Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???

[eleazar]

Hi Bill,
I have a Din to RCA cable that I have to use with a Naim CD5
I could send it you if that would help any in your quest.

P-man

[StereoNut]

Hi Bill,
I have a Din to RCA cable that I have to use with a Naim CD5
I could send it you if that would help any in your quest.

P-man

Thanks, Bill!

If that will allow me to use my Naim pre and run that cable to any other (non-Naim) amp that I swap in/out, that would be great.  It would make all of my amp "auditions" a lot more of an "apples to apples" comparison by keeping the pre-amp the same throughout.  How many pins are on the DIN side of your cable?

SN

[eleazar]

Hi Bill,
I have a Din to RCA cable that I have to use with a Naim CD5
I could send it you if that would help any in your quest.

P-man

Thanks, Bill!

If that will allow me to use my Naim pre and run that cable to any other (non-Naim) amp that I swap in/out, that would be great.  It would make all of my amp "auditions" a lot more of an "apples to apples" comparison by keeping the pre-amp the same throughout.  How many pins are on the DIN side of your cable?

SN

5 Pins

[rollo]

  Sounds like liftoff.


charles

[StereoNut]

Hi Bill,
I have a Din to RCA cable that I have to use with a Naim CD5
I could send it you if that would help any in your quest.

P-man

Thanks, Bill!

If that will allow me to use my Naim pre and run that cable to any other (non-Naim) amp that I swap in/out, that would be great.  It would make all of my amp "auditions" a lot more of an "apples to apples" comparison by keeping the pre-amp the same throughout.  How many pins are on the DIN side of your cable?

SN

5 Pins

Unfortunately, the DIN end of my DIN <> XLR cable between my modded NAC 42 Pre-amp and NAP 250 is a 4-pin DIN. 

SN

[StereoNut]

Round #2

I was lucky enough to have a few buddies come over my place yesterday with more equipment to "mix 'n match" into my system.  We started off by listening to my system intact as a baseline and then started some comparisons.

We swapped in a Miracle Audio all SS pre-amp into place to run with the borrowed Classe' "Twenty Five" that I still had in the house.  The Miracle pre was a BIG improvement over my old Parasound PHP850.  Compared to the Parasound, the Miracle Audio pre had a bigger soundstage, better detail and more "air", so we kept that (Miracle) pre in place for the rest of our separates comparisons. 

Next up, was a pair of Arion Hybrid Monoblocks.  We hooked everything up and all of a sudden had NO music from the right channel!  After re-checking all connections, swapping cables back 'n forth and a lotta "head scratching", we still couldn't figure out what was wrong...??? We solved the problem when we noticed a flash of light at the top of my CD player and that tell-tale burnt electronics smell waffed through the air!  A final puff of smoke rose from the vent holes as I pulled the power cord.  Talk about bad timing!   

At that point, just to eliminate any other possible source of any other problems, we removed my Headphone "switch box" that was hooked up between my speakers and amp.  (My Naim electronics don't have a headphone socket!?!?!)  We still needed a new source - so I ran upstairs to pull an older and cheaper (D500 SE) Cambridge CD player that I had in a second system upstairs.  We hooked up the D500 SE and we continued our (obviously disrupted) listening. There was lotsa extra "horsepower" here with the Arions. They gave us everything the Classe' did, but even more dynamics and bottom end slam. A very nice combo; albeit one that was too expensive for my budget.

We then decided to use the Cambridge D500 SE CD player as a Transport only and hooked it up to a borrowed EE "Dexa" DAC.  This sounded every bit as good as my Cambridge 840C Azur player as a stand alone CDP (before it went up in flames!) and probably better.  (I still was a bit distracted over my 840C dying on me, so I'm not totally sure about this.)  Anyway, we were all pretty much enjoying the music with this set up until everyone's appetite started to override the need for audio!  While I got the "eats" together, I asked one of my friends to re-connect my Naim gear just so I could have some peace of mind that it was only my CD player that was effected earlier.  Well, I was very thankful that all of my remaining electronics were working just fine - thank God!    Matter of fact, that was when we all realized just how much of a positive effect there was by removing my "headphone switch box", because my Naim system sounded so much bigger and better. I forget who, but someone said it was like my system swallowed a handful of steroids between the first listen to it and now!

The last change for the day was swapping in the Rogue Cronus Magnum Integrated with KT120's in it to replace my Naim stuff.  We set things up and let it play some "dinner music" to warm itself up while we ate.  After eats, we listened to what tubes sounded like in my system for the very first time.  It sounded great.  Plenty of power (more than I thought before actually listening) and a midrange that was gorgeous!  A rich, lush sound all around.
 
