Tidal Users- Loudness Normalization?

[James Edward]

I just came across this- https://audioxpress.com/news/tidal-implements-album-loudness-normalization-and-activates-it-by-default-for-mobile-players
It’s automatically set to default to this. Truth be told, I don’t understand all I’ve read about this, but I myself turned it off. It seems geared toward mobile users perhaps? A few articles I read mentioned bus/train/etc. listening; I’d like my listening uncompressed at home.
Truth is, I have only checked the settings on my Bluesound streamer in the past- when I went to the Tidal app itself, there it was, turned on. I’ve always thought my cd’s sounded better than streaming, even though I use the DAC input on my cd player, and regardless of bit rate. I’ll need days of listening to see if this is a possible cause, or just a red herring.
Thoughts anyone?

[James Edward]

I should have said that this default has been in place for years, but I came across it because Tidal is transitioning away from MQA, or at least adding hi-res files to their catalog, and I was checking my settings in the Tidal app.

[GDHAL]

I skimmed the article. IMO it's a good feature **ONLY** because they allow you to toggle it on or off.

I also think the term "loudness" is sort of a misnomer as that term already has its place in audio. It should be labeled something like "output decibel normalization".

I don't understand how they can accurately achieve output decibel normalization, unless the user selects all the songs in advanced.

Best.

Hal

[GDHAL]

Something else to consider. The feature is useful or useless depending on your use case. This is why I reiterate the only good thing about it is that you can turn it on or off

I don't think phans of Ravel's Bolero would find much use for it.

[James Edward]

I also have no use for it. I’m leaving it off- I suppose a party situation might warrant it, but otherwise no thank you…

[GDHAL]

So I read the article in its entirety and, therefore, have a much better understanding of what this "lufs normalization" (my term) is doing, how and why they arrived at the 14 lufs standard, etc .

No way would a serious audiophile turn that feature on for "critical listening".

For casual listening, they (Spotify, YouTube and all others where that feature is available) would really have something if there were settings, not just "on" or "off". For instance, if they allowed the listener to choose the target lufs, and choose the desired maximum attenuation (the feature does not apply positive gain) from the chosen target lufs, I think that would significantly increase the value of the feature and its adaptation.

Best

Hal

[Nick B]

From an audiophile/purist point of view, I don't care for it. I also use Roon and Roon will play music from both Tidal and Qobuz. Roon also allows me to select Qobuz as the default player when a Tidal and Qobuz version of an album or tracks are both available. I will say on occasion when I am randomly picking various tracks or albums, the loudness differences can be huge. That isn't a good thing when I'm cranking it up at 1:00 in the morning and am already cautious about not bothering my neighbors. Thank goodness for remote control as I wouldn't want to have to jump out of my easy chair each time it happens. The anti remote control purists haven't had to deal with these anomalies when streaming ... 😳

[GDHAL]

From an audiophile/purist point of view, I don't care for it. I also use Roon and Roon will play music from both Tidal and Qobuz. Roon also allows me to select Qobuz as the default player when a Tidal and Qobuz version of an album or tracks are both available. I will say on occasion when I am randomly picking various tracks or albums, the loudness differences can be huge. That isn't a good thing when I'm cranking it up at 1:00 in the morning and am already cautious about not bothering my neighbors. Thank goodness for remote control as I wouldn't want to have to jump out of my easy chair each time it happens. The anti remote control purists haven't had to deal with these anomalies when streaming ... 😳

No reason to be an anti remote purist. Good designs keep the remote control circuitry and mechanical components completely out of the audio/video signal path.

As to your loudness differential issue, I don't have that issue because I listen to an entire show of music, and with very little exception the level doesn't vary much. In your case, if you're going from one artist to another, or one service to another, the onus is on you to be mindful of decibel level fluctuation. The remote is your friend. The mute button especially, until you dial it down.

EDIT: I made mention previously in this thread to Ravel's Bolero. Believe It Or Not (that's a Grateful Dead reference) I have listened to that and other orchestral pieces in my day and on my current system. In cases where I know (or even think), the music has an extraordinarily large dynamic range to it, I make it a point to understand what the peak level is and adjust the volume accordingly prior to listening. That can be a PITA, but it is rather rare that I listen to audio compositions where the dynamic range is greater than 10db.

