Author Topic: New speakers  (Read 7831 times)

Offline richidoo

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New speakers
« on: September 09, 2010, 09:16:09 PM »
I just finished these speakers today. They are a sealed cabinet, Qtc = .7, for feastrex D5nf. It was originally built in white pine boards, when i was on my Altmann inspired "raw wood to get into heaven" kick. Unfortunately, it worked well on the first time I tried it and poorly on every time since then. Now I finally understnd why. I got lucky. It is hard to make a resonant box work. It is easier to make a dead box work. These were unlistenable in pine. So I wallpapered it with another layer of 3/4 MDF. It still range a little on the rap test (singing rap into the driver hole.)  So I glued in some braces so max unsupported span is <6" as B&W research suggests. Voila! Dead. A few handfuls of pink FG, and I have a hifi Feastrex speaker. It sounds OK!

I had been using a big vent reflex (BVR) horn design by Planet-10. I really like that speaker, but it was made out of 100% MDF. I think the coloration is a combination of mild horn midrange echos and mild phase distortion but moreso the resonance. It worked well with voltage source amp, like Sol's i60. But Sol advised me to switch to current source amp for use with single driver speakers. That was a result of the first appearance of feastrex at a g2G 2 years ago. I had ruined those first pine boxes by bracing and stuffing them to "make them better." Tat combined with a bad match with Cary SLI80 a voltage source amp, Sol said he would design a current source amp for me.

Then I saw a post on AC by a guy announcing the publication of his book about current source amps in hifi. i got the book for Christimas and enjoyed it. Sol read it and gave it his blessing, the guy seems like a whack job to normal brainwashed audiophiles who like things just they way they are now, thank you. But his claims matched what Sol told me about current amps a year before.

The problem with current source is that it cannot control the driver AT ALL. It wants a pure flat impedance curve. It can only be used on single driver speakers, no passive crossovers, unless they are designed specifically for current source amp. Drivers should have a low mechanical Q so their resonance is low and it can damp itself. There are few speakers like that nowadays. Acoustic suspension was like that, but that's out of favor now with reflex better understood. Reflex is double bad for current source amp because you have the driver resonance 110Hz on feastrex D5, plus you have the resonance of the port playing low the notes with air spring energy in the box. All this screws with the impedance plot and the current source amp chokes, making big loose flabby bass. But the mids...

OOOOOOhh the mids and highs are ALIVE! Dense, thick tone, presence, wicked beautiful sound. So after hearing traces of it with the CS amp Sol designed for me I sought to optimize the system for the amp. The voltage amp was better in the bass because it can control things with reflex ports of the planet10 BVR design. But it didn't have the midrange.   

So I pulled out these sealed boxes, fixed the pine, put a zobel network on the amp to flatten the driver's impedance in the high freqs and now I have it tuned in pretty well. It sounds great. It sounds much better with the CS amp than it does with the VS amp as it should, single driver speakers should. I still need to scan the impedance with my woofer tester 3 to see what the actual impedance looks like, electrical impedance in the top freqs, and mechanical impedance in the lows are all visible on one graph with WT3. The zobel can be tweeked to flatten the highs, but the bass impedance must be flattened with stuffing to a point, then an aperiodic port must be used like a shock absorber to control the spring of the air inside the box. It is a port blocked by air resistive material (fiber). The amount of fiber or size of the hole is adjusted until the impedance is flat. Scan Speak aperiodic vent does this:
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=404_116&products_id=1323
It is a tricky skill to dial out the low freq resonance with aperiodic port. Don't really know how well it will work. But my resonance is at 110Hz, so it needs to be addressed. But thankfully, in the small box, the bass is already much better controlled than it was in the BVR with CS amp.

Eventually I want to make these Q.7 speakers in a sphere shape for minimal diffraction. I heard some of those at RMAF 08, and loved the sound. There is a certain free, open, not there sound of a sphere. But they aren't easy to fabricate. :D

Here are the pictures. The dark spots are stains made fron clamps. I think it is just from the MDF, but it could be from rubber feet on the cheap Home depot clamps.  I will round over corners and paint them to match the green fireplace.   I made some stands to go with them. They put the driver centers at 39", my ear height. They are 27" tall, but hopefully they will work with other normal bookshelfs that come to visit now and then.  They are hardwood ply, glued and stapled together, filled with sand in the center column. Spikes are coming, as is a 1.5" inch thick top platform, and finishing.

Overall I think the sound is great. The bass rolls off slowly, so there is some bass, but it is only 3.5" driver so you can't expect too much. Bass is musical, but there is no impact. I will try it with a sub tomorrow. But Feastrex are notoriiously difficult to mix with a sub. At 50Hz maybe not too bad.

The little silver amp on top is the current source amp, c25, 25wpc based on IC chip. The i60 is below that. Sonos, TT, Tuna, CDP also visible.

That's all I can type tonight. Here's your audio porn Rob: Thanks for pushing me to finish. Now push me on the acoustic treatments...



Offline Rob S.

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2010, 10:22:03 PM »
me likey the pictures, richie.  very descriptive in your text too. 

Rob S.
No new money spent on audio!!  but starting in 2012!!

evan1

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2010, 12:27:34 AM »
Nice work Rich. I should had you build me some speaker stands

lonewolfny42

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2010, 01:00:50 AM »
NICE...you built those .....pretty cool Rich !!!! :thumb:

One comment.....you need drapes for those windows.

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2010, 05:45:25 AM »
Rich,

I have boxes of the Scanspeak variovents.  Don't buy any if you haven't already placed the order!!  You're welcome to some of mine...

You might try the TBI Magellan subs with those speakers.  They're amazing at completely getting out of the way and fast enough to keep up....  You're welcome to borrow my pair and an ICE plate amp to power them.....
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline richidoo

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2010, 06:43:16 AM »
Hey guys thanks for the feedback. 

Evan, you will be much happier with the Targets than mine....  Your's are certified audiophile worthy.

Chris, you're right. Are you offering to sew?  :rofl:

Shane, thanks. I was gonna make the vent from scratch, but cut the hole and pop it in is much better. Thanks for the tip on the subs. I think the MDF box is still coloring the low notes, it's a little chesty. So it's not ready for good sub yet. This is the end of MDF for me. I gotta get a welder.

More porn coming later Rob. It's a good saw day today. Starting the OB speakers today.

Offline tmazz

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2010, 07:17:03 AM »
Here's your audio porn Rob: Thanks for pushing me to finish. Now push me on the acoustic treatments...

Hey pushing you to finish was the easy part. But in order to get acoustic treatments up in that room you are going to have to come face to face with "the wife factor".  :shock: (You're going to put what on my walls!!!!   [-( )

That push may not be so easy to do.  #-o

Hey we've all been there. No matter how supportive they are we always have to make "just one more change" and sooner or later we end up pushing them over the edge.  8)

But nervosa sets in and we just can't help ourselves. It's just the nature of the beast.  O:)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 07:21:59 AM by tmazz »
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline richidoo

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2010, 02:34:30 PM »
I've been chipping away at her for a long time Tom, she has given me the green light. I will be painting them same color as walls, and using matching fabric where paint don't go. It will be a little odd looking compared to typical museum space living room, but we all use it is a stereo room, so it works. Even her friends come over here to dance. They miss the Legacys. So I don't get too much pressure to conform. The kids are big into music too, so it actually gets a lot of use, even the sweet spot more and more.... We do have one neighbor who is an aspiring amateur decorator, she gives my wife some comic relief by dissing me now and then. Her husband is a latent audiophile, so I will have the last laugh when he starts finishing his basement.  Some of the panels will be on hinges or tracks to swing out of the way, with the reverse side painted wall color. Other panels will be removable to the other room for when the Queen visits for tea (inlaws).  :rofl:

Offline richidoo

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 06:26:10 AM »
The speakers do sound a little chesty, at first I thought it was the MDF. But it is the impedance spike at driver resonance. The current amp can't handle that, loses grip. Switching to the voltage amp cures the bass, but the midrange gets shouty.  Shane I'm gonna need 4 of those variovents. Can I pick them up from you at work sometime next week, or I can drop over. Thanks
Rich

Pics: Before and after adding zobel network. The high frequencies are tamed by flattening impedance electrically with a resistor and cap across the speaker posts. That lowers the Q of the voice coil (an inductor.) It also improves phase response at high freqs. But it doesn't change the low freq impedance peak much. That needs mechanical shock absorbers.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 06:27:53 AM by richidoo »

Offline bpape

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2010, 07:13:30 AM »
The 'shouty' part is a common problem.  Don't have a link right now but there are some ways to damp things just a tad to help with that.  Scott F has done a LOT of playing with single drivers and could offer more specific help than I can.

Bryan
I am serious... and don't call me Shirley

Offline richidoo

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2010, 10:43:53 AM »
I added one Scan Speak resistive port to the sidewall of the speaker.
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=404_85&products_id=1323

It reduced the impedance peak from 100Ohms down to 70 Ohms.  I might try putting two ports in each cabinet.


Offline richidoo

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2010, 11:55:21 AM »
Installing 2 aperiodic ports to the other speaker (different driver) still gave the same impedance peak, 73Ohms.   Now I have to put another port in the first box.  :duh

I guess a coil will be necessary to flatten it. 
http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=23
Large value parts. Cap = 114uF, Inductor = 14.8mH, Resistor 17.7 Ohms 5W.

Another reason for digital EQ correction.

Offline richidoo

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Re: New speakers
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2010, 01:37:29 PM »
The low frequency resonance is reduced by about half, I guess. But it makes the speakers sound cleaner but smaller. A lot of the bass balance there was is due to the resonance. You can only squeeze so much bass out of a 4" cone.  Reflex port tuned to 50Hz has been the best alignment so far.

The ports damp the cones everywhere, not just at the Fs. The sound is duller, cleaner, more hifi, like 40dB of negative feedback dialed in. I will remove some of the internal FG stuffing to see if that loosens them back up again.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 01:48:50 PM by richidoo »