There certainly no circle discussion. All follows the laws of science.
"then we have playback. there is no one single device that plays back recordings that we can hear. it's a chain. so, there's really no way to know what's "perfect". it's a balancing act. steve is trying to perform a sisyphean task, imo. because he wants the "perfect" playback chain from stylus (or streamer, or transport, or tape, or computer, or???) to your ear. way too many things happening between the the time the software hits its first piece of gear to the last release from the actual sound emitter and then head to your ear. and what is the environment your ear is in, and how does the sound emitter react to that environment?"
>>There are actually no “too many things” between the input to the speakers in my system. Yes it is more difficult for consumers to know what is most accurate. However, I do understand that one must audition as many tube components as possible. Besides my 10A, 11A line preamplifier (I am retired), the Ultra-Verve, the upgraded AR-3, ST 70 from Pro-Musica are extremely excellent preamps/amps. However, I do not recommend any solid state components. See below the inherent problems one faces, which the RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, 26+ engineers address
from before 1960.
>>Yes it is quite possible to design a perfectly accurate amp, preamp, even phono stage. Once one gets those and the ics accurate in an absolute sense, then perform the source/speaker/speaker wires/finish room treatments. It is the room that creates the modes, so if the room is quite small, it might be necessary to create a high pass filter to limit modes.
"so, someone may love their ripe amp because their speakers are lean, and an accurate amp doesn't sound as good. the end result may in fact be "perfect". or a perfectly naturally sounding speaker may sound like dookie, if it's in a room that's either too hard or too absorbent. (is there a speaker that sounds perfect regardless of the room it's in?) and, a device may actually measure less than perfect, but more closely sound like the real live unrecorded sound."
>>The end result will never be “perfect using a lean and ripe”. For one, there are many other sonic problems with said lean speakers and said ripe amp. Even Hal mentioned once the sound is compromised, it is not possible to get it back. Two wrongs don’t make a right but cost may limit what one can do.
>>The solution is to rid of as many faults as possible and replace the at fault components with more accurate ones. I mean on my test speakers I am down to 1 part in a 1,000,000. That is between -114db and -120db down and musical differences are clearly heard.
>>References were given above for amp and preamp. Ics one will have to test although it is easy to check if an ic is fairly accurate. (Mine are not shielded so of limited use in other systems.) In a small room, it may be necessary to limit the bass response/modes. If worse comes to worse, a simple RC 6db filter network might be enough. Please make sure the caps and resistor is high quality, such as a Mundorf Supreme.
>>More info on parts and components.
>>All solid state and most tube amplifiers use electrolytic capacitors. An electrolytic capacitor has a DA of around 5. Many electrolytic capacitors are used in solid state amplifiers with their many stages. A few, lower ufd values in tubes.
>>The DA of a good polypropylene capacitor is around 0.02, or 250 times less Dielectric Absorption effect.
>>The ESR of an electrolytic capacitor is many times higher than a good poly cap.
>>Electrolytic capacitors are very temperature sensitive (see graph below), and the
ufd lowers as the frequency increases, both of which affects musical accuracy.
Polys are many times better in both respects .
>>Below are graphs of typical electrolytic capacitors and Poly type capacitors to show
some of the differences which affects musical qualities.
>>With the electrolytic capacitor graph #8. The horizontal X line is temperature, the vertical line Y is uf change, or percentage lost. That change affects the music accuracy.
>>Notice the electrolytic capacitors start curving near the bottom and rise in the 500+ hz range. That is the inductance causing the change in reactance, ESL, starting its dirty work and continuing into the most sensitive area of human hearing on up. Electrolytic capacitors also degrade the dynamics.
>>Figure #9, X line is frequency and Y line is ohms. The poly type capacitors sharply decrease until the hundreds of thousands of hz. That vs 500hz. What an immense difference. (Fig. 8,9 from Picking Capacitors by Walter Jung and Richard Marsh.) Solid state amps use tens of thousands of ufd. Tubes a few hundred at most.
>>While their may be 3-5 tubes in an amp, a SS amp can have a dozen transistors or more. There is much more
than harmonic distortion to consider.
>>Solid state devices all have leakage properties. A 1N914/1N4148, with 1pf capacitance, good for multiple millions of hz will bleed audio through even when biased off. Same with larger devices since there are physical connections vs vacuum between elements of a vacuum tube.
>>Anyone who has performed any testing at all understands how electrolytic capacitors, solid materials negatively affect musical quality in both solid state and tube components. It has been known for decades, with RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook (26 engineers+) addressing the subjects like capacitors etc.
Now we are to believe in magic that musical playback degradation is only minor and not needed in voicing a system.
Cheers
steve