 

Now, if I could just keep the detail, P.R.A.T. and an extended top and bottom end of my Naim electronics and combine it with the beautiful mids and natural decay of the Rogue tube gear, I'd be in Audio Nirvana!!! 

SN

[richidoo]

That sounds like a lot of fun.  Glad you liked the tubes.

[Barry (NJ)]

Sounds like a nice day and educational too!

You know, it also enlightens us to the fact that we should fully list out our signal chain when asking for advice about improvements. Had I known earlier that you had a switching unit, of any type, between your amp and speakers, my first suggestion would have been to remove it from the system and simplify.

[StereoNut]

Sounds like a nice day and educational too!

You know, it also enlightens us to the fact that we should fully list out our signal chain when asking for advice about improvements. Had I known earlier that you had a switching unit, of any type, between your amp and speakers, my first suggestion would have been to remove it from the system and simplify.

Hi Barry

It was a great day, other than my damned CD player going up in smoke!   

You do make a good point.  I've had that "headphone switch box" in my system for so long now (it was the only way to use headphones with the Naim gear) that I never really gave it much thought.  Even though I don't use headphones much anymore, I kept the "box" in place because it enabled me to turn my system on/off without my amp making a big THUMP! everytime I used it. 

I just have to look at things in a positive light... the CD player would've "crashed and burned" whether the switch box was in the signal chain or not.  And, it didn't happen because somebody did something wrong when we were switching components in/out.  I can only attribute it to my CD players evil, twisted sense of humour!    I can hear the little b@stard thinking outloud to himself now... "Hmnnn, lets see... when would be the most inopportune time to go up in flames?  I guess I'll wait until he's got some of his friends over, so he can be mad and humiliated all at the same time!"

I'll bring the CDP to our club's local repair wiz, Scott (http://www.sgcustomsound.com/) and see whether he thinks it's worth salvaging.

In the meantime my speakers sound better than ever, even with the "B Team" CD player I'm using for now.  All by pulling that damned switchbox out!

SN

[rollo]

Ah yes the "eats" were great meatballs, sausage and pasta, oh my!!
    If I would have seen that switch box it would have been served for dinner as well, oye.
     The Miracle Audio preamp the "Definitive" was used with all the Classe DR25 and Arion amps.  The Rouge on its own had a wonderfull midrange however MIA in the bass and treble regions.
    The Naim gear overall was close to live except for a definite lean character. The Arion, Definitive set up had more weight and bass impact with a very natural treble. All at a higher cost than "da" budget. Bummer.
    I came away with the thought that a different CDP or DAC would introduce some needed weight and body.
     When possible we will try out the Plinius CD 101 and a Promithius DAC. Both have a warmer character with weight.
   It was a fun day with the guys and hearing the mods on the VS speakers was money well spent. The VS are one of the most consistent speakers out there.
   Bill you didn't mention the "QOL" experience ??  It was a kick. I think most were shocked actually.
   Thanks again for the nice day.


charles
   

[StereoNut]

Ah yes the "eats" were great meatballs, sausage and pasta, oh my!!
    If I would have seen that switch box it would have been served for dinner as well, oye.
     The Miracle Audio preamp the "Definitive" was used with all the Classe DR25 and Arion amps.  The Rouge on its own had a wonderfull midrange however MIA in the bass and treble regions.
    The Naim gear overall was close to live except for a definite lean character. The Arion, Definitive set up had more weight and bass impact with a very natural treble. All at a higher cost than "da" budget. Bummer.
    I came away with the thought that a different CDP or DAC would introduce some needed weight and body.
     When possible we will try out the Plinius CD 101 and a Promithius DAC. Both have a warmer character with weight.
   It was a fun day with the guys and hearing the mods on the VS speakers was money well spent. The VS are one of the most consistent speakers out there.
   Bill you didn't mention the "QOL" experience ??  It was a kick. I think most were shocked actually.
   Thanks again for the nice day.


charles
    

My Bad, Charles.  I forgot about the Qol and it wasn't because it wasn't worth mentioning.  I was trying to focus on the swapping in/out of equipment without leaving out any details in my post, but forgot the "cherry on top of the sundae!"  The Qol is a mindboggling product.  It's hard to describe, but once it's engaged in your system, you don't want to bypass it out.  The gain perceived, by the unit putting more audio information "in phase" is the only thing that can make the "with it/without it" comparison a bit difficult.  I wish there was a way to adjust for the SPL difference, to eliminate that ???  Regardless, the Qol is another leap towards the "live event" when it comes to listening to one's stereo.

Someday...$$$...???  

