Author Topic: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?  (Read 832 times)

Offline Nick B

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3645
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2022, 09:58:59 PM »
Interesting comments which I appreciate. I certainly understand about blind testing and agree with that when possible. I also understand our brains can play tricks on us. However, Iíve mentioned on a few occasions to a member here how good things sound after about 4-5 hours of listening. Now thatís a far ways away from being on 24/7. But hereís the proof, at least for meÖ. At 4-5+ hours, the songs I was extremely familiar with sounded the same as to tonality, soundstage, air, quality of vocals etc. At the 24 hour mark, these same tunes presented information which I had NEVER heard before. There was more separation of instruments within the soundstage, voices in a chorus could now be heard very distinctly as individuals, instruments I had never heard before were now easily discernible. Again, these are recordings Iíve had for decades that Iím intimately familiar with. If my brain is playing tricks on me by adding information Iíve never heard previously and doing it as if I were a composer or a recording engineer, well, heck, hatís off to my imagination 😊  As to measurements, they can be important for a designer. But Iím simply an enthusiastic, non-technical music lover. I just donít want to spend my time reading the ASR stuff. No thanksÖnot todayÖnot tomorrow. I am curious as to what parts/factors are involved in this. I would guess some of these parts operate better at higher temperatures and need a certain duration of time to achieve that. Thatís how I see itÖI mean hear it.

I better get back to playing more old, familiar tunes to see what new goodies will be revealed 🎶🎶
Van Alstine SET 120 Control Amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
iFi Zen Stream & Mojo Audio lps
Wywires Silver cables & Audio Envy power cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline malloy

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
  • no grave concern for repercussion
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2022, 10:06:40 PM »
Hi Nick,

The Plinius integrated's manual says never to turn it off and that it will sound best after 24-48 hours of being left on. My record was 7 days on straight.

From the manual:

WARM-UP PERIOD

You will find that the Plinius 8100 will become noticeably 'warmer' in sound after being on for a period of time. We usually recommend waiting at least 24 hours before expecting the best quality of sound reproduction from your amplifier. Also, as the Plinius 8100 uses very little power while on, we suggest leaving the unit turned on so that it will always be at it's sonic best.


I found this to be true. The bigger, pure class A versions has a standby switch since they eat up a lot of juice.

Paul

Offline Nick B

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3645
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2022, 10:36:12 PM »
Hi Nick,

The Plinius integrated's manual says never to turn it off and that it will sound best after 24-48 hours of being left on. My record was 7 days on straight.

From the manual:

WARM-UP PERIOD

You will find that the Plinius 8100 will become noticeably 'warmer' in sound after being on for a period of time. We usually recommend waiting at least 24 hours before expecting the best quality of sound reproduction from your amplifier. Also, as the Plinius 8100 uses very little power while on, we suggest leaving the unit turned on so that it will always be at it's sonic best.


I found this to be true. The bigger, pure class A versions has a standby switch since they eat up a lot of juice.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks for that. It seems like competent, well-respected manufacturers are on opposite sides of the fence on this. For my amp in my system in my house, thereís just no question of the superior presentation. Whether that would apply to the next solid state amp I own, I have no idea. Iím willing to sacrifice equipment longevity (within reason) to have this level of improvement.

Nick
PS  still enjoying that tube amp?
Van Alstine SET 120 Control Amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
iFi Zen Stream & Mojo Audio lps
Wywires Silver cables & Audio Envy power cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline malloy

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
  • no grave concern for repercussion
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2022, 10:50:55 PM »

PS  still enjoying that tube amp?

Yes! The offending tube (whatever it was) has quieted down, for now at least.

Paul

Online GDHAL

  • Seeking Help
  • **
  • Posts: 55
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2022, 11:54:55 PM »
Asking a manufacturer and/or adhering to their recommendations is certainly a wise choice. Wiser still includes your own experience.

Yet another wise move would be to speak with a repair technician under the manufacturers employ and/or outside of their direct employ however an "authorized" repair center. Pose the on/off question to them. See, read, hear what they have to say.

Also, should your unit ever actually need repair, consider the nature of the problem and ask yourself - and honestly answer yourself - if you think that had you kept your unit powered off more often if that might have helped avoid the situation you've found yourself in.

