AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: Nick B on October 05, 2022, 09:02:15 PM
-
I have an AVA SET 120 amp which is a sonic bargain. A few nights ago, I forgot to turn off the system (not good for my tube preamp) and only noticed it had been on when I was getting ready to listen in the evening. There was a significant improvement in the sound. I thought maybe it was just the different source material. But it was quickly obvious that wasn’t the reason. I was getter improved resolution and additional soundstage depth and layering. I used music I was very familiar with. Additional voices appeared distinctly in choruses and instruments suddenly appeared where they hadn’t been present before. The texture of violins, guitars, harps, trumpets was more natural and nuanced. It really was like getting a new amp. I emailed Frank at AVA and asked if I could leave it on 24/7 and he asked that I don’t. He said heat and time are the enemies of solid state components. In conjunction with this, I had consistently noticed that after 4-5 hours of listening the sound improved. I thought maybe the AC was just super clean after 1:00 to 2:00, but I had Dave’s UberBUSS which was supposed to filter out AC grunge. So now it all finally makes sense. Things sound so improved that I’m going to leave it on 24/7.
So I’m wondering if you leave your solid state amps on or turn them off. Do you pay attention to the manufacturer’s recommendation or just do what works best for you? Also, regarding the design of a solid state amp, can it be designed to run cooler vs being run hot? Does bias fit into this? Do all solid state amps have bias settings and, if so, are some set at the factory and can’t be adjusted?
-
My Sphinx has a power switch in front and a master switch in the back that Rogue recommends leaving it on to keep it warmed up. They say it has no effect on the tube front end.
-
I always left them on for the reason you discovered- they just sounded better. With my current amp, I can’t really do that- it’s a class A amp and draws considerable juice even at idle. Your AVA is class A/B, and draws minimal power at idle.
Others feel that after 20 or 30 minutes their sound no longer improves. I’m in the other camp.
-
My Sphinx has a power switch in front and a master switch in the back that Rogue recommends leaving it on to keep it warmed up. They say it has no effect on the tube front end.
I wish the AVA amp was designed like that. Are you getting any current at all running thru the tubes in standby?
-
I always left them on for the reason you discovered- they just sounded better. With my current amp, I can’t really do that- it’s a class A amp and draws considerable juice even at idle. Your AVA is class A/B, and draws minimal power at idle.
Others feel that after 20 or 30 minutes their sound no longer improves. I’m in the other camp.
The magic timeframe for me has always been at 4-5 hours. I’m just going to leave it on 24/7.
-
My Sphinx has a power switch in front and a master switch in the back that Rogue recommends leaving it on to keep it warmed up. They say it has no effect on the tube front end.
I wish the AVA amp was designed like that. Are you getting any current at all running thru the tubes in standby?
I don't think so on the current. I wouldn't know how to measure that. I think the rear panel just keeps the class d modules warmed up from what I remember reading somewhere.
-
My Sphinx has a power switch in front and a master switch in the back that Rogue recommends leaving it on to keep it warmed up. They say it has no effect on the tube front end.
I wish the AVA amp was designed like that. Are you getting any current at all running thru the tubes in standby?
I don't think so on the current. I wouldn't know how to measure that. I think the rear panel just keeps the class d modules warmed up from what I remember reading somewhere.
I didn’t think so, but thought I’d ask. I’ve always been curious about the Rogue equipment, but have never been able to hear any at shows or friends homes.
-
The twin switch was how my BHK amp operated. Back switch turned on the Mosfet section and front switch the tubed input stage. Amp still warm to the touch with front switch off. All SS amps always on including the SET 400.
-
I agree, it takes my system at least 3 hours and preferably 4 hours before it sounds optimum.
Two downsides I see.
1. power bill might raise a couple of dollars.
2. Electrolytic capacitors degrade faster as the temperature rises. The rule of thumb used to be
half life for every 20 degree rise. A better way of putting it is for every 20 degrees below the caps
maximum rating, life was doubled.
So if the cap is rated 85C (185F), at 165 doubled, at 145 four times, 125 eight times, and 105F, 16 times.
