Author Topic: Let's talk about pre-amps!  (Read 39864 times)

Offline steve

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2007, 11:11:31 AM »
My neighbor has a Krell CDP/Integrated amp and Sonus Faber speakers.  The amp has a feature that allows an outboard preamp.  I took my Modwright over there when I had it.  We both were bowled over with how much it improved the sound.  I left the pre with him for a couple of weeks.  Over that time he had another buddy over and tried many tests with it.  At the end he decided it didn't change the sound much at all vs. the integrated by itself.

I didn't have opportunities past the first one to compare, but I know what I heard that one time - the tubes were Very Welcome.  I can't fault his longer-term opinion either.  Who knows about such things?  The Moddie is certainly on the clean/fast end of the tube pre spectrum.

I generally want my preamp to add a little space/tone, but everyone's got a spin.

Hi miklorsmith,

I agree with you that the Moddie is on the fast end of the tube pre spectrum. I spent some time with one and it does tilt towards the sterile side compared to a straightwire.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 11:38:30 AM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
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miklorsmith

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2007, 01:02:36 PM »
To me, it was more "tube" than nothing or SS, but certainly not euphonic in the stereotypical (heh) sense.

Offline steve

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2007, 01:24:29 PM »
To me, it was more "tube" than nothing or SS, but certainly not euphonic in the stereotypical (heh) sense.

Hi Mik,

I did some testing vs a piece of wire and the instruments come off as washed out, kinda like a ghost half vaporized in a movie. It was not grainy and it was dynamic, which is good. But the instruments/voices certainly did not sound as organic as a piece of wire. It really was not that close in that department.
 
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

miklorsmith

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2007, 02:09:42 PM »
I certainly didn't have that impression, but it's long gone now so I can't confirm.  Maybe it didn't like your amp somehow.  I definitely would like to hear the tube-rectified version or even better, the 36.5.

opnly bafld

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2007, 02:26:47 PM »
Well, there have been around 10 people who I have done some testing with my 11A, using different methods and different speakers.

Some, I suggested that they should hear a difference when I take the 11A in and out of the system. I don't know how I could have made a suggestion any clearer and shot myself in the foot.

I stated to one or two that I was going to make a change to the 11A itself and it should sound different. That should also have killed what I was hoping for, no difference.

I asked others to just listen with the pre in and out. Check for any differences, width, depth, soundstage, focus, bass, treble etc. Whatever.

Not one has been able to tell the difference when I had it in the system and out.

The 10A is almost as close.



You mean you tricked me. :shock:  :rofl:

I have used my 10a with 3 VERY different amps (ss-tube/ss-tube) and it has sounded superb with each.
I guess I like preamps, maybe sometimes more IS more(?).

Lin

Offline steve

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2007, 02:35:49 PM »
I certainly didn't have that impression, but it's long gone now so I can't confirm.  Maybe it didn't like your amp somehow.  I definitely would like to hear the tube-rectified version or even better, the 36.5.

I hope it will be closer to the music, but it will be only an estimation.

That is because all manufacturers use "voicing", which simply means they listen to the new component in their own reference system. But how accurate is the rest of their system? When one hears the differences between DACs, let alone speakers, it is hard to tell what is 'on' and what is not.

Others don't actually use several different methods (this to insure the results are accurate) when evalulating the component vs a wire.

There is no problem with the amp as the input capacitance is very minimal, along with low capacitance of the ICs. The source, CD player, saw the same input Z in both the pre and amp. Of course, the amp saw the same speaker.

I am not surprised at the differences in sound between different preamps, and between preamps and a straight wire. The main problem is that no one actually does any actual testing. So it is no more than a crap shoot if it sounds like a wire.

Opnfld, thanks.

 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 10:29:13 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline richidoo

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2007, 02:49:55 PM »
I believe that a low distortion system is most enjoyable, even over romantic sweetness. 'Real' is amazing and awesome, which is where my head wants to be.

That's why I was intrigued by this thread about your 11A preamp with no sonic signature which is completely transparent except for gain. The reason I am so curious is because like many of us, my system already has too much voltage gain. My weakest source (in voltage output), SB3, has an external linear power supply making 2A @5V which enhances bass and body tremendously, as expected changing from the stock POS, oops... I mean PS... ;)   I run SB at 3/4 throttle max. My tuna runs at 1/5 throttle, as does my phono pre, all with their own volume pots coloring things up. These are all low output impedance (~220-600Z) driving my Manley Snapper monoblocks with 450kohms input impedence directly through Grover's interconnects with very low resistance and capacitance. They all sound awesome except for some digital crap from the SB with the digital VC, and I'm not sure that's not imagination anyway. So, I can't understand how these sources would need any additional voltage or current gain to drive these amps to their potential.

And Yet ! when Stereofool or Carlman bring over their Mac or AR preamps, the sound seems to be fuller. It is even a little fuller sounding than the built in 6922>6SN7 preamp in my integrated amp. Is this fullness and body that their preamps add actually a coloration deliberately added as a voicing preference of the designer, or is the fullness a function of the preamp actually enabling better signal transfer from source to amp resulting in a sound that is actually truer to the recording?

Passive resistive, optical and magnetic volume controls are growing in popularity because they are cheaper than high quality active stages (no expensive PS to build), and they provide the functionality of a controller with volume control and switching. But are passive users missing something? Concensus among cognoscenti seems to be yes. But I would like to know what a truly transparent preamp is doing to the source signal (while also attenuating it to a lower level) that makes it a "better" signal for the amplifier. I guess a resistive attenuator will restrict current as it lowers voltage so providing a current gain source is valuable after the VC. But with magnetics you don't have that problem, and yet Promitheus is still selling a tube buffer stage for his TVC and apparently it makes a big difference. Is it artistic voicing, or basic physics? I'm sure it sounds great whatever the reason... ;)

Even the better phono preamps where 60dB of voltage gain is really needed are often separate components now, offering their own 2V+ low impedance signal. On the other hand, the Altmann BYOB amp I have been reading about has <10k inputZ and lower gain than normal due to battery PS, so there is still a case for voltage gain in a preamp. Since 11A is reviewed as one of the very best preamps available for sound quality, I'm sure you will have some insight into my confusion. Thanks for playing along Steve! :) Fun thread!
Rich

miklorsmith

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2007, 03:16:37 PM »
I've listened to my Red Wine amps for a long time with basically no preamp.  Overall, the sound is not fleshed out enough.  The system transforms into a butterfly with my Lamm preamp.

With the Yamamoto amp, tone enhancement is less needed and in fact less present but overall I don't want an invisible preamp.  If I did, I'd probably buy a TVC passive.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 03:31:33 PM by miklorsmith »

Offline richidoo

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2007, 03:33:31 PM »
Yeah, that's what I hear too, and mine is not modded beyond the PS. Sounds better on a good tube pre, but how does it compare to what's on the disc? The disc sounds thin on systems without a preamp, like car stereo, ipod, etc  A-HA!  Maybe they are the true reference?   :lol:

Offline steve

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2007, 03:36:55 PM »
H Richidoo,

Oh boy, you brought alot of questions.

"I believe that a low distortion system is most enjoyable, even over romantic sweetness. 'Real' is amazing and awesome, which is where my head wants to be.

That's why I was intrigued by this thread about your 11A preamp with no sonic signature which is completely transparent except for gain. The reason I am so curious is because like many of us, my system already has too much voltage gain. My weakest source (in voltage output), SB3, has an external linear power supply making 2A @5V which enhances bass and body tremendously, as expected changing from the stock POS, oops... I mean PS... ;)   I run SB at 3/4 throttle max. My tuna runs at 1/5 throttle, as does my phono pre, all with their own volume pots coloring things up. These are all low output impedance (~220-600Z) driving my Manley Snapper monoblocks with 450kohms input impedence directly through Grover's interconnects with very low resistance and capacitance. They all sound awesome except for some digital crap from the SB with the digital VC, and I'm not sure that's not imagination anyway. So, I can't understand how these sources would need any additional voltage or current gain to drive these amps to their potential."

It seems everyone is adding gain, but then adding circuitry adds profits. I wish the different manufacturer's of different parts of the system would just design what is required and not add the extra's.

"And Yet ! when Stereofool or Carlman bring over their Mac or AR preamps, the sound seems to be fuller. It is even a little fuller sounding than the built in 6922>6SN7 preamp in my integrated amp. Is this fullness and body that their preamps add actually a coloration deliberately added as a voicing preference of the designer, or is the fullness a function of the preamp actually enabling better signal transfer from source to amp resulting in a sound that is actually truer to the recording?"

Probably neither. They probably do just a "voicing" session with their reference systems. I don't read where they do any exotic testing of any kind. Correct me if I am wrong though.

"Passive resistive, optical and magnetic volume controls are growing in popularity because they are cheaper than high quality active stages (no expensive PS to build),"

Actually, the optical, magnetic actually need a ps to work. Power has to be supplied to the lighting circuitry in the optical and magnetics to work.


"and they provide the functionality of a controller with volume control and switching. But are passive users missing something? Concensus among cognoscenti seems to be yes. But I would like to know what a truly transparent preamp is doing to the source signal (while also attenuating it to a lower level) that makes it a "better" signal for the amplifier."

It really does nothing to the source signal, just passes it with some gain. The differences one hears is the other preamps coloring the music.


"I guess a resistive attenuator will restrict current as it lowers voltage so providing a current gain source is valuable after the VC. But with magnetics you don't have that problem, and yet Promitheus is still selling a tube buffer stage for his TVC and apparently it makes a big difference. Is it artistic voicing, or basic physics? I'm sure it sounds great whatever the reason... ;)"

Not a current gain as you mention earlier in the sentence. The buffer stage is probably "colored" sounding if it changes the sound. The high input Z of the amp should not load a cd player at all, unless it goes quite low.

"Even the better phono preamps where 60dB of voltage gain is really needed are often separate components now, offering their own 2V+ low impedance signal."

And how good is their buffer stage? I would check their line preamps to get an idea.

"On the other hand, the Altmann BYOB amp I have been reading about has <10k inputZ and lower gain than normal due to battery PS, so there is still a case for voltage gain in a preamp."

I wish the input Z was higher, but their design may preclude such. For instance if they use a bipolar transistor, the input Z is quite low. If they lower the current through the transistor to raise the input Z, the transistor sounds different and that is what they might want to stay away from.

"Since 11A is reviewed as one of the very best preamps available for sound quality, I'm sure you will have some insight into my confusion."

In general, I find audio becoming a mixed bag with alot of manufacturer's competing for every part of the system. If the dac has alot of gain, why; and why so much gain in the amplifier? Now phono stages are coming up with their own schemes with more gain so as to crowd the line preamp market.

Only problem is that in such configurations, how does one check these extra stages vs a straight wire? Very difficult. I wonder if the phono makers actually check out the "preamp" stage(s) first before designing the phono stage itself? I doubt it.

 

Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline steve

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2007, 03:40:07 PM »
I've listened to my Red Wine amps for a long time with basically no preamp.  Overall, the sound is not fleshed out enough.  The system transforms into a butterfly with my Lamm preamp.

With the Yamamoto amp, tone enhancement is less needed and in fact less present but overall I don't want an invisible preamp.  If I did, I'd probably buy a TVC passive.

Wouldn't it be better to have an invisible preamp and a source, amp, and speakers that were more accurate, not sterile, so the synergy would be better, and more organic and live sounding?

I would think compensating a sterile system with patch work would not satisfy in the long run?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 06:11:38 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline steve

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2007, 03:48:33 PM »
"Yeah, that's what I hear too, and mine is not modded beyond the PS. Sounds better on a good tube pre, but how does it compare to what's on the disc?"

"The disc sounds thin on systems without a preamp, like car stereo, ipod, etc  A-HA!  Maybe they are the true reference?   :lol: "


Well, that is where some work comes in Rich  :-P. Once the "invisible" pre is installed (remember it sounds fuller than one thinks), the preamp is one less component to worry about. Now one just has to audition the other components in one's system and continue working out the details. Remember, the components you have already tried sounded thin in your system, so you have already eliminated some already. Only 10,000 to go. :rofl:

I hope I am not insulting anyone. If so, my apologies.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 06:15:20 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

miklorsmith

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2007, 03:54:04 PM »
Theory?  Sure.  Reality/experience?  No.

The Zu Definition Pros are not warm speakers, but they're far from sterile.  They relay what comes in quite faithfully.  Some folks have said the Red Wine Signature amps are SET-like.  Some have called the RWAs "warm", but I disagree with that.  In fact, I always thought the Definitions were inherently warm speakers until I ran the Lessloss direct to the RWA's.  I agree with the SET description in their smoothness and liquidity but not regarding the Big Tone that SET amps pull off so easily.  

The Lessloss DAC setup I'm using now is what I think folks would call invisible.  The Lessloss direct to the RWAs is quite a sound, deserving of respect but not engendering love.  How it is that good preamps can put the rosin on strings and the sonorous vibration of instrumental wood I do not know, nor do I much care.

Flipping the question around, if "no sound" is the goal, why use tubes or any active circuitry?  Rich is right, gain certainly isn't an issue in most systems.  I'd go with a TVC or even resistive passive with hi-gain sources and be done for cheap.

Alas, I can't see going that direction.

Great discussion, folks.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2007, 04:05:04 PM »
Hey Steve, your "power supply" is certainly not sagging under the load of the inquisition here. Thanks for stepping up and having some fun with us. You are a sport.  Sorry about the load of questions. Mostly rhetorical when I get to ranting like that.

No need to worry about stepping toes here. We love the straight talk, but watchout you might get some back! hehe

I need to read and think about what you and Mike have offered before I embarrass myself further.

Funny enough, a friend is bringing his new CJ preamp over tonight. Straight wire with gain - NOT! But I can't wait to hear it. Don't remember which model.
Rich

miklorsmith

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Re: Let's talk about pre-amps!
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2007, 04:09:00 PM »
. . . a friend is bringing his new CJ preamp over tonight. Straight wire with gain - NOT! But I can't wait to hear it.

CJ is definitely of the Voiced camp - betcha love it!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 07:20:40 AM by miklorsmith »