For those that experience a "world of sonic improvement" when left on 24/7 relative to being kept powered off, something is "wrong". If that were the case, you should also experience a world of sonic improvement or degradation when the *temperature* and *humidity* in your room changes +/- 10 percent or so.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2022, 12:00:27 AM by GDHAL »
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Offline Nick B

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3645
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2022, 12:16:37 AM »
Asking a manufacturer and/or adhering to their recommendations is certainly a wise choice. Wiser still includes your own experience.

Yet another wise move would be to speak with a repair technician under the manufacturers employ and/or outside of their direct employ however an "authorized" repair center. Pose the on/off question to them. See, read, hear what they have to say.

Also, should your unit ever actually need repair, consider the nature of the problem and ask yourself - and honestly answer yourself - if you think that had you kept your unit powered off more often if that might have helped avoid the situation you've found yourself in.

For those that experience a "world of sonic improvement" when left on 24/7 relative to being kept powered off, something is "wrong". If that were the case, you should also experience great improvement or degradation when the *temperature* and *humidity* in your room changes +/- 10 percent or so.

Certainly understand and respect your point of view. The test for this, or any solid state amp is to run one 24/7 and run the other one on a typical on/off cycle and see what the difference is in longevity. Not aware of that being done and Iím already too old to want to wait for the results. I bought this amp used for $900 or so and itís not a huge investment. The improvement in SQ is such that it is worth it for me to leave it on all the time. If it were a $5-$10k amp or more, I might be thinking differently. Not sure why youíre disagreeing with my statement that Iím hearing new musical information that Iíve never heard before. Iím here living with this setup and its not in doubt. Your perspective seems more like that of an engineer. Iím simply a music enthusiast reporting what Iím hearing. Using your logic, my system should sound the same whether itís one minute after being turned on or 5 hours later. What are the Plinius guys smoking when they say their amps sound better after waiting at least 24 hours?
Van Alstine SET 120 Control Amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
iFi Zen Stream & Mojo Audio lps
Wywires Silver cables & Audio Envy power cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Online GDHAL

  • Seeking Help
  • **
  • Posts: 55
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2022, 04:40:04 AM »
@Nick B

I'm not disagreeing with your statement at all. Whatever it is you're hearing, your hearing. All I'm saying is that based on your description, the difference in what you're hearing shouldn't be the case.

Certainly not meaning to be argumentative but are you hearing another verse in a song when it's powered on 24/7 versus listening to that same song from a cold start and then the verse isn't there?

I have no clue what the people at Plinius are smoking. But certainly you realize that every manufacturer builds in some degree of planned obsolescence into their products. Case in point would be any cell phone manufacturer. The battery is the first thing to go bad. The battery cannot be replaced without spending the same cost as had you purchase a brand new phone.

So you see, my point here is essentially saying that manufacturers don't always tell the truth, and sometimes they tell their own truth because it benefits them, not because it benefits you. Not implying this is necessarily the case in your particular circumstance, but it's certainly conceivable.

I'm sorry Nick. The *fact* remains that any difference from a cold/warm/hot state should be something which is barely audible at best.
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Offline S Clark

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1130
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2022, 07:22:45 AM »
I have no dog in this fight.  I don't leave my gear on because I use stuff with tubes. 
But... "So you see, my point here is essentially saying that manufacturers don't always tell the truth, and sometimes they tell their own truth because it benefits them, not because it benefits you. Not implying this is necessarily the case in your particular circumstance, but it's certainly conceivable."
But this is exactly what this implies, and I don't think you are winning converts
And..."I'm sorry Nick. The *fact* remains that any difference from a cold/warm/hot state should be something which is barely audible at best." I guess Nick's ears don't agree with your theory (not exactly a *fact*)
Regardless, I think I'll go turn my system on, spin the turntable, and listen to some tunes.   :thumb:
« Last Edit: October 08, 2022, 07:49:11 AM by S Clark »
Speaker-GR Research LS9-XStatik-AltecFlamenco
Amp-Moscode,Dodd,Folsom
Pre-Dodd
Turntable-Vyger,Victor,TechnicSP10MK2
Phonopre-Hagermann,Jolida,GSlee   
Cable-AudioSensibility Wywires TWL
Cartridge-Dynavector,Sumiko
Tonearm-PioneerP3,Jelco
Rythmic sub

Online GDHAL

  • Seeking Help
  • **
  • Posts: 55
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2022, 08:57:55 AM »
@S Clark

Fair enough and your points are noted.

