Let's talk about pre-amps!

[richidoo]

Yes, WEEZ, that's right. I only asked out of curiosity because the idea is cool and I do a lot of comparing thanks to the generosity of local friends letting me sample their stuff. I like to think I am not deluding myself when comparing things, but having an absolute reference is always a challenge.

Steve your answer is enough to get the jist of what your thinking about. Paraphrasing: 'Consider all the variables, try to eliminate them when possible. Don't use rubber wire.'   


Bunkerella? Bunkybabe? Bunkilicious? Bunky, since you two are so close, you really should have the privilege of naming our new Emmisary of Goodwill.

[Bunky]

  <-  Suzy Creamcheese  

[WEEZ]

Bouncing boobies might make me want to take my pants off and chase my wife around the house later (just kidding...well, maybe not )

...back to preamps..

WEEZ

[steve]

Thanks Weez, Rich, and others. I appreciate your comments and support. I am revising this post, and wanted you to see the kind of crap that happens behind the scenes to a manufactuer.

This is probably a rarity for most. I do want to say Bryan, good question, as I want to help the consumer, but not the back biting competitors.

Here is the link to a very interesting article:
http://www.boundforsound.com/reviews.htm#Truth

Alot of 'games', backbiting, and harm goes on behind the scenes that you may not be aware of Bryan. Most don't know what I am about to disclose because manufacturers just do not disclose this kind of stuff. What I am about to disclose is only a small portion.

About 8 years ago, I had a customer notify me that I had part of my webpage copied to a forum, with people attacking it. The webpage was just a simple amp I thought would be good for backround music, nothing special, but it was tube and customers did like the sound. I did not even know tubes were coming back, let alone DHT amps.

I responded to defend my simple amp. Well, I got as many as 35 email virus attacks in one day. Virus attacks have happened several times since, always whenever someone brings up my products. I am sure this sort of thing happens to others. But for awhile now, that has pretty much died out. I personally know another manufacturer left that forum after all the attacks on him. It was shill city, totally corrupt.

As one can see, I am definitely not part of the current establishment, those competitors who treat each other with silk gloves. Anyone outside that group gets the axe.

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Another time, a customer recommended my 10A when one was asking for recommendations. The post was deleted 1 1/2 days later. I posted and asked what happened to the ad. I was accused of grandstanding and that it was never posted. Other witnesses came forth and they were soundly denounced as well.

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I have had two bad episodes with other reviewers. About 4 1/2 years ago, the first reviewer had a fellow reviewer offer a pitance for one of my products (he/she liked it that much) and a review was forth coming (shady deal the public does not know about.). When I declined and offered to pay shipping the demo pre back, the unit was returned in a single pristine box before I could send shipping money.

When I opened it up (front desk witness) the preamp was totally gutted, inside and outside.  A total loss. UPS sent the preamp back to the reviewer. I never saw it again. A few weeks later, I received a check from their attorney for the tiny pitance, after I complained.

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The second case, I was invited by gent X from Y magazine to demo my product for 2 different groups, in another state. (I had previously mentioned I did not want any reviewers, just consumers.) The night before I was to leave, X notifies me that he is a reviewer. Like an idiot, I went.

The listening room had a hardwood floor with one small throw down rug. The walls were bare, just a couch. It echoed like an empty old cube room. The system used an integrated amp, an active xover with gain, thru 20 feet of ICs to my preamp. Well, one can imagine how it sounded. Echo and noise in abundance. Afterall, the gain of the system was similar to using a phono stage, but without the RIAA equalization. So many stages it was impossible to actually hear how the component sounded.

When I arrived home sunday night, a review had already been written and posted at several forums. Of course it was not that good. How could anyone write a review with such a venue and system? The reviewer was obviously a shill. Reviewer X posted once or twice on the forum condemning another poster for his concern with the severe echo problem. To my knowledge, reviewer X never posted before or after on that forum. I also never sold another component in that area again.

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Just a few examples of why I don't just give out critical info anymore. I have to keep the edge, or competitors, and shills will exploit me for all it is worth.

ps. This is no reflection on Mike. I am sure he wants only the best.

Ps. Maybe I should tell you about a gent who came over, pleading for me to fix a tube amp he couldn't make work. 'It was for his home'. Well, I fixed it in 20 minutes, and then he marketed that amp. Then he trashed me.

[bpape]

Oh God - now you guys are back to dropping trou! 

No offense meant Steve.  I just didn't see a testing methodology as a proprietary thing.

Edit: Steve posted while I was posting...

Sorry to hear about all that Steve.  We're not quite so hardcore here - we are just serious nut cases but somewhat under control.  I understand your hesitence.  I also understand to a point your methodology hard as it may be to replicate.

Bryan

[richidoo]

This is a tough business. With the love I have for this hobby I should have started a business in it myself by now because that's how I usually support my expensive hobbies. I saw right from the start that this one wouldn't work for me, because I have no chops to offer in creating something of value to a seasoned audiophile, and even if I did they are tough to please and fickle. I am my own worst example of fickleness. I give you a lot of credit for sticking with your passion over the years despite the challenges.

This forum is a safe place for audiophiles and manufacturers to meet and chat without fear of being harmed materially or egos bruised. Like WEEZ said it is really just about sharing how we enjoy music. We are really trying to keep it that way.  It is very cool to have a heavy hitter electronic designer on the forum, so I hope you will continue to make it a bad habit. Hopefully it will work out well for you and your business, too.
Rich

[steve]

Thanks guys. I do love this hobby and if I had all the money in the world, I would be experimenting all the time. I would love to build my own recording studio just for the challenge. Of course the electronics would be all tube, and minimalistic, yet still get the job done.

I won't be going anywhere, love this hobby and forum too much.

Got some other ideas too, but still in thinking stage.

No problem Bpape. It took years to develop it; looking and testing for any flaws. I have to keep the edge, and this is a big edge. I can also test ICs.

Time for din din and rest.

[thechairguy]

wow - just found this thread - muy interesante 

My tube amps have adjustable gain.....as I've dialed them down in gain over time, the system has improved immeasurably.  It took tube noise out (these were PA amps originally, so the tubes were likely not picked originally for quietness) and allowed the pre-amp to provide gain in my system.  All the better, in the end.

Great to hear more of Steve Sammet's thoughts and theories.....I always thought he 'pulled punches' too often over at AudioCircle.  Between virus attacks and other assorted screwings, now I understand why 

John / TCG

[steve]

Hi John,

     Looking back, it does seem somewhat humerous receiving virus attacks because I did not  use DHT tubes/NOS tubes. But then I guess I wandered into their 'territory' and am not an insider. Luckily, the virus attacks never affected operation though.

I think it is also interesting that some older coupling caps which sound close to a straightwire (when tested) aren't manufacturered/sold anymore, and have been replaced by  some highly touted 'colored' sounding caps (I haven't checked every cap yet). Some are redesigns, others are new product.

I thought the differences between the caps might be just minute changes, picky differences. Instead I was shocked by how far off they were. Pretty amazing. (One brand brightens the sound while another brand defocused the sound and plumped the bass.)

(There can be two different sets of parts. One is marketed to the consumer and one to the manufacturer. So DIY folks do not necessarily get the best parts, only what is offered. Only what parts work with certain tubes that are being pushed.)

This warps the way tubes are reported to sound. Unfortunately, it is the tubes that take the brunt of the criticism.

Of course, not every tube (new or nos) is good. There are differences to be sure. But imo one must not lump them all together, but rather rate them on an individual basis. Even then, I would take any reports on how any particular newer tube sounds with a grain of salt.