AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: BrentoRudra on July 11, 2011, 08:17:10 AM
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Once again adventures with Mr. Zen. Evidently he had a hand in the Adcom designs, beginning with the GFA-555.
I have an old GFA-535 which somebody modded and at one point was my reference with a smalller system. I used Kef Q-80 speakers, an Audiolab preamp (I forget which), Rotel RCD-855 disc player. Contentment. I knew there was MORE, and more is always better, but when I was rational I reallly was content with this rig. It had the same kind of synergy as my current Conrad Johnson/Rotel RB 991 amp/Vandersteen 2ce. Lookng at it, I realize I've simply made a jump over the years to a quality tube preamp, the always reliabe Rotel amps of the 90s, and of course Vandersteen speakers which, for me, are the end of the line.
Even so. I'm seriously looking at Pass designs within my range (Adcom, Nakamichi Stasis) beause there is a certain moreness of what I like to them.
Any thoughts. For example the Adcom GFA-555 is straight out Mr. Zen. So are the Nakamichi Stasis amps. The 555 and the Nak PA-7 both have the 200 watts of the Rotel, giving me the headroom I like, and that additional something that Pass adds to things.
Then there is the compromise of the GFA-545, which is up in two places for $200. I've heard good things about this one, too, and it's in my comfort zone.
Say, tell, share. Show me a rose or leave me alone.
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This is right up my alley: upper mid-fi from the late '80's.
I managed a hi-fi store in New Jersey during the late '80's and Adcom was one of our bread-and -butter lines. I am a big fan of the GFA-555 as it is a truly good sounding amp at a very moderate price. Our original selling price for the three Adcom amps, the 535, 545 and 555 was $349, $499 and $749 respectively.
Of the three, I liked the 545 least. They all had the same character and sound quality, but I felt that the 545 offered the least value. I suggested to customers that they either stay with the 60WPC 535 or jump up to the 200WPC 555.
I have always been a fan of Pass designs. I love the Threshold and Pass lines, high dollar, but delicious.
Yet, when it came time to buy my own upper mid-fi amp, instead of Adcom, I chose a B&K ST202 plus, which I still use. B&K made three amps as well and they competed directly for the same business as Adcom. Their ST140 was rated at 105WPC and sold for $499 and frankly kicked the 545's butt. They also made two versions of the ST202, with one being called the ST202plus. Both ST202's sold for around $700. According to B&K, the 202 was designed to drive lower impedance speakers, like 4 ohm Infinity or basic planar type speakers. The 202plus was designed for speakers with 8 ohm impedance or higher. I own B&W 802's which are a nice comfortable 8 ohms, so I chose the 202plus.
Comparing the two, I felt that the B&K had slightly less grain and a little more open sound.
Being that the 2C's are 8 ohms and require 40-160WPC you may want to consider a B&K ST140. it's a gem of an amp and a used one can be had for around $200. I imagine the 2Ce's requirements are similar.
http://cgi.ebay.com/B-K-COMPONENTS-ST-140-POWER-AMPLIFIER-TORIDIAL-VERSION-/220774236663?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33672b81f7 (http://cgi.ebay.com/B-K-COMPONENTS-ST-140-POWER-AMPLIFIER-TORIDIAL-VERSION-/220774236663?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33672b81f7)
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OK. Here's something I always forget to address. I listent to full orchestra classical music for the most part:Beethoven (modern orchestra), Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler ... but also chamber Jazz like Bill Evans, Miles Davis, etc., big band Duke Ellington. Not much rock. This is an important consideration. So. What is your musical taste?
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Well, now I see we've got the 202Plus up, which I put the first bid on, marked the others, including the one you referred me to. What is the "Toroidal Version"? Looks like nothing but big fat transformers inside!
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I listen to a variety of musical styles, at this point centered around jazz. I enjoy classical and symphonic music, but it is not as well represented in my collection as I'd want it to be. Although the larger version of my speakers were a standard monitor in classical recording studios.
B&K amps featured toroidal power supplies. The toroid structure increases efficiency (so your amp draws less power from the wall) and tend to run cooler since they have more surface area. They also act as a barrier to noise and interference. A toroidal power supply is indeed a big fat transformer.
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B&K site: http://www.bkcomp.com/ (http://www.bkcomp.com/)
Nice review of the ST 202, has a comparison to Adcom: http://www0.epinions.com/content_261998349956 (http://www0.epinions.com/content_261998349956)
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Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge Allen!
Impedance of the Vandy 2ce is extremely benign, but sensitivity is very low at 84dB. 100-200W is about right for classical peaks. The peaks will make you cringe if there is not enough power and the amp clips. This happens on bass drum thwacks and flute spikes, as well as sustained, full orchestra fortississimos. If you weren't on a budget I'd suggest 500W so that impedance dip in the bass can be fed properly at high volumes.
(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/107Vanfig01.jpg)
http://www.stereophile.com/content/vandersteen-2ce-signature-ii-loudspeaker-measurements
The Rotel 991 measurements:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/rotel-rb-991-power-amplifier-measurements
They have enough power. What about its sound do you not like?
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My experience with Rotel amps is that they tend to sound a bit thin and "Japanese," for lack of a better word. Nelson Pass designs lean more towards rich and fluid. Both Adcom and B&K amps sound better to me than what I've heard from Rotel.
