Ice is nice!

[shep]

 
Got it! wanna hear more?  So what we have here is tweaked version of the Aeolus, as sold by Audio Magus. I don't know what he did yet (cagey guy) a part from using the resistor ladder-type pot. It's scary dead silent. Zero noise floor (refer to the review of the Wyred on 6 Moons). Well yes, it does work! And yes it makes music and sounds nothing like a Tripath based amp. Loads of power. I'm driving a room too big for my speakers and have a problem with bass reproduction due to a lousy wooden floor. Yuck. The midrange is reference class. The treble is a bit polite. Sound-staging is believable but not something to drool over. The stepped pot is a joy with just the right number of clicks and doesn't leap from soft to loud but goes up in increments that are perfectly judged. The gain (by design) is on the low side so you have to open it to 3 oclock and beyond to get a sense of realistic volume. As this is freshly built, I expect a long break-in. So far the sound is a bit edgy and hard. It will need time to settle down. I'm just letting it run non-stop for the next two weeks.

[miklorsmith]

Sweet Shep!  You're back in bizniss!   

I don't suppose you have any photos or linkedness?

I look forward to hearing about the break-in process.  Is it real . . .

[shep]

http://www.audio-magus.com/
amplifiers/solid state.
Is break in real or the amp? Both.
It's presently running non-stop. I'm trying to get details of it's private parts from Mr. Mardis  :shock:Nice piece of kit. Don't know why but he sent me one with a silver face plate and no power light (maybe a pre-production plate?) I am holding back on opening it up.  Iwant to change the fuse for something better and put in some of that special paper that soaks of RF and other nasties.

[Carlman]

So far it sounds like a typical edgy switching amp.  Seems like you're chasing down gremlins and scratching your head as to how to make it sound like you want... I hope between your efforts and burn-in, that it smoothes out nicely.  So far I've only heard one chip amp I liked at all.. but I haven't loved any of them.  So, I'm a bit of a skeptic on ice-power-digital-switching-class-d-etc.- type amps.  Best of luck!
-C

[shep]

If I had but the cash, I woudn't be doing it this way! I would spend big bucks and have something like a Pass First Watt etc.I went this route because it was novel, cheap and fun to collaborate with a very talented respected tweaker like M. Mardis. MY "mistakes" are cheap. No disrespect, but people spend more making themselves crazy with tube rolling than I have on my whole system! I really like the concept of small, light, cool, powerful without using power and the basic simplicity of the whole thing. Neither Tripath not Ice can be described as edgy if they are designed right. If I have made a mistake it is with the speakers, which because they use small drivers and Transmission-line to overcome their limitations, are very demanding. Live and learn! 

[Carlman]

I've learned fat, heavy, and expensive make for good sound for me.
I like the idea of a light and efficient system but I need the gravitas that only a meaty system can produce to be satisfied. 
TL speakers are also a tough one to get right.  I've never been drawn to them but have heard them do some unique things.
That's the thing with this hobby... pro's and con's trickle down to an acceptable compromise.
In any case, I wish you continued luck.
-C

[richidoo]

class D is very efficient, so try to get it breathing hard to get a good burn going. It is unbreakable, so show mercy only to your speakers. Do you have a an subwoofer lying around?? 

hometheaterdoc told me about his break in method for amps:
face the two speakers toward each other, as close as possible, not touching.  Wire them out of phase, apply power, turn it up, close the door behind you. Turn it down at night.  The out of phase drivers will suck the pressure from each other to keep the SPL low while the power into each speaker is high. Fixing pillows or quilt over the speakers is optional but make sure they have enough cooling if playing loud.

It will tame down with 500 hours on it, every amp does. Lots of new parts in there need some time to smooth out. ICE is not known for grainy or harsh. I hope it meets your high expectations. I'm sure it will be very nice. After all, it has to be worth the wait - and you had a mighty long wait!

I am using Audiosource AMP200 right now so you are doing better than me... haha But even it has improved with a couple hundred hours on it.

[miklorsmith]

My Red Wine 70.2s are as far from "hard and edgy" as they could be.  That stereotype became such for a reason though - lots of switching amps, especially with switching power supplies can sound exactly that way.

I've only had one ICE amp through here, a Bel Canto S300 which uses a linear supply.  I got it to run the subwoofers on my Definition Pros - a task they were ultimately not up to.  I did try it on the mains briefly and didn't find it offensive.  It was a little tonally cool, but nimble and articulate.  It certainly didn't scream DIGITAL like the NuForces I had on demo. 

Disclaimers - I believe amps have a "power band" where they're happiest.  Very few (if any) will be great pushing Wilson and Zu.  Both those digis were planned for more normal loads.  And, I was using a Modwright 9.0SE at the time.  If I had been trying to optimize those amps for my setup I would have selected a pfatter preamp like my Lamm or the Wyetech Jade which could have made all the difference.

For that matter, the 70.2s sound harmonically thin without a great preamp in front.  That is NOT a knock.  They are transparent as hell and unbelievably capable of delivering what's sent to them without editorial intervention.  If Carl's rule is "big, heavy, expensive" (heh) mine would be "solid state amps are cool IF a killer tubed pre is in front".   

[Carlman]

I think everyone wants to find the cheap, light and efficient solution.  I've become a bit cynical since I've heard quite a few do it so poorly.  I'm forever hopeful that someone will crack the nut on this technology, though.

BTW, I have no 'rule' just an observation based on my experimentation over the years.  I'm still open to a digital amp that sounds like my 100 lb. beast... or a Pass... etc.  I'd agree a good tube pre + SS amp is the rock-solid formula for getting the most out of a system as well.  My friend Allen told me this about 10 years ago.  I strayed far and wide and then came full circle.

