleaning up any muddiness
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Bill:
Thank you for that excellent summary of your experience with the 12AU7 Tubes. It appears that I still have many more to trial and I need to quit making system changes to enable me to finalize on the best tube for my tastes. :)
Ken
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Yes, thanks Bill.. I put your voice to those descriptions and it was really nice to 'hear' you describe the sounds... so nice... :)
Thanks again.
-Carl
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Awesome Bill. I think of Bill as the Tube Fairy (meant in the best sense.)
I did try the Brimars first and thought they were a little too round for me, but incredibly smooth, lots of good attributes too. You're right the stockers treble is not as silken smooth, but still very good. Freq range is great and detail is good, but the magic harmonic stuff is really what I like about it. There is something about the combo with EL156 along with stockers in the minimax that is intoxicating. I can feel the pleasure with sustained chords. There is a lot of 2nd/3rd harmonic, very sexy. Guys, this EE M156 amp is dynomatic. More on that soon. But as with all EE products the 12au7s make a big difference, so you can have some say in the sound.
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does anyone find the rca cleartops to be a little thin sounding?
at least i think so in my belles 21a preamp.
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does anyone find the rca cleartops to be a little thin sounding?
at least i think so in my belles 21a preamp.
I have had a pair of RCA Cleartops in my Odyssey Candela Preamp for approximately 2 weeks. They replaced a pair of Amperex Bugle Boys. I would describe the Clear Tops as having a clear, detailed sound but not sterile sounding like Telefunkens. They are certainly not warm sounding like Mullards and I believe they have a more defined top end than the Bugle Boys. I don't find the Clear Tops to be thin sounding and honestly this is the first post I have ever read that describes their sound as thin.
What have you rolled in the Belles 21a that you prefer to the ClearTops? I can't say that the Cleartops are my favorites as I really liked the Bugle Boys but they are growing on me.
Ken
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You could compare 2 pairs of RCA cleartops and have 2 different sounds... That's been my experience. The older the better on the RCA's... as long as they actually work.
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When I switched from Legacy speakers with big bottom, to Usher with very accurate bottom, I found that my pair of clear tops became too light in the bottom. But they are excellent 100Hz and up! I used the ones from tube depot, probably not very old versions.
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i also have usher speakers, the 6381's. the tubes that i find that i like in the belles are the: cbs/hytron 5814wa, rca command 5814a triple mica blackplates, rca 5814 triple mica blackplates, raytheon 12au7 triple mica blackplates, brimar 13d5. i'll go back and put the cleartops in, maybe it's that they are so different in sound from the other tubes that i like. i'm also trying to get a pair of amperex 7316 (at a reasonable price) to try out.
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Well, being a tube newbie, I recently purchased some tubes for tube rolling in my Yaqin MS-12B preamp. I replaced the stock standard Chinese tubes with a pair of electro-harmonix 12au7's ... they're not burnt in yet, but so far, I'm preferring the sound of the Chinese tubes to be honest. I'm finding the EH's are a bit too lush and smooth and the top end is a wee bit bright and lacking in fine detail that the Chinese tubes have/had.
I also replaced the 12ax7 tubes in this preamp with tung sols, so that's probably influencing the sound too now that I think about it. I'll let things burn in for a few hundred hours and see how it goes.
Dave
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I am pigging backing on the thread. Looking for 12au7 tubes which could help tame some of the highs on gr-research/av123 ls6 and provide a bit wider stage. The pre in question is response audio bella l/p.
TIA
-Deepak
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Guys:
I know that many of you have done some tube rolling in preamps. I am wondering what you have found to be your favorite 12AU7 Tubes?
Thanks,
Ken
I really love these pretty rare Brimar T-series 6067... Great sound!
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I am pigging backing on the thread. Looking for 12au7 tubes which could help tame some of the highs on gr-research/av123 ls6 and provide a bit wider stage. The pre in question is response audio bella l/p.
TIA
-Deepak
Dee try the Mullard CV4003 from upscale. That is what I use . Call me , I know someone who has a ton of 12AU7's for you to try.
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Grant announced new premium tubes from Shuguang over on AC last week. There is a 12AU7 among the lot. Tempting. But the pins look crooked on every small tube pictured. Less important to the sound, but how hard is it to make them straight like $8 New Sensor tubes?
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Grant announced new premium tubes from Shuguang over on AC last week. There is a 12AU7 among the lot. Tempting. But the pins look crooked on every small tube pictured. Less important to the sound, but how hard is it to make them straight like $8 New Sensor tubes?
Hey Rich ,That is so funny ! i noticed the same thing when i first saw the pictures posted at AC ;)
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I would have thought the fact that they spelled Pavane wrong on everything would catch more peoples attention :) Hand made tubes will rarely be visually perfect. Getting any two tubes that are perfectly matched on a tube tester is also another adventure, especially dual section tubes such as the 12AU7. Great sounding tubes, feedback from customers should be rolling out soon.