I can't remember the exact efficiency of my 802's, but 84db sounds right. They are not terribly efficient, but the ST202plus drives them very well. They get surprisingly loud, although they never feel that way. They are always smooth and under control with the amp. The surprise comes when you try to speak to someone while they are playing and you can't hear yourself because it is so loud. There will be no problem driving the VanderSteens with an ST202plus...or even the ST140.
The good news too, Brent, is that if you don't like the the B&K amp, you can easily resell it. There is a clear demand for them and they retain their value pretty well, considering they are over twenty years old.
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Got my eye on two of them over at eBay.
My DIY friend warns me about the possible want of schematics and service manuals. I haven't looked into this. Important for people who do mods. And I am sure a B&K would want upgrades. Maybe not.
The Rotel amp suffers from none of what you are calling Japanese thinness. I fnd it is a little cooler than I want. Nice soundstage, and with the 200 watts there is plenty of headroom for the Vandersteens. These do require over 100 watts to really come into bloom.
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If you weren't on a budget I'd suggest 500W so that impedance dip in the bass can be fed properly at high volumes.
What amp runs at 500 W? Or is that a model number? Well, actually i know there are many amps that run at that but ... well, I have a heating system. My whole reason for pursuing ss at all was to compensate for summer heat, but then I began to like the fuller sound of ss enriched by tube colorations. The Conrad Johnson-Rotel-Vandersteen became reference after a while. I find I'm only using my tubes to audition more sensitive speakers during the colder months, trying to decide which ones I'm finally gonna go with finally. The best I've heard with my tube gear have been open baffles of a specific geometry that my wife won't allow me to keep. They are rather intrusive but I really have NEVER heard anything so wonderful and versatile as these. I'll find the link if anybody reading this thread is interested. They are fine with all types of music and will fill a large room using 15 watts. BUT. Since i can't have perfection, I'll stick with what I've got, can afford to upgrade, can keep and remain married, etc.
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I haven't heard all of the Rotel amps. The ones that I did get to hear didn't impress me as much as the American budget amps like Adcom, B&K, Hafler, Acurus or even Sumo. The irony is that B&W, makers of my beloved speakers, are part of the same company that makes and sells Rotel.
If you are planning on doing the mods yourself, the schematics and service manuals become important. B&K has a very good reputation for customer service and sold a awful lot of ST140's ST202's and Pluses, especially for a company as small as they are. They certainly understand that there are many units out there that may need service or a modification. I bet that you could still get the info you need form them.
If you want a professional modification, there are several companies who do mods on Adcom, B&K and the like. One of the companies I used to deal with was Musical Concepts in Missouri. They took good amps and made them great. They won't need service manuals to do your mod. Reach them at www.musicaldesign.com. (http://www.musicaldesign.com.)
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Thanks, I'll look them up. Seems I've heard the name.
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So I go there only to be apprised of the news of the GFA-555SE, a brand NEW Adcom classic revamp which they are offering mods for. I think I would like to hear something NEW for a change that both fits my budget and my tates. That way I will have a fairly new preamp, new amp and venerable, reliable speakers, all doing what I want in a grand synergy with which I can be happy for at least a year!
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If you weren't on a budget I'd suggest 500W so that impedance dip in the bass can be fed properly at high volumes.
What amp runs at 500 W? Or is that a model number? Well, actually i know there are many amps that run at that but ... well, I have a heating system. My whole reason for pursuing ss at all was to compensate for summer heat, but then I began to like the fuller sound of ss enriched by tube colorations. The Conrad Johnson-Rotel-Vandersteen became reference after a while. I find I'm only using my tubes to audition more sensitive speakers during the colder months, trying to decide which ones I'm finally gonna go with finally. The best I've heard with my tube gear have been open baffles of a specific geometry that my wife won't allow me to keep. They are rather intrusive but I really have NEVER heard anything so wonderful and versatile as these. I'll find the link if anybody reading this thread is interested. They are fine with all types of music and will fill a large room using 15 watts. BUT. Since i can't have perfection, I'll stick with what I've got, can afford to upgrade, can keep and remain married, etc.
Don 'y know what kind of budget you are looking at, but I can tell you that I have owned two amps that put out 500w into lower impedance (4 ohms). The Classe twenty-five and the Moscode 600. Both can be had for somewhere in the area of $1K, plus or minus a little bit. I am sure either one would give you the power you need to drive the bass dip. The Moscode is a hybrid and as such puts out a bit more heat, but also has more of a classic tube flavor to it. I did have some trouble running it for long times during the peak summer heat as my mancave is not air conditioned. I was surprised how much cooler the Classe runs, I can run it all summer long without a real problem. (FYI - My next door neighbor had Classe electronics driving a pair of Vandy 2 series speakers and I always thought it was a good match.) And I didn't expect that mush of a difference in that regard since the A/C input specs are very similar. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you have any specific questions about the amps.
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The GFA555se retails for $1250 and you can get it for a little over a grand. That's a pretty big leap from a $350 used amp. The budget you discussed originally was around $200.
I understand the attractiveness of a new amp, especially one modeled off a neo-classic. Still, if you have a thousand dollars or more to throw at an amp, I'm not sure that the Adcom GFA555se is the best choice. Additionally, the company who makes Adcom is a far cry from the friendly folks who worked out of a humble building in New Brunswick, NJ for old Newt and his son Alec Chanin. It is now owned by a company in Thailand, after having been sold by Emerson Radio. How Emerson got hold of the proud name, I don't know.