With weight and authority I like detail and emotion.  I must have PRaT and the possibility of good imaging as well.  (I say possibility because it's highly dependent on the recording)  The light/efficient amps haven't been able to deliver all of this for me yet.  If they're smooth, they tend to lose the 'love'.. and I'm not engaged by the music.  Maybe I like some distortion?  Maybe distortion is reality?  I don't know.. But I know 'clinically perfect' isn't reality either.  My guess is they'll add a reverb to a digital amp one day and it'll be the next big darling.

-C

[miklorsmith]

Maybe I like some distortion?  Maybe distortion is reality?  I don't know.. But I know 'clinically perfect' isn't reality either. 

Perfectly said, the balance between is where system building becomes an art.

[shep]

I'm really fed up with these long burn-ins. I think I'd rather have a nice tea-shirt in my male-box. Oh well..
Glad I got some attention! so these things image VERY well, are very transparent and nimble and punchy. Ok I don't have a great preamp in front but I do have a GREAT passive pot and the whole thing is optimized for that. The latest Ice module is supposedly better than previous versions, especially regarding the power supply.
If after 300+ hours they mellow and bloom, I'll be a happy camper. Before I got these TL's I had my heart set on a pair of Maggies 1.6 or a speaker now discontinued that was sold by Odyssey (can't remember the name).
As it happened, I chanced on these Craftys and they were shipped to my door for 500 euros so I can't complain. I just don't have the means to try them with dif. amplification, the nearest serious place for Hi-fi being hours away and the French dealers not known for their graciousness in lending stuff to unknown buyers. If I really had the means, I would buy either a Pass integrated or a Leben. I know about this trick for speakers (face to face and out of phase) but never heard it was good to burn in an amp! Isn't there some crazy cd back then that you put on repeat and it made al kinds of strange noises and accomplished this in half the time?
or was that just for cables? Actually I think this amp is probably going to be a killer. M. M. was highly complimentary (of his work!) but it's going to take time. I found the sweet spot in the room. aside from the bass not being as dry and growling as I like because of the floor and an edginess that will go away in time, I have no complaints. I'm itching to open it up and look at the strange and wonderful guts. It actually sounds nothing like a Tripath amp nor any solid state I've ever had. (my tube experience goes back YEARS ago) I would be hard put to describe it. Maybe we've reached the point where these differences are really blurred.

[richidoo]

I don't believe in deliberately sweetening a SS amp with tube distortion. It is covering higher order harmonic distortion with louder and lower, all of which drown out the incredibly subtle and delicate natural harmonies in the music. This gear is expensive, I want the nectar as pure and undiluted as possible. I seek an amp with power and low noise of SS plus the harmonic transparency of current production low distortion tubes. I think class D is the only way to get there, it is very low distortion, very high power by design. The limiting factor of SS, the sound of transistors coloring the output stage, is finally a non-issue. The sound of transistors in the input stage remains a big issue in cheap classD's.

Hypex is a promising and elegant design electrically, but they don't have the ears to make music - relying on artist/hobbyists to experiment to find audiophile parts quality for them. Spectron rumors to be there at the high end, that's next for me. Wyred, CIA (next gen.)  and other sophisticated module builders will become very popular in the mid priced bracket once subtle harmonic transparency breaks the $1000/ch barrier.

I can handle the occasionally harsh recording if ALL of the harmonic content is intact. As a musician I learned to focus on the muse and ignore the harshness of physical sounds onstage. It is very easy when immersed in live acoustic instruments. Electronics make it harder, in proportion to the amount and type of distortion they add. Music is more than pleasure for me, it is life-blood. I want to hear when the recording sucks. I can recognize what I'm searching for better without the mayo.

[miklorsmith]

In theory I agree with you Rich.  Of course, following that logic to the extreme means no preamp is good.

I had a buddy over recently, not swapping gear but listening.  I said "check this out" and played a cut from Dylan's Blood on the Tracks then switched preamps.  This is not an audiophile recording, not even a good one really. 

He knew what I switched but I didn't tell him what to expect.  Nevertheless he described the same differences I would have.  The one I would describe as less resolving, less neutral, more colored, more editorial, more noisy was unquestionably able to make that recording sound like real music.  It was human, organic, communicative, and integrated. 

My mom who knows my system well commented last night how completely right the "bad" one sounds - like real people in a band, and how well the important parts were served.  She noted that some of the back corners of the recordings might possibly be obscured but how much better the music spoke.  I also didn't advise her what to expect but again, that's perfectly aligned with how I would describe the differences.

I want to buy into the "complete neutrality" ideal, but my purely reactive emotional brain consistently rebels.

[Carlman]

It sounds like you're describing the difference in a non-OS dac to an oversampling one, Mike...

To Rich's point, I think it comes down to what you want to enjoy.  I like the '2nd generation original' idea... where it's a new experience in my living room.  I have my own tastes for how that should be.  I also have 2000 albums w/ a variety of recording choices.  My gear gives me the most out of my collection.

If I was a musician that listened mostly to classical and some old crappy jazz, I'd have different requirements for the system than say, someone who couldn't find middle C and just wanted his music-candy.

[Bigfish8]

  The one I would describe as less resolving, less neutral, more colored, more editorial, more noisy was unquestionably able to make that recording sound like real music.  It was human, organic, communicative, and integrated. 

Mike:

I bet I can guess which preamp you are referring to!

I spend a huge amount of time every night pouring over threads on the internet and reading opinions of equipment.  To me there seems to be two camps of audiophiles.  One group wants the music lean and neutral and the other group prefers some upper midrange warmth.  While I want clarity I am in the group that prefers some warmth to my music.  I don't believe this preference makes one or the other right or wrong it is just a matter of personal taste.

Ken