Dodd Battery VGP Tube Pre-amp and N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Hybrid Amp

[StereoNut]

A good deal of you are already well aware of my system's recent reconfiguration from all solid state (Naim) electronics to a Dodd Battery VGP tube Pre-amp and N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Hybrid (Tube/Moscode) Amp.

It's not quite a full week yet with these two new pieces in the house, but so far things sound very promising. The one thing that may be hard to figure out is "what's contributing to what", considering there's more than one thing different in the system.  Is it the Dodd pre... is it the Moscode 600... is it the new I/C's...???  Tough call.

Overall, I'm hearing detail in recordings that I didn't hear before along with a taller and deeper soundstage that I'm assuming is attributed to the Dodd.  The system is sounding relaxed and effortless, which I'm thinking is all of the reserve power from the Moscode 600.  Overall, there's a more natural and less Hi-fi like presentation with more "body" now, which I think is the combination of the Dodd and the Moscode together.

The one thing I am surprised about is that I went from "zero" tubes (all S.S.) to having 11 tubes in the system now (4 in the Dodd and 7 in the Moscode) and yet there's not an exaggerated "tubey" sound that one might expect.

I'm sure the roller coaster ride through the break in period will not be fun, but hopefully the end result will be worth it once everything settles in.

T.B.C.  

[sleepyguy24]

I'll definitely be tuned in to the updates. I've been a mostly solid state kind of guy and have gotten my feet a little wet with tubes. Mostly i've been using tube buffers and tube dacs. I'll post my thoughts on that when I'm less tired. I don't think I could take a change as drastic as you did with tube preamps and tube amps. Too many variables for my head to wrap around. I like to keep some things constant.

Tube rolling can be a crazy. I'm looking at the box of tubes I accumulated just this year alone and wondering if I just went a little overboard.

Enjoy your system and I hope break-in isn't a pain. You should read the Morrow Audio literature. The break-in process is like a roller coaster ride.

[StereoNut]

Thanks, SG24!

Hopefully break-in won't be too "painful".  I've just gotta convince myself it's a "necessary evil" within the process and just "gut it out!"

I will keep everyone posted as best as possible.  Getting in listening time can sometimes be difficult in my house, but I get in as much as I can get, when I can get it.

Stay tuned!

SN

[rollo]

   One may fool with tubes in the Moscode but I would leave the Dodd as is. Gary has tried different tubes and he prefers the ones chosen.
     That is the reason for the over tubey sound. The 6H30 version isn direct comparison even more neutral than the 12BH VGP model without losing the glory of da tube.
       Two different presentations both good.  Bill expect 200 hours for the pre. About 100 for the Moscode.
       The 6H30 with about 200 is getting there. I tell ya a love hate relationship for sure. ENJOY !!!!!!




charles
    

[StereoNut]

  One may fool with tubes in the Moscode but I would leave the Dodd as is. Gary has tried different tubes and he prefers the ones chosen.
     That is the reason for the over tubey sound. The 6H30 version isn direct comparison even more neutral than the 12BH VGP model without losing the glory of da tube.
       Two different presentations both good.  Bill expect 200 hours for the pre. About 100 for the Moscode.
       The 6H30 with about 200 is getting there. I tell ya a love hate relationship for sure. ENJOY !!!!!!

charles  

Charles

With all of the variables I have going on right now in my "new" system, the last thing I plan on doing to further complicate things is to start tube rolling!  I have enough faith in Gary Dodd and George Kaye to think they know their creations better than anybody else and have their circuits designed to get the most out of the tubes they've chosen.  Somewhere, waaaaaaaaay further down the road I may get to experimenting with trying different tubes, but not now or anytime soon!

As far as the "overly tubey sound" goes, you may (?) have mis-read what I wrote earlier in my original post here.  I was surprised that going from all S.S. to eleven (4 in Pre and 7 in Amp) tubes did NOT give me an "overly tubey sound".

I just keep repeating the word "patience" over and over to myself!

SN

[topround]

Patience for what?
It should sound at least good right out of the box,, no?
I mean if they sounded like shit when they were new no one would have bought one.
Could imagine a slippery audio salesman saying,"Sir I know this sounds like shit, but in a month or two it will blow your mind!"

Remember that bridge for sale?

Sometimes I think we audiophiles take burn in as a pill to remedy what we don't like. We expect burn in to solve all problems.
Sorry but a piece of gear should sound good to begin with and only get better with some time on it.

I know I am a pain in the ass, but let's be real.

Bill it is slippery slope you are on, because this thread is so active everyone is waiting with baited breath.
If you are not happy everyone will know it, and honestly many times happiness does not come, Sales pitch is just pitch, the gear may be good but in your system it may not work out to match the pitch.