Can you buy used?
Threshold --a company owned by Pass-- S300. Another 20+ year old amp, but bulletproof.Transparent an liquid. Incredibly fast. http://cgi.ebay.com/THRESHOLD-S-300-Stasis-300-Watt-Power-Amplier-Amp-EXC-/160615974236?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256575455c (http://cgi.ebay.com/THRESHOLD-S-300-Stasis-300-Watt-Power-Amplier-Amp-EXC-/160615974236?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256575455c) Buy it now for under $900.
McCormack DNA1- From the designer of the famous Line Drive PreAmp-- Sweet piece Starting (and probably finishing) at $650.http://cgi.ebay.com/McCormack-PowerDrive-DNA-1-Amplifier-/110714050479?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c71257af (http://cgi.ebay.com/McCormack-PowerDrive-DNA-1-Amplifier-/110714050479?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c71257af)Here's the Stereophile review: http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/520 (http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/520)
And that was only with a few minutes of goofing around on ebay. I implore you to take your time and explore. There is an abundance of high quality audio out there, if you give it a chance.
Although I doubt you need the kind of power that Richidoo is suggesting (yet I go against Rich's opinion with great trepidation) either of the amps tmazz is suggesting are good choices too.
Please take your time and don;t just dive in to that Adcom piece.
Oh, and by the way, I use an Adcom phono cartridge on my TT. I have for years. It's wonderful.
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You're already happy with the Rotel's power so you may not need 500W>8ohms.
The reason I recommended 500W is because the power needed to play music loudly, like symphony finales and also dynamic spikes from flutes and bass drums, doubles for every additional 3dB of SPL. If you want to play symphonies with 105dB peaks to make you cry at the end, then a 300W>4ohm rated amp will be well into it's power bandwidth, and you will start to hear it strain because distortion rises very quickly as you approach the full power rating at 1% distortion. If the rating is bullshit, like only one channel or exaggerated then you will clip when you try to pull 105dB. This rule of doubling of power for every 3dB of SPL is for pure resistive load, which does not exist in a dynamic speaker, and so does not account for impedance dips, negative phase angle or compression from the speaker. A small 84db speaker will be very compressed at 105, which means you'll want even more volume to compensate. If the amp is only 200W>8ohms you will be near the rated max power when you get to the end of Shostakovich Symphony 5, and it will feel tight and anxious like the system is struggling. It is not an inspiring sound so you will turn it down and miss the punch line of the whole symphony. You want to be able to turn it up! In addition to the power headroom, a more powerful amplifier has the additional benefit of sounding bigger and more confident even at low volume because the microdynamic contrast is increased because of the bigger power supply reserves that are audible at low levels.
Speakers with very low sensitivity are usually dynamically challenged compared to high sensitivity speakers when played at the same volume. They are often lower distortion, too, so that is the tradeoff. So the more powerful amplifier helps to loosen the speaker up with it's bigger current reserves stored in the power transformer's magnetic field and the power supplies larger smoothing cap bank. It can manhandle the lazy speaker to straighten up and fly right. I like high sensitivity speakers for this reason. They operate at very low current most of the time, with no compression at all until over 100dB. So when the 105 peak comes, everything still sounds relaxed and smooth, and you hear the music, not the equipment. But there are very few high sensitivity AND low distortion speakers in the market.
McCormack and Classe are great recommendations for classical listener, as is Moscode. These are 3 of my favorite SS brands. But it will cost you more than $300 to get that level of power and refinement. Your speakers are certainly able to deliver all of that refinement to your ears. To get all the potential of your speakers, you need a high end amplifier, not a midfi amplifier because there is more to music playback than just volume level vs clipping. The Adcom is a midfi amp, so it will never be as refined even at low volume as a McCormack or Pass. Refinement is the tone quality that makes you notice how beautiful and realistic the music sounds beyond melody beat and words, that is what high end sound and audiophilism is all about. But an old Adcom will be reliable and makes the needed power if your are tolerant of the sound at high volumes.
Classical music is not compressed, so it will occasionally provide full scale signals when your volume control is turned way up to hear the quiet parts, like in Beethoven Symphonies. When the amp and speaker can handle it, it is a great feeling. When they can't, it's a knife stab. The alternative is adjusting the volume level during the song to accommodate the amp, or lowering the noise floor of your listening room to play at quieter volumes. Since you are committed to the Vandys, I suggest that you invest in a high quality amplifier to get the most enjoyment from them.
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Hence my trepidation.... ;)
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This is all quite reasonable, and it's a good thing I'm gonna have to do some horse trading in order to make any purchases over 1K. Gives me time to do the research I need to do in order to get sober.
A friend of mine has a McCormack amp he's thinking of selling, and he's always willing to let me try out his stuff in my system. Thanks for the headsup on that.
Theshold has been on my mind, too, of course. I once had a Threshold 5000 for a while but didn't like it much. It needed an overhaul which the folks at the company were willing to do themselves back then (mid 90s) but I have no idea what conglomerate has absorbed them by now or if they'd be willing to do that work still. Costly, too, as I recall. Also, those devils run hot, being Class A, I believe. NP has always done things up in Class A, still does at First Watt. Even so, if I move away from tubes altogether, which always happens during the summer and sometimes continues into the cooler months, I could well go with Threshold and use one of the various hopped up receivers I have around here when it's unbearable.
