300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?

[sleepyguy24]

Hey everyone.

I know Bill B has got the Harmonia 300B based Tube Buffer that really looks amazing. That got me curious about 300B stuff. I was just looking around and I stumbled upon the Bottlehead BeePre 300B preamp.

http://bottlehead.com/product/beepre-300b-preamplifier-kit/



It looks pretty cool but I'm just curious how do these 300B type preamps sound. I was wondering if anyone here has heard the BeePre or maybe other 300B type preamps. I'm new to tube stuff so a 300B preamp is foreign to me. I've only seen   the 300B tube used in amps. How do the 300B based tube preamps sound?

For kicks I priced a Bottlehead BeePre and the cost to buy it and have the Bottlehead expert assemble and it came up to over $2k. No go for me anytime soon. I still owe SN money for his EEMM DAC.

Thanks in advance.

[Response Audio]

If you get the chance to hear one, I highly recommend it. Then again, the sound may not be for you. If you love 300Bs, you'll love a 300B preamp. My prototype 300B buffer will never leave my system (when I get it back ).

 We (Purity) will have one maybe later this year but will not be inexpensive. I have had a prototype for a while but other products took priority.

The Bottlehead will be your most affordable option and from what I hear, its a nice preamp. The Ming-Da 300B pre also sounds really good but then you have to deal with quality issues and no US representation. I modified a few of these a couple years back but now nobody in the US represents them.

Regardless of what you may end up with down the road, keep in mind that your choice of 300B tubes will have a big influence on the sound.

[steve]

Hey everyone.

I know Bill B has got the Harmonia 300B based Tube Buffer that really looks amazing. That got me curious about 300B stuff. I was just looking around and I stumbled upon the Bottlehead BeePre 300B preamp.

http://bottlehead.com/product/beepre-300b-preamplifier-kit/



It looks pretty cool but I'm just curious how do these 300B type preamps sound. I was wondering if anyone here has heard the BeePre or maybe other 300B type preamps. I'm new to tube stuff so a 300B preamp is foreign to me. I've only seen   the 300B tube used in amps. How do the 300B based tube preamps sound?

For kicks I priced a Bottlehead BeePre and the cost to buy it and have the Bottlehead expert assemble and it came up to over $2k. No go for me anytime soon. I still owe SN money for his EEMM DAC.

Thanks in advance.

I agree with Bill. If you like the sound of a 300b, you might like it. However, if your tastes are for total accuracy in to out representation, it will not be.

Cheers.

[topround]

I think DHT is to die for
no 6dj8 tube will ever approach what a DHT can do, just supremely musical when done right.
It has little to with circuit either, like a 4 cylinder racing an 8 cylinder.
IS DHT accurate? probably not, will they make you happy? Absolutely

Bravo for Bottlehead pushing the envelope!

Accuracy is a word, goosebumps are what matter, emotion matters, we are deciphering music not digital code

[Response Audio]

I for one really find the 300B used as a "signal tube" to be very enjoyable. Dont think of a 300B preamp in the same terms as a 300B amp matched with ineffecient speakers. Dynamic control is not an issue as the tube is not driving a loudspeaker.

We have both a 300B buffer as well as a hybrid Class D amp with a 300B as the input stage. We loved the idea of using the 300B as an output stage for most any source component. Ever hear a CD player or DAC with a 300B output? How about the outputs from a Direct TV cable box.  We considered releasing the 300B preamp but decided to release the more unique products first as nobody has ever done either of these before and there are a couple 300B pres on the market already.


After playing around with various products using the 300B in applications other than a power tube, I can only recommend you try to audition one of the 300B preamps. From what I have seen, the Bottlehead seems to be the safest bet and most affordable way of doing this. If you are looking for an organic, full bodied presentation, you may never look back.

Hopefully someone here will get a chance to hear the Bottlehead and report back.

[topround]

Just couple it with Jupiter copper caps and all will be well!

[sleepyguy24]

Thanks everyone for their input. If a Bottlehead BeePre appears on the used market and I have the money for it I'll let you know my thoughts on it. I do like accuracy and detail when it comes to music.