Cheers,
Ian
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Hand made tubes will rarely be visually perfect.
So the guy is holding the pins by hand while the glass cools? [-( Their cheap tubes have straight pins.
I'm looking forward to seeing the user comments. With the washout of Techtubes last year, the world still needs some premium 9 pins.
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I am pigging backing on the thread. Looking for 12au7 tubes which could help tame some of the highs on gr-research/av123 ls6 and provide a bit wider stage. The pre in question is response audio bella l/p.
TIA
-Deepak
I like RCA Blackplates. Tight, punchy bottom, lush but not overly soft mids, extended but slightly laid back highs.
Bryan
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I like RCA Blackplates. Tight, punchy bottom, lush but not overly soft mids, extended but slightly laid back highs.
Bryan
Later RCAs (gray) are similar, right Bryan? That's how my grays sound, but I only heard them in one preamp.
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I don't find the greys as rich in the mids but similar in the top and bottom. The cleartops, on the other hand, are considerably more forward, at least in any gear I've tried them in.
Bryan
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Agreed on the clears. I think the shy bass makes it seem bright. But the highs were clear and open, I liked that. Telefunkens, otoh, were too lean and bright for my taste. But mine could have been worn.
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Deepak,
The 12AU7s in the VAC pre you heard at your house were by RFT.
I've found them to be a well balanced tube - no prominence in any direction but I have not tried too many so my experience pales to most.
I'll be trying one in my EE DAC when it comes.
Jim McShane has some, and I also got some from Mask on AC, w/ very good service and low low price. :thumb:
-Mike
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I agree with Brian about the RCAs. Rich Teles are usually rich in character with plenty of detail. The Brimars are probably the best sounding overall but its the synergy thing that matters the most.
For example RFTs are known to be a tad bright but in a VAC almost perfect in the CAT preamp BRIGHT. goggle Joes tube Law he describes all the tubes quite well. Taught me a thing or two.
Shuquang has had its issues in the past with new production tube quality and sonics. I have owned quite a few. Maybe this time they got it right. At the offering price of the new tubes I would consider NOS tubes as well. Vintage Tube Service offers a twenty day return policy plus a one year guarantee if the tube fails. Ya can't beat that. I have several pairs of tubes from Andy that are still going strong after many years of use. He also has the best test equipment around. He treats the pins with a unique cleaning process that does make a sonic difference.
With the long journey in shipping, a new production run and no user reports with only a 30 day warranty IMO an extended warranty is a must. If they turn out to be great tubes God Bless and good luck.
charles
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Thanks to everyone for the recommendation. Will research some more and get a pair or two to try.
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I use late 1950's Tung Sol 5814a ( military version of the 12au7) tubes in my amp for inputs and drivers. I love these tubes.
Guys:
I know that many of you have done some tube rolling in preamps. I am wondering what you have found to be your favorite 12AU7 Tubes?
Thanks,
Ken
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Hey Deepak,
The Bella Pre will show the difference in all the tubes you try. The circuit was designed in such a way that everything within the chain will bring forth a noticable change.
I have never been one to recommend the use of NOS tube (as it is personal and expensive) but I won't use anything but NOS in the Purity units. BIG difference as compared to anything current production.
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Does he have some RCA cleartops?
I am pigging backing on the thread. Looking for 12au7 tubes which could help tame some of the highs on gr-research/av123 ls6 and provide a bit wider stage. The pre in question is response audio bella l/p.
TIA
-Deepak
Dee try the Mullard CV4003 from upscale. That is what I use . Call me , I know someone who has a ton of 12AU7's for you to try.
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Does he have some RCA cleartops?
I am pigging backing on the thread. Looking for 12au7 tubes which could help tame some of the highs on gr-research/av123 ls6 and provide a bit wider stage. The pre in question is response audio bella l/p.
TIA
-Deepak
Dee try the Mullard CV4003 from upscale. That is what I use . Call me , I know someone who has a ton of 12AU7's for you to try.
very expensive ones
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Hey Deepak,
A good tube to try in your application would be a pair of Raytheon (spelling?). My favorite tube of all my NOS 12AU7 types for a warmer presentation are a pair of Baldwin 5814's (made for Baldwin by Raytheon).
The RFT, IMO is not as warm. These were the tubes used in the Purity Reference in the Von Schweikert room as RMAF.
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Does he have some RCA cleartops?
I am pigging backing on the thread. Looking for 12au7 tubes which could help tame some of the highs on gr-research/av123 ls6 and provide a bit wider stage. The pre in question is response audio bella l/p.
TIA
-Deepak
Dee try the Mullard CV4003 from upscale. That is what I use . Call me , I know someone who has a ton of 12AU7's for you to try.
very expensive ones
my bad . he has the black plates. try ltr317
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Hey Deepak,
A good tube to try in your application would be a pair of Raytheon (spelling?). My favorite tube of all my NOS 12AU7 types for a warmer presentation are a pair of Baldwin 5814's (made for Baldwin by Raytheon).