I'll check out your referrals and try to keep my head. Thanks again.
Brent
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I owned a Classe DR25 for quite some time driving Maggie 3As. Great amp. My favorite SS amp is Plinius. Any model. A bit more refined than the Classe. For classical music a winner. Not a dealer for Classe or Plinius.
charles
SMA
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You're already happy with the Rotel's power so you may not need 500W>8ohms.
The reason I recommended 500W is because .... etc.
This is an extremely intelligent and well written post. I've tried Classe but didn't really like them, although the amp I tried was new and needed a burn in which I didn't know about then (or didn't believe!), and I'm willing to try them again. Haven't heard Moscode but I don't like hybrids, having tried Vincent and one other I kept for a while and sold. McCormack I have access to via loan out from a friend. He's been thinking of selling it for a while and is perfectly willing for me to home audition.
Also there is the option of staying with my Rotel, which I am fairly happy with, and get it upgraded for a smaller investment. I trust his work; he's done great things for me before.
Even so, the old jones gets hold of us sufferers and sometimes we just go with it!
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Threshold --a company owned by Pass-- S300. Another 20+ year old amp, but bulletproof.Transparent an liquid. Incredibly fast. http://cgi.ebay.com/THRESHOLD-S-300-Stasis-300-Watt-Power-Amplier-Amp-EXC-/160615974236?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256575455c (http://cgi.ebay.com/THRESHOLD-S-300-Stasis-300-Watt-Power-Amplier-Amp-EXC-/160615974236?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256575455c) Buy it now for under $900.
Well, this looks good. A bit old but my DIY pal could probably do something if I don't like it. It's newer than the Threshold 5000 I had briefly, meaning mid- rather than early 80s. Even so, it's a bit of a bruiser and probably a wonderful heating system! However, it's nice to know I have options, and once again thanks for the encouragement to go on with the Great Quest for a bit before jumping right in.
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"The Great Quest" indeed. It's also known as "Audio Nervosa." It plagues us all.
And just so you know, Richidoo is an intelligent and well written guy.
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This is an extremely intelligent and well written post.
Why, thank you! :D If I weren't so conservative I could be an audio journalist! :rofl:
Moscode is to Vincent what gourmet food is before and after digestion.
Mods are tempting, but there's only so much that can be done, and usually the mods upset the original design. Power supply mods are usually worthwhile to try, but signal path mods require long term development to find musically significant improvement. If your guy knows Rotel and has done a bunch of them with happy customers, then certainly worth a try. But avoid the "parts upgrades" approach, because it's a musical instrument, not a hot rod.
For the actual money and time put into modding, you can usually buy a better sounding used commercial product with reputation, good reviews and good resale value. But mods and DIY are exciting because of the high risk/reward, and of course the fun of DIY.
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Righto, Richidoo! My DIY guy is mainly upgrading caps, nothing to do with wiring except the in and outputs, which are getting moribund. Coax OK but one balanced channel is gone. The balanced is only a problem when i want to use the matching Rotel RC-995, which I've moved in lately to see if I can stand all ss, using the coax inputs. Cool. No problem. I could live with this, too. Trouble with all ss is you're never satisfied. Why then don't I like hybrids. Well, could be because I was using Vincents with their awful Chinese tubes which can only be replaced with Chinese tubes. But I also had a fairly well regarded integrated ... must look that up, I'm old and forgetful, etc.
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Right, so you take out the Conrad Johnson and right away there is that solid state hardness. Going to put it back at once! Cool day, anyways.
Is it true that Vandersteens are not tube friendly? I mean, they WERE, it seems, until I heard more sensitive speakers (Klipsch Fortes, the home made open baffles, which have ruined me for life!). Some fanatic over on Audioasylum works only with ss and equalizers who, when I mentioned my various tube adventures, told me to sell it all and, as you'd expect, buy his equalizer. He said things like, "You can get stereo with one speaker." I'M SURE HE SAID THAT. He was talking so fast and for so long that I may be mistaken. You get the point.
I mean, I do find that the Vandersteen's are perfectly wonderful with the coloration provided by the C/J.
My thinking now -- such as remains to this machine -- goes in the direction of staying with the Rotel until I find a NEW amp that suits me, meaning I go ahead with the cap upgrades, don't bother, I'm happy ... OR ... oh, I don't know, forget the whole thing and listen to downloads comfortably through headphones up in the one air conditioned room in the house. Oh, but then you need a headphone amp. Have one, have one. Two. Three. Best is the little Hifiman (one of his first before he went big time with AA distribution), a USB DAC which gives just enough body to my MacBook that I'm cool. I'd just rather have it outside my head.
So. I'll listn to the McCormack, skip the Adcom, live with the Rotel (maybe have it modded) C/J, Vandersteens, et. Maybe I'll just jump in front of a falling Focal. Nervosa, indeed!
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The CJ is hiding the flaws of the amp. The combined distortion loses resolution, which is the reason to own high end audio equipment. Get a better amp and soon you will crave less gravy from CJ, while your immersion in the music deepens and you have more listening satisfaction overall. Strong euphonic distortion like CJ is addictive, so you will have to come off the stoner before you can appreciate what the speakers with low distortion amp can do. You may prefer to remain a tube junkie, which is perfectly acceptable. We have a special tube ward for patients like that. ;) The 2ce can be powered by a tube amp very well due to it's easy impedance curve. But it will still need the watts to be able to play loudly, 100W min. With a tube amp the CJ will be too much.
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If I weren't so conservative I could be an audio journalist! :rofl:
I dunno Rich. Conservatism and audio journalism are not mutually exclusive.
http://csis.org/expert/anthony-h-cordesman (http://csis.org/expert/anthony-h-cordesman)
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..and Brent, please give a good listen to that McCormack. It is delightful.
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Well, the best tube amp I've had powering the Vandersteens was a Sonic Frontiers Power 1, which sounded great until it blew up. (Never mind that story, it embarrasses me!) I am from time to time a tube head. It is only during the summer that I go solid state. Even so, as I say, it gets to be interesting.
I have a group of audio pals that meet from to time in our various houses when our wives are away or workng or otherwise occupied. They like my place best because of the high ceilings. EVRYTHING sounds better here. Or worse, depending on whether the member has a man cave, living room space or, in my case, a frikkin cathedral. I remember bringing home one of the chaps' singled driver monitors which of course sounded wonderful in his man cave and got lost in space here.
More to the point, I've come round to seeing (hearing) that for what I listent to I am losing something with tubes, for all their magic. Live concerts I go to do not sound euphonisious or even as good as a fine tube amp duplicating the same performance!
A certain livliness happens with solid state that you don't get with tubes unless you are listening to Patricia Barber and a piano or Miles Davis and his classic quintet or the Bill Evans Trio of the late 50s and early 60s.
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I dunno Rich. Conservatism and audio journalism are not mutually exclusive.
http://csis.org/expert/anthony-h-cordesman (http://csis.org/expert/anthony-h-cordesman)
That's cool! I didn't know that. But he likes Bryston so only half points. There are conservatives hiding all through the entertainment biz.
I am on the fence now about tubes. I listen to a beautiful sounding SS amp designed by Sol Samet almost all the time, and I feel no desire to run the tubes. But I'm hoping I can enjoy them more with the new speakers. If the SS still sounds better, or one of his latest versions I'll sell them and be done with power tubes for a while. Sol's amp sound better than 300B tubes? Heresy! depends if you want cool ice grapefruit juice on a hot day, or Colombian coffee with bailey's amaretto and kahlua beside the fire. Depends whether it's Anita O'Day Quartet or Beethoven symphony. That's why I have both. Snappers can do both well, but I sold mine for want of quality tubes. I may just buy another pair.
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Lost me in the dust here, guys. Perhaps I should read the link, eh? Not a conservative, not nothing anymore, a sentiment which I call political gnosticism. Never mind. Who is Sol? Which amp are we talking here. As for tubes, the 300B doesn't interest me at all. I like EL-84 and once, sadly, KT-88s.
So my bloody C/J amp is covering up pimples, eh? What sort of preamp would reveal them? Well, fact is, th Rotel pre is fine, makes em both sound a bit hard. The C/J-Rotel combo has warmth and space and thrill from all them watts.
I can't think of an ss preamp I have preferred over any other. Kind of liked the little Audio Alchemy DLS. That has something about it, a certain up front clarity. Mostly of course I've used integrated amps. The tubed Anthem Integrated 1. Various NADs. My separates have been tubed, for the most part. Just in the last decade it's been experiments with hybrids (NO) and separates with tube pre to ss amp. Good. Been doing Beethoven all morning on the same old rig. Good. Will be better because -- da-da-da-DA! -- I, Brento, will it so!
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Don't listen to Rich about tubes being all smeary and lacking resolution.... this is the guy that willing sat in front of Usher Be-20s powered by Spectron amps at elevated volume levels for extended periods of time and seemed to like it :) hehehehehe Steve H and I actually had to leave the house and stand out in the driveway to get away from that :) hehehe
Not all C/J is created equal.... and not all of it is overly warm.... I've heard some of it with NOS tubes that was almost forward and lean sounding.... that's the perk of having tube pieces... you can make it sound dramatically different just by swapping a tube without having to buy new gear or DIY a cap/opamp/output transistor change.....
I don't really have anything to add to the conversation.. just wanted to bust Rich's chops :) and point out that audiophile terms are completely in the ear of the beholder.... bright to me is smooth and relaxed to someone else.....things that drive me bonkers and make me grind my teeth don't even phase Rich and things that irritate him, I'm not all that upset about.... You're on the right track to try something out in your system... just don't avoid something because of something on the internet unless there is an overwhelming consistent opinion of it one way or the other (and be a bit cautious of that as well as I've heard stuff that people rave about and thought their ears were broken).... everything's a compromise.... just try to find something that is the compromises you want to make....
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Moscode is to Vincent what gourmet food is before and after digestion.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I was just about to reply to an earlier post in this thread to say that although they are both hybrid designs, the Moscodes and the Vincents don't orbit the same sun. But I think Rich hit the nail right on the head.
BTW, the Moscode I was referring to was the original Moscode 600, not the current production models fro George Kaye, which I understand are even better sounding that the NYAL versions. (and of course more expensive)
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I dunno Rich. Conservatism and audio journalism are not mutually exclusive.
http://csis.org/expert/anthony-h-cordesman (http://csis.org/expert/anthony-h-cordesman)
That's cool! I didn't know that. But he likes Bryston so only half points. There are conservatives hiding all through the entertainment biz.
I am on the fence now about tubes. I listen to a beautiful sounding SS amp designed by Sol Samet almost all the time, and I feel no desire to run the tubes. But I'm hoping I can enjoy them more with the new speakers. If the SS still sounds better, or one of his latest versions I'll sell them and be done with power tubes for a while. Sol's amp sound better than 300B tubes? Heresy! depends if you want cool ice grapefruit juice on a hot day, or Colombian coffee with bailey's amaretto and kahlua beside the fire. Depends whether it's Anita O'Day Quartet or Beethoven symphony. That's why I have both. Snappers can do both well, but I sold mine for want of quality tubes. I may just buy another pair.
The better amp designs get the closer the SS and tubes models start to sound. While this may sound crazy at fist glance consider this - There is only one "right" sound of an amplifier (the mythical strait wire with gain.) Any difference we hear are due to a departure in some way from perfect reproduction of the input signal (i.e. distortion.) Well the better the amp designs get on both sides of the fence, the less distortion they produce and the closer they will end up sounding to one another.
So to me when somebody says that a top shelf SS amps sounds just like a top shelf tube amp it doesn't sound like heresy to me, it sounds more like a logical conclusion. (are we actually there yet, not really, but we do get closer and closer as the years go on.)
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Hi Shane!! I kiss you with my busted chops! I can't remember who brought that Spectron over to my house? It didn't hurt my ears like you guys, and it made great bass and great strings. I loved the feeling of infinite power it had. So it would have worked if we put a 6SN7 tube preamp in front? hahah
Hey Tom, wasn't George Kaye the original moscode designer? For some reason I thought he was in on the beginning of it too.
I'm with you Tom about "one right sound," in theory. I've heard it a few times, from different mfgs, usually expensive, powerful, linear, SS amps. But I also own 300Bs and love them, so there is something to say for indulgence for the sake of pleasure. But in the long run, I think a neutral amp with enough power is ideal. Even my beloved Snappers were too exciting. I heard them at the show last week, the room was full of anticipation, like we were all waiting for Jimmy Hendrix to show up, I recognized the sound from the Snappers. I used to like that, but now I lean towards less drama. But they were simply awesome on string quartets where drama is everything.
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Hey, I'm a Buddhist. I can't POSSIBLY accept the notion of one right sound. We are in the realm of Relative Truth here. I figure distortion is distortion of SILENCE, if anything. In other words, music itself is a distortiopn. The reason we hear things, old Kant says, is because we have ears which perceive sound. This is not to say there IS not sound, but it is going through a whole lot of filters: first your ears, your hearing history, your social background, your education, your whole electro-chemical apparatus which is also conditioned by your food preferances, drug intake, where you work, who you screw, cat hairs, dog hairs, who's pissing you off today, etc. All relative and subject to causes and conditions. I don't know how anyone can believe in the "right sound". That is a metaphysical notion, almost religious, completely superstitious. We are all filters, all distortions of the signal. Enjoy it!
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Well, don't everybody shut up at once! Isn't someone going to give me a bad time?
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My take on the "Right Sound" is that if you have IT, just the sound you've been dreaming of, finally at long last - It'll only be "right" for that one track or one CD if you are lucky.
The next thing you put on, you'll be wishing for a bit more air, a bit less midbass etc.
Not to say that gear can't do a great job, but with such variability in the source material we can only hope for "pretty darn good" on most stuff, with that apex coming on but a few select cuts. The definition of a bell curve, I guess.
Brento if you would consider a ClassD amp may I suggest one from my friend (note the disclaimer) Tommy of the Digital Amp Co. He sometimes has demos at great prices, and it's the best SS and the best ClassD I've heard for the $$. Some great reviews out there too.
IMO
-Mike
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Actually, I've been waiting for one of my DIY pals to finish wiring up his Hifimedly class D mono amps. They do 150 watts at 8 om. I was exploring Class D a few years ago with the PS Audio offering (120 was it?) but altough they had an amazing soundstage they were REALLY cold, really edgy, even with tubed preamps. I bought two of them for some reason, I guess hoping the first was a mistake, but they both sounded the same. I am eager to hear the newer Class D amps in my system and the Hifimedly will give me the chance. He'll part with these for $200 if I like them. That would settle the problem, actually. What does your friend have to offer?
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I don't know what demo stuff he might have (probably not much)
But here's the website, thanks for asking:
http://www.digitalamp.com/
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Yes, I've checked it out. Bit out of my leauge. Now we're talking 2 and 3K. Didn't see any demos.
I realize that while I've been on and off line here all day I've been listening to Gunther Wand's whole Beethoven cycle via iTunes lossless and enjoying myself enormously. Obviously I'm not really hurting here for quality sound, for all my Faustian restlessness.
Really appreciate all the feedback today. You're a granch bunch of chaps. Let's keep talking. Surely there must be a solution to all this, even if only for one perfect CD cut, perhaps a whole side of vinyl, the remains of a reel to reel tape, etc.
Thanks all,
Brento
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I really like your idea that sound is distortion of silence, and that we are all distortions of the signal. Creationism from the musicians' perspective, and the string theorist!! :thumb:
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Hey, I'm a Buddhist. I can't POSSIBLY accept the notion of one right sound. We are in the realm of Relative Truth here. I figure distortion is distortion of SILENCE, if anything. In other words, music itself is a distortiopn. The reason we hear things, old Kant says, is because we have ears which perceive sound. This is not to say there IS not sound, but it is going through a whole lot of filters: first your ears, your hearing history, your social background, your education, your whole electro-chemical apparatus which is also conditioned by your food preferances, drug intake, where you work, who you screw, cat hairs, dog hairs, who's pissing you off today, etc. All relative and subject to causes and conditions. I don't know how anyone can believe in the "right sound". That is a metaphysical notion, almost religious, completely superstitious. We are all filters, all distortions of the signal. Enjoy it!
Wow, that is a turn off the main Nervosa highway onto a side road. 8)
I can't disagree with anything you say, but this is nowhere near the lines that I was thinking along. I was talking about the "sound" of the amplifier, meaning the sonic signature that the amp imposed on the signal presented to it by the ways in which it distorts that signal in addition to simply amplifying it. You were referring to the "right sound" in terms of how we as human beings experience the music. I found you comments to be a very interesting take on our hobby. While I was trying to convey a thought about the physical changes made by an inanimate object on the music signal, you took the same words and turned it into a comment about the way that we as human beings are affected on an intellectual and emotion level by the signals (music) being processed by the same amp.
This is one of the things that I love about this place it is always presenting me with new ideas and new ways of thinking about and approaching this hobby.
Thanks Brent
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Hey Tom, wasn't George Kaye the original moscode designer? For some reason I thought he was in on the beginning of it too.
You are right Rich, George was Harvey Rosenberg's Chief Engineer during the New York Audio Labs days and as such was the principle designer of the amps in the original Moscode series.
I'm with you Tom about "one right sound," in theory.
And of course we must all remember that it is nothing more than a theory because absolutely everything distorts a signal flow in some way (no matter how small.) So in practicality every amp will distort the signal presented to it in some way, so they will all have their own unique "character". However this does not change the fact that logically the smaller the distortions get the closer the two amps will be to each other, no matter what technology they each use. That was the only point I was trying to make.
But as Brent so correctly pointed out the human interface and processing of the sound throws a whole slew of extra variables into the mix.
Just when we thought we were starting to get this thing figured out.,,,,,,, :roll: :rofl:
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Sorry to get weird. By the way, is that the same Rosenberg who called himself "Gizm", wrote for Postiive Feedback? If so, I rather share or shared his ideas (I think he died), especially when I got into tubes. I still have a print issue of PF in which he raves on in a long article which I quite frankly could not get through at the time and still keep meaning to get back to. But i have been of the subjectivist persuastion all along in this. I have of course heard that as you approach the pinacle of high end designs the difference between solid state and tubes begins to vanish. I don't have the money to explore this fully. Used to be you could go to show rooms and listen, een bring ths stuff home and try it out.
So, I do have financial limitations here, which is why I concentrate on synergy. You can get really fine sound without getting a second mortgage or knocking over banks by careful system matching. It took me years to get this through my head. You get all bedazzled by Stereophile reviews and start chasing after stuff that really won't sound good with what you have. At first I paid no attention to the "Associated Equipment" sidebars; and only gave a cursory look at the music these writers were audtioning their review samples with. I figured if their doing Jimi Hendrix, well, Mahler should be fine! Or worse, Diana Krall (everybody's system demo fave, certainly heard more of her in showrooms -- before they all closed -- than anywhere else!), assuming the same equipment would be Beethoven friendly.
Initially (I wonder when that was!) I began this adventure trying to get a satisfying summer rig that I could listen to without bleeding ears. It was in the course of a heat wave that I arrived at the current C/J-Rotel-Vandersteen synergy. I was beginning to just leave it all be at that because neither the C/J nor the Rotel (for all its muscle) both run cool. Then, you know, guys come in here with their sensitive speakers and the all tube system starts to come alive in ways I hadn't known were possible and I begin to sit there sweating and suffering until I can't any more and must try to deny the evidence of my senses, also trying to remember that the summer synergy is not forever; I could get such speakers myself, use both ss and tube amps at will, etc., etc. It goes on and on. So I go off searching for another pair of speakers, either to replace the Vandersteens entirely or ... and so on. The race is not finished!
So then I get all Zen and figure ... Oh, never mind! No, just to squeeze the thought into Haiku length, if not form, start all over again with naive ears.
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Weird is fine here. Let it all out. You'll feel much better.
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Synergy is in the eye of the beholder. Best ??? There is no best. Budget is an issue to a point. As an outsider looking in the CJ gives you tone, body and soul. The rotel is a tad on the warm side of neutral, the Vandy's warm and rich. Hmmmmmmm.
You have some options to try. First off an Audio Research amp is a dynamic neutral amp having wonderfull synergy with Vandersteen and CJ preamps. Your source is fine. The speaker can be changed as well keeping all you have.
If it were me a AR amp with either your CJ or a passive[ that's right] by Luminous audio can be made to match your source and amp. Under $250 buckaroos.
If all else fails get those tuning bells out and tune your Zen cave. :rofl: :rofl:
charles
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Well, since it's discontentment time (summer usually is for me with regard to audio) I'm trying all sorts of things. When the heat came on, I finally had to turn off the tubes, at least the amps. The C/J pre is not that hot, and for all its muscle, the Rotel runs cool also.