EDIT 2: Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood (Animals reference). To clarify my previous edit in which I wrote "...it is rather rare that I listen to audio compositions where the dynamic range is greater than 10db" kindly understand that I am NOT referring to passages within the same song where the band intentionally "waits". For example, if you check out this excellent performance of Grateful Dead Blow Away (Philadelphia 7/7/89) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHU5FywUBEk , note the passage of music between the (approx) 6:10 minute mark and 6:28 minute mark. Surely that is 10 db lower than other portions of the song.

[Nick B]

From an audiophile/purist point of view, I don't care for it. I also use Roon and Roon will play music from both Tidal and Qobuz. Roon also allows me to select Qobuz as the default player when a Tidal and Qobuz version of an album or tracks are both available. I will say on occasion when I am randomly picking various tracks or albums, the loudness differences can be huge. That isn't a good thing when I'm cranking it up at 1:00 in the morning and am already cautious about not bothering my neighbors. Thank goodness for remote control as I wouldn't want to have to jump out of my easy chair each time it happens. The anti remote control purists haven't had to deal with these anomalies when streaming ... 😳

No reason to be an anti remote purist. Good designs keep the remote control circuitry and mechanical components completely out of the audio/video signal path.

As to your loudness differential issue, I don't have that issue because I listen to an entire show of music, and with very little exception the level doesn't vary much. In your case, if you're going from one artist to another, or one service to another, the onus is on you to be mindful of decibel level fluctuation. The remote is your friend. The mute button especially, until you dial it down.

EDIT: I made mention previously in this thread to Ravel's Bolero. Believe It Or Not (that's a Grateful Dead reference) I have listened to that and other orchestral pieces in my day and on my current system. In cases where I know (or even think), the music has an extraordinarily large dynamic range to it, I make it a point to understand what the peak level is and adjust the volume accordingly prior to listening. That can be a PITA, but it is rather rare that I listen to audio compositions where the dynamic range is greater than 10db.

EDIT 2: Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood (Animals reference). To clarify my previous edit in which I wrote "...it is rather rare that I listen to audio compositions where the dynamic range is greater than 10db" kindly understand that I am NOT referring to passages within the same song where the band intentionally "waits". For example, if you check out this excellent performance of Grateful Dead Blow Away (Philadelphia 7/7/89) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHU5FywUBEk , note the passage of music between the (approx) 6:10 minute mark and 6:28 minute mark. Surely that is 10 db lower than other portions of the song.

Unfortunately, the mute function with the Supratek preamp has not been consistently stable in different geographic areas and voltages, so it is no longer offered as a remote function. That's what i've been told. I use Roon very often to find old music, so I'm constantly surprised by huge volume swings from album to album, track to track plays. It's not fixable and I just live with it. I've asked the Supratek tech in the US if he could install a Khozmo or Tortuga remote controllable volume, but he's not wanted to try it. My unit has an Alps, which I understand has been around for many years.

[steve]

From an audiophile/purist point of view, I don't care for it. I also use Roon and Roon will play music from both Tidal and Qobuz. Roon also allows me to select Qobuz as the default player when a Tidal and Qobuz version of an album or tracks are both available. I will say on occasion when I am randomly picking various tracks or albums, the loudness differences can be huge. That isn't a good thing when I'm cranking it up at 1:00 in the morning and am already cautious about not bothering my neighbors. Thank goodness for remote control as I wouldn't want to have to jump out of my easy chair each time it happens. The anti remote control purists haven't had to deal with these anomalies when streaming ... 😳

No reason to be an anti remote purist. Good designs keep the remote control circuitry and mechanical components completely out of the audio/video signal path.

As to your loudness differential issue, I don't have that issue because I listen to an entire show of music, and with very little exception the level doesn't vary much. In your case, if you're going from one artist to another, or one service to another, the onus is on you to be mindful of decibel level fluctuation. The remote is your friend. The mute button especially, until you dial it down.

EDIT: I made mention previously in this thread to Ravel's Bolero. Believe It Or Not (that's a Grateful Dead reference) I have listened to that and other orchestral pieces in my day and on my current system. In cases where I know (or even think), the music has an extraordinarily large dynamic range to it, I make it a point to understand what the peak level is and adjust the volume accordingly prior to listening. That can be a PITA, but it is rather rare that I listen to audio compositions where the dynamic range is greater than 10db.