The RFT, IMO is not as warm. These were the tubes used in the Purity Reference in the Von Schweikert room as RMAF.
Thanks for everyone's recommendation. Here are some 12au7 tubes that I have picked up:
Raytheon Black Plates Tubes made for Hammond Organ
JHS Sylvania 6189/12au7wa/5814WA
Sylvania 12au7 with Gold/Yellow lettering
RCA 5814WA Black Plates
RCA Black Plates made for Conn Organ
Couple of Marconi and GE tubes
I think I have enough to roll for next couple of months :thumb:
Bill, is it possible to use 12av7 with the Bella?
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RFT :thumb:
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Here's a link
http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html (http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html)
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Here's a link
http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html (http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html)
Thanks Evan for link, order placed.
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Here's a link
http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html (http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html)
Thanks Evan for link, order placed.
What did you order ?
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Marconis ? would love to try them myself. Great tube.
charles
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Marconis ? would love to try them myself. Great tube.
charles
Charles,
They are canadian version of used marconis that I picked up from ebay. Let me know if you want to try them and I can send them along.
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Need to try these...
http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-MEGA-RARE-BRIMAR-ECC82-12AU7-6067-BVA-CV3987-TUBE-/190456894480?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2c581d9410 (http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-MEGA-RARE-BRIMAR-ECC82-12AU7-6067-BVA-CV3987-TUBE-/190456894480?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2c581d9410)
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Need to try these...
http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-MEGA-RARE-BRIMAR-ECC82-12AU7-6067-BVA-CV3987-TUBE-/190456894480?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2c581d9410 (http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-MEGA-RARE-BRIMAR-ECC82-12AU7-6067-BVA-CV3987-TUBE-/190456894480?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2c581d9410)
:rofl: Man, those tubes better be good!
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No, they better give head.
I bought 12au7s today, some RCA cleartops on ebay, and assorted other RCAs from AN members. Also 3 Amperex on ebay. And a pair of 1960s Telefunkens from a guy in Turkey.
And still haven't spent what these Brimars cost.
More important, found out my bro-in-law has a tube tester, I have to drive up to Jersey to get it, maybe on the 11th going to or coming from the Rave.
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Here's a link
http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html (http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html)
Thanks Evan for link, order placed.
What did you order ?
1 matched pair of Telefunken 12AU7/ECC82 Ribbed Plates West Germany
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Here's a link
http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html (http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html)
Thanks Evan for link, order placed.
What did you order ?
1 matched pair of Telefunken 12AU7/ECC82 Ribbed Plates West Germany
I've got a set of 1960's Tele's smooth plates that came out of a Tandberg reel to reel from my fathers attic. My favorite tube. For everyday use I'm using 1950's Amperex 7316's. The closest I can get in sound to the 1950's Amperex Bugle Boy longplates which also are an arm and a leg. My neighbor has a pair and he won't give me a good price on them.
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Here's a link
http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html (http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html)
Thanks Evan for link, order placed.
What did you order ?
1 matched pair of Telefunken 12AU7/ECC82 Ribbed Plates West Germany
I've got a set of 1960's Tele's smooth plates that came out of a Tandberg reel to reel from my fathers attic. My favorite tube. For everyday use I'm using 1950's Amperex 7316's. The closest I can get in sound to the 1950's Amperex Bugle Boy longplates which also are an arm and a leg. My neighbor has a pair and he won't give me a good price on them.
Does he want more than $150 a piece for the 7316 D-getter longplates ? if they are NOS they can go upwards of $300 a pop because these really are the Holy Grail of the 7316's and the ones that precede them dont even come close. i dont even use 12AU7's in my current setup but i love my 7316 PQ D-getter longplates so much i would never even consider letting them go :drool:
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Here's a link
http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html (http://www.nostubestore.com/2010/10/telefunken-12au7ecc82-ribbed-plates.html)
Thanks Evan for link, order placed.
What did you order ?
1 matched pair of Telefunken 12AU7/ECC82 Ribbed Plates West Germany
I've got a set of 1960's Tele's smooth plates that came out of a Tandberg reel to reel from my fathers attic. My favorite tube. For everyday use I'm using 1950's Amperex 7316's. The closest I can get in sound to the 1950's Amperex Bugle Boy longplates which also are an arm and a leg. My neighbor has a pair and he won't give me a good price on them.
Does he want more than $150 a piece for the 7316 D-getter longplates ? if they are NOS they can go upwards of $300 a pop because these really are the Holy Grail of the 7316's and the ones that precede them dont even come close. i dont even use 12AU7's in my current setup but i love my 7316 PQ D-getter longplates so much i would never even consider letting them go :drool:
About that price. He doesn't even have equiptment that uses them anymore. Maybe he'll read this and give me a nice holiday gift.
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I have those yellow T Brimars in the 12at7 variation.
They really are great tubes, super musical, like Mullards on steroids