Below maximum repetitive current also plays a part in cap life, but one usually doesn't know what that figure is
for a cap in a particular circuit. However, we do know that in preamplifiers, the repetitive current is generally
quite small compared to the max repetitive current rating for a particular electrolytic cap.
Another idea is the change the power switch for double throw, so when the switch is turned off, a power
resistor(s) would heat the component to a certain temperature. Multiple resistors around the chassis
would be even better for even heating. But then, the electrolytics would begin to suffer, depending upon
the temperature set.
cheers
steve
-
I agree, it takes my system at least 3 hours and preferably 4 hours before it sounds optimum.
Two downsides I see.
1. power bill might raise a couple of dollars.
2. Electrolytic capacitors degrade faster as the temperature rises. The rule of thumb used to be
half life for every 20 degree rise. A better way of putting it is for every 20 degrees below the caps
maximum rating, life was doubled.
So if the cap is rated 85C (185F), at 165 doubled, at 145 four times, 125 eight times, and 105F, 16 times.
Below maximum repetitive current also plays a part in cap life, but one usually doesn't know what that figure is
for a cap in a particular circuit. However, we do know that in preamplifiers, the repetitive current is generally
quite small compared to the max repetitive current rating for a particular electrolytic cap.
Another idea is the change the power switch for double throw, so when the switch is turned off, a power
resistor(s) would heat the component to a certain temperature. Multiple resistors around the chassis
would be even better for even heating. But then, the electrolytics would begin to suffer, depending upon
the temperature set.
cheers
steve
Thanks, Steve. The sound becomes very good at the 4-5 hour mark, but outstanding at 24 hours. I would rather have outstanding sound all the time. I’ve never kept an amp longer than 4-5 years or so, so longevity isn’t a concern for me. Can I ask what recommendations you made to clients on your products if they inquired?
Nick
-
My Sphinx has a power switch in front and a master switch in the back that Rogue recommends leaving it on to keep it warmed up. They say it has no effect on the tube front end.
I wish the AVA amp was designed like that. Are you getting any current at all running thru the tubes in standby?
I don't think so on the current. I wouldn't know how to measure that. I think the rear panel just keeps the class d modules warmed up from what I remember reading somewhere.
I didn’t think so, but thought I’d ask. I’ve always been curious about the Rogue equipment, but have never been able to hear any at shows or friends homes.
Here it is in the manual
Powering up the System - After all proper connections have been made, you are now
ready to turn the Sphinx on. The main power on/off switch is on the rear of the amp.
This “vacation switch” can be left on at all times and keeps the solid state portion of the
amplifier in a standby state. The Sphinx uses very little power while in standby and will
sound its very best if you leave this switch on at all times. If you are going to be away
for an extended time period (vacation) you can turn it off. The yellow LED on the front
panel indicates that this switch is turned on. The power button on the front panel
energizes the tube section and takes the solid state circuitry out of standby mode. The
blue LED indicates that the amplifier is in fully operational mode
-
On 24/7 for me.
charles
-
Leaving solid state equipment on 24/7 is definitely no good. It's not going to improve the sound quality one bit. I'm pretty sure you will never find any properly conducted blind test that supports any theory that it does sound better. It's certainly easier to find measurement data which is of course objective that will show that there's no difference from measurement perspective when the unit is first turned on within milliseconds of measurements versus it being on for 30 days straight. Besides the fact that you have an additional electric bill to deal with it also disintegrates the life of the components. By this I mean all components resistors capacitors transistors etc etc. Ask some folks who are in the business who do electronics repair what they think and I'm pretty sure they'll tell you the same response that I'm giving here.
Now of course there's a caveat to this which has to do with the in rush of current once a unit is turned on. And by turned on I mean from a completely off state, I'm not talking about coming out of standby. Suppose you wake up at 10:00 in the morning and you intend to listen throughout the day until 10:00 at night. In that case you'd want to leave your unit on for the entire 12 hour duration. So even in the middle of that time frame if you step out to go to the grocery store for 2 hours you don't want to turn your unit off and then turn it back on again. But when you're going to sleep at 10:00 at night and you're not going to wake up until sometime in the next morning - which presumably you will wake up - then you turn your unit on if in fact you intend to listen to it that day. Otherwise leave it off.
