Author Topic: That fine line  (Read 6538 times)

Offline dflee

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That fine line
« on: June 15, 2021, 06:17:59 PM »
To not overload a room yet still have some bottom end at lower volume
without destroying it at moderate volume.
Can it be done and if so through speakers alone or does it take a combination
of equipment to get that sound and still retain the mids and highs.
Am I asking too much or is it just way outside my budget to even try.

Don
"Enjoy pleasure, not because it is fleeting, but because it exists at all." Sacrament, Clive Barker.

Offline P.I.

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Re: That fine line
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2021, 10:01:53 PM »
To not overload a room yet still have some bottom end at lower volume
without destroying it at moderate volume.
Can it be done and if so through speakers alone or does it take a combination
of equipment to get that sound and still retain the mids and highs.
Am I asking too much or is it just way outside my budget to even try.

Don
You are dealing with the results of the ear's non-linearity.  That old Fletcher-Munson curve:

https://www.grooveboxstudios.com/fletcher-munson-curve/

Achieving the same musical satisfaction/enjoyment over a broad range of listening levels, say 70dB peaks to 105dB peaks, using the same loudspeaker is simply not gonna happen.

There are reasons why good recording studios employ several pairs of speakers during mix down.  It is essential that a final mix "translates" well on different speaker types at different listening levels.  You don't use the same monitors to mix chamber music and gangster rap or metal.

The most cost effective method to meet your challenges is to get a great pair of small monitor speakers and team them up with a capable, high quality subwoofer that will allow varying the low pass/high pass turnover point between about 60Hz to 200Hz.  At very low listening levels one may want a 200Hz crossover point to fatten up the upper bass low midrange that the non-linearity dictates for fullness, but at higher levels that fattening up will result in bloated, muddy low frequencies.  At higher levels, the 60 Hz crossover point will sound more "right".

Getting musical reproduction to sound "right" is a complex soup of listening level, speaker type, content input, crossover points, room dimensions, driver diameter, number and type of LF drivers and on and on.

Bottom line is we never get it "right", only "right-ish".

Given your unique requirements I heartily recommend a monitor/subwoofer or a speaker with separately powered and adjustable low frequency components.  There is a plethora of options out there.  Step 1: find a monitor or small speaker that gets the midrange right.  Music is by and large a midrange event.  Make sure the highs aren't in your face.  Too much detail often is an indicator of a bump in the lower treble.  Next, try subwoofers that are adaptable like I mentioned.  Ask the monitor speaker builder what he/she recommends.  Make sure you have return privileges on the sub.  Getting a sub that blends well with smaller speakers demands a speaker with exceptional impulse response... the infamous "fast" sounding drivers.

Two things to remember: 

If you can hear the sub, it is too loud. 

Friends don't let friends buy Focal or B&W?  Just sayin'. 

The smaller speaker builders off the best performance/investment values.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2021, 10:16:15 PM by P.I. »
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Offline S Clark

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Re: That fine line
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2021, 04:25:57 AM »



...The most cost effective method to meet your challenges is to get a great pair of small monitor speakers and team them up with a capable, high quality subwoofer that will allow varying the low pass/high pass turnover point between about 60Hz to 200Hz.  At very low listening levels one may want a 200Hz crossover point to fatten up the upper bass low midrange that the non-linearity dictates for fullness, but at higher levels that fattening up will result in bloated, muddy low frequencies.  At higher levels, the 60 Hz crossover point will sound more "right"...


Sounds like you just need to push the "loudness" button on your 1973 Pioneer receiver. 
Seriously, looking back, that old gear had some good ideas, just not always implemented well. 
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Rythmic sub

Offline dflee

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Re: That fine line
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2021, 06:51:10 AM »
Well, that is something I'll reread a few more times.
Is that why speaker manufacturers develop speakers with humps in certain areas? To
make up for that natural loss at certain frequencies at certain levels.
"floorstanding speaker delivers the series’ signature clarity and articulation along with visceral bass. The system will suit larger listening environments but is capable of revealing a huge dynamic range even when played at low volumes in smaller rooms"
This is taken from an advertisement for a speaker. After reading F-M Curve article can it be taken seriously?

Thanks
Don

ps: Forgot all about the loudness button (dang).
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 06:52:53 AM by dflee »
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Offline rollo

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Re: That fine line
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2021, 08:12:04 AM »
 Great explanation Dave. Agree monitors and Sub. If on a budget look at Fyne from $500 up. Or Fritz for more at $3500.


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Offline P.I.

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Re: That fine line
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2021, 08:23:22 AM »
Yeah, that "Loudness" contour was the only frequency control I would use during the way back era.  Always on at low levels and off at high levels.  There was that in-between volume that always was way too thick sounding.

Don:  an ad copywriter can say anything in print, but they can't warp physics in reality.  Advertising writers and political speech writers should all be distrusted!  :^o
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Offline steve

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Re: That fine line
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2021, 03:04:21 PM »
Well, that is something I'll reread a few more times.
Is that why speaker manufacturers develop speakers with humps in certain areas? To
make up for that natural loss at certain frequencies at certain levels.
"floorstanding speaker delivers the series’ signature clarity and articulation along with visceral bass. The system will suit larger listening environments but is capable of revealing a huge dynamic range even when played at low volumes in smaller rooms"
This is taken from an advertisement for a speaker. After reading F-M Curve article can it be taken seriously?

Thanks
Don

ps: Forgot all about the loudness button (dang).

Yes, the F.M. curve can be taken seriously, RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook uses the graph in their discussions. Scott has it right, just use a loudness button, or use a Bass control with different spl levels, with a bypass switch to remove/bypass the control/parts out altogether at high spl levels. The switch will probably affect the sonics a little, but less than all the connections and parts.

