Author Topic: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?  (Read 27741 times)

Offline steve

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2015, 01:09:20 PM »
Quote from: Triode Pete
Geez, Steve, a bit opinionated, eh? How do you know what I've heard & not heard??? How do you know??? I have heard your gear before...

I believe my current SET amp has broken every PARADIGM associated with SET amps... except musicality!

Too bad you're not making "state of the art" gear any more...

Cheers,
Pete

I am just responding to your initial and later very opinionated and strong claims.

Quote
no 6dj8 tube will ever approach what a DHT can do, just supremely musical when done right.

I have answered your first part at least twice, I have heard dozens if not hundreds of SET dht brands, and have decades of listening experience as well as education and design work.

How many times and what system(s) did you hear my preamplifier? Was it at Bobs? If so, that was with his equipment so I cannot vouch as it has been a long time.

I have gone vertical over the last two years which also makes a difference since I could not find a speaker (up to 29 grand) that would work properly with both my 11A and 50 watt amp tested for accuracy/naturalness in absolute terms.

Remember that speakers are designed for the system/amp used by the designer. And I do not know of a single amp designer who tests his amps for accuracy in absolute terms, let alone preamplifier. That is one reason why speakers and systems that sound all over the place. Of course there are other considerations.

We are not seeing many vertical systems, but that is the next step to improving systems.

Take care.

Cheers
Steve
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 08:14:33 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
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Offline topround

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2015, 09:34:55 PM »
Pete,
You have to understand Steve believes low distortion numbers and accuracy are the measurement for great gear.
For many engineers it is a  numbers game.

But we know that this hobby is a lot more than numbers, and the measurements used to design gear while neccessary does not always dictate great results. There is a little Black art involved as well.

People who use DHT tubes understand the pros and cons to using the tube, and yet still choose those tubes again and again...why?...because they are crazy?  Nah
At some point in the hobby you reach a point where you realize that the only person you are trying to impress is yourself.
At that point all the audiophile crap goes by the wayside, and you have one critic...yourself. When you are the only critic the only thing that matters is what makes you happy....for many people, and I mean many, it is DHT tubes, even with all their crappy numbers!
Go figure
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Offline richidoo

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2015, 10:10:24 PM »
Hey gang,
Please don't edit your posts drastically hours after your original submission. It messes up the conversation if subsequent responses lose their context.

Please edit thoroughly before posting.

If you want to make a change, or elaborate, or retract, just quote your original post and add the correction in a new post, that is good forum etiquette. Then we can all see your train of thought and follow along. And our own responses to yours will not lose their context.

Thank you!

Offline steve

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2015, 07:49:38 AM »
Pete,
You have to understand Steve believes low distortion numbers and accuracy are the measurement for great gear.
For many engineers it is a  numbers game.

But we know that this hobby is a lot more than numbers, and the measurements used to design gear while neccessary does not always dictate great results. There is a little Black art involved as well.

People who use DHT tubes understand the pros and cons to using the tube, and yet still choose those tubes again and again...why?...because they are crazy?  Nah
At some point in the hobby you reach a point where you realize that the only person you are trying to impress is yourself.
At that point all the audiophile crap goes by the wayside, and you have one critic...yourself. When you are the only critic the only thing that matters is what makes you happy....for many people, and I mean many, it is DHT tubes, even with all their crappy numbers!
Go figure


And conversely, there are those who like their reproduced music to sound as natural, palpable, tingling, and accurate as possible. That means not staying stagnate.

Your comment about me is 100% blatantly false. For nearly two decades, since I "joined" the internet, I have consistently, over and over posted I use listening tests as the final criteria. I have gone against other engineers, such as JJ, Ken Kantor, and others on Audio Asylum (where I received as many as 36 email virus attacks in one day after each time I posted), Audio Circle, AudioKarma, Stereophile forums etc.

However, even with a perfect design, high HD and IMD specs do matter because they are perceived when performing listening tests. One can perceive to -90 to -100db down.

