Author Topic: A/B speaker selector and speaker wire brand uniformity. A necessity?  (Read 3688 times)

Offline sleepyguy24

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 904
Hi everyone

I'm in need of help again. The boss if has laid down the law and one set of my speakers has to go. This is now creating a situation where I have one pair of speakers and 2 amps to choose from to power them. Sorry if this is in the wrong place. I didn't know if I should put this in the cabling section or the amp section.

I'm going to be using a modified Niles Audio DPS-1 selector that now has binding posts. Before all this one amp used 10 ft DH Labs speaker wire and the other amp had a Kimber Kable 8TC speaker wire going to the speaker it was connected too.
Now with the DPS-1 both my amps will be plugged into it and another set of speaker wire to the speakers. This whole situation has been bugging me for a bit. I'm planning to use the Kimber Kable 8TC wire from the DPS-1 output to my KEF 104/2 speakers as this cable with the other gear in my system sounded the best with the KEFs previously.

I'm wondering what do cable wise from both amps to the Niles DPS-1.

In the past when anyone has used a selector did you use the same cabling throughout or did you use one set of cable for one amp and another cable for the other amp?

If you used different cables to the selector did it impact the sound? I keep wondering if the cabling from the selector matters as much since the final cable that will be used is the Kimber Kable 8TC.

Right now in my house I have a lot of Belden 5200UE alarm wire that I believe I could use for speaker wire. I would just make pairs in the length I need. The alternative would be I would use the DH Labs for one amp and then use the Belden 5200ue wires for the other amp. The DH Labs speaker wire is 10ft long and I would have a lot of excess to coil.

I'm trying to figure out what to do and hopefully limit the buying and trying. The amps are heavy and I want to minimize the constant re-connecting and testing as it would involve moving them in and out of the cabinet to do so. Just looking for some guidance as I feel like my nervosa is kicking in about the speaker wires from amp to the DPS-1.

Thanks in advance.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144


For those following along the DPS-1 is a speaker level source switch. It is not a speaker switch. (Although it seems that it would work as speaker switch too?) So the 2 different power amps (one for hifi, one for HT) feed the switch, which connects one pair of speakers to one or the other of the amps.
http://www.amazon.com/Niles-Audio-DPS-1/dp/B00006HOFR

The two amps can have different speaker cables. Since you will never use both amps at the same time it doesn't matter the sonic differences between the cables. The amps are different anyway, right?

If the two amps are the same and you want both DPS-1 switch positions to sound the same, then use the same cables from amps to the switch.

Assuming that the amps and DPS-1 are close to each other, you could cut the DHLabs in half and use the 5 footers to connect the amps to the DPS-1. DHLabs could do a clean job of that for you.

Most speaker level switches will arc if switched with signal moving through. So inspect the contacts and clean if possible.  There is always gonna be some loss of signal integrity you have to accept with the added temporary contacts of switch relays and extra binding posts. No way to avoid the source impedance rising and correspondingly some damping is lost (bass impact.) So...

... Why not sell the extra amp also, and use a low level switch to change source signals to the one amp? The sound quality of signal switch will be better than the speaker level switch. You could buy a source switch box or just make one for $50, then sell the Niles too.

The Belden 5200UE wire is 16 gage 2 conductor stranded with all vinyl insulation and jacket. I think it is not suitable for high end audio. I have used 12ga RCA lamp cord style speaker wire from Home Depot. You can't imagine how bad it sounded compared to audiophile quality wire. 16 gage is pretty small for anything over 50W, imo. But it will work in a pinch. You could braid 3 lengths together and connect the ends to make a larger gage wire. I have seen some DIY speaker cable articles that do that.

The other thing is you can make some DIY speaker cables, like these, or buy some from Blue Jeans Cables. They are reasonable cost, very high quality construction and materials even if they may not sound as good as more expensive wires. I think that the speaker level switch in the path would prevent you from getting the full potential from more expensive hifi cables.

Offline sleepyguy24

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 904
Hi Rich

Thanks for taking the time out to reply to my inquiry in such depth.

Quote
The two amps can have different speaker cables. Since you will never use both amps at the same time it doesn't matter the sonic differences between the cables. The amps are different anyway, right?

Correct. This is one of those  :duh moments again. Both amps are different and definitely both amps will not be on at the same time. What you said about arcing scares the crap out of me. At the time I was thinking uniform make all the speaker wire going into the DPS-1 uniform to minimize any variables but then I'm also adding in the DPS-1 which is a big variable to this whole equation.

Quote
Assuming that the amps and DPS-1 are close to each other, you could cut the DHLabs in half and use the 5 footers to connect the amps to the DPS-1. DHLabs could do a clean job of that for you.

Another  :duh  moment. I was thinking about keeping the DH Labs cables as is for re-sale but I do like them so I'm strongly considering now cutting them in 1/2.

Quote
There is always gonna be some loss of signal integrity you have to accept with the added temporary contacts of switch relays and extra binding posts. No way to avoid the source impedance rising and correspondingly some damping is lost (bass impact.) So...

Thanks for pointing this out. Parts of this slipped by me. Especially about source impedance and damping loss. I will definitely be on the look out for that.

Quote
... Why not sell the extra amp also, and use a low level switch to change source signals to the one amp? The sound quality of signal switch will be better than the speaker level switch. You could buy a source switch box or just make one for $50, then sell the Niles too.