I'm glad you enjoyed the eats, liked my modded V-4's (especially WITHOUT the "headphone switch box" in-line any longer) and had a good time.  Taking that damned box out was like having my speakers upgraded to another level higher!    

Next will be CD player/Transport/DAC tryouts.

SN

[rpf]

Ah yes the "eats" were great meatballs, sausage and pasta, oh my!!
    If I would have seen that switch box it would have been served for dinner as well, oye.
     The Miracle Audio preamp the "Definitive" was used with all the Classe DR25 and Arion amps.  The Rouge on its own had a wonderfull midrange however MIA in the bass and treble regions.
    The Naim gear overall was close to live except for a definite lean character. The Arion, Definitive set up had more weight and bass impact with a very natural treble. All at a higher cost than "da" budget. Bummer.
    I came away with the thought that a different CDP or DAC would introduce some needed weight and body.
     When possible we will try out the Plinius CD 101 and a Promithius DAC. Both have a warmer character with weight.
   It was a fun day with the guys and hearing the mods on the VS speakers was money well spent. The VS are one of the most consistent speakers out there.
   Bill you didn't mention the "QOL" experience ??  It was a kick. I think most were shocked actually.
   Thanks again for the nice day.


charles
    

Second the praise of the eats! That was one fine sauce!

The Naim gear did what Naim gear does: unrivaled PRAT. And it was very smooth. I enjoyed it. It did, as Charles said, have a definite lean character, and the bass, IMO, was MIA. As Charles also said, a better (tube, IMHO) CDP probably would have added some needed weight and dimension.

I disagree that the bass and treble was MIA with the Rogue. And yes, it is mine. It did not, of course, match the definition in the bass and treble of the SS gear, so perhaps it's just a matter of semantics.

The Arion amps were very interesting. Great bass and a natural treble. It seemed to me that the mid-range was recessed but the amps really didn't have enough time to warm up. I would like to have heard them more, but unfortunately we only got to listen to them for a short while as we ran out of time.

I had to leave before the QOL was inserted so I avoided being "shocked" but I'm sure I'll have the experience in the near future.     

I was very impressed with the upgraded VR4s. Really nice speakers. And Bill is a great host! Thank you, Bill.

Rob

[StereoNut]

Update 7/30/12

It seems the consensus to "get where I wanted to go" (read: keep the Naim P.R.A.T. and yet introduce some weight and tube warmth into my system) was to try my Naim Pre-amp with other non-Naim amps.  After speaking to my Naim guru buddy Neil, I realized I had the proper 4-pin DIN to a (L<>R) RCA cable I needed to do this, so off I went to explore...

Yes, I know that we're supposed to borrow equipment and audition things in our systems to hear what works synergistically and gives us the sound we're striving for first, but I was a baaaaaad boy this weekend   and bought a used hybrid amp to try out.

I found (and bought) a used New York Audio Labs Moscode 600 amp that's been modded by George Kaye.

• The Basic Mod
• Direct wire
• Maxi caps
• Gold inputs
• Edison Price binding posts

So much for being patient and "doing the right thing"...  

Anyway, I've only gotten to listen for about an hour or so on Sunday once I got it home, but initially it's sounding real nice.  Considering it provides more than 4X the WPC that my Naim NAP250 does (70 vs. 300 WPC) the Moscode sounds effortless at normal listening levels.  

Obviously, I'll have to get a lot more listening time in to really decide if I like the change or not.  I guess that time will tell!

T.B.C.....

[richidoo]

Nice choice! Buying stuff used is almost as good as borrowing. You can usually get out with minimal cost. If you choose wisely your education value is worth the small loss per trade. Moscode used to offer trade in of 300/600s towards new amps. The current 402Au is a gem, one of my fav amps.

[StereoNut]

Nice choice! Buying stuff used is almost as good as borrowing. You can usually get out with minimal cost. If you choose wisely your education value is worth the small loss per trade. Moscode used to offer trade in of 300/600s towards new amps. The current 402Au is a gem, one of my fav amps.

Thanks, Rich. 

Considering how infrequent these amps show up on the used market and what the average re-sale price is, I bought it "right enough" $$$ to not get hurt too bad if I decide it's not for me.   If worse comes to worse, I can sell it to Tmazz for his son Bobby to mate up with the one he already has and run 'em as 600 Watt Monoblocks!

As far as the trade-in policy goes; I don't know if it still exists, but the price differential between a used 600 and the current 402Au is way beyond my budget for me to pay the difference.

I'll put that on my "someday" list.  

In the meanwhile, I have to buy a few dozen pairs of movie passes for my wife and daughter so I can get them out of my listening room for a few hours on a few nights.  This way I can get in a fair share of listening time in.

To be continued...