By the way, I do not need high HD and IMD in order to artificially fill out, make palpable the instruments/voices. My designs naturally fill out the music so the instruments sound more natural, the soundstage more accurate, the dynamics correct.

Of course, if one designs the most natural, palpable, perfectly transparent, perfect soundstage, dynamics, honest in every way, some one(s) is going to feel stepped on. By the way, the parts used would also be the most natural and accurate.

That requires me to perform extensive, accurate listening tests on each part used in my components, to make sure each part is totally transparent, does not add or subtract from the music.

In fact, I have probably performed more testing on parts and components than anyone else on the planet. I found what I needed and use the parts.

However, because of horrible testing procedures on electronic parts on other forums, the good ones are sent into extinction while the poorer parts are glorified and mated with high HD and IMD devices.

I believe everyone realizes that there is big profits involved selling certain tubes, as well as sales in general. Anyone  can copy a design and sell product.

Most of the guys designing different amps/preamps have little understanding of what they are doing. That includes engineers and amateurs such as diy forums etc. So how can they improve what they do not understand.
 
If they wish to stagnate, and do not wish to improve audio, that is up to them. But please do not attempt to limit me and others who wish to improve the experience.

Cheers
Steve

 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 07:58:45 AM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline richidoo

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2015, 11:35:12 AM »
$6 LM4562 + 2 9V batteries = lower distortion than any other amplifier in the world. So?

People like distortion. People like a lot of things that are bad. That's why we have church.

As far as I'm concerned, it's perfectly OK for steve to NOT use DHT pre-amplifier.  Does anyone disagree? Without objection....   

Moving on.

Offline tmazz

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2015, 08:21:50 PM »
People like a lot of things that are bad. That's why we have church.

 :rofl:   :thumb:
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline Triode Pete

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2015, 07:25:55 AM »
$6 LM4562 + 2 9V batteries = lower distortion than any other amplifier in the world. So?

People like distortion. People like a lot of things that are bad. That's why we have church.

As far as I'm concerned, it's perfectly OK for steve to NOT use DHT pre-amplifier.  Does anyone disagree? Without objection....   

Moving on.

+2 !!!
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Offline Response Audio

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2015, 07:32:44 AM »
To add to that....

 I beleive its okay for anybody to like what they like.

 "Build your system for yourself, not the critics"
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Offline tmazz

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2015, 09:12:52 AM »
To add to that....

 I beleive its okay for anybody to like what they like.

 "Build your system for yourself, not the critics"

AMEN to that!!!!!
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline rollo

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2015, 08:27:01 AM »
  OK how about an Audio Note kit ?

charles
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Offline rollo

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2015, 08:42:02 AM »
  Hey Steve you have mentioned "vertical' what do you mean ? I would love to hear one of your designs.
   I agree that we are trying to achieve real sound. We can get proper tonality, harmonics and detail. What is the missing link IMO is the presence and gestate that real music in a real space sounds like. Granted the venue [ room ] can have an affect presenting such as bright, warm, etc. However the presence is MIA for the most part.
    So lets just imagine a DHT is say room coloration compared to another design coloration.
    The same group playing at the Bluenote will sound different than Dizzys in NY.
     Again the same natural character remains at both venues. Again presence.
     Steve for me personally I love a manf. who designs like you. Testing and listening to such is key for me. What i disrespect is when a manf. puts down other designs or says that caps, cables, etc. all sound the same. AVA anybody. No IEC connector until forced by his customers.
    If you ever would like to demo your wares for our audio club we would welcome the opportunity to do so.


charles
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Offline Werd

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2015, 09:43:57 AM »
$6 LM4562 + 2 9V batteries = lower distortion than any other amplifier in the world. So?

People like distortion. People like a lot of things that are bad. That's why we have church.
 

