Author Topic: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers  (Read 32412 times)

Offline rollo

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2019, 06:59:46 AM »
  The Fritz two way is the one. The crossover is so well designed that a three way is just not warranted. Get a sub if ya need more. The beauty of Fritz designs is really the quality and great engineering of the crossover. Don't fool with it. Snell as well leave it the $%#& alone. The biggest reason we sell them. KISS.

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Offline Folsom

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2019, 11:00:44 AM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)

A bigger speaker is heavier? Say it ain't so :rofl:

The series crossover works like poop beyond a 2 way. But that doesn't mean he couldn't built a big MTM two way with bigger drivers. Maybe I'll ask him about that... if he's experimented with compression drivers and such.

Offline dBe

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2019, 11:25:30 AM »
A bigger speaker is heavier? Say it ain't so :rofl:

The series crossover works like poop beyond a 2 way. But that doesn't mean he couldn't built a big MTM two way with bigger drivers. Maybe I'll ask him about that... if he's experimented with compression drivers and such.

Ray Kimber experimented with the DiAural Crossover (series) and IIRC he did some experimentation with a compression driver and cone LF speaker. 

https://www.stereophile.com/news/10416/index.html

An excerpt:

"Just inside the plant's wide industrial door was a pair of large three-way professional horn loudspeakers, of a type that might grace the rafters at any arena rock show. Eric Alexander had also worked his magic on these, bypassing a disturbingly complex crossover network and ignoring the manufacturer's admonition to use the speakers only with the recommended processor. Instead, an old Technics SL-P1300 CD player was connected to an even older BGW power amp, which in turn was hooked up to the speakers through maybe 30' of 8TC cable. Kimber rolled open the door, popped a disc in the player, and motioned for me to go outside.

We walked away from the building about 50 yards and turned around to hear Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick with more clarity and fidelity than I have ever heard. The midrange was especially lucid, something that took me completely by surprise. Pro loudspeakers tend to sound raspy, nasty, and congested, but these were clean and clear as the Utah air. It was exactly the sound audiophiles wish for when they attend large concerts, and it demonstrated to me that it is entirely possible to move vast quantities of air without sacrificing sound quality. Kimber even turned it up loud enough to bounce the sound off a building 100 yards away, and the echo was also startlingly clear. So was the reflection off the inside of the door when he closed it."

Compression drivers are a perfect choice for a HF application in series crossovers due to their tremendous efficiency when compared to the LF driver often being 6-10dB more sensitive.  This headstart on power dissipation makes a well designed 2-way compression driver/cone driver series application much more appealing.  Using well heatsinked wirewound low TCR resistors like the 50W Ohmites opens up a world of options.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Ohmite/850F10RE?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvNd0dY0Kymzuw5pXeikcVFPra%252BA1kKclE%3D

I have a huge collection of crossover information that Ray sent to me back around 2000-ish It covers the history of crossover design. patents and the like.  Isent him some copies of old Speakerlab research by Pat Snyder that covers all types of crossover designs including cascading the HF section in a 3-way from the midrange section instead of just parallel connection that increases LF rolloff of the HF driver at low frequencies by the order of the midrange section.  Brilliant!

tThere is a tremendous amount of info out there IF one takes the time to do the research. Ray Kimber is one of THOSE guys!   :thumb:
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 12:08:29 PM by dBe »

Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2019, 01:14:43 PM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)

A bigger speaker is heavier? Say it ain't so :rofl:

The series crossover works like poop beyond a 2 way. But that doesn't mean he couldn't built a big MTM two way with bigger drivers. Maybe I'll ask him about that... if he's experimented with compression drivers and such.
Actually, it’s so  :lol: It was a bit of a what/if comment as I believe my current situation is not etched in stone
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Offline mresseguie

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2019, 07:54:55 PM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

First: We arrived in Taiwan - tired, but safe. Jet lag will stomp us for the next few days.

Jeremy,

I know little to nothing about XO design, so my naive mind doesn't understand how adding a woofer could mess up Fritz's crossover. In my mind, it's as simple as limiting the midwoofer's lower range to 80 or 100Hz and rerouting the <100Hz signal to the new woofer. I'm not questioning your statement. I just don't understand how XOs are designed and what limitations exist.

It sounds as though it's far simpler to get a subwoofer or two; stuff a sock in the Carreras ports, and listen to my heart's content.

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Offline Jack

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2019, 09:25:27 PM »
Michael

You won't need to stuff a sock in the ports unless you are going to place them too close to the wall.  But yes the Carrera's, twin subs and sturdy stands is simpler on the surface.  Fritz call me about a week ago and I was out so I need to call him back and will in the next couple of days.  I sent him an e-mail Saturday night about the turn this thread had taken and hoped he would join in but so far he hasn't.  When I call him I will ask him about both the passive and powered floor stander options.  He delivered another pair of Carrera's to Dev from AC on Sunday so maybe he will join the discussion at some point.
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Offline dBe

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2019, 10:19:07 PM »
quote author=mresseguie link=topic=7333.msg93995#msg93995 date=1575950095]
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

First: We arrived in Taiwan - tired, but safe. Jet lag will stomp us for the next few days.