 I'll bow out of this thread for the moment.

Happy listening 🎧

Best.

Hal
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Offline Nick B

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3645
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2022, 09:32:54 AM »
@Nick B

I'm not disagreeing with your statement at all. Whatever it is you're hearing, your hearing. All I'm saying is that based on your description, the difference in what you're hearing shouldn't be the case.

Certainly not meaning to be argumentative but are you hearing another verse in a song when it's powered on 24/7 versus listening to that same song from a cold start and then the verse isn't there?

I have no clue what the people at Plinius are smoking. But certainly you realize that every manufacturer builds in some degree of planned obsolescence into their products. Case in point would be any cell phone manufacturer. The battery is the first thing to go bad. The battery cannot be replaced without spending the same cost as had you purchase a brand new phone.

So you see, my point here is essentially saying that manufacturers don't always tell the truth, and sometimes they tell their own truth because it benefits them, not because it benefits you. Not implying this is necessarily the case in your particular circumstance, but it's certainly conceivable.

I'm sorry Nick. The *fact* remains that any difference from a cold/warm/hot state should be something which is barely audible at best.

I understand your points about planned obsolescence and manufacturers having their own interests at heart first, I have bought many of the planned obsolescence products over the years 😳 I donít know the reason why Iím hearing additional information like more distinct presentation of individual voices in a chorus or hearing an instrument that I hadnít heard before. Maybe weíre getting into the area of operating tolerances or ideal operating temperatures for equipment and that concept applies far beyond audio components.

Anyway, Iíll leave this as is and appreciate your thoughts and input.
Van Alstine SET 120 Control Amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
iFi Zen Stream & Mojo Audio lps
Wywires Silver cables & Audio Envy power cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Nick B

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3645
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2022, 09:40:41 AM »
I have no dog in this fight.  I don't leave my gear on because I use stuff with tubes. 
But... "So you see, my point here is essentially saying that manufacturers don't always tell the truth, and sometimes they tell their own truth because it benefits them, not because it benefits you. Not implying this is necessarily the case in your particular circumstance, but it's certainly conceivable."
But this is exactly what this implies, and I don't think you are winning converts
And..."I'm sorry Nick. The *fact* remains that any difference from a cold/warm/hot state should be something which is barely audible at best." I guess Nick's ears don't agree with your theory (not exactly a *fact*)
Regardless, I think I'll go turn my system on, spin the turntable, and listen to some tunes.   :thumb:

The fightiní dog is napping now and wants to watch college football the rest of the day. Enjoy your tubes 🎶🎶
Van Alstine SET 120 Control Amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
iFi Zen Stream & Mojo Audio lps
Wywires Silver cables & Audio Envy power cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline jimbones

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1282
  • Two plus Two Speakers
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2022, 07:06:46 AM »
I leave my SS amp on, to me it sounds better and one thing I learned in engineering school was that on/off stresses components worse than leaving them on.
Rogue RP7 Pre, Art Audio Vinyl Reference Phono,CJ Premier 12 Pwr, VPI Classic II/Dynavector 20X2L, Roon Rock, Auralic Vega DAC, Emotiva ERC-3, MIT, TWL, WireWorld, Wywires, Shunyata

Offline S Clark

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1130
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2022, 08:07:15 AM »
The fightiní dog is napping now and wants to watch college football the rest of the day. Enjoy your tubes 🎶🎶
Not much for fighting or college football, but napping is right up my alley.  Old dogs love sleeping in the sun.   
Speaker-GR Research LS9-XStatik-AltecFlamenco
Amp-Moscode,Dodd,Folsom
Pre-Dodd
Turntable-Vyger,Victor,TechnicSP10MK2
Phonopre-Hagermann,Jolida,GSlee   
Cable-AudioSensibility Wywires TWL
Cartridge-Dynavector,Sumiko
Tonearm-PioneerP3,Jelco
Rythmic sub

Online GDHAL

  • Seeking Help
  • **
  • Posts: 55
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2022, 08:12:43 AM »
I leave my SS amp on, to me it sounds better and one thing I learned in engineering school was that on/off stresses components worse than leaving them on.

Hi Jim!  :)

You are absolutely correct "....that on/off stresses components..."