Stupid question. DHT means Dual Heated Triode?

[Response Audio]

Direct Heated Triode

[sleepyguy24]

Direct Heated Triode

Good to know. Thanks for the prompt reply.

[steve]

I think DHT is to die for
no 6dj8 tube will ever approach what a DHT can do, just supremely musical when done right.
It has little to with circuit either, like a 4 cylinder racing an 8 cylinder.
IS DHT accurate? probably not, will they make you happy? Absolutely

Bravo for Bottlehead pushing the envelope!

Accuracy is a word, goosebumps are what matter, emotion matters, we are deciphering music not digital code

First, I am not manufacturing anymore. And accuracy creates goose bumps because I like listening to live instruments, but as they say, to each his own.

I have heard both types many many times, as I have been designing for 45-50 years. Believe me, a 300b or 45 is no match for a properly designed E88cc/6dj8, for instance, as I have designed.

Customers have already compared my 11A line preamp to 45 and 300b preamps, and including Shindo's and my 11A was chosen every time. Obviously your reference is not the same as mine, which is not your fault because 99 plus % of designers produce inferior quality, thin sounding components.  

Unfortunately virtually no one understands how to design, instead simply copying crappy older designs and not understanding the limitations of those designs.

What makes the 300b sound better in those poorer, thin sounding designs (with small coupling caps) is the high amounts of low order distortion products which gives the impression of harmonically rich. Unfortunately, the dht tube's harmonics do not change with different instruments, so an in-accurate tonality for each instrument is created. It creates an artificial coloration.

Then when one chooses a speaker or source, their designs needs to be compromised in an attempt to compensate for the dht.
Best, natural synergy is created when there are a minimum of sonic distractions produced from each component.

Another problem with dhts (including SETs) is the Mu, or gain, and so the number of stages, chokes, and possibly multiple transformers used. Everything, including additional stages influences and degrades the sound if not designed correctly.

Another, the power supplies are very poorly designed.
Another, the soundstage is almost always limited.

There are more problems, but the 4 cyclinder engine is definitely the dht, while the 8 cyclinder is the E88cc/6dj8.

I don't touch any dhts, I am way beyond them. It is too bad we do not have real designers/engineers anymore who understand the designs and wish to improve audio. Instead we get copycats pushing the same old designs with different cosmetics and expensive tubes.

But as I mentioned earlier, to each his own, especially among the poor designs. Some like colorations and not the real natural thing. Bottlehead is good for those who wish to perform personal experiments.

Last thing is that when a system is approaching super good, one must go vertical. By that I mean one must actually design/build and match the pre, amp, and speaker. That is when the sound really becomes natural and wonderful. Otherwise one is simply doing patch work with different brands.

Cheers
Steve

[Triode Pete]

I think DHT is to die for
no 6dj8 tube will ever approach what a DHT can do, just supremely musical when done right.
It has little to with circuit either, like a 4 cylinder racing an 8 cylinder.
IS DHT accurate? probably not, will they make you happy? Absolutely

Bravo for Bottlehead pushing the envelope!

Accuracy is a word, goosebumps are what matter, emotion matters, we are deciphering music not digital code

First, I am not manufacturing anymore. And accuracy creates goose bumps because I like listening to live instruments, but as they say, to each his own.

I have heard both types many many times, as I have been designing for 45-50 years. Believe me, a 300b or 45 is no match for a properly designed E88cc/6dj8, for instance, as I have designed.

Customers have already compared my 11A line preamp to 45 and 300b preamps, and including Shindo's and my 11A was chosen every time. Obviously your reference is not the same as mine, which is not your fault because 99 plus % of designers produce inferior quality, thin sounding components.  

Unfortunately virtually no one understands how to design, instead simply copying crappy older designs and not understanding the limitations of those designs.

What makes the 300b sound better in those poorer, thin sounding designs (with small coupling caps) is the high amounts of low order distortion products which gives the impression of harmonically rich. Unfortunately, the dht tube's harmonics do not change with different instruments, so an in-accurate tonality for each instrument is created. It creates an artificial coloration.