Again i know I am a pain in the ass.

 It is great to be excited over a piece of gear, but sometimes we set ourselves up for disappointment if it truly does not delight.
And I may tell you my gear delights the hell out of me, but when i put my head to pillow I will know the truth if I am really happy with the results or not.

I learned the hard way(like us all) to be honest with yourself, if something bothers you or you think something is wrong or you just don't like the gear be honest with yourself and move on. Go ahead give it the time to burn in, maybe it will improve enough to please you, maybe over time you will come to accept it and love it, but in the end be honest.
Audiogon is full of "honest" decisions to sell a piece for many good reasons.

So "patience" may not be what you need in the end, but I truly hope your patience fills your needs.

Again I know I am a pain in the ass, but I am not trying to be one right now!

Mike

[StereoNut]

Patience for what?
It should sound at least good right out of the box,, no?
I mean if they sounded like shit when they were new no one would have bought one.
Could imagine a slippery audio salesman saying,"Sir I know this sounds like shit, but in a month or two it will blow your mind!"

Remember that bridge for sale?

Sometimes I think we audiophiles take burn in as a pill to remedy what we don't like. We expect burn in to solve all problems.
Sorry but a piece of gear should sound good to begin with and only get better with some time on it.

I know I am a pain in the ass, but let's be real.

Bill it is slippery slope you are on, because this thread is so active everyone is waiting with baited breath.
If you are not happy everyone will know it, and honestly many times happiness does not come, Sales pitch is just pitch, the gear may be good but in your system it may not work out to match the pitch.

Again i know I am a pain in the ass.

 It is great to be excited over a piece of gear, but sometimes we set ourselves up for disappointment if it truly does not delight.
And I may tell you my gear delights the hell out of me, but when i put my head to pillow I will know the truth if I am really happy with the results or not.

I learned the hard way(like us all) to be honest with yourself, if something bothers you or you think something is wrong or you just don't like the gear be honest with yourself and move on. Go ahead give it the time to burn in, maybe it will improve enough to please you, maybe over time you will come to accept it and love it, but in the end be honest.
Audiogon is full of "honest" decisions to sell a piece for many good reasons.

So "patience" may not be what you need in the end, but I truly hope your patience fills your needs.

Again I know I am a pain in the ass, but I am not trying to be one right now!

Mike

Mike

Right "outta da box" everything is sounding very good. No-where in my prior posts did I say that anything sounded bad!  As far as my "having/needing patience" comment goes, it was in context to surviving the "break-in roller-coaster ride" that everyone tells me to expect; including George Kaye and Gary Dodd.  Whether I experience the predicted "sonic downturn" after the initial 40-50 hours and then the reversal back towards better sound, only time will tell.

Lets face it... 2/3rd's of my main component electronics have changed in my system; so it no doubt is going to sound different.  Initially, there's a lot to like here.  There's an overall fuller, richer sound than what my Naim electronics gave me, but I'm missing just a wee teenie-weenie little bit of PRAT. Then again (under the category of "who sez you can't teach an old dog new tricks") I've learned by auditioning other equipment in my home the last few months that Naim's "signature" PRAT directly relates to Naim's somewhat thinner overall sound. It's a very difficult task to achieve both in one's system; at least on my budget anyway!

My system has more information and subtle nuances coming through than ever before.  The music has a deeper (front <> back) and taller sound stage (without losing any of the width) and there's more layering now. The bottom end has really picked up a lot of body and more detail.  You can hear how the guy playing stand-up bass plucks the strings differently from one part to the next in a song.

The system has plenty of "balls" with the Moscode and it plays absolutely effortlessly. Unbelievably, after 25+ years of Naim solid state, it's the "more musical, less Hi-fi" sound that I now need to become accustomed to! 

It's funny, the system sounds more relaxed and natural; like you can just listen to it for hours and hours...

   - it's just that I'm not used to it.

SN

P.S. - Mike you can be a pain in the ass sometimes (not that I think you're being one here) but you're also not afraid to speak your mind.  There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you approach it from a "live and let live" perspective. I appreciate your input here.

[topround]

Thanks Bill.

and yes I will always speak my mind, until I get banned.

There is too much BS, misinformation, urban legend and stupidity in this hobby.
What we need is honesty

and that is what i am after.

After my rave if you think my system sucked please say it, don't say how gracious i was or how good the food was or how cute my cats are.
Just say it as it is, this way we all can learn

ok lets get back to burn in...zzzz

[richidoo]

Part of the burn in is physical changes in the gear, but a bigger part is mental. You have to adjust yourself to the new gear. It will not be "perfect" after it is fully burned in. It will be different and you have to change how you perceive music to adapt to the new sound and eventually feel it as normal. It doesn't take long, but it is a process. The system is just a tool. You have to practice with the new golf club until it becomes part of you. You are the listening experience. Learning to run the brain is the ultimate tweak.

When you start listening to different kinds of music that you didn't listen to with the Naims, then you'll know you are mentally adjusted. The system 'tail' wags the audiophile 'dog.'

[StereoNut]

...The system 'tail' wags the audiophile 'dog.'

That is such a great line, Rich.  You should make that your Avatar or Signature line before I steal it! 

[BobM]

Mike, you're a pain in the ass!
 

[rollo]

  One may fool with tubes in the Moscode but I would leave the Dodd as is. Gary has tried different tubes and he prefers the ones chosen.
     That is the reason for the over tubey sound. The 6H30 version isn direct comparison even more neutral than the 12BH VGP model without losing the glory of da tube.
       Two different presentations both good.  Bill expect 200 hours for the pre. About 100 for the Moscode.
       The 6H30 with about 200 is getting there. I tell ya a love hate relationship for sure. ENJOY !!!!!!

charles  

Charles

With all of the variables I have going on right now in my "new" system, the last thing I plan on doing to further complicate things is to start tube rolling!  I have enough faith in Gary Dodd and George Kaye to think they know their creations better than anybody else and have their circuits designed to get the most out of the tubes they've chosen.  Somewhere, waaaaaaaaay further down the road I may get to experimenting with trying different tubes, but not now or anytime soon!

As far as the "overly tubey sound" goes, you may (?) have mis-read what I wrote earlier in my original post here.  I was surprised that going from all S.S. to eleven (4 in Pre and 7 in Amp) tubes did NOT give me an "overly tubey sound".

I just keep repeating the word "patience" over and over to myself!

SN

    Bill sorry for the confusion. What I meant was in direct comparison to the 6H30 model the VGP is a richer presentation but not tubey. Did not explain myself properly.


charles

[rollo]

  If the unit after coming up to proper operating temperature straight out of the box sounds good it will sound better after some hours.
   It is a known and recognized fact that the dielectrics must settle. That takes time. Some caps like the Blackgates appear to never fully break in. The solder joints alone take about 30 hours.
   Now  if one believes that the break in period is BS so be it. Could it be that the break in process is a way of fooling us to get used to what we are now hearing. I truly do not know.
    The caps of today have more dielectric than previous designs and the manf. [ V-cap } recco some 400 hours.
     I tell ya the 6H30 model I'm burning in now has changed dramatically since turning it on. Have been listening every 24 hours of time put on. Clearly there have been improvements. Dodd says that you will hate it for the first 75 hours or so. He was spot on. Now the top is coming around. Before over detailed and hard. I could never get used to a hard sound no matter how long I listened.
    So for me break in is a reality.




charles
   
   

[StereoNut]

Edited for brevity...

  One may fool with tubes in the Moscode but I would leave the Dodd as is. Gary has tried different tubes and he prefers the ones chosen.
     That is the reason for the over tubey sound. The 6H30 version isn direct comparison even more neutral than the 12BH VGP model without losing the glory of da tube.
       Two different presentations both good.  Bill expect 200 hours for the pre. About 100 for the Moscode.
       The 6H30 with about 200 is getting there. I tell ya a love hate relationship for sure. ENJOY !!!!!!

charles  

...As far as the "overly tubey sound" goes, you may (?) have mis-read what I wrote earlier in my original post here.  I was surprised that going from all S.S. to eleven (4 in Pre and 7 in Amp) tubes did NOT give me an "overly tubey sound"...

SN

    Bill sorry for the confusion. What I meant was in direct comparison to the 6H30 model the VGP is a richer presentation but not tubey. Did not explain myself properly.

charles

Thanks for the clarification, Charles!

[topround]

How can anyone sell a piece of gear that sounds awful for the first 75 hours?

It should take 2 hours to show its true self, then a few 100 after that to loosen up and and open up a bit.

We all know what burn in  is and have experienced it , that is Audio 101, that's for newbies, not for us.

You have to trust your ears, if something is amiss or bothers you then it is real. Burn in may help bit it will never solve your problem.
And there  lies the crux of the problem.
Building a system is difficult, getting impedances correct, getting gear that works well together, trying to get some degree of synergy,setting up the speakers correctly, addressing the room, these are difficult problems often overlooked for the sake of burn in.
How many people live with systems they are unhappy with, simply because the numbers match, or the price was high, or it looks good, or people say it is great, or it is the flavor of the month, only to be unhappy in the end.

I know I am guilty