EDIT 2: Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood (Animals reference). To clarify my previous edit in which I wrote "...it is rather rare that I listen to audio compositions where the dynamic range is greater than 10db" kindly understand that I am NOT referring to passages within the same song where the band intentionally "waits". For example, if you check out this excellent performance of Grateful Dead Blow Away (Philadelphia 7/7/89) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHU5FywUBEk , note the passage of music between the (approx) 6:10 minute mark and 6:28 minute mark. Surely that is 10 db lower than other portions of the song.

Unfortunately, the mute function with the Supratek preamp has not been consistently stable in different geographic areas and voltages, so it is no longer offered as a remote function. That's what i've been told. I use Roon very often to find old music, so I'm constantly surprised by huge volume swings from album to album, track to track plays. It's not fixable and I just live with it. I've asked the Supratek tech in the US if he could install a Khozmo or Tortuga remote controllable volume, but he's not wanted to try it. My unit has an Alps, which I understand has been around for many years.

Although addressed to Nick's post, I will use simplified points for those who are newbies.

Not wanted to try others for good reasons. The following occurs either standard
or remote types of volume controls.

For those new or novice, there are several types, each with strengths and weaknesses.

1. Series, continuous type (alps, noble, tkd, switchables, etc). Three connections, ground, wiper (signal output),
and signal input.
     A. Input impedance remains relatively constant at all volume settings.
     B. Optimal resistance is necessary for extended flattest high frequencies while also maintaining the
flattest response in bass region.
     C. Series switchable types. Same A, B, with many resistors with many many connections, usually soldered.

2. Shunt type control.
     A. The input impedance (resistance) varies with the volume control setting. Frequency response (FR)
changes with volume setting/rotation.

3. IR (infrared), photo resistor types are solid state "resistors" (light intensity varies the resistance) with
questionable sonic quality. Metal Oxide, metal film resistors, wire wounds, and bulk foils are not solid
state materials. Metal oxide, metal films, wire wounds, bulk foil resistors are the quietest types, in that order.
There are other material types, such as carbon, carbon film, tantalum types.

4. Relay switching types. The relay internal connections add to the total connections between input
and output.
     A. Terminal A welded to relay internal wire X.
     B. Wire X then connects to movable arm with contact U.
     C. Contact U makes connection to contact U'.
     D. Contact U' connects to wire Y.
     E. Wire Y connects to Terminal B.

Very important are the materials involved at each connection. Mating different materials will cause sonic
degradation unless very carefully engineered.

Concerning the OP's subject matter, I want no deviation from the original recording, if possible.

Hope this helps and Cheers.

steve

[Nick B]

From an audiophile/purist point of view, I don't care for it. I also use Roon and Roon will play music from both Tidal and Qobuz. Roon also allows me to select Qobuz as the default player when a Tidal and Qobuz version of an album or tracks are both available. I will say on occasion when I am randomly picking various tracks or albums, the loudness differences can be huge. That isn't a good thing when I'm cranking it up at 1:00 in the morning and am already cautious about not bothering my neighbors. Thank goodness for remote control as I wouldn't want to have to jump out of my easy chair each time it happens. The anti remote control purists haven't had to deal with these anomalies when streaming ... 😳

No reason to be an anti remote purist. Good designs keep the remote control circuitry and mechanical components completely out of the audio/video signal path.

As to your loudness differential issue, I don't have that issue because I listen to an entire show of music, and with very little exception the level doesn't vary much. In your case, if you're going from one artist to another, or one service to another, the onus is on you to be mindful of decibel level fluctuation. The remote is your friend. The mute button especially, until you dial it down.

EDIT: I made mention previously in this thread to Ravel's Bolero. Believe It Or Not (that's a Grateful Dead reference) I have listened to that and other orchestral pieces in my day and on my current system. In cases where I know (or even think), the music has an extraordinarily large dynamic range to it, I make it a point to understand what the peak level is and adjust the volume accordingly prior to listening. That can be a PITA, but it is rather rare that I listen to audio compositions where the dynamic range is greater than 10db.

EDIT 2: Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood (Animals reference). To clarify my previous edit in which I wrote "...it is rather rare that I listen to audio compositions where the dynamic range is greater than 10db" kindly understand that I am NOT referring to passages within the same song where the band intentionally "waits". For example, if you check out this excellent performance of Grateful Dead Blow Away (Philadelphia 7/7/89) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHU5FywUBEk , note the passage of music between the (approx) 6:10 minute mark and 6:28 minute mark. Surely that is 10 db lower than other portions of the song.

Unfortunately, the mute function with the Supratek preamp has not been consistently stable in different geographic areas and voltages, so it is no longer offered as a remote function. That's what i've been told. I use Roon very often to find old music, so I'm constantly surprised by huge volume swings from album to album, track to track plays. It's not fixable and I just live with it. I've asked the Supratek tech in the US if he could install a Khozmo or Tortuga remote controllable volume, but he's not wanted to try it. My unit has an Alps, which I understand has been around for many years.

Although addressed to Nick's post, I will use simplified points for those who are newbies.

Not wanted to try others for good reasons. The following occurs either standard
or remote types of volume controls.

For those new or novice, there are several types, each with strengths and weaknesses.

1. Series smooth, continuous type (alps, noble, tkd, switchables, etc). Three connections, ground, wiper (signal output),
and signal input.
     A. Input impedance remains relatively constant at all volume settings.
     B. Optimal resistance is necessary for extended flattest high frequencies while also maintaining the
flattest response in bass region.

2. Series switchable types. Many resistors with many many connections, usually soldered.

3. Shunt type control.
     A. The input impedance (resistance) varies with the volume control setting. Frequency response (FR)
changes with volume setting/rotation.

4. IR (infrared), photo resistor types are solid state "resistors" (light intensity varies the resistance) with
questionable sonic quality. Metal Oxide, metal film resistors, wire wounds, and bulk foils are not solid
state materials. Metal oxide, metal films, wire wounds, bulk foil resistors are the quietest types, in that order.
There are other material types, such as carbon, carbon film, tantalum types.

5. Relay switching types. The relay internal connections add to the total connections between input
and output.
     A. Terminal A welded to relay internal wire X.
     B. Wire X then connects to movable arm with contact U.
     C. Contact U makes connection to contact U'.
     D. Contact U' connects to wire Y.
     E. Wire Y connects to Terminal B.

Very important are the materials involved at each connection. Mating different materials will cause sonic
degradation unless very carefully engineered.

Concerning the OP's subject matter, I want no deviation from the original recording, if possible.

Hope this helps and Cheers.

steve

Thanks for the info, Steve. I have no way to judge how the current Alps in my Supratek preamp would compare to a Khozmo or Tortuga, but it would have been interesting to try one or the other. From comments I've read, the Alps does a good job and in my system, sounds very good. But I don't have a point of reference. What brand volume control devices would you rate as being the best, regardless of whether they would be remote controllable or not?

Nick

[steve]

From an audiophile/purist point of view, I don't care for it. I also use Roon and Roon will play music from both Tidal and Qobuz. Roon also allows me to select Qobuz as the default player when a Tidal and Qobuz version of an album or tracks are both available. I will say on occasion when I am randomly picking various tracks or albums, the loudness differences can be huge. That isn't a good thing when I'm cranking it up at 1:00 in the morning and am already cautious about not bothering my neighbors. Thank goodness for remote control as I wouldn't want to have to jump out of my easy chair each time it happens. The anti remote control purists haven't had to deal with these anomalies when streaming ... 😳

No reason to be an anti remote purist. Good designs keep the remote control circuitry and mechanical components completely out of the audio/video signal path.

As to your loudness differential issue, I don't have that issue because I listen to an entire show of music, and with very little exception the level doesn't vary much. In your case, if you're going from one artist to another, or one service to another, the onus is on you to be mindful of decibel level fluctuation. The remote is your friend. The mute button especially, until you dial it down.

EDIT: I made mention previously in this thread to Ravel's Bolero. Believe It Or Not (that's a Grateful Dead reference) I have listened to that and other orchestral pieces in my day and on my current system. In cases where I know (or even think), the music has an extraordinarily large dynamic range to it, I make it a point to understand what the peak level is and adjust the volume accordingly prior to listening. That can be a PITA, but it is rather rare that I listen to audio compositions where the dynamic range is greater than 10db.

