Author Topic: Do we really need a NEW Amp?  (Read 14930 times)

Offline rollo

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Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« on: August 29, 2007, 06:44:31 AM »
Today we have more Amps than ever before. What is it with todays Amps that have an edge on the Vintage Amps? Seems to me there has not been much inovation in Amp design, except Class "D" or "T" Amps. Circuit designs have not really changed much over the years.
     A good design is a good design no matter how old it is IMO. I would be very curious to hear a new Audio Research Amp against my older Classic 60 or DR 250 Servo Mk2 push pull Triodes. To match them today would cost thousands more. In the case of the DR250 around $30,000 more. How can it be 4x better than classic Amps of say 15 or 20 years ago.
      Except for parts improvement over the years in caps and resistors IMO much has not changed. So as Carlman says go out and find that super Amp used sounds like a great idea to me. Any comments?

 rollo   
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2007, 08:46:53 AM »
Quality of the best caps, resistors, transformers has changed a lot, even if basic concept remain the same, and there is new stuff coming out all the time. High end audio is growing due to interest generated from internet forums fueling development more than ever before. If signal goes through there, it can make the world of difference as Bunky is finding with his coupling cap swap. Speakers have also advanced tremendously in the last decade, making tuning an amp easier, now you can hear so much more of what it's doing. The new speakers pose a challenge to amp makers too, to step up their game to keep up.

New AR amps are pretty good..... definitely hear one if you can. ;)

WEEZ

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2007, 02:14:20 PM »
Interesting topic.

I think if someone really checked into it, they would find that some of the best sounding amplifiers of today are refinements of basic designs that have been around for quite awhile. While some of the parts might be better (some worse), the curcuits haven't changed all that much.

IMO, the 'new' class D; class T; and 'chip' amps still sound funny. But the technology has spawned further development in the areas or grounding, shielding, and power supply improvements that have bled over to analog designs and have improved many 'classic' curcuits. And that's cool. :)

WEEZ

Offline SteveB

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2007, 02:30:11 PM »
I agree with one of Rollo's points. A vintage amp, depending on the model ,may hold up over the years quite well. The large  number of variables in testing this theory may be complex. What amp, associated equipment, how vintage, who are the reviewers and what is their bias etc? This would be a great (blind ??) test that I'm sure many companies  may steer clear of since there is always a push from marketing to development to bring forth a new "more better" product, be it amplifiers or speakers. There may be significant improvement and maybe not. I don't blame them for new model introductions but I think they have an obligation to the buyer to make his or her new purchase significantly better and not just a cosmetic improvement.I hope they don't implement a small circuit change and call it a "breakthrough" when in fact it is not . Of course emerging technology will always have frequent developments compared to the time tested products. 

Maybe this would be another good idea for the G2G if we could locate suitable equipment to compare? What do you think Rich?

I am careful not to hop on the bandwagon to purchase the latest greatest product until it has passed the test of time and has a little dust on it so to speak. In my opinion the best time to buy good used equipment is when a model has fallen out of "favor" due to a minor model change. My audio budget is sometimes very limited and I try to take advantage of these opportunities when possible. Of course here we are not talking vintage vs new but one  2 or 3 year older model vs new.

Rich, you are right. The  right speakers are the designers "microscope" as to what circuit changes have actually done to the music.I am always curious to find out, when talking to the speaker designers, what amp or amps they use for development.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2007, 08:38:19 PM »
Maybe that explains the good synergy between Wilson and AR that I like so much. With other amps on them (ML, MF) I don't like them so much. I know each company uses each others stuff as reference. Same at VTL, MAXX2 is their reference.


jrebman

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2007, 09:13:20 AM »
Yes, most amps are of the same basic designs that have been around for decades, and yes there have been lots of improvements to materials, passive (and even some active) components, insulation and core materials for transformers,etc, but not all these innovations are necessarily better in all circumstances.

That said however, there is still room for innovation such as the kinds of things you see coming from Roger Modjeski and David Berning -- two guys who threw out the classic tube manuals, did their own fundamental research and came up with things that push the envelope just a bit further.  Nelson Pass with his re-introduction of power JFET circuits, is also a case where an active component technology has improved and a long dismissed technology brought back in a new application.

Not all these amps are going to be everybody's cup of tea, but they are all fairly out of the mainstream in terms of what's going on inside.

There is also a fairly new technology that is starting to be used in the microwave communications industry, which I predict will eventually show up in audio and will give rise to yet another whole new paradigm, even if it is still a variation on basic linear amplifier design.  The technology I'm speaking of is integrated circuits with on-chip vacuum tube technology -- extremely small vacuum tubes of course (small enough to fit on a silicon chip), but still vacuum tubes nonetheless.  Imagine a killer hybrid preamp that would fit in a matchbook and run for weeks on a small battery.  The technology is here, even if it's mostly in the research lab phase now, but it seems inevitable that it will eventually make it's way to audio.

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Hantra

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2007, 10:44:37 AM »
One could easily ask this question regarding anything in hifi.  I submit that there has been less innovation and change in speaker design in the past 2 decades, than there has in amplifier design.  In general there is very little innovation in sound reproduction compared to almost anything. 

WEEZ

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2007, 03:45:49 PM »
I have a different 'take' than Hantra regarding speaker design. Improvements in materials for speaker cones and cabinets, along with improved passive crossover parts have transformed speaker design, IMO.

If I had my choice to listen thru 20 year old speakers with today's amplifiers vs. 20 year old amplifiers with today's speakers...I'd choose the latter.

As always, YMMV. :)

WEEZ

Hantra

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2007, 04:05:28 PM »
I have a different 'take' than Hantra regarding speaker design. Improvements in materials for speaker cones and cabinets, along with improved passive crossover parts have transformed speaker design,

Our take is not so different.  Our biggest disagreement is the definition of "transformed".  I look at a 1984 Ferrari 288 GTO, and then I look at a 2004 Ferrari Enzo, and I see "transformed".  If I listen to a Watt Puppy from 1987, and then a Watt Puppy today, I don't really feel that is a transformation.  It is certainly a marked improvement, but it's still the same basic speaker, and it makes sound the same way. 

I'd venture to guess the crossover is the same basic design, with a few additions and subtractions.  I would say that the main goal when starting to design the crossover is the same, and the circuit works much the same way.  Same sized drivers, cabinet, same goals.  So you have some new "composite" material that is nothing more than a slight improvement in perceived cabinet resonance. 

OTOH, you've got an Enzo with ceramic brake discs, 600+ bhp (versus 290 at the crank), sodium filled valves, cryogenically seated rings, Carbon fiber body, an automatic tranny that shifts in 150ms, and did I mention is gets BETTER GAS MILEAGE?   :drool:

I don't think we're that far apart.  I just think my standards for "transformation" are higher. 

L8r

jrebman

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2007, 04:12:38 PM »
So, what's with the sodium filled valves?  Never heard of such a thing and I used to be quite a motor head.

-- Jim

Hantra

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2007, 04:18:16 PM »
So, what's with the sodium filled valves?  Never heard of such a thing and I used to be quite a motor head.

-- Jim


Even the Z06 has those now.  To put it simply, if we all had sodium filled heat sinks on our amplifiers, heat would dissipate MUCH faster. 

When you're dealing with the kind of heat that an engine has inside, anything you can do to make it cooler will buy you some horsepower.  And when you're pumping 600-800bhp through 6 liters of normally aspirated V12, even you need the extra help.   :lol:

WEEZ

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2007, 04:19:59 PM »
How do you hook up a Ferrari to your speakers? :lol:

I'll conceed that 'transformed' is a little much. I'll go with 'much improved', though. :)

Seeing as you're a Mac guy...do you think the MK V version of the 275 amp is an improvement over the original? See, I don't.

But you're probably right....nothing really all that new under the sun in the grand scheme of things....

WEEZ

jrebman

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2007, 04:29:56 PM »
Hantra,

Thanks for the info -- gotta look that up so cI can understand the physics a bit better.

Heatsinks?  What are those?  Mine seem to be made of glass :D.

-- Jim

Hantra

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Re: Do we really need a NEW Amp?
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2007, 04:37:22 PM »
Seeing as you're a Mac guy...do you think the MK V version of the 275 amp is an improvement over the original? See, I don't.

Not really.  But then again, McIntosh has never really released new Mk versions of anything much.  The reason they brought back the MkIV is sheer demand.  And then I suppose they HAD to do something with those godforsaken binding posts.  Hence the MkV. 

I wasn't trying to contradict you or anything, but what really got me thinking about this is the other night when I listened to a 17 year old pair of Carvers and was just absolutely blown away by the sound of them.  They were absolutely perfect except for their lack of bottom end. 

It struck me at that point how little the industry has really innovated.  And if anything has innovated significantly in the past 20 years, it's amplifiers IMO.  You've got digital amps.  You've got quad balanced amps that have a noise floor well beyond what was thought physically possible 5 years ago.  You've got amps like the Halcro, which will hypnotize you into buying ANY speaker it's hooked to.