taking the stand for Sand

[shep]

Although I lurk conscientiously, I haven't had much to contribute of late because my system has "stabilized" and anyway I'm too broke to change anything, even though I know I need "better" speakers. I turned on the juice today, after not listening for a couple of weeks at all. I was both amazed and pleased. The analytical mind was absent...just the ears were present. So why this topic? just a little contribution since I see there are new people on board and since I just feel like sharing my experience. Well that is all true but also since I feel like I am in a minority of one and most of what goes on concerns tubes and more tubes and I feel decidedly unconcerned, having made my choice and having no reason to doubt that. In fact, the whole constant topic about tube-rolling, here and elsewhere, gives me a splitting headache (choices) and makes me grateful I didn't got that way.
For those of you who don't remember or know, I went the route of a very tweaked-out, integrated ICE amplifier. It would be boring to go thru the whole story again. Suffice to say that if you take an ICE module, preferably the sweet spot which I think is the lower powered one like mine (2X75 W), tweak it to the gills and pay very careful attention to interconnects (yes Dorothy, cable do make a huge difference), what you get back is a sound that can hold it's own in very elite company. How do I know this? because I have a friend who is very knowledgeable, of years experience...who has an extremely special and like-wise tweaked set of SET amps, straight-wired to mono pots and after hours of comparing, with all kinds of music, we can only hear the difference by being audiophile nutters who listen for the sound of a squirrel scratching his left ear in the far left corner or slightly nearer the speakers. The scratch is just as tuneful, tone-full, dynamic and musical, which ever amps we use.  Just offering my opinion guys. Tubes do not rule. It's just one of several paths to the same end. Over and out

[BobM]

I have a somewhat similar philosophy. I often hear how "tonality" is king, and I agree. However, if you are in this hobby and equipment you are buying have tonality issues then there is a problem. So for my purposes, tonality is a given.

Moving on to the next stage is extension. Sure, you can enjoy chamber music on single driver speakers, but if you are into all aspects of music like I am them I need both top and bottom end extension in my rig. This is not a given and has to be worked at to get it right. Sure, a sub will not only improve the bottom end extension but it also seems to open up the top end. Adding weight to the bottom opens up the top? Yup, it's all about balance. But that top end needs to be pure and sweet and extended, and the bottom needs to be tuneful and not one note bass. This is also where I think dymanics play a role, at least the macro kind. Of course that's all about amp-speaker pairing as well as extension. This is where high end components, and tweaking, seems to make a hell of a difference too.

Thirdly, its about space, ambiance, soundstaging, air .. those hard to qualify and quantify little things that are the difference between a good system and a great system. Room treatments and the room itself, speaker placement, tube rolling, teflon caps, better interconnects and speaker cables, power conditioning, power cords, etc. all make a difference in this regard. This is where the hobby gets interesting and where your own subjecting and objective opinion, as well as your budget, come into play. This is for you and you alone to decide relative importance and satisfaction. It also means you need to balance detailed presentation with musical satisfaction. Warmth with transparency. Beauty with analytical capability. We each see these things differently. Unfortunately this is also where you see many arguments occur in the forums. But ultimately it's your ears (and pocketbook) that need to decide what is right for this third element. Get this right and you can sit back and just enjoy things and banish that nervosa. Or can you. This is the tweak spot, where it always seems like it can be just a little better. Just a little bit more micro-dynamic ... oops, I seem to have lost <whatever> now.

Oh well, it is a hobby, so if you're not (eventually) doing something else differently, or experimenting with another cable or tube, or hearing another system that does something just a bit better tyhan yours and trying to emulate it, then you will be bored. But I do enjoy those periods when I am not thinking of that and just enjoying music.

[rollo]

  Sand or glass can reward us with glorious sound. There is no clear winner.
  Saying that, exposure to many different systems or components over the years allows one to discern their likes and dislikes in audio reproduction.
  In general it is the synergy of said components wether sand or glass that give us the final result. Different is usually the outcome. Now what is preferred is subjective. There can be no clear winner in general just for the listener.
  What sounds good in one system can sound awful in another. One size does not fit all.
  Tweakers like glass as it allows them to dabble with NOS tubes and the brand of the day. It can be fun and rewarding. As well as frustrating and expensive. Sand offers convenience and is usually less expensive in the long run.
  So I guess whatever floats your sonic desires within ones budget. Sand or glass the choice is yours no one is better than the other. Just what the listener prefers.


charles
SMA
 

[StereoNut]

It's refreshing to see someone "go against the grain" every once in a while, Shep.  At the same time, before this escalates into a battle on whether "tube be or not tube be" (I'm sure William Shakespeare just rolled over in his grave! ) all of us need to remind ourselves that our beloved hobby is NOT a matter of "right or wrong", but of what each of us prefer.