EDIT 2: Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood (Animals reference). To clarify my previous edit in which I wrote "...it is rather rare that I listen to audio compositions where the dynamic range is greater than 10db" kindly understand that I am NOT referring to passages within the same song where the band intentionally "waits". For example, if you check out this excellent performance of Grateful Dead Blow Away (Philadelphia 7/7/89) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHU5FywUBEk , note the passage of music between the (approx) 6:10 minute mark and 6:28 minute mark. Surely that is 10 db lower than other portions of the song.

Unfortunately, the mute function with the Supratek preamp has not been consistently stable in different geographic areas and voltages, so it is no longer offered as a remote function. That's what i've been told. I use Roon very often to find old music, so I'm constantly surprised by huge volume swings from album to album, track to track plays. It's not fixable and I just live with it. I've asked the Supratek tech in the US if he could install a Khozmo or Tortuga remote controllable volume, but he's not wanted to try it. My unit has an Alps, which I understand has been around for many years.

Although addressed to Nick's post, I will use simplified points for those who are newbies.

Not wanted to try others for good reasons. The following occurs either standard
or remote types of volume controls.

For those new or novice, there are several types, each with strengths and weaknesses.

1. Series smooth, continuous type (alps, noble, tkd, switchables, etc). Three connections, ground, wiper (signal output),
and signal input.
     A. Input impedance remains relatively constant at all volume settings.
     B. Optimal resistance is necessary for extended flattest high frequencies while also maintaining the
flattest response in bass region.

2. Series switchable types. Many resistors with many many connections, usually soldered.

3. Shunt type control.
     A. The input impedance (resistance) varies with the volume control setting. Frequency response (FR)
changes with volume setting/rotation.

4. IR (infrared), photo resistor types are solid state "resistors" (light intensity varies the resistance) with
questionable sonic quality. Metal Oxide, metal film resistors, wire wounds, and bulk foils are not solid
state materials. Metal oxide, metal films, wire wounds, bulk foil resistors are the quietest types, in that order.
There are other material types, such as carbon, carbon film, tantalum types.

5. Relay switching types. The relay internal connections add to the total connections between input
and output.
     A. Terminal A welded to relay internal wire X.
     B. Wire X then connects to movable arm with contact U.
     C. Contact U makes connection to contact U'.
     D. Contact U' connects to wire Y.
     E. Wire Y connects to Terminal B.

Very important are the materials involved at each connection. Mating different materials will cause sonic
degradation unless very carefully engineered.

Concerning the OP's subject matter, I want no deviation from the original recording, if possible.

Hope this helps and Cheers.

steve

Thanks for the info, Steve. I have no way to judge how the current Alps in my Supratek preamp would compare to a Khozmo or Tortuga, but it would have been interesting to try one or the other. From comments I've read, the Alps does a good job and in my system, sounds very good. But I don't have a point of reference. What brand volume control devices would you rate as being the best, regardless of whether they would be remote controllable or not?

Nick

I use only Noble and TKD smooth, continuous pots in my components. I never use IR or switchable types.

I would assume the designers tested other types, and felt the Alps was best in their design. There might
be some circuit variations from designers, but there are usually basic sound characteristcs of each type
listed above.

I would suspect the switchables would be the  most expensive since resistors vary so wildly in price.
For newbies, the price for each resistor varies from pennies to $15 or more, so comparisons would be
quite expensive.

Cheers and good luck Nick. All the best.

steve

[P.I.]

+1 on Steve concerning the TKD pots.  I started buying them from Ron Wellborn a million years ag and all they ever did was sound good and never change.



I'm using one in m6 new build.

[Nick B]

Thanks, Steve and Dave. Was just curious what the experienced guys like.

[steve]

+1 on Steve concerning the TKD pots.  I started buying them from Ron Wellborn a million years ag and all they ever did was sound good and never change.



I'm using one in m6 new build.

Thanks Dave. Your welcome Nick.

In all the years I have used Nobles and TKDs, I have yet to hear a scratch when rotating the knob.
Quality design and construction.

cheers

steve