Whoa nasty! But i like it :thumb:
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Offline tmazz

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2015, 10:58:57 AM »
  Hey Steve you have mentioned "vertical' what do you mean ? I would love to hear one of your designs.
   I agree that we are trying to achieve real sound. We can get proper tonality, harmonics and detail. What is the missing link IMO is the presence and gestate that real music in a real space sounds like. Granted the venue [ room ] can have an affect presenting such as bright, warm, etc. However the presence is MIA for the most part.
    So lets just imagine a DHT is say room coloration compared to another design coloration.
    The same group playing at the Bluenote will sound different than Dizzys in NY.
     Again the same natural character remains at both venues. Again presence.
     Steve for me personally I love a manf. who designs like you. Testing and listening to such is key for me. What i disrespect is when a manf. puts down other designs or says that caps, cables, etc. all sound the same. AVA anybody. No IEC connector until forced by his customers.
    If you ever would like to demo your wares for our audio club we would welcome the opportunity to do so.


charles

I think the term vertical design refers to a manufacturer that designs an end to end system (or at least major chunks of it like the preamp, the power amp and the speakers) thereby insuring that synergy is built in right from the start.

(Steve, please correct me if I'm wrong.)
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline Response Audio

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2015, 11:02:46 AM »
This is how my personal system was built. I designed and built the preamp, amp, speakers and all cabling except for a few power cords.


Quote
I think the term vertical design refers to a manufacturer that designs an end to end system (or at least major chunks of it like the preamp, the power amp and the speakers) thereby insuring that synergy is built in right from the start.
Design Engineer
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Offline steve

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Re: 300B based tube preamps like the Bottlehead BeePre. Thoughts on them?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2015, 01:26:14 PM »
 Hey Steve you have mentioned "vertical' what do you mean ? I would love to hear one of your designs.
   I agree that we are trying to achieve real sound. We can get proper tonality, harmonics and detail. What is the missing link IMO is the presence and gestate that real music in a real space sounds like. Granted the venue [ room ] can have an affect presenting such as bright, warm, etc. However the presence is MIA for the most part.
    So lets just imagine a DHT is say room coloration compared to another design coloration.
    The same group playing at the Bluenote will sound different than Dizzys in NY.
     Again the same natural character remains at both venues. Again presence.
     Steve for me personally I love a manf. who designs like you. Testing and listening to such is key for me. What i disrespect is when a manf. puts down other designs or says that caps, cables, etc. all sound the same. AVA anybody. No IEC connector until forced by his customers.
    If you ever would like to demo your wares for our audio club we would welcome the opportunity to do so.


charles

I think the term vertical design refers to a manufacturer that designs an end to end system (or at least major chunks of it like the preamp, the power amp and the speakers) thereby insuring that synergy is built in right from the start.

(Steve, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Yes, as I see and define it Tmazz and response audio. Rollo, yes, design as much as possible, preamplifier, amplifier, speakers, even build ICs, speaker wires, modifying the source if need be. I modified my CD player by bypassing the analog stage. This lowered the gain by 6db, but still had 1 vp-p.

One thing my friends say is that I never stop tweeking. I love working with audio designs. But I am slowing down and taking care of Mom as well, at least to some extent.

Yes, Rollo, presence is a major concern. So many things affect presence, which I also call live sounding. That is my trademark, "Where Music Comes Alive".

I believe all forms of distortion need to be minimized, even HD and IMD. One problem I have had is how to quantify live vs excellent in %. I suspect some view the difference as large and others small. To me there is that defining moment when all is right, and then another song is just off a little. Of course some recordings are way off. But I cannot put a % on the differences.

How to adjust one's stereo. Good question. I guess either one of two different ways, average out for most songs to sound good, go for the best on a few selections?

I wish I could visit, but I cannot even get my speakers down the stairs, let alone fit in a car, and they have no variable adjustments as of yet. I am still tweeking my xovers by changing resistances .01 ohm at a time. It would be better to come by and listen at this end. The speakers are not covered either as of yet. Once I finally install cloth over them, I will need to tweek again. Where are you located Charles? I am near Peoria, Illinois, actually Morton, Illinois, off of I-74, just east of Peoria.

Cheers
Steve
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers