Author Topic: Breakers - Grounding  (Read 8432 times)

Offline rollo

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Breakers - Grounding
« on: December 13, 2013, 08:46:04 AM »
   So how old are those breakers in your Electrical panel ? Time to reseat your ground rod ?
    While we are at it those duplex outlets need a changing ? Now what to use is the question ?
    Any hands on experience you would like to share ? let's hear them.  Clean is good.


charles
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 12:22:51 PM »
No need to "reset the ground rod," which is a good thing because it's impossible to move it. It is solid copper driver 10 feet into the ground. There's nothing there to fix or improve. This is something the inspector checks very carefully. Usually the ground strap cable is connected to the rod underground. But it should last forever. Ham radio guys sometimes pour salt on their antenna grounds to lower the ground impedance which increases their S/N slightly. But they keep the cable connection above the salt. Only one ground is allowed to be connected to your electrical service so don't get any wild ideas.

Old breakers are fine. They don't often fail.

Most modern outlets used in new homes are total junk, cost <$0.50 in quantity. Wiggle the plug, if it moves easily or makes squeaky noises, consider replacing it with a quality duplex.  The copper alloy and the grip will be better.

Among cheap stuff, the Pass & Seymour retail outlets are better than the retail Levitons.

Hubbell hospital grade outlets are very good, very tight with 20A rating. Carlman gave me one years ago, still using it. It takes a good 10 pounds of pressure to insert a plug, then it snaps in.
http://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-Wiring-HBL8300HI-Receptacle-Commercial/dp/B007NMCEPC

The PSAudio outlets are rebranded Hubbell hospital grade.

Jena Labs also uses the Hubbell, cryoed for audio, with special contact copper alloy, so they say.
http://www.jenalabs.com/ac-products/ac-parts09.html

Talk to Triode Pete about the fancy Jap exotic outlets like Oyaide and Furutech.

Other than outlets, some other worthwhile power upgrades are:
Putting all audio-system breakers on the same leg (phase) of the 2 phase utility.

Install 20A breakers, 20A outlets and 12ga wire even if you will never use that much power. Some electricians won't dare "think beyond the code" and are afraid to install too thick wire for fear that the inspector is also stupid and will fail the job for being too good. So it is usually easier to just order a dedicated 20A line than to request a 15 amp breaker with 20A wire and a 15A exotic outlet. You can always replace the breaker or the outlet but you can't easily replace the wire. With 20A line you will have lower source impedance to your components.

Use dedicated outlets for the audio system when possible to eliminate any wire breaks between breaker and outlet which would increase source impedance.

If you must use a shared circuit, open up every outlet and junction and switch box in the circuit and tighten every screw like Godzilla. They can take it. If not, the outlet is junk. It is common for outlets to not be tightened down adequately during construction. The screws are steel, not copper, for the specific purpose of being able to take the elongation tension which serves to hold the contact pressure forever and resist loosening with temperature changes. Use your largest flat screwdriver and your full arm strength (within reason.) The copper used in the outlet contacts is alloyed for strength and spring, it is not pure copper.

Test every outlet with a tester for polarity and good safety ground.

Make sure the service wires are connected to the outlets by looping them fully around the side screws, and never - ever use the back stab holes, not even for non-audio service.

If you can swing it, get a dedicated breaker box just for audio, fed directly from the meter, and use JPS romex from breakers to the outlets. $25/ft.

If you are really crazy, you can bolt down the audio components to the house, then you are allowed to hard-wire the components to the breaker (using JPS of course) without an outlet in the way. You will get lowest possible impedance connection with no outlet.

Put a large isolation transformer in there for extra reserve and make it a balanced power transformer for dead silent background noise. Especially great for tube amps. Night and day. The transformer reduces the impedance in proportion to the size of the magnetic core making the electrical service to the outlet less important. Putting a Equitech balanced transformer on a shared circuit was a miracle improvement for my tube amps.

Use some silver contact paste to improve conductivity on plug blades. Tiny tiny dab is enough. Or at least clean the contacts periodically.

What else?

DaveC

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 12:40:27 PM »
If you run a 20A line you need a 20A receptacle or at least two 15A receptacles on the line to meet code.

Check out MRI receptacles, they are hospital grade and have no magnetic parts since they are for use in MRI rooms.

I have heard of people using 2 circuits for audio, one for amps the other for source. This seems like a really bad idea for grounding and increases the likelihood of ground loop noise.

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 01:00:53 PM »
What else?

go off the grid entirely.... playing with Vinnie Rossi's Red Wine Audio integrated amplifiers at the moment after the good press they've gotten paired with Harbeth at recent audio shows...  interesting stuff...........

not practical for everyone...  so a commentary moreso than suggestion....

I know I sell it and therefore you need to take my word with the appropriate pounds of salt....  but I like to think I tell it like it is.... no power cord or power conditioner has ever had as much impact on any system I've ever owned as much as putting JPS romex in dedicated circuits to my audio gear... it's stupid expensive no matter how you spin it, especially if your room is far from the panel.... but for less than the cost of an elite power cord in a lot of scenarios, it was worth every penny in my setups.....last place I went a little nuts in an effort to showcase some things for folks.  Every outlet location in my audio rooms had 4 separate receptacles right beside each other:

1) standard 12 or 14 gauge circuit that was a shared circuit.... i.e. standard electrical outlets you find in any house with 2, 4, 6, 8 outlets on a single circuit up to the limits of code (or beyond if the guy who wired your house was a moron or unlicensed, which a lot of folks in this state appear to be based on electrical work I've seen in folks' houses in the past 15 years)

2) dedicated circuit with standard Home Depot/Lowes bought 12 gauge romex back to 100A dedicated audio circuit sub-panel.  Single receptacle per circuit.

3) dedicated circuit with standard Home Depot/Lowes bought 8 gauge romex back to 100A dedicated audio sub-panel. Single receptacle per circuit.

4) dedicated circuit with JPS romex back to 100A dedicated audio sub-panel.  Single receptacle per circuit.

I used to do demo/tests for folks where I'd plug component "A" into the shared line first, play a few songs, then swap to 2, then 3, then 4 (or some order thereof where the listener didn't know which was which) and watch their jaws hit the floor, even the skeptics, at the differences in sound just from swapping which receptacle it was plugged into....  everyone picked JPS as the winner every time I did it....

I forget how good I have it at times when I go to other people's rooms... like I did tuesday night to drop off Zephyr speakers to their new owner... we listened at my place for a few minutes when buddy came over to help me load them in the truck... disconnect and drive to his place, hook them up there, and listen... I can hear the crap power at his place the instant we queue up first song..... he's asking to borrow battery powered integrated amp after hearing the differences since he doesn't want to mess with electrical at his place...

for whatever its worth, ymmv, etc. etc. etc.
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

DaveC

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 01:34:05 PM »
Yeah, my panel is right next to my system... 5' of romex would probably be plenty. Gotta run a dedicated 20A line with upgraded wire sometime.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2013, 02:43:38 PM »
I have a closet interior wall that is directly 4 feet above the meter. It is so tempting to hide a panel in there. Maybe my wife would never notice!  :rofl:     That would reduce the total length of wire from meter to amp from 120 feet to about 20.

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2013, 09:21:33 PM »
Rich, if you did put a panel in there it would mean that you a 100 foot shorter antenna to pick up RFI when compared to 120 foot run to your power amp. You would also have potentially less voltage drop and the amplifier might sound more dynamically alive.
Scotty

Offline rollo

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2013, 08:31:45 AM »
  Good stuff guys. Rich what I meant with the grounding rod was to re tighten the connections at the panel.
   Shane the JPS wire is very affective as you have stated. Question ? Why would two dedicated circuits feeding the system cause ground loops if connected to same ground ?
    Dave like the idea of those MRI duplex outlets.  Guys my breakers are at least 50 years old. Is it time to change or makes no difference ?
    Panel is 15ft away so not a long run. Using one dedicated 20 amp line to feed entire system with two Ubers. One Bus for digital and the other for everything else. Was considering another just for the mono block amps. Am I wasting my time and money ?



charles
   
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2013, 09:55:27 AM »
Yeah, a subpanel for audio would be cool. Anything to reduce resistance makes a huge difference in power quality. Can I put the panel in the crawlspace or does it have to be on an interior wall? Headroom would be 4 feet.

Good idea to make sure connections in the panel are tight. But for many people a DIY is not advised because there is 240V in there.

If the line grounds are similar length and connected securely to the panel  and outlets then there should be no ground loops. Loop hum is caused by resistance which causes current to flow. Improve the quality of ground connections and the hum will stop. Sometimes the ground problem is designed into an audio component.  :x

Offline Triode Pete

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2013, 09:59:38 AM »
Yeah, a subpanel for audio would be cool. Anything to reduce resistance makes a huge difference in power quality. Can I put the panel in the crawlspace or does it have to be on an interior wall? Headroom would be 4 feet.

