Author Topic: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010  (Read 8939 times)

Offline StereoNut

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Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« on: May 22, 2010, 06:33:41 AM »
Good morning to all!

I hope everyone enjoyed themselves last night for the Syndrome meeting. :beer: :pop

I think I have to ask Cathi (my wife) to make an extra "stuffed bread" or two the next time we have a meeting here.  The one she made went faster than a $1000.00 retail audio item on a no-reserve auction that somehow only one person noticed on A'gon and won with a one and only bid for the opening $1.00 price! :shock:

I was glad to see such a great turnout and want to say thanks to all those who were nice enough to bring additional snacks, dessert and/or drink.  To whomever brought the goodies from Sapienza Bakery, I apologize... I forgot about the box in the fridge! :duh

Oh, and before I forget again (I left this out of the e-mail I just sent to the club members) I want to thank Paul for bringing the Fritz Carbon 7 speakers to listen to.  (Nice sounding bookshelves, excellent fit and finish.)  And also to Mel for providing his expertise in terminating the "Monster" wire for me and in general being such a help with switching the speaker cables in/out for the demo/test.  :clap:

I think the speaker cable demo/test was interesting, although I myself didn't get to hear too much from where I was standing.  I will try to spend more time with all of the cables myself before sending everything back to the manufacturer and retailer who were so kind to loan the cables out to us.  :thumb:

If anyone has any comments about the cables or the speakers we listened to last night, it would be nice to know what your thoughts are.

 SN
(Bill)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 08:56:49 AM by StereoNut »
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2010, 08:13:43 PM »
Thanks to Bill & Cathi for opening their home to us for what turned out to be another successful Syndrome meeting.  :thumb:

For the 5th month in a row we have had close to or over 30 people attending. I was only last Thanksgiving weekend the the major topic of discussion was that some members thought the club was heading into a death spiral because the meetings were getting so poorly attended. And ever since then we have had people hanging from the rafters (another case of be careful what you ask for..... :roll:)

I agree with Bill the fit and finish of the Fritz speaker was very nice (and as someone who has owned Thiel speakers for 22 years I don't impress to easily in that department. As for the sound, they were OK for what they were, but not really my cup of tea. Being spoiled with a dedicated audio room I have the space to place a full size set of speakers and sacrificing sound for space is not a concept that is in my realm. (of course as my boys are not to many years from finishing college and moving out, it may not be too long before I am looking to downsize my living accommodations and I may have to eat those words, but for now full size is my chosen way to go.)

As for the speaker cables, there was no doubt that the triple run of monster cable was clearly not in the same league as the other three we listened to (JPS SC Qs, Audio Art and Harmonic Technologies  :drool: ), which didn't really surprise anyone, but it was a fun experiment. I heard different things from all three cables but was convinced that they were close enough that I couldn't declare a definite preference given the limited time that we listened to them. Before I made a real decision I would definitely want to hear then with different types of music to see haw that behaved across a broader spectrum of  musical selections. It wouldn't be the first time I heard a cable that I like best with rock our electric jazz and not at all with acoustic camber music. :duh I would also like to hear them with a more reasonable amount of people in the room, as we all know how much effect extra bodies in the room can have.  ](*,) But the bottom line is that I did come away from the meeting with a feeling that all three  were superior cables that would be worth my time to investigate further. (While it may be tough to pick a winner under conditions like we had last night, it is pretty easy to spot a loser.)  #-o
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Offline StereoNut

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2010, 09:42:38 AM »
"Thanks for the thanks", Tom!

As far as the speakers and cables go, the comparison of the Fritz bookshelves to my Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen.III's is "apples to oranges".  I don't think the Carbon 7's were bad (not at all) but they certainly not close to being a full-range speaker.  I doubt there'd be anyone who was at the meeting Friday night at my house or at your place for any recent meeting that wouldn't prefer either of our (Thiel or V.S.A.) speakers over the Fritz bookshelves.  Maybe they'd be nice in a small second system or if one wanted to complicate their life a bit, maybe give the Fritz's "a spin" with a subwoof as a sub/satellite set-up?  :idea:

In regards to the cables, I'd like to add some thoughts here so everyone knows what I was thinking...  

It was obvious that the "home-brew" Monster cables didn't come close to any of the others.  I included them for a number of reasons.  First off, I happened to have the wire laying around the house.  Secondly, I had the advantage of having Mel terminate them for me, so they could be utilized easily in the comparison - so why not?  I'm sure that after we did the blind listening demo/test there were some (many?) of the guys that may have thought "why bother or waste our time with such crap?"  :-s but I thought of this whole thing in a "different light" going into this meeting.  (Oh, and before I say anything further, the first time I tried or heard those Monster cables were when everyone else did on Friday night.)  I was amused by the thought of "what if?"...  :-k What if, the Monster cables didn't sound so bad?  What if, the Monster cables weren't so far off from any or all of the others?  What if, the Monster cables were good enough to give everyone at the meeting "something to talk about" (no disrespect to Bonnie Raitt) considering the other cables (not including the Harmonic Techs, because I don't know what they sell $$$ for) cost anywhere from eight (8x) to about fifteen (15x) times the price of the Monsters that Mel assembled for me!!!  