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: July 11, 2021, 03:08:47 PM by steve »
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Offline James Edward

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Re: That fine line
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2021, 05:22:59 AM »



Well, that is something I'll reread a few more times.
Is that why speaker manufacturers develop speakers with humps in certain areas? To
make up for that natural loss at certain frequencies at certain levels.
"floorstanding speaker delivers the series’ signature clarity and articulation along with visceral bass. The system will suit larger listening environments but is capable of revealing a huge dynamic range even when played at low volumes in smaller rooms"
This is taken from an advertisement for a speaker. After reading F-M Curve article can it be taken seriously?

Thanks
Don

ps: Forgot all about the loudness button (dang).

Yes, the F.M. curve can be taken seriously, RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook uses the graph in their discussions. Scott has it right, just use a loudness button, or use a Bass control with different spl levels, with a bypass switch to remove/bypass the control/parts out altogether at high spl levels. The switch will probably affect the sonics a little, but less than all the connections and parts.

cheers

steve
I don’t know what equipment you have, but I would seriously consider this, or something similar from another company. https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000-pro-subwoofer

They have a true free tryout period- free shipping both ways. I’m not a shill for SVS- I use Hsu for my sub- but Hsu doesn’t offer the remote adjustment of the SB1000.

It has speaker level inputs, which will work if you don’t have bass management built into your equipment. Most of what us 2 channel old codgers use doesn’t.

Just as importantly, you can turn it on, off, and adjust it from your phone or ipad. There is your ‘loudness’ control…

I’ve been battling bass issues, and a sub is sometimes a good answer.
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Offline steve

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Re: That fine line
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2021, 09:05:17 AM »



Well, that is something I'll reread a few more times.
Is that why speaker manufacturers develop speakers with humps in certain areas? To
make up for that natural loss at certain frequencies at certain levels.
"floorstanding speaker delivers the series’ signature clarity and articulation along with visceral bass. The system will suit larger listening environments but is capable of revealing a huge dynamic range even when played at low volumes in smaller rooms"
This is taken from an advertisement for a speaker. After reading F-M Curve article can it be taken seriously?

Thanks
Don

ps: Forgot all about the loudness button (dang).

Yes, the F.M. curve can be taken seriously, RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook uses the graph in their discussions. Scott has it right, just use a loudness button, or use a Bass control with different spl levels, with a bypass switch to remove/bypass the control/parts out altogether at high spl levels. The switch will probably affect the sonics a little, but less than all the connections and parts.

cheers

steve
I don’t know what equipment you have, but I would seriously consider this, or something similar from another company. https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000-pro-subwoofer

They have a true free tryout period- free shipping both ways. I’m not a shill for SVS- I use Hsu for my sub- but Hsu doesn’t offer the remote adjustment of the SB1000.

It has speaker level inputs, which will work if you don’t have bass management built into your equipment. Most of what us 2 channel old codgers use doesn’t.

Just as importantly, you can turn it on, off, and adjust it from your phone or ipad. There is your ‘loudness’ control…

I’ve been battling bass issues, and a sub is sometimes a good answer.

Hi James,

Check the bottom of my post for components.  :)

I have a parallel adjustment control on the 11A Line Preamplifier to compensate for different amplifier input impedances (Z). My 25PPT monoblocks have switchable treble and bass controls (parallel parts in power supply) to compensate for tube near end of life aging, for personal adjustments and screwy room and components.

There has never ever been a sub I have liked, so won't use them. I would rather use a large box design, each with a woofer. No worries concerning stereo imaging. Response is -3db at 28hz and easily reproduces to 20hz.

I use a 12" woofer, with Qts I wanted, and modified 4" full range driver. The crossover is a quasi 2nd order ~165-170hz, with 2 control adjustments, each down to hundreds of thousandths of an ohm adjustment. (This requires the amp/speaker connections to be pristine and quite tight as well.)

cheers

steve

« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 09:04:33 AM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline James Edward

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Re: That fine line
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2021, 09:31:06 AM »
I was replying to Don’s original post. I’ll bow out now.
Luxman L- 590 AX MK2
Esoteric K-07X
Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB
Audience Au24SE
PI Cat6
Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S
Stereo Hsu ULS-15 Mk2
Supra Classic 6.0

Offline P.I.

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Re: That fine line
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2021, 12:02:01 AM »
it may be counter intuitive, but you will actually get better results, and less likelihood of overloading your room with a pair (or even two pairs) of properly set up subs.  and active crossovers also help a lot, freeing the mains and their amp(s) from seeing the lowest frequencies.  i've also found that, (in spite of bass supposedly being non directional below ~80hz), the fact is soundstaging is better w/stereo subs.

doug s,
I am all about the subwoofer swarm to even out room response.  They don't gave to be big, just good subs.
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Offline tmazz

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Re: That fine line
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2021, 02:58:45 PM »
it may be counter intuitive, but you will actually get better results, and less likelihood of overloading your room with a pair (or even two pairs) of properly set up subs.  and active crossovers also help a lot, freeing the mains and their amp(s) from seeing the lowest frequencies.  i've also found that, (in spite of bass supposedly being non directional below ~80hz), the fact is soundstaging is better w/stereo subs.

doug s,

The imaging is better because even though the crossovers get rid of most of the signal above the bass region some still slips in and if you have one sub they you have some summed mono lower mid-range leaking into a speaker that is not close to where at least one of the L & R speakers are, which messes up your imaging. You can somewhat reduce the effect somewhat by try to place the sub in a spot that is equidistant to both speakers, but it is better still if there are two subs placed in a somewhat L&R stereo position which  keeps the leaded signals closer to the places they are supposed to be coming out of, i.e. your L & R speakers. it is always a balancing act between the spots where the subs themselves sound best and the spot that makes the rest of the system sound it's best.
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