It sounds as though it's far simpler to get a subwoofer or two; stuff a sock in the Carreras ports, and listen to my heart's content.
[/quote]Rest up, Brother.  Jet lag is insidious and leads us to do bad things like buying bad audio gear on a dopey whim!  🤪

Adding powered subwoofers makes a lot more sense than screwing with the incredibly complex relationships present in 3 way series crossovers. There are no ways to adequately model them and it is easy to screw up and blow up otherwise good drivers while trying to optimize one.  I know:  been there, done that... twice.  Sucked blowing up ScanSpeak tweets!

If one is serious about trying to do this here is where one starts.  Good luck:

https://www.tubecad.com/2017/11/blog0403.htm





Offline Brap

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2019, 09:24:50 AM »
Being a new member of the "Fritz Club", at this point I do not see a need for a sub.  Listening to string bass jazz pretty consistently, I am impressed with the low end of these.  Not the greatest room environment but these reach really low. Truly a satisfied buyer and highly recommended.  Running with a 35WPC ST-70
Fritz Carrera 7 Be
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #83 on: December 10, 2019, 09:48:53 AM »
Being a new member of the "Fritz Club", at this point I do not see a need for a sub.  Listening to string bass jazz pretty consistently, I am impressed with the low end of these.  Not the greatest room environment but these reach really low. Truly a satisfied buyer and highly recommended.  Running with a 35WPC ST-70

Yes, welcome to the club! I certainly have enough bass for my current situation. That ST 70 is quite the vintage amp.
Nick
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Offline mresseguie

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #84 on: December 10, 2019, 03:00:16 PM »
It occurred to me that I may have managed to disrupt this thread with my questions. If this is the case, perhaps I should continue it in a new thread(?). Just askin'.

I'm sitting in my living room listening to music while my new Sabaj D5 slowly burns in on my Taiwan-based system (approximately 10 hours now). The music certainly sounds nice, and I detect none of the metallic notes that my old Gustard ESS9018 DAC was guilty of producing. This is <so far> performing admirably considering the very low price of $429 delivered.

Without my checking my earlier posts in this thread, I'm thinking I haven't explained myself well enough. Posters keep pointing out that there is enough bass/low bass for them. Yet, my objective isn't solely about filling in the lowest octaves; it is more about first creating even better (cleaner, stronger, clearer??) midrange by relieving the midwoofers of the duty of producing bass in the <100Hz range, and secondly introducing stronger sub-100Hz bass with ~10" woofers in a room that sucks out huge amounts of bass due to its huge cu ft area.

If I were to place Carreras or REV 7s in my TV/family room in Oregon, the bass would still be sucked out of the listening space and disappear into the kitchen or upstairs hallway. I would be left with nearly the same problem that I already have with my Jeff Bagby Adelphos. My money would be much better spent on a couple of sealed Rythmik 15" subs - assuming my wife could be persuaded to live with them:roll:

Before I began thinking about trying Carreras or REV 7s, I had been thinking about commissioning a pair of fairly large three-ways whose goals were excellent midrange and bass to <approx> 30Hz. My commissioning three-ways is still a possibility. If I bought a pair of Fritz's speakers for this listening space, I would still have to buy <at least> one more subwoofer. It was while reading this thread that I hit upon the <apparently naive> assumption that adding a couple of 10" woofers to the crossovers ought to be pretty simple. [In my imagination, many otherwise complex actions are often pretty simple.  :lol:]

As much trouble as all of this is, getting my wife to allow a different placement of gear across the left wall (which is a far better position for audio) is a FAR MORE DIFFICULT endeavor.  :duh :duh

In closing....

Here I am in my concrete living room listening to my Fritz LS/5-R two-ways marveling at how beautiful they sound <even without acoustic treatments in this room>. I've got my Sabaj D5 connected to my IceEdge 1200as2 amp via XLR - simple, minimalist, beautiful. My 84dB sensitivity LS/5-Rs are finally happy. Hopefully, the D5 will live up to my needs and wants, and I can sell my bulky preamp and extra amp.   :thumb:
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #85 on: December 10, 2019, 05:56:46 PM »
It occurred to me that I may have managed to disrupt this thread with my questions. If this is the case, perhaps I should continue it in a new thread(?). Just askin'.

I'm sitting in my living room listening to music while my new Sabaj D5 slowly burns in on my Taiwan-based system (approximately 10 hours now). The music certainly sounds nice, and I detect none of the metallic notes that my old Gustard ESS9018 DAC was guilty of producing. This is <so far> performing admirably considering the very low price of $429 delivered.