I know, I know already... things didn't work out that way, but there's no way to know until you try things out and listen.  Keep in mind, the Monster cables altogether probably would cost someone about $100.00 to put together.  I can assure you (not you specifically, Tom - but anyone reading this) that IF the Monsters (by some twisted sense of humor by the audio Gods) did sound really good in comparison to the others, there would've been dozens of Syndrome members lined up in from of Best Buy this morning, laying down their money
for a spool of Monster wire and 2 packages of connectors!  Unfortunately for Best Buy and Monster that wasn't the end result, but I thought the "what if?" of the experiment made it all worthwhile.

Regardless, I am glad that everyone seemed to have a good time Friday night.  :thumb:  Thanks again to all that brought "goodies" to add to the festivities and to those who were kind enough to say a lot of nice things about my system.  :clap:

 SN
(Bill)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 09:54:16 AM by StereoNut »
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Offline James Edward

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2010, 04:39:53 PM »
I was in the camp of 'wires might make a difference', but really on the fence as to whether I would notice.
So at Bill C's soiree I was surprised to notice a difference even under less than ideal conditions. I say less than ideal because there was the usual background noise wafting in from the other rooms. It's now  obvious that when we do our 'critical listening', there is no question that the differences will be that much more apparent.
I could have lived with wire 1 or 3, and will be looking into trying them in my own system. A great feature of the club is this ability to listen to other member's gear, and to experience manufacturer's gear on loan.
My friend Joe really liked the Fritz Carbon 7's. He had suspected he wouldn't due to their diminutive size. They 'sounded larger' than they looked. Thanks to Fritz Speakers for lending them and Paul M for lugging them out by train.
I felt Bill's Von Schweikerts might benefit from a lower woof to mid crossover point and offered to solder some new crossover items in place, but he said no.  :(
Thanks Bill, and the soldering offer still stands. Maybe the amp could use a few new caps too.  :lol:
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Offline rollo

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2010, 05:42:25 AM »
  We would like to thank Shane of Hometheaterdoctor for again providing our club with JPS cables to demo. As well as Fritz for the speakers.
  It is more important than ever to get our demo disc done. When we have a disc that all are familiar with on their system a demo using that disc will be more affective in dicerning any differences on the system at hand. A conatant is needed to have more control of the demo.
  Secondly I recco a committee be formed to set up a procedure for demomstrating future components and cables. The host can then follow such again more control.
   My choices would be Roy, Mel, Mark and myself.  We wpould write up the procedure for all demos. We can cunduct blind tests, double blind tests and measure the component as well [ Mel, Mark] if desired. We should also open the component for a look and take some photos to post here . A full description of design philosophy as well as specs, features and parts quality should all be provided by the manf. If the Manf. cannot attend then a spokesperson [ ME] can present the info and start off the demo.
  In all fairness to the generous manfs' and dealers we owe it to them to provide and conduct a well controlled demo of such. So far so good but some improvement is warranted IMO.
 next up is Mels home in june.
  We would love to hear a high powered tube amp withe Carver speakers. That would prove very interesting as ol Mel is a SS type of guy. Maybe the Audio Research DR 250 servo Mk2 wopuld fit the bill. If anyone has another high powered tubed wonder chime in. Or a class "A" CDP or DAC would be interesting as well.
  Maybe our own nutty professors [ Mark, mystery audio] new preamp and speakers will convince the none SS crowd otherwise. We shall see.

charles
  
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 06:59:14 AM by rollo »
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Offline StereoNut

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2010, 05:44:28 AM »
Thanks for the post, Jim.

For clarification to all, the order we listened to speaker cables was as follows:

#1 - JPS Superconductor "Q"'s
#2 - Monster cable "home-brews"
#3 - Audio Art SC-5SE's
#4 - Harmonic Technologies (sorry, I don't know the model. These were a last minute entry.)

Grant, if you happen to read this, please post the model of your HT's for everyone, so we know what we listened to.

As far as speakers go, I am sure that no one needs a reminder of "which were which", considering one pair were bookshelves and the other floorstanders.  ;)

Thanks again!
SN

P.S. to Jim - Re: the soldiering offer.  I think I'll leave any upgrades on my speakers to Albert @ V.S.A.  Oh, the amp was recently serviced, so we're good there too!
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2010, 05:59:55 AM »
   We would love to hear a high powered tube amp withe Carver speakers. That would prove very interesting as ol Mel is a SS type of guy. Maybe the Audio Research DR 250 servo Mk2 wopuld fit the bill.