This is why in a previous post here in this thread I wrote:

Now of course there's a caveat to this which has to do with the in rush of current once a unit is turned on. And by turned on I mean from a completely off state, I'm not talking about coming out of standby. Suppose you wake up at 10:00 in the morning and you intend to listen throughout the day until 10:00 at night. In that case you'd want to leave your unit on for the entire 12 hour duration. So even in the middle of that time frame if you step out to go to the grocery store for 2 hours you don't want to turn your unit off and then turn it back on again. But when you're going to sleep at 10:00 at night and you're not going to wake up until sometime in the next morning - which presumably you will wake up - then you turn your unit on if in fact you intend to listen to it that day. Otherwise leave it off.

To the remainder of your statement ".....worse than leaving them on.", I'd say "it depends". If on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off constantly and intentionally (I think you and others know what I mean) then sure, leaving it on is healthier for the components. If on/off - as in once a day for the listening session duration, then I believe (and was taught) that it is healthier for the components to be in an "off" (completely, including standby) state.

As to sounding "better" one way (on/off) or the other (constantly on) this is subjective, of course. So whatever your preference is - i.e. whatever your "distortion profile" finds preferable to your own ears, by all means, stay true to that.

Best.

Hal
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Offline steve

  • Audiologist
  • *
  • Posts: 1083
Re: solid state amps - always on or turn off when done listening?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2022, 09:45:46 PM »
Been quite busy lately, so if I have not posted. My replies might also be intermittent.

Nick perceiving a sonic difference in the stereo after the amp is on 24 hours may not
be unusual in a good system. One of the weaknesses when designing a component/system
is to cause masking. Nick has a good system, thus minimal masking.

Time for warm up, part values changing do occur over time. My system takes a minimum of
3 hours and preferred 4 hours. As such, another may actually take 6 hours, 10 hours,
depending upon the mass needed to be warmed.

Masking is the "ability" to "remove" inner detail, change harmonic structure etc. This
occurs with either full, or lean individual components, and passive parts with temperature
change. As such, masking will affect the ability to perceive sonic differences.

Temperature and humidity can affect musical playback perception due to air mass change,
thus the energy required to vibrate the air mass. This is Not a linear function.

Bling testing is difficult to perform correctly. Typical audio blind testing always skews towards
no sonic difference.
Does blind testing equate to typical listening. I have yet to see an answer.
If we have a group, statistically half are in a bass increasing mode
and half in a bass decreasing mode, how does one obtain a 95% confidence result?

Lastly, how perceptive is the "ear" (complete listening system)? In the lab, which I have at home now,
I have found a correlation of adjustments whose results essentially match.

1. Changing a resistor value by 1 part in a million is clearly perceived as a tonal balance change/
     frequency response change. That equates to at least -120db down from the fundamental. A
     specification of +/- 0,1db is in the range of -54db variation. If just -0,1db, that is only -60db.
     As one can see, that specification means virtually nothing when compared to -120db. Not
     surprised at all that sonic differences are perceived.

2. Changing 3/16th inch of one turn on a 600 watt 10mh iron core crossover inductor is clearly perceived.
     Every time an inductor is used, some sort of distortion of the signal occurs. Even in a simple circuit as
     shown below. Some effects also occur due to dc resistance of the wire. So we usually have one term   
     being frequency sensitive and another term not frequency sensitive.

3. I am now using 10 parallel 18 gauge 6 foot wires in one speaker leg and 11 wires in the other leg.
     Altering either leg by one additional or one less wire is clearly perceived.

4. Exchanging just one speaker leg wire from 3n (99.9% pure) to 6n (99.9999) is clearly perceived.

5. Using a 0,5mm pen marking, such a small rotation of a speaker is clearly perceived.

6. In the upgraded dac, two 6" wires are used from the board to the filter cap. Changing it from 3n to 6n
     is perceived.

Notice these are Not subjective preferences but sonic differences noted.

As one can see, each of these points is an extremely minute variation that supports
the other minute variations noted.

Granted, this is arrived at in a laboratory. However, in the real world at least a partial
realization occurs as Nick and others have observed.

Cheers

steve


« Last Edit: October 11, 2022, 10:52:49 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Designer, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Accutex 320 iii STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Reference Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor standing Test Speakers