Without my checking my earlier posts in this thread, I'm thinking I haven't explained myself well enough. Posters keep pointing out that there is enough bass/low bass for them. Yet, my objective isn't solely about filling in the lowest octaves; it is more about first creating even better (cleaner, stronger, clearer??) midrange by relieving the midwoofers of the duty of producing bass in the <100Hz range, and secondly introducing stronger sub-100Hz bass with ~10" woofers in a room that sucks out huge amounts of bass due to its huge cu ft area.

If I were to place Carreras or REV 7s in my TV/family room in Oregon, the bass would still be sucked out of the listening space and disappear into the kitchen or upstairs hallway. I would be left with nearly the same problem that I already have with my Jeff Bagby Adelphos. My money would be much better spent on a couple of sealed Rythmik 15" subs - assuming my wife could be persuaded to live with them:roll:

Before I began thinking about trying Carreras or REV 7s, I had been thinking about commissioning a pair of fairly large three-ways whose goals were excellent midrange and bass to <approx> 30Hz. My commissioning three-ways is still a possibility. If I bought a pair of Fritz's speakers for this listening space, I would still have to buy <at least> one more subwoofer. It was while reading this thread that I hit upon the <apparently naive> assumption that adding a couple of 10" woofers to the crossovers ought to be pretty simple. [In my imagination, many otherwise complex actions are often pretty simple.  :lol:]

As much trouble as all of this is, getting my wife to allow a different placement of gear across the left wall (which is a far better position for audio) is a FAR MORE DIFFICULT endeavor.  :duh :duh

In closing....

Here I am in my concrete living room listening to my Fritz LS/5-R two-ways marveling at how beautiful they sound <even without acoustic treatments in this room>. I've got my Sabaj D5 connected to my IceEdge 1200as2 amp via XLR - simple, minimalist, beautiful. My 84dB sensitivity LS/5-Rs are finally happy. Hopefully, the D5 will live up to my needs and wants, and I can sell my bulky preamp and extra amp.   :thumb:

Glad you are getting settled, Michael. As to staying on topic, that was never my strong point when I was the forum owner here. So I will let Folsom decide that.
I can’t help you much as to technical issues, especially since I’ve never had subs set up.
As to that ESS dac, I believe that chip has a reputation for some harshness.
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Offline Folsom

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2019, 04:38:15 PM »
I don't care, it's all Fritz talk. Either way is fine.

Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #87 on: December 14, 2019, 01:16:52 PM »
...As to that ESS dac, I believe that chip has a reputation for some harshness.

it's all in the implementation. have you read the reviews on the sabaj d5?  anything but harsh.  i have an older yulong d18, w/the ess 9018 chip; not harsh.

i've been interested in (relatively) cheap newer dac implementations; i suspect the latest crop will stand up to 5-figure dacs w/little issue.  even my trusty modded art di/o had no problem doing that 10 years ago.  i just received a cheap dac that i got on special - the topping d70, w/dual ak4497 chips (one per channel), we'll see how it goes.  even at its normal discounted price of $499, it's supposed to be really nice.  i got mine for a bit less than that!   8)

ymmv,

doug s.

Thanks for that, Doug. I hadn’t heard of the Sabaj. I’ve just searched for it and will read up on it.  It’s great to have your expertise as you find such great bargains  :thumb:
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Offline Jack

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #88 on: December 14, 2019, 02:03:21 PM »
Nick

I think Michael just bought one to take to Taiwan.
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Offline mresseguie

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #89 on: December 14, 2019, 02:29:45 PM »
Nick

I think Michael just bought one to take to Taiwan.

Jack is correct. My Sabaj D5 is still burning in, but it's got over a hundred hours on it now. I haven't sat down for a serious listening session yet (and won't be able to for another 4 or 5 days minimum), but it sounds pretty darned nice. I don't have either of my NOS DACs here for comparison purposes, so I won't be able to make comparisons. I do expect to visit at least two local audiophiles in January who love to compare components, and I will keep you abreast of their findings.

[I have not listened critically at this point, and my listening room is a largely untreated concrete box, so take this into account.]

Acoustic instruments sound correct; both male and female voices sound how I like them to sound. There was some glare and brightness in the first 24 hours, but that seems to have disappeared. I'll play some poorly recorded material (70s/80s rock) that sounds horrible on my main system in Oregon in order to satisfy my more masochistic tendencies.

My system in Taiwan consists of MacBook Pro streaming Tidal or the CDs I burned onto the HD => Sabaj D5 => IceEdge 1200as2 => Fritz LS/5-R with an all TWL loom. My USB cord is an inexpensive cord that came with the Sabaj D5. All components are plugged into Dave's DigiBUSS. I have a Super Duper MiniBUSS that Dave sold to me, which is in another room. I'll eventually plug it into this system. The Sabaj D5 is connected to the amp via Pete's XLR cables.

Anyway, so far so good. Considering it cost me just $429 delivered(!) this is one impressive sounding DAC. It renders my aging Gustard X20u ESS 9018 DAC useless. Who would be silly enough to buy it from me with the D5 as competition? Perhaps, I can one day reuse the case for a DIY project.

Michael

« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 02:40:36 PM by mresseguie »
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