Great idea. Now all we need to find is a club member with a crane or a forklift to get the D-250 into Mel's living room.   :lol:
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Offline rollo

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2010, 06:28:51 AM »
 At 175 pounds oh yeah baby. 32 tubes. including 20 6550s. You want tubes we have tubes. Oh Mellie are ya listening ?  :pop aa

charles
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Offline Lissnr

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2010, 08:15:18 PM »
Hi guys, I wanted to add my thanks to Bill for hosting a very enjoyable meeting last week. Thanks also to Paul for the Fritz speaker demo as I found them to be attractive and seemingly well built bookshelf speakers with a rather big-for-their size sound.... an attribute many look for in a bookshelf. I'm also an advocate of dual pairs of binding posts for bi-wiring or bi-amping which this speaker did feature.
 As for the speaker cable 'shoot-out' I was glad to catch most of it. Unfortunately at the very beginning I was yapping away in the other room for much of the first cable session though I did manage to grab an off-axis side spot for a few minutes. From this less than ideal position I did notice a "pleasant and musical" presentation from the system...I remember good detail without apparent etch with perhaps just a bit of a lightweight tonal balance. Again, considering I never got to the sweet spot I couldn't assess any image focus, soundstaging, etc. but as I said, it seemed to be doing well from my limited perspective.
 Once I realized this cable  swap was proceeding was when I managed to acquire an upgraded seating position (while cable swap personnel went to work) and from a much more front-view (though still off-centered perspective) I was ready for my next cable assessment.Unfortunately, my conclusion about cables #2, as have already been shared on this forum, was that at less than $100 these cables would be perfectly suited to any mass market PC Richard/Best Buy purchased system with no ties or aspirations to any resemblance to the high end. These "wires" transferred the signal to the speakers and in so doing, made a perfect case for anyone who has ever had any doubts before of whether differences in speaker cable is actually noticeable...In other words there are no "non-believers" to this fact of the audio world if they were present during that demonstration. Hey Bill, in all honesty it was a great idea, for all the reasons you stated: wouldn't it be cool if it did actually turn out to be even competitive with the other cables at such a low price? Well worth the try and I'm sure you may still be able to use them in some kind of bombastic overblown subwoofer-boosted surround-soundy setup someday where the rear speakers are thumping away and bass-heavy helicopter blades are flying over your head... perfect for that!
 Meanwhile, back to the show. I finally managed to upgrade my listening position to 'pretty darn good' as i wiggled into just one spot away from "THE SPOT" (Let's be honest here guys... to my ears I don't care how room friendly your particular speakers are or room set up is,  there will always only be one IDEAL spot to sit in if you really want to hear all of a systems attributes).Perhaps partially because they were the first pair I was able to listen to from a good perspective,( besides #2), it should come as no surprise that these were now the best sounding to me. I really would have loved to go back to the #1s (JPS) after finishing with the #3's, as that would have been a good comparison but maybe next time I'll spend more time in the music room right from the beginning, and less discussing audio fact/fiction/theory etc with the others around the food table. So #3 sounded good. I really wish I had actually taken notes of my listening impressions... I have to use an almost one-week-old memory right now and to be truly fair this should certainly be kept in mind. Note another disclosure, even though I have spent some time with Bill fairly recently enjoying his system I am still not especially familiar with all its characteristics [both yay and nay]. That said, I liked what I heard under all the less than ideal circumstances [of crowds and background conversations]... Bill's VS speakers are pretty widely spaced and therefore produce a nice wide stage ...they also produce a lively, detailed and energetic pace, that is, the "PRAT" is certainly evident here and these speaker cables seemed to keep these characteristics flowing. I sensed good image placement and more than a hint of depth trying to come through in what is a somewhat less than ideal placement of his rather large panel TV stationed directly between and only slightly behind the speaker plane. TV notwithstanding, it is a nicely accommodating room size for his equipment. When I mentioned before a somewhat 'lightweight' balance to the sound of cables #1 I am again going to add that comment to these #3 and to the same extent as the other ones... this is not as much a criticism as it is simply a reflection of my personal perception due to my own preferred sound and I'll explain it here.
I like the sound of tubes in a system because if I had to choose between absolute truth and just a touch of 'glow'... I find a little on the warm side is not only more natural to me, but simply more pleasant to my ear. Having said that, I have been living with tube equipment and the associated cabling which sides with the richer end of the scale. I admit it.
 This brings me to the fourth and final speaker cable of the night's trials, the last-minute and unsuspected entry #4. These are my Harmonic Technology Pro 11's. They are actually my spare 'back-up' set of cables I keep available for just-in-case or 'just because' situations. My primary cables are actually Harmonic Tech's  Pro 9 bi-wires which are essentially a bi-wired version of the 11's and have been a mainstay in my system for the better part of the last 10 years or so. Other cables swap in and out but I always seem to come back to these and this has been with at least 4 different speaker systems of disparate personalities (Audio Physic, Silverline, and 2 different models of Apogee full range ribbons: my previous Mini Grands and currently my Duetta Signatures) so the HT cables are a consistent linking "voice" portraying the sum of each system's parts. Suffice to say, I know them well.
 For this final audition (#4) I managed to get the 2nd best seat in the room... not quite in THE sweetspot of the listening couch but perhaps in some ways almost as good, if not in some way better: on the floor directly in front of the couch. I'll take it, I said to myself, because I was intent on hearing how my contribution was going to fare against the rest. BTW: for the record, you can currently find HT Pro 11's at the Cable Co, for example, at a little over $400 for a 6' pair, and around $75 per additional foot after that (the pair I had on hand were 10' and therefore somewhere around the $700 price point). By now I'm sure, as we've discussed before, there is no doubt about how different speaker cables can be. When Bill keyed up that sample track for the 4th and final time, this time into my HT Pro 11's there was no mistaking in my ears that I was hearing my cables. I felt the difference between these and all 3 of the others was nothing short of startling. Instant and most noticeable effect was the tremendous amount of richness and warm meat-on-the-bones feeling of organic presence to the music. It had a naturalness to it I had not experienced before that evening... Soundstage width was essentially the same but the 3 dimensional palpability and presence of the performers was greatly enhanced... the venue took on a more laid-back perspective but only in regard to finally adding some honest depth to the stage... performers were now behind the tv, at least the centrally located ones, but I did not feel the urge to TRY and listen harder to hear into it, it all just seemed to take the proper natural 3D perspective of a more live event. Bass was full, midrange was wonderful, especially on voices, and the top end retained enough detail such that you never felt you were missing anything if you actually listened for it... I suspect there could be those who may argue the top didn't have all the detail they had heard before? but I'd be willing to say "live with it for awhile" before you truly make such a claim... Personally, I think the added richness was a fantastic complement to the previously assessed "highly resolving" characteristics of Bill's system... I could go on but I guess I've made my preference known, and again, with the aforementioned explanations.
  Suffice to say I enjoyed the evening very much and am quite grateful again to Bill of course, Paul, Mel for helping set-up the cables and swaps, and especially to the dealers who lent the 2 samples for evaluation...it was truly "ear-opening" and a lot of fun. I hope we can do it again, perhaps with some more models or whatever sounds interesting, and next time: I'm bringing my little note-book.
  Looking forward to the next meet at Mel's!

Offline tmazz

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2010, 08:47:30 PM »
At 175 pounds oh yeah baby. 32 tubes. including 20 6550s. You want tubes we have tubes.

And if you try to lift a 175 lb piece of equipment you will also have a hernia.    [-X

Take it from one who knows first hand.  :duh

But like they say, nothin for nothin.  [-(
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Offline StereoNut

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2010, 08:58:27 PM »
Hey Grant

Nice post!  :thumb:

Of course, I am glad that you had a good time Friday night at our Syndrome meeting.  It's also very nice to see such a detailed post about your experience during the portion of the meeting that you actually got a decent listening seat for.  I plan on getting more listening time in with your HT cables over this weekend (hopefully?) and eventually get my QED's back into the "mix" as a comparison to all the others, with the obvious exclusion of the home-brew Monsters.  Although, one point you made about the Monster wire was something I never really thought of in my reasons to include it... it did prove to all of the "non-believers" that wire DOES make a difference; whether it's for good or for bad! :)

Thanks for your comments on the meeting and the kind words about my system.

SN
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 09:00:53 PM by StereoNut »
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2010, 09:10:47 PM »
... it did prove to all of the "non-believers" that wire DOES make a difference...

You mean I'm not crazy? 8-[
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Offline StereoNut

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2010, 04:49:07 AM »
Quote
You mean I'm not crazy? 8-[

Uhmmnnn....

I wouldn't necessarily go that far!  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

SN
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 04:50:48 AM by StereoNut »
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
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• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Offline tmazz

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2010, 08:04:18 AM »
Quote
You mean I'm not crazy? 8-[

Uhmmnnn....

I wouldn't necessarily go that far!  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

SN

Always remember, normal people are just people you don't know that well yet. :roll:
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline rollo

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Re: Syndrome Meeting - May 21st. 2010
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2010, 07:02:36 AM »
  Excellent post Grant. Great to see your participation here.


charles
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