Author Topic: You know what grinds my gears?  (Read 59495 times)

Offline rollo

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2015, 02:07:12 PM »
   Is anyone forcing anyone to buy the high priced gear ? The market will take care of high prices. Too high no sales.
    I cannot rationalize buying a $4000 power cord. However if I had the money to play with and the $4000 cord made my system sound better, it would be mine. That simple.
    If one feels leftout of the premiere gear by price just like cars that is life. Earn more money.
     A manufacturer will price products according to market trends. So if high priced gear is what is selling than expect a high price for those Manf's.
     Me personally have spent plenty retail money on audio. Now that I am in the business accommodations are made just like any other business to business transaction. My business is setup to discount when an item is not fair traded as most know and will attest to. I feel your pain.
     A real manf like audio Research, CJ, Bryston all have salaries, overhead, marketing and Adv. budgets and so on. It cost lots of money just to put the key in the door. For dealers 40% markup is to cover shelf life, overhead, services offered and rent.
    Most still discount to sell. I'm lusting for the Lamm reference preamp at 40K. Why ? It is the most well executed preamp I ever heard. Cannot afford it right now but when I can SOLD.
    Not looking to stir up the pot just offering my opinion which differs from yours. High horse ? C'mon Man.
    Lastly everytime you called me for a price I gave you basically my cost. To date you have not bought a thing.  :shock:

PS  Market determines prices they will come down or up accordingly.


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Offline topround

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2015, 02:42:33 PM »
Fortunately I do not need a thing, when it comes to audio.

A ferrari is expensive because  you know what goes into making one?
Hand made,exotic materials, state of the art engineering, and world class motors. There is no smoke and mirrors. just some of the best that is available at the time.

In audio, that really ain't thetruth. lots of smoke and mirrors are hidden inside some of those boxes, just look at the high priced class D amps, we all know they aint expensive to make at all.

It is the lack of value that  grinds peoples gears!
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline hogg

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2015, 03:34:07 PM »
Mike, I thought all of your extra "baloney" was going to this thread until I read this today.

http://www.nj.com/bergen/index.ssf/2015/10/bears_killed_parks_closed_amid_encounters_with_hikers_officials_say.html

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2015, 03:50:21 PM »
Lots of the furry fellas up my way.
Why shoot the bears ??  They were there first.
Shoot the hikers in the ass with #8 bird shot for messing with their territory !!  Especially Topround !!
My dog chased this one up a tree in our yard.
Greg

Offline richidoo

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2015, 04:01:29 PM »
PS  Market determines prices they will come down or up accordingly.

Correct!  

Mike you sound like a socialist! You and bernie and fauxcahontas can start a high end audio power cord company for the poor... government subsidied, of course.

Price discovery between informed buyers and sellers is very efficient. We know what to buy and how much to spend, and how much to charge and what to sell. We are so good at it, we can afford this luxurious hobby of high end audio and music listening. Have a little faith in your fellow audiophiles. You don't need to worry 'bout us. ;)

There's no inherent problem with free markets other than many people don't know how to use it to get everything they want. Ignorant of the truth about markets, they are susceptible to believing the socialist scammers' big promises. Capitalists know socialism can never deliver on the promises, but the market always delivers.

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2015, 06:11:06 PM »
What may be not obvious about many pieces of audio gear is that frequently a manufacturer has to order a part built to their specifications because an off the shelf part does not exist.
 This is a common occurrence when a unique approach to  circuit design used. You can't get there from here without the right part. Said part will always be subject to a minimum order quantity before someone will make it up. It doesn't take very many of these minimum order quantities to fill your warehouse full of enough parts for several years of production. If you are a small company building boutique audio gear it also ties up a lot capital in parts.  Damn few things you put into your custom built chassis will be readily available off the shelf. If you build a me too product, like a lot of the Japanese receivers back in the 70s a very large number of the parts might be available off the shelf. Frequently the company itself manufactured almost everything in the box, Panasonic anyone. Mass production, the use of readily available off the shelf parts and having many of the same parts common to the entire model line will help control costs.
 The economy of large scale production doesn't exist for small manufacturers. Mind you I am not saying these factors account entirely for the prices of expensive audio components but they are part of the equation.
Scotty
 

Offline Packfill

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2015, 06:59:18 PM »
"As administrator I request that discussion of financial classes and percenters and billionaires be muted now, and the topic return to whatever tangent it was on before, or a different tangent which follows The Rules."

"Mike you sound like a socialist! You and bernie and fauxcahontas can start a high end audio power cord company for the poor... government subsidied, of course."

"There's no inherent problem with free markets other than many people don't know how to use it to get everything they want. Ignorant of the truth about markets, they are susceptible to believing the socialist scammers' big promises. Capitalists know socialism can never deliver on the promises, but the market always delivers."


Yes, we get it.  You are a hard core Republican.  But someone needs to follow their own admonitions!  :roll:

I visit this forum to escape the ignorance and ideology that results when most people talk about economics and politics.  It's hard enough keeping them out of audio.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 07:32:05 PM by Packfill »

Offline satfrat

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2015, 07:45:29 PM »
Charles got on a high horse???? I want to know how the hell he got up there? And worse yet, how the hell's he getting off?  :rofl:

Leave them high horses alone Charles, you're too old for that shite. Ditto for myself.  aa

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Robin

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Offline topround

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2015, 02:35:07 AM »
Perhaps we need a power cord for the masses. a volkspower.
It would be green in color to represent that we are a green company, and our company would be a non profit of course,/. And any profits that were made by accident of course, would be donated to help the black bears and their efforts to reclaim their lost lands, that were stolen by us.

Also all materials used would be purchased from comapnies that are unionized, and have a strong moral ethic, were the workers were allowed to mill about free range style.

and yes of course we would need to be govt subsidized because all of those things cost money.

So I would design a green power cord that has a very small carbon foot print that not only makes your system sound good it makes YOU feel good as well.

Perhaps we could make enough accidental profit that we could fund a whole state just for the black bears and give them free health care of course, while we wait for them to develop some casinos for us to help get rid of some profit.
Power to the people power  power cord soon available! Price to be determined...........
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline topround

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #69 on: October 15, 2015, 02:42:19 AM »
Those damn pesky black bears gotta go, they do not pay taxes hence have no representation if you ask me.

Us hikers walk around mile after mile minding our own business, we leave footprints that have no or very little carbon in them, trying to enjoy nature.

These bears have gotten smart and formed "gangs" usually one main thug with his crew, terrorizing the woods, chasing us hikers, like we need extra cardio workouts!

Its time to arm the hikers and rid us of the scourge that runs rampant in our woods.
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline tmazz

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #70 on: October 15, 2015, 04:17:19 AM »
I think there was an audio publication around years ago that addressed modestly priced audio equipment. Forget the name.

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Offline jimbones

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #71 on: October 15, 2015, 06:03:12 AM »
Maybe that was it.

I don't have a problem with the high prices. It's just that when a very expensive piece of equipment is reviewed I am not interested in reading the review because they gush over it. I expect that the very expensive stuff should sound good so I feel like its a waste of my time. "Oh, this $20K cartridge sounds amazing!" yawwnnnn. It better sound good. Now lets get to that $600 cartridge.
I believe that technology has brought better performance and lower prices. For example the PS Audio Sprout.
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Offline machinehead

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #72 on: October 15, 2015, 06:55:04 AM »
I will be voting for Bernie. No republican has a chance btw. Beyond that... hopefully more manufacturers will hear the cry and provide more affordable gear for the poor folk.
Its cool ndude.

Offline richidoo

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #73 on: October 15, 2015, 07:03:15 AM »
Good one Mike!

I don't have a problem with the high prices. It's just that when a very expensive piece of equipment is reviewed I am not interested in reading the review because they gush over it. I expect that the very expensive stuff should sound good so I feel like its a waste of my time. "Oh, this $20K cartridge sounds amazing!" yawwnnnn. It better sound good. Now lets get to that $600 cartridge.
I believe that technology has brought better performance and lower prices. For example the PS Audio Sprout.

Good points!

At the beginning of my audio quest, back in 2005, I auditioned Paradigm 100s at a dealer with Integra receiver. It was OK, but nothing like the high end speakers I had auditioned like Legacy Focus, Wilson WP7. Then I read a glowing review of it from John Atkinson. I was perturbed to read that he auditioned these $3000 speakers with his flagship Levinson electronics, costing 20x the speakers. I emailed him about it, and he replied something like giving them the best opportunity to show their best, blablabla. That didn't make sense to me, but I appreciated his quick and genuine response. He always replies to email questions with real answers, kudos to that.

Now 10 years later, as a fully jaded audiophile, I understand his view: do whatever you can to make it sound good. But I feel it is deceptive not to ALSO test it with electronics priced proportionally to the speakers, something that would be in a real system using those speakers. Back then, when $3000 speakers was a big deal to me, using 40k of electronics on the test seemed a immoral deception, I did not get it. I ended up buying $5400 speakers and a used $1800 amp and $250 wires, and $300 source. haha It was a good starting place, but I went to the other extreme in not feeding my speakers well enough. Obviously I was/am biased against expensive electronics!

But I felt that I was a potential customer of the Paradigms, so this review was aimed at me, and I felt that his review did not match my audition experience at all. It felt like a con job. Like he was cheating, because typical buyers of Paradigm like me would never use Levison flagship electronics. And now I know electronics do make a huge difference, and indeed it was a con job. But it's common.

Another time I sat next to Robert Harley at some show while he auditioned some rebuilt Apogees, powered by the chameleon AR flagship tube electronics. I was excited to hear the amps as they were the only AR at the show. I didn't care about the speakers as I knew it didn't matter, it was gonna sound great just because of the amps.  Harley gave the vendor best of show award. Sure the overall sound was good, but the guy was a speaker seller, not even a AR dealer. Of course Harley didn't even mention the electronics. Readers were misled to think the speakers did the magic, some maybe, but not all of it.

In 2011 I got tricked into buying used Polk LSiM707 "flagship" speakers after hearing them at a show using $30k Audio Research flagship electronics and reading fanboy reviews on Polk forum. On the plus side, they had nice paint, and they are a heroic all-time engineering triumph in extreme cost cutting. I mean you simply can't believe what they did to cheapen it, and that's what it sounded like it with my amps.

Deceptive reviews and especially deceptive demos grind my gears!

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #74 on: October 15, 2015, 07:32:15 AM »
Rich, I am not sure I understand what you want. The best speakers in the world will be dependent on what they are fed and the room they are in for the resulting sound. Likewise a more moderately priced speaker, if linear, will still tell you about what is up stream of it.
 The GIGO rule always applies.
 Perhaps John Atkinson erred when he didn't say they sounded great but they weren't as good as Wilson Sophia's or Focal Grand Utopia BEs. One could say that the review needed to put the speaker's performance into perspective relative to much better performing loudspeakers.
 From your comments about the Polk's it sounds like you were unable to hear them or something from the line that was similar before you committed to buy the used pair. The lack of stores to allow you to audition something before you buy it has struck again.
 I agree about the deceptive nature of reviews. One certainly needs to learn to read between the lines and have the salt handy. In an ad driven environment this is going to be the order of the day. No one can tell it like it really is without buying outright every piece of gear they review and even then they would probably be sued for something.
Scotty