But here is where the frikkin Nelson Passage began. With a Nakamichi surround receiver. A friend's friend had recently gone AWOL on his former life and more or less burned all his bridges. He gave my friend his storage locker key and said he could have, sell, give away or toss all his earthly possession. He asked me if I wanted to look at any of it. I said any books or electronics and suddenly found my garage full of stuff. My library became impossible, or rather more impossible than it already was at this point. The only electronics that came along with the books was a Nakamichi AV3-S receiver. I let it sit there for a long time. Then out of curiosity I tried it one day and found it was kinda nice. In fact, surprisingly nice. It was a hot day so I left it up.
Then I learn from my main DIY pal that Threshold had licensed out the Pass Stasis amp design to Nakamichi. Evidently some of this remains to even the later surround receivers. I did a bunch of web searching and found out a lot about Nakamichi (the man, the company, the board game) and soon enough landed on things like the PA-7 amp, the PA-5, etc., and from there all over the midfi realm, touching on everything Mr. Zen had had a hand in,finally arriving at the Adcom GFA-5 -- series. This is why I jumped at the new GFA-555 tribute amp ... WHICH, as it turns out (again chez my main DIY man) is based on the GFA-555 II, meaning it has moved very far from the old Nelson Pass into overpriced midfi crap. Meaning very bad customer service from someone reading a script who is looking out the window at Conradian rain forests, pagodas, or Manila gangster fronts replete with stretch limos and guys with cello cases. Like that.
Round and round. Is this familiar?
So, then I wind up on Audionervosa, maybe where I should have started in the first place, considering how much helpful advice and what an education I'm receiving here! Hi, guys! Where were we?
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We were trying to decide if you wanted to spend $200, $400, $1000 or $0.
$200=B&K ST140
$400=B&K ST202plus
$1000=McCormack (model tbd)
$0= stand pat with what you've got.
Question: How much heat is generated by your equipment? Do you have central air conditioning? Is your room air-conditioned at all? Where do you live?
Me: I live in South Carolina, which is HOT in the summer. My city, Columbia, is the hottest portion of the state. It's advertising slogan is "Famously Hot," with is a half truth...there is nothing famous about Columbia. I, too, use a tube preamp, Audilble Illusions Modulus 2D (aka The Tube Eater) along with my B&K SS amp. My amp runs hotter when it is at idle than at high volumes, and I keep it at idle all the time because it sounds MUCH better warm than cold.
My house doesn't get any warmer because of my hifi. Why are you so concerned about heat and seasonal stereos?
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Well, I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area South, meaning Silicon Valley, meaning hot in the summer at times. Not bad but I don't have air conditioning (that would be ridiculous in my house, which has high ceilings downstairs, low ceilings up), and I'm one of these guys who doesn't like to bother his neighbors so I shut the door when I play music, and I don't do well with heat, and so on.
So, now I learn these B&K are hot at idle. Class A? Of course. I don't ask for much, you see. I want power that runs cool and sounds sweet and spacious. I get this with the Rotel. And the Nakamichi receiver. Beginning to wonder if I should just let it go and listen to the Nak receiver. I think my snobbery is coming into play here. I won't allow this thing to sound as good as it does. That can only mean that if I had known about these things years ago I would not be spending a lot of money trying to get it all right.
Now, if the B&K amps are hot, I may as well forget it. Or, if I hear one and go for it, then I have to reformulate the synergy. I suppose just use the Nak when it's too hot, the B&K when it's cool, forget the tubes, etc.
Still want to try out the other DIY guy's Class D mono amps. Working on that now.
Also thinking again about going after big old Nak amps. They come up on eBay now and then.
I am also thinking of walking out the door and not returning to my house until I have found something else to obsess about. Perhaps some extra-marital babe who gives me pleausre of such magnitude that I no longer even need recorded music.
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As for my budget, well, that is contingent. If I want something that costs 1K, well, I will sell something I have around here to get that amount. That's what I mean by horse trading. I've always done that. Briefly, I let myself go to hell with a credit card. Times are harder now. The things I tend to look at belong to friends, are modded by friends, or they are things which I luck upon at garage sales, etc. Nothing new has really interested me for a long time.
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Sorry to get weird. By the way, is that the same Rosenberg who called himself "Gizm", wrote for Postiive Feedback?
One and the same.
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Right. It was "Gizmo", but I'm sure you were aware of the type-O. Quite the visionary.
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Well, I went for the B&K ST-140 Toriodal, I think because it's pretty inside, but more from Allen's intelligent remarks and some research I did and, possibly, just to piss off my DIY friends. Because if, by some chance, the amp, which goes back to the 90s at the very earliest, sounds wonderful, needs no tweaks or upgrades, well that's boring, huh? I'm no fun. It could happen that I'll like my system again. That would REALLY be boring. My friends won't like me any more. I will have to seek out friends who just wanna dig on the music. That would be fun for me. Them, too, if they like Mahler.
My Great System will be comprised of a fine Conrad-Johnson preamp, B&K amp (105 watts, it's the last five that matter!) and Vandersteen 2ce (not even Signature) speakers. If I like it, I will tell you all about it so you can be happy for me.
Of course, this cannot last for long because audio nervosa (the condition, the disease) does not endure remission for long. Big Toys wait in the wings.