Anyway, the real point I wanted to make here is about critical listening vs. just enjoying the music.  In expectations of my Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen.III speakers being packed up (soon I hope) to send in for upgrades, I bought an inexpensive pair of Onix X-Omni speakers at a close-out price as a temporary replacement.  I know they (the X-Omni's) are in no way as capable as my VR-4's are, but they will give me something to listen to while my Von's are gone.

The X-Omni's have been hooked up for about two weeks now (nice little floor-standers BTW) and I guess since my expectations are lowered (compared to my VR-4's) I don't find the need to analyze every little thing right now.  I just have been "kickin' back" and listening to the music, NOT my system. No tweaking, no adjusting, no concentrating on specific audiophile "cues" in a recording - just put something on and enjoy it.   I don't even bother with always having to be "in the sweet spot" anymore!  I find that it's much more relaxing to sit in my old comfy recliner (which is far off to the right of my right speaker) and just lose myself in the music!

Maybe my approach to audio has been all wrong for all of these years!?! 

[richidoo]

Good topic and good posts guys!
I enjoy tube listening on occasion, tubes make good space and natural treble and of course they make sonic glow. But 90% of my listening is on my friend Sol's i60 integrated SS amp. It is the most natural treble of any SS amp I've heard, plus stomping macho bass and utterly clean and neutral midrange. No excitement or romance (a little in the bass) but the music is better served by lower distortion. When I started in hifi I liked being entertained by the equipment, so tubes are a big part of that. Lately I recoil from the cost of equipment entertainment and long for simpler higher value appliance for music listening. That's why I diy. Usually you have to pay much more for SS to sound as good as tubes, but with Sol's designs that is not true. The i60 costs a fraction of my tube amps, even a fraction of any tube amp. Another reason I prefer SS for most of the listening is that I can leave it on all the time without guilt of wasting tube life, and without wasting energy on tube heat. My amps are turned on at 7am and turned off at 10-11pm. When I did that with tubes I had to retube every 10 months.  The bass response is the biggest reason for me to use SS. Detail is not just for midrange, and low freqs need low impedance amp to make detail.

But I keep the tubes for now, thinking that they have some kind of magic that brings the music to a higher level, for special occasion listening. And when I do switch to tubes the feeling of magic is confirmed. It is 3rd order harmonic distortion, and I can hear it but it is fun. I can't really afford to keep it just for occasional fun, but I keep it, so there must be something about power tubes that keeps me hangin on.

[BobM]

I think it was in the recent Absolute Sound that someone (Robert Harley-?) said that at the state of the art level, both tubes and SS have more or less reached an equilibrium. They both sound exceptional, and very similar. SS gets the textures right now and tubes get the control now.

But of course, we are all/mostly playing in the dregs of what used to be state of the art 5-10 years ago. So we don't necessarily know what the hell he is hearing and talking about. Tradeoffs are inevitable.

I was just trying to point out (above) my philosophy on making these tradeoffs. Personally I think a combo of SS and tubes are necessary to make a "system" sound good.  It's the blend of the two that does it for me.

[StereoNut]

...Personally I think a combo of SS and tubes are necessary to make a "system" sound good.  It's the blend of the two that does it for me.

"LESS FILLING, TASTES GREAT!" 

[tmazz]

Personally I think a combo of SS and tubes are necessary to make a "system" sound good. 

And you are not alone in that philosophy even on an individual componet basis. There are very few pure tube designs being produced today, even at the top end of the price spectrum. Audio Reseach started incorporating solid state deices into their tube amps quite a few years ago under the thought that there are things that tubes do better than solid state and visa versa and they made an effort to use the best "tool for the job" at each point in a circuit design in order to get the best overall sound from the unit as a whole.

[StereoNut]

Hey Richidoo - Nice signature line!     I am truly honored! 

[richidoo]

Hey SN, I recognize genius when I see it!   

[BobM]

[StereoNut]

Thanks, gentlemen! 

[Triode Pete]

among us idiots!  

[_Scotty_]

I like my SS equipment for many of the same reasons cited by richidoo. It's cheap to run and can be left on continuously in addition, as my system has evolved over time the window into the music has become progressively clearer and larger. Masking of low level information has been drastically lowered with the latest changes to my preamp and poweramp. This has been accomplished by using solid polymer aluminum electrolytics as coupling caps. In my system they are used as the DC blocking capacitor in the feedback loop of my power amp and phono-stage. They are also used as coupling caps on the output of my class A buffer line-stage and my USB DAC.
 When these caps replaced the BlackGate and Panasonic FM caps in my system, the improvement was so dramatic that I basically had a brand new stereo system.
 If these caps are applicable to your circuitry they offer an disproportionally large improvement. When their cost is factored in it's a virtual no-brainer, they average $3.00 apiece. Now that's what I call technological progress, thank-you computer industry!
Scotty

[rollo]

 Aye Scotty dem der Blackgates are quite over rated. thanks for the heads up.


charles
SMA