New Grover IC impressions (August 2007 graphite version)

[LKdog]

Thanks Carl-

Will continue to let these Grover graphites run in.
Some have suggested to me that cables with silver wire and/or silver connectors may really need 200 or more hours of break in.

[rlmacklin]

I actually prefer the all white version, which is the previous latest version.
The new 'graphite' colored ones are good too, just a little too detailed for me.  I like the 2000-foot view...   haha..

Seriously, the history that I am aware and my opinion on the sound signatures:
1 Grover sent us demo pairs of white Grover's with black shrink tube; sounded good but seemed a little less pronounced in the mids
2 By the time the first group by was organized, Grover had already upgraded them to have a little more midrange warmth or detail but didn't lose any highs or lows... So, that's what everyone got.
3 AN organized a tour for 'round 2' group buy...
4 By the time the order went in for round 2, Grover had upgraded the cables again to the graphite version, which have the same lows and mids but seem to have more detail in the highs.

That's what I've seen.  I would say there is a family resemblance of the various upgraded cables for sure but if I could make a suggestion, I'd split the whites and graphites into 2 different 'flavors' and sell both. 

-C

P.S. Nice 'tography, Rich.

And quoting myself from "latest white Grover S interconnects" thread :

" [I had and used] first white Grover S and now 2nd white version Grover S. 
I had to send the first version white Grover S back to Grover to update to the latest white Grover S, so never physically had both at same time to compare sonically side by side.  The first white Grover S were excellent and left me feeling I was just listening to the music after burn-in, but the second/current white Grover S reveal yet another significant layer of musical detail/ambience that in my judgment, this one goes more than half-way from first white Grover S to whatever could be expected as the "endpoint" for any "audio nirvana" IC to sound like.  (Sorta like the old Greek "Zeno's Paradox")  "

I got what I called second white Grover S some time after the first group buy and expected based on Grover's e-mails that this would be the design folks would receive in the second group buy.  I did hint to Grover that a darker color Techflex might be appreciated by folks to better disappear around their gear.
When I heard of the darker color Techflex covering showing up in the group buy, I asked Grover if there were any design changes other than the cover coloring.  He sent a quick reply that he was off for a 2 weeks vacation after finishing the group buy cables...

I have not seen/heard the Grover S w/"graphite" Techflex (when Grover e-mailed me last he called them "charcoal" color). 
Were the Grover S cables on "tour" between first and second group buy white techflex with white heatshrink?
If so they may be the ones I have currently and were the second (or third?) white Grover S design.

If the graphite/charcoal Grovers have too much treble or treble detail for some,
I would still recommend to get the most recent white Grover design as it is well beyond the first (and second?) white Grovers and sounds very well balanced in my system.

Grover should be back soon from the 2 weeks in the mountains and hopefully can address any changes he may have made in the design of the graphite/charcoal ICs ...

rlmacklin

*********************************

System:
 

double cryoed Oyaide R1 duplex wall outlets to Black Sand Cable Silver Ref MkV power cords to all three Odyssey power amps and also to the PS Audio Power Plant Premier, which feeds entire front end (sources and 3 preamps) through Black Sand Violet power cords.
 
front l/r: stock Denon 3910 > white Grover S ICs > Modwright SWL 9.0 Signature with Bendix 6900s and cryoed Philips metal base GZ34 NOS 1957 > white Grover S ICs > Odyssey Mono Extreme SE amps with Klaus's "special boards" > Grover S bi-wire speaker cables > Polk Audio SRS-2 speakers (with custom SDA cable made from Grover UR speaker cable)

center: stock Denon 3910 > white Grover S IC > Sunfire Symphonic Reference preamp > white Grover S IC > Odyssey HT-3 power amp with capacitance upgrades > Grover SR speaker cable > Polk Audio Csi-5 speaker

l/r surround: stock Denon 3910 > white Grover S ICs > PS Audio PCA-2 preamp > white Grover S ICs > Odyssey HT-3 power amp with capacitance upgrade > Grover UR speaker cables > Polk Audio Fxi-5 speakers
"
******************************************************************************

[LKdog]

rl-

Thanks for the info.

Did you feel that the "second" white Grover S's (that are most likely these same Grover charcoals/graphites) were a bit more revealing in the treble than the Grover S whites from the 1st Group Buy?