Normally I would but the extra amp (Sumo Nine rebuilt by Mike Bettinger) I'm kind of attached too. Fan noise and all it sounds really nice with any of the speakers I have. I'd only sell it if there was a dire need. That and the monetary hit I would take on it would be too much.

Quote
The Belden 5200UE wire is 16 gage 2 conductor stranded with all vinyl insulation and jacket. I think it is not suitable for high end audio. I have used 12ga RCA lamp cord style speaker wire from Home Depot. You can't imagine how bad it sounded compared to audiophile quality wire. 16 gage is pretty small for anything over 50W, imo. But it will work in a pinch. You could braid 3 lengths together and connect the ends to make a larger gage wire. I have seen some DIY speaker cable articles that do that.

The thought of using the Belden 5200UE type cables is an inspiration from Barry in NJ. I believe he used brown jacketed 5 conductor alarm wire from Home Depot with his Gallos and got really good results. That and I have rolls of the Belden 5200UE from a basement reno too. Trying to use what I've got rather than spend more money but the thought of even more sonic degradation is making me think twice. I remember one audio enthusiasts mantra on expensive wiring. Spend once; cry once.

Quote
The other thing is you can make some DIY speaker cables, like these, or buy some from Blue Jeans Cables. They are reasonable cost, very high quality construction and materials even if they may not sound as good as more expensive wires. I think that the speaker level switch in the path would prevent you from getting the full potential from more expensive hifi cables.

I'm actually pricing stuff on BJC site now. I use the BJC 10 White in my HT application with good results. I may now have to use them again. I'm going to keep the cabling costs from amps to selector within reason. I agree I won't get full potential from more expensive hifi cables my worry now is if I use cheaper cable I'm going to have more of a loss in sound.

Again Rich many thanks for the guidance.
 

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Arcing: don't worry about it. The box is rated for 300W, so there is no safety issue. The arc can only happen when there is signal going through it. If you switch when there is a 20V signal then it will arc. There can be no arc in the relay if you  stop the signal before switching. :D  But over time, it does tend to get switched with a signal, so the relay contacts can build up some pitting, which increase resistance further  and degrades the sound quality. Most DIY speaker switchers use relays that are not rated to SWITCH the kind of voltage that blind AB comparisons demand. They can carry, but not switch. The Niles user manual should make a recommendation on proper use and probably has very tough relays.

A simple, incomplete explanation is that damping factor is the ratio of load impedance (aka input impedance) to source impedance (aka output impedance.) 8 ohm speaker, 0.01ohm amp, makes damping factor of 800. 4 ohms speaker and 2 ohms tube amp makes damping factor of 2, big difference, and this partly explains why the sound is so different, but there is a lot more to the story. For now, think higher damping enhances control of the source over the load in equipment designed to work that way, which is 99.999% of all commercial gear.  This is called voltage drive, and here electrical damping is very important. Tighter bass, clearer treble, etc. There are drawbacks to this ubiquitous system, but let's save that (current drive and zero damping) for another thread.  So back on topic... when you add resistive elements to the circuit, like relay contacts in the Niles switch, or binding posts for the extra length of speaker wire, you are reducing the damping factor between amp and speaker because the source impedance is no longer 0.01ohms, it is 0.01 ohms plus the added resistance of the temporary contacts. Non-soldered contacts always add resistance. The sound quality will change to reflect the added source resistance (impedance.) Same as if you added a resistor to your speaker cables or left the posts loose. This is why you sometimes see wise reviewers and other commentators ridicule the extreme low output impedance specs of class D amplifiers, 0.0001ohms, etc. Once you connect them to a real circuit the output impedance is immediately multiplied hundred of times. But people like the sound of digital amps for precisely this reason, of invincible control top to bottom due to the very high damping factor. Some people don't like it, they prefer lower damping and tube amps. "High-end" wires and connectors with very low resistance, silver contact enhancers, solid copper binding posts, rhodium plating to prevent oxidation, they are all for reducing resistance and increasing  damping factor.

Experiment with the switch in and out of the circuit, you will hear difference and decide for yourself if it's worth the loss of damping. But infinite damping is not "Teh Answer(tm)"... People choose tube amps for good reason, many people like less damping. For HT high damping is good for scary transients and LF tonal texture, but for beautiful lady vocals and late night piano sonatas, less damping can be very nice. Choose your poison. Somewhere in the middle is where most of us land, or like rollo says, use two amps. Hey guess what, you got two amps!  :thumb:  "I Like it" is the best reason to keep the Sumo!

Don't let me discourage you from having fun trying DIY speaker cables with the belden alarm wire. You have a gut about it, so follow it. I use 40 foot 16/2 speaker wire to my patio speakers and it is very satisfying, I think due to the lower damping factor of the long thin wires.  Price is right so give it a try! I am a bit of a wire snob since hometheaterdoc ruined me with expensive wire ;) so you have to take my rants with a grain of salt, it's just opinion. Let us know how it works out.

One thing you could do to reduce the resistance of the belden due to the thin wire, is combining several lengths of the belden together in parallel. 4 lengths combined into one cable, tying all the + together and all the - together to make the gage bigger. Braiding them supposedly benefits things too, although I don't know what braid is good or if worth the effort but it forms a rope that's easier to route.  With 4 lengths in parallel you have 4 times less resistance.  Just make sure you keep the pos and negs separate.
See ya sleepy
Rich