Most building electrical codes require the electrical panel or sub-panel to be fully accessible and cannot be placed in a closed closet... I doubt a crawlspace would be considered acceptable... my $0.02...

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DaveC

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2013, 10:43:41 AM »
One of the issues with using 2 dedicated lines is, for example, if you have a source on line 1 and an integrated amp on line 2, both plugged in with a typical grounded power cord. 

These components are connected together with interconnects, but the grounds are also connected together by the power cord's grounds, as well as any wire inside the wall needed to connect them. If you have 2 dedicated lines as described above, them the ground connection goes back to the panel on line 1, and up to the amp in line 2, potentially traveling over a long distance with many wire connectors.

The "return signal" will take the path of least resistance, and if your interconnect's ground connection is small gauge, then the return could be using your power cord's ground and house grounding system for a majority of the return rather than the interconnect's grounds.

The noise produced by differences in ground potentials is directly related to the impedance between them...


Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2013, 12:45:34 PM »
Rich,

possible option for you is what is here at my house...  at my meter, there is a sub panel box outside, fully accessible... I had like 14 spots open in the main panel in the garage when I moved in to the current house.... and the distance between main panel and my 2 channel room was about he same as from outside sub panel and 2 channel room.... and it was much shorter from garage panel to upstairs rooms than outside sub panel by meter..... so I just did everything in garage panel and pulled all the lines...  if you dont' have a sub panel right at your meter, that's where I'd put it and have it be pure audio.... the one I have outside has my outside A/C units on it and outside plugs and lights... I think that's all that's in it.... bunch of open spots besides that.... if you don't have one of those and had to put one in, I reckon it would be cheaper to have licensed electrician put that in on outside of house right where the service is than what he'd charge to put it on interior wall... you'd just have to use waterproof conduit from where all your audio dedicated circuits comes out of your crawlspace through the baseplate sitting on foundation until it goes into the outdoor panel.... at least that was how I was going to do it if I used that sub panel outside my place...
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline richidoo

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2013, 03:23:12 PM »
Thanks Pete.

Dave, you're right about the wire connectors, and any other kind of break in the wire. it is a large increase in resistance compared to unbroken wire, and each break is susceptible to worsening impedance if the connection grows loose over time, or corrodes. With a dedicated line, there are no breaks at all to raise impedance.

Having low impedance connections also makes music sound better because current is more easily delivered when the amp asks. Commercial amps will usually have audibly better damping. Amps built with adequate sized power transformers will be less affected since they store their own substantial reservoir. Tube amps don't often have power transformers with large magnetic reservoir because they are high voltage transformers, so they really benefit from a large external iso or balanced power tranny. SS amps with lowvoltage rails can have a large magnetic reservoir which makes them less sensitive to the mains source impedance. So there is the noise issue of hum and the separate performance issue, both demand low source impedance power.

Shane, my ACs are protected by big fuses on blades, I don't think that I have an outside breaker panel like I did at my previous abode which had a separate panel for garage. The guest bedroom closet wall is right above the meter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a "sub-panel" is a panel that takes power from a large breaker on the main panel, right? I don't want to do that, I already have dedicated 20A line from the main panel, and I could install another dedicated line on same leg if I wanted to. But I was thinking that I would rather have another "main panel" directly off of the meter, so I can get the computers, appliances and motor loads away from the audio. So what's that 2nd main panel called? To do that would I need an external "master" breaker box with a 240V breaker for each panel? That's what I had at the old place, I think that's what you have too? One breaker for your main panel, and other breakers for your AC.

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2013, 06:41:07 AM »
Rich,

Sorry for my poor terminology....  It's not a "sub-panel" in the sense that it has a big fuse on the main panel feeding it via a run of 6 gauge or something.  It's run off the main service line same as the main panel with no connection between the two directly.... and the perk is that it's literally a 1.5 foot run of cable from main service line... But its a very small panel, limited number of breaker spots... not a full size panel.... so I was calling it a sub panel... maybe secondary panel is more appropriate...
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline richidoo

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Re: Breakers - Grounding
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2013, 07:10:37 AM »
OK cool, that's what I was thinking. That makes more sense than going 60 feet from meter to panel, then another 60 feet back to audio subpanel, then 20 feet to outlets. I can go 4 feet from meter to audio panel then 20 feet to outlets with no appliance noise or sag. When I get an amp bigger than 15W I'll get right on it...   :D

I like this Siemens panel, it has tin plated copper buss instead of aluminum.
http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-Circuit-Indoor-Center-Copper/dp/B005GLDMTY