Then when one chooses a speaker or source, their designs needs to be compromised in an attempt to compensate for the dht.
Best, natural synergy is created when there are a minimum of sonic distractions produced from each component.

Another problem with dhts (including SETs) is the Mu, or gain, and so the number of stages, chokes, and possibly multiple transformers used. Everything, including additional stages influences and degrades the sound if not designed correctly.

Another, the power supplies are very poorly designed.
Another, the soundstage is almost always limited.

There are more problems, but the 4 cyclinder engine is definitely the dht, while the 8 cyclinder is the E88cc/6dj8.

I don't touch any dhts, I am way beyond them. It is too bad we do not have real designers/engineers anymore who understand the designs and wish to improve audio. Instead we get copycats pushing the same old designs with different cosmetics and expensive tubes.

But as I mentioned earlier, to each his own, especially among the poor designs. Some like colorations and not the real natural thing. Bottlehead is good for those who wish to perform personal experiments.

Last thing is that when a system is approaching super good, one must go vertical. By that I mean one must actually design/build and match the pre, amp, and speaker. That is when the sound really becomes natural and wonderful. Otherwise one is simply doing patch work with different brands.

Cheers
Steve

Steve,
I wholeheartedly agree with you on the "Design" aspect of your post!

Yes, power supplies are critical. I think it is the one of the most critical parts of the design (if not the most important) for both preamplifiers & especially amplifiers!

However, DHT's are where it's at for sonic purity. Perhaps you never heard a well designed SET or listened to one with mismatched (un-synergistic) components & inefficient speakers that gives you that impression...

My $0.02,
Pete

[richidoo]

Great post Steve. I am sad to hear that you are not manufacturing anymore. But I hope that leaves you more time to enjoy the hobby.

Manley makes a 300B preamp. It is fun to listen to, and designed by a good engineer, Mitch Margolis. But I would still prefer 6922 for preamp. In the early stages of the signal chain you need low distortion, high current actives.

There are some 300B power amps that are well engineered, but 300B can only do so much. You have to accommodate its limitations then you can benefit from its strengths.

[Response Audio]

Interesting thread this is turning into. I think all opinions are valid. Regarding DHTs, I agree with Steve that these are not the first choice when pure accuracy is what we want. On the other hand, I absolutely love the presentation when 300Bs are in the mix. All my personal listening is now done with a 300B buffer in system.

I am also a big fan of SET amplification. I know it's not for everybody but it's what I like. I'm not saying I don't like other topologies and in fact have my own hybrid amplifiers but one thing is for sure....... nobody in this hobby of ours will ever agree on just one. That's why it's a hobby. Just like designers all have their own preferences. As a designer, I can appreciate all types out there but have my own ideas when it comes to my products.

 I also agree that the 6922 family IS a great choice which is why I have have gone with this family of tubes in my preamps. My preferences for linestage circuits are the 12AU7 or 6922 tube types but also like what I hear from a well thought out and implemented  DHT linestage design.

Power supplies? Extremely important but no more or less important than the rest of the circuit. It's the design as a whole that matters. You can't have one without the other. An excellent power supply does nothing for an inferior circuit design and vise versa. I hate seeing people debate over which part of a design is more important. Doesn't make sense to me.

[steve]

However, DHT's are where it's at for sonic purity. Perhaps you never heard a well designed SET or listened to one with mismatched (un-synergistic) components & inefficient speakers that gives you that impression...

Your comment does not apply as I have heard the best names, including Shindo, and other brands many times all with proper sources, speakers etc. In fact I have the advantage of hearing many many, while you have not had the advantage of hearing mine or others. That does give me an "unfair" advantage. And forget diyers.

It is apparent, not your fault, that your paradyme is not what it should be due to the poor designs of nearly all analog components, both dhts and idhts. Very very few are very accurate and natural.

One important point. Please do not claim that others, especially myself, cannot improve designs and overall systems. That is a very poor assumption.

There are a few points that need addressing.

1) Since your paradyme is so negatively influenced by so many poor designs, you cannot make a descent comparison, especially to mine. The best systems are going to be vertical, which few do, by the way.

2) Even the best dht/idht SET designs have inherent flaws, and with dhts/300bs additional inherent physical design problems exist.

3) Even if one could design a near perfect SET, one still has the problem of the DHT/IDHT HD/IMD distortions
messing up the sound. For instance, for 8 watts out from 300b, HD at 15%, the IMD is an astounding 48%. At 5% HD, IMD is around 16%.

So one must run well below max power, low spl of the amp to keep these two types of distortion low. And the IMD makes it much tougher to play complex music without degradation.

Also only at much below max power out/low levels is the  damping factor relatively constant.

Of course, preamps have no such problems unless an output transformer is used, with possible ringing problems. Then one needs or has a friend with a scope.

4) Because of the nature of SETs, the damping factor varies, and is related to output power/signal level but only over 1/2 cycle, 1/2 movement of the cone. Damping varies from calculated number around idle current to zero at the tube's cutoff. Not only woofer, but also mid/tweeter controls are affected.

We have not even begun to discuss the accurate/natural parts crisis, the good parts are becoming extinct due to improper testing methods and results propagated as fact on various forums. I cannot even special order some parts anymore.

The question that is really pertinent, besides correcting design flaws, is how are components suppose to improve when one cannot obtain the best "sounding" parts?

I realize there is a lot of hype out there, but it is because of such poor designs using all types of tubes. The truly transparent, accurate, natural comes from the lowest distortion, all types of distortions, designs.

As Bill mentions, the entire design is important. However, the power supply always seems to be lacking in proper design.

Thanks Rich. If I posted all the limitations of an entire design, well.....

Cheers
Steve

[Triode Pete]

However, DHT's are where it's at for sonic purity. Perhaps you never heard a well designed SET or listened to one with mismatched (un-synergistic) components & inefficient speakers that gives you that impression...

Your comment does not apply as I have heard the best names, including Shindo, and other brands many times all with proper sources, speakers etc. In fact I have the advantage of hearing many many, while you have not had the advantage of hearing mine or others. That does give me an "unfair" advantage. And forget diyers.

It is apparent, not your fault, that your paradyme is not what it should be due to the poor designs of nearly all analog components, both dhts and idhts. Very very few are very accurate and natural.

One important point. Please do not claim that others, especially myself, cannot improve designs and overall systems. That is a very poor assumption.

There are a few points that need addressing.

1) Since your paradyme is so negatively influenced by so many poor designs, you cannot make a descent comparison, especially to mine. The best systems are going to be vertical, which few do, by the way.

2) Even the best dht/idht SET designs have inherent flaws, and with dhts/300bs additional inherent physical design problems exist.

3) Even if one could design a near perfect SET, one still has the problem of the DHT/IDHT HD/IMD distortions
messing up the sound. So one must run well below max power, spl low of the amp. It is much tougher to play complex music without degradation.

Also only at much below max power out/low levels is the  damping factor relatively constant.

Of course, preamps have no such problems unless an output transformer is used, with possible ringing problems. Then one needs or has a friend with a scope.

4) Because of the nature of SETs, the damping factor varies, and is related to output power/signal level but only over 1/2 cycle, 1/2 movement of the cone. Damping varies from calculated number around idle current to zero at the tube's cutoff. Not only woofer, but also mid/tweeter controls are affected.

We have not even begun to discuss the accurate/natural parts crisis, the good parts are becoming extinct due to improper testing methods and results propagated as fact on various forums. I cannot even special order some parts anymore.

The question that is really pertinent, besides correcting design flaws, is how are components suppose to improve when one cannot obtain the best "sounding" parts?

Cheers
Steve

Geez, Steve, a bit opinionated, eh? How do you know what I've heard & not heard??? How do you know??? I have heard your gear before...

I believe my current SET amp has broken every PARADIGM associated with SET amps... except musicality!

Too bad you're not making "state of the art" gear any more...

Cheers,
Pete