-thx-

Tony

[Carlman]

So, it sounds like I'm missing a version... I thought there were 3 but there are actually 4:
There was wb (white w/ black techflex) the first we received at AN for the tour
Then wwI (white w/white techflex) my fave, more mids
*Then wwII (white/white) A change to termination?
Then graphite or charcoal ... Same as wwII?

So, there are 4 versions of the "Grover S". 

[mdconnelly]

Kinda makes your head hurt, don't it?  Given the frequency of Grover's changes, perhaps he should begin versioning the cables like software build releases.

Carl, my understanding was that what you're calling wwI was, in fact, the termination-only upgrade over the white w/black cables.   I asked Grover about my white w/black XLR ICs when the white w/white cables were shipped and he replied that the only change was to the terminations on the RCA ICs.   So I'm not sure there was two versions of the white w/white.   But then, only Grover knows for sure.

[rlmacklin]

Hope this doesn't make your heads hurt worse...
but for historical accuracy I checked my saved e-mails to/from Grover
and there were 2 versions of black Grover S before any white Grover S !

3/12/07 to Grover:
I joined up on the AudioNervosa forum and saw the Grover vs. Stealth Indra comparison in the works/underway. In particular I noted the "Grover is really excited about the new version he's sending."
Are these an even newer Grover S than what I have now?
If so, what do I need to get some ???

3/13/07 to Grover:
Thanks for your prompt reply and your promise to keep me up to date.
I look forward to getting and hearing your new S when you are satisfied with it.

3/29/07 to Grover:
When can we get the latest/greatest Grover S cables???

5/9/07 to Grover:
The white Grover S cables were awaiting in Oak Ridge last evening - got them installed last night.
Certainly no negatives noticed yet -these seem a bit quieter, more relaxed, smoother - but also preserve or improve on usual high level of detail, yet the detail sounds "richer" to me so far.

5/13/07 to Grover:
The white Techflex jacketed Grover S raise the bar another substantial notch over the 2nd iteration black Grover S.  I'm basically listening to nothing but the music with these new ones!

5/18/07 to Grover:
Enjoying the music so much with the white Grover S with more burn-in..
These resolve way "deeper" into the recording.  Hearing vastly more of the room ambience and music details/harmonics and sustain/decay phase of all the notes/instruments/voices to where they now sound
more "complete" to me.

Learned of new iteration Grover S and sent first white Grover S back to Grover
5/31/07 to Grover:
Did you get the white Grover S cables yet which I sent back to you ?

6/10/2007 to Grover:
new Grover S ICs have arrived...

6/11/07 to Grover:
=)  Got all the new cables in and was listening to music most of the way through until 2 AM. this morning.
First reaction was Revelatory!
 Hard to believe there was yet another layer of musical detail on the media and extracted by the player but not getting all the way through the system to the speakers because it was not passed through by even previous iteration white Grover S.  As there is some of this previously masked or hidden musical detail in the frequency extremes, it sounds as if there may be additional frequency extension of bass and treble, but still great balance as the additional detail is presented in the midrange as well...

6/13/07 to Grover:
For Audio Nervosa folks who bought the first white Grover S in their demo tour before the first group buy , they are starting a new thread to sort of consolidate their Grover S reviews.
 As they will start a second group buy soon, I am wondering if you could or would let them know that what they would get in a second group buy is "in another league" (at least as far as I am concerned).  Those who got first white Grover S and buy more (as some are considering) will surely notice the improvement.
Have you sent "Carlman" (Carl  MacMillan in North Carolina) any of the latest ones for a second demo tour?
 
I remember sharing the mathematical Zeno's Paradox onetime, where each step toward an endpoint, if you get halfway closer to the end each time you will never get there theoretically, but at some step it becomes so close as to be insignificant in real world.
The first white Grover S I had were very good, but I can only imagine that the 2nd white Grover S are a larger step than half-way from those ones to the ultimate/nirvana IC.

6/19/07 to Grover:
2nd white Grover S ICs continue to burn in and are the most detailed, most extended, most open, most musical, and smoothest of all your efforts.

6/21/07 to Grover:
The 2nd iteration white Grover S ICs continue to keep me immersed in the music and if anything have only gotten better.

8/17/07 to Grover:
Rich posted a picture of the Audio Nervosa Grover S group buy cables he received and they are in dark techflex again.  Did you make any other changes to the Grover S from the white version I have?
 
8/31 to Grover:
If you are back from the mountains, please check the new thread for the latest dark Techflex Grover S which they are calling Grover "graphite" at Audio Nervosa, in the Cranioelectric Stimulation section,
Topic: New Grover IC impressions (August 2007 graphite version)
You may wish to address any design changes in the "charcoal" Grover S....
Some 2nd group buy folks are saying the "graphite" seems too "hot" (or has too much/unbalanced detail) in treble.
 
I got a reply from Sherie, who said Grover is not back yet (sometime this weekend!) but she will make sure he gets my latest e-mail as soon as  he gets back.
 
rlmacklin

[mboldda1]

ok, i have the last all white grovers before this charcoal colored one.  i found something very interesting, i have the grovers between my preamp and power amp and it is ohh so neutral but add another pair between the dac and preamp and i can't stand it...too bright.  go figure, so i only have one pair of grovers as one of my reference cables.

[LKdog]

Hope this doesn't make your heads hurt worse...
but for historical accuracy I checked my saved e-mails to/from Grover
and there were 2 versions of black Grover S before any white Grover S !

3/12/07 to Grover:
I joined up on the AudioNervosa forum and saw the Grover vs. Stealth Indra comparison in the works/underway. In particular I noted the "Grover is really excited about the new version he's sending."
Are these an even newer Grover S than what I have now?
If so, what do I need to get some ???

3/13/07 to Grover:
Thanks for your prompt reply and your promise to keep me up to date.
I look forward to getting and hearing your new S when you are satisfied with it.

3/29/07 to Grover:
When can we get the latest/greatest Grover S cables???

5/9/07 to Grover:
The white Grover S cables were awaiting in Oak Ridge last evening - got them installed last night.
Certainly no negatives noticed yet -these seem a bit quieter, more relaxed, smoother - but also preserve or improve on usual high level of detail, yet the detail sounds "richer" to me so far.

5/13/07 to Grover:
The white Techflex jacketed Grover S raise the bar another substantial notch over the 2nd iteration black Grover S.  I'm basically listening to nothing but the music with these new ones!

5/18/07 to Grover:
Enjoying the music so much with the white Grover S with more burn-in..
These resolve way "deeper" into the recording.  Hearing vastly more of the room ambience and music details/harmonics and sustain/decay phase of all the notes/instruments/voices to where they now sound
more "complete" to me.

Learned of new iteration Grover S and sent first white Grover S back to Grover
5/31/07 to Grover:
Did you get the white Grover S cables yet which I sent back to you ?

6/10/2007 to Grover:
new Grover S ICs have arrived...

6/11/07 to Grover:
=)  Got all the new cables in and was listening to music most of the way through until 2 AM. this morning.
First reaction was Revelatory!
 Hard to believe there was yet another layer of musical detail on the media and extracted by the player but not getting all the way through the system to the speakers because it was not passed through by even previous iteration white Grover S.  As there is some of this previously masked or hidden musical detail in the frequency extremes, it sounds as if there may be additional frequency extension of bass and treble, but still great balance as the additional detail is presented in the midrange as well...

6/13/07 to Grover:
For Audio Nervosa folks who bought the first white Grover S in their demo tour before the first group buy , they are starting a new thread to sort of consolidate their Grover S reviews.
 As they will start a second group buy soon, I am wondering if you could or would let them know that what they would get in a second group buy is "in another league" (at least as far as I am concerned).  Those who got first white Grover S and buy more (as some are considering) will surely notice the improvement.
Have you sent "Carlman" (Carl  MacMillan in North Carolina) any of the latest ones for a second demo tour?
 
I remember sharing the mathematical Zeno's Paradox onetime, where each step toward an endpoint, if you get halfway closer to the end each time you will never get there theoretically, but at some step it becomes so close as to be insignificant in real world.
The first white Grover S I had were very good, but I can only imagine that the 2nd white Grover S are a larger step than half-way from those ones to the ultimate/nirvana IC.

6/19/07 to Grover:
2nd white Grover S ICs continue to burn in and are the most detailed, most extended, most open, most musical, and smoothest of all your efforts.

6/21/07 to Grover:
The 2nd iteration white Grover S ICs continue to keep me immersed in the music and if anything have only gotten better.

8/17/07 to Grover:
Rich posted a picture of the Audio Nervosa Grover S group buy cables he received and they are in dark techflex again.  Did you make any other changes to the Grover S from the white version I have?
 
8/31 to Grover:
If you are back from the mountains, please check the new thread for the latest dark Techflex Grover S which they are calling Grover "graphite" at Audio Nervosa, in the Cranioelectric Stimulation section,
Topic: New Grover IC impressions (August 2007 graphite version)
You may wish to address any design changes in the "charcoal" Grover S....
Some 2nd group buy folks are saying the "graphite" seems too "hot" (or has too much/unbalanced detail) in treble.
 
I got a reply from Sherie, who said Grover is not back yet (sometime this weekend!) but she will make sure he gets my latest e-mail as soon as  he gets back.
 
rlmacklin

My head does hurt.
I keep thinking, though, of When Harry met Sally in the restaurant scene where Meg Ryan fakes an O when she is eating (your 6/19/07) comment.
I'll have what she is having. 

[LKdog]

ok, i have the last all white grovers before this charcoal colored one.  i found something very interesting, i have the grovers between my preamp and power amp and it is ohh so neutral but add another pair between the dac and preamp and i can't stand it...too bright.  go figure, so i only have one pair of grovers as one of my reference cables.

I am using two sets.
1) Source to Preamp
2) Preamp to amps

May explain my experience of the treble being a tad too hot or hard.
Does seem to have calmed down a little bit from 120 hours to 160 hours.
Maybe there is more break in ahead.

[shep]

 
What's the right reaction??? Well we are on the cutting edge of madness, so what to expect? At least it's only a cable and not a 50 pound speaker or amp that has to be sent back X times! I'm holding off sending mine back until Grover replies to our concerns and this gets sorted out. (hmmm do I hear the sound of collective grunts?) The good news is that we are heavy weight tester/clients.

[jrebman]

I honestly believe that the stated break-in time is only what is needed to get one past the harshest period and given my experience with silver, these won't fully settle into their final sound until 400 - 500 hours of playing time.  At least that's what I'm hoping will happenn.

-- Jim

[grover]

Hi everyone, I'm back. I have to admit I'm surprised. I thought you guys would be in audio heaven. Of course the highest frequencies are the most critical when listening for every stage of the audio chain. In my opinion these charcoal cables are extraordinary though out the frequency range. The White cables to me were a little rolled off up there without the resolving power needed to hear say a single triangle in the mist of the orchestra. I also think the charcoal cables have a finer cleaner character. I know every thing is system dependent, but in my opinion hardness in the upper mids and highs may be elsewhere in the chain. Digital is very sensitive in this respect. If some wish I can change the cables to change the high frequency character, but I don't recommend it. Copper cables sound smooth and cover over many equipment flaws, but the sound is also covered, and not very revealing in my opinion. I worked hard to perfect these cables as you have read from Rmacklin. To me the ability of these cables to resolve the being at the recording session with lush smooth musicality especially in the vocals makes these cables very remarkable.

[indelibo]

Hi Grover, how about a brief rundown of your audio system?  BTW, keep up the good work!

[djbnh]

Grover, some of us are in audio heaven - see this and this.

Interesting comment / opinion about a system's digital source possibly being responsible for hearing some "harshness". I remember reading a post in which one was using two sets of the ICs, and kind of pointed in this same direction.

[Bunky]

Hi everyone, I'm back. I have to admit I'm surprised. I thought you guys would be in audio heaven. Of course the highest frequencies are the most critical when listening for every stage of the audio chain. In my opinion these charcoal cables are extraordinary though out the frequency range. The White cables to me were a little rolled off up there without the resolving power needed to hear say a single triangle in the mist of the orchestra. I also think the charcoal cables have a finer cleaner character. I know every thing is system dependent, but in my opinion hardness in the upper mids and highs may be elsewhere in the chain. Digital is very sensitive in this respect. If some wish I can change the cables to change the high frequency character, but I don't recommend it. Copper cables sound smooth and cover over many equipment flaws, but the sound is also covered, and not very revealing in my opinion. I worked hard to perfect these cables as you have read from Rmacklin. To me the ability of these cables to resolve the being at the recording session with lush smooth musicality especially in the vocals makes these cables very remarkable.

The graphite S IC's are my new reference.in my system they are stellar from top to bottom.they offer a slightly forward but in no way bright perspective and dont seem to color the sound.for the goals that i have set for the sound of my tube rig they fit it to a Tee! thanks....WCW III