I'll give folks here another tip and of course this is all having to do with solid state it's not as easy to do this with tubes and admittingly I have no experience with tubes so I'm speaking strictly of all solid state. Once the unit is off and has cooled down enough you want to cover the ventilation holes of the unit so as to prevent dust, or at least try and prevent dust insofar as minimizing the amount of dust, that will enter the unit. If your a person that swaps out gear every one two three four years it doesn't make a difference. But if you're the type of person who likes to hang on to a piece of gear for 20 years it definitely does make a difference.
Best
Hal
EDIT: I mention covering to mitigate dust because that is in fact related to powering the unit on or off. First of all covering the unit not only helps prevent dust it also helps prevent little creepy crawlies like spiders from getting into your equipment as well. Again, dust and spiders will not be completely prevented, but it can be minimized. If you're insistent about *not* turning off your equipment, even when the equipment is in standby mode (assuming your gear has a standby mode), there is some amount of heat that needs to be dissipated. The heat sinks just aren't enough and you need unobstructed air vents. So by leaving your equipment on, in a sense it prevents you from covering the air vents which in itself has advantages as I've indicated above.
Look, those of you who insist it sounds better when left on 24/7 , by all means do what you got to do. If there's any way for you to test that in some type of a blind test which I realize would not be easy to do in this case but if you did have such an opportunity I think you'd be surprised with the results.
Yes , everything in the way of electronics does have a thermal equilibrium that needs to be obtained. However , the thermal equilibrium occurs within moments not hours or days.
YMMV
-
"...........is definitely no good. It's not going to improve the sound quality one bit"
You can fill in the blank with most anything you want when it comes to audiophilia. But I suspect that around here, it meets with the same attitude as saying "Chocolate malts are proven to be better than vanilla malts". Double blind test, brain scans, and conformations by Ouija board still don't matter... if you like vanilla, you like vanilla.
-
"...........is definitely no good. It's not going to improve the sound quality one bit"
You can fill in the blank with most anything you want when it comes to audiophilia. But I suspect that around here, it meets with the same attitude as saying "Chocolate malts are proven to be better than vanilla malts". Double blind test, brain scans, and conformations by Ouija board still don't matter... if you like vanilla, you like vanilla.
Audio sound all boils down to your own "distortion profile".
Besides the equipment being on or off you also have to contend with how long your ears have been listening and your brain has been processing the sound.
Everything matters at some level.
-
Interesting comments which I appreciate. I certainly understand about blind testing and agree with that when possible. I also understand our brains can play tricks on us. However, I’ve mentioned on a few occasions to a member here how good things sound after about 4-5 hours of listening. Now that’s a far ways away from being on 24/7. But here’s the proof, at least for me…. At 4-5+ hours, the songs I was extremely familiar with sounded the same as to tonality, soundstage, air, quality of vocals etc. At the 24 hour mark, these same tunes presented information which I had NEVER heard before. There was more separation of instruments within the soundstage, voices in a chorus could now be heard very distinctly as individuals, instruments I had never heard before were now easily discernible. Again, these are recordings I’ve had for decades that I’m intimately familiar with. If my brain is playing tricks on me by adding information I’ve never heard previously and doing it as if I were a composer or a recording engineer, well, heck, hat’s off to my imagination 😊 As to measurements, they can be important for a designer. But I’m simply an enthusiastic, non-technical music lover. I just don’t want to spend my time reading the ASR stuff. No thanks…not today…not tomorrow. I am curious as to what parts/factors are involved in this. I would guess some of these parts operate better at higher temperatures and need a certain duration of time to achieve that. That’s how I see it…I mean hear it.
I better get back to playing more old, familiar tunes to see what new goodies will be revealed 🎶🎶
-
Hi Nick,
The Plinius integrated's manual says never to turn it off and that it will sound best after 24-48 hours of being left on. My record was 7 days on straight.
From the manual:
WARM-UP PERIOD
You will find that the Plinius 8100 will become noticeably 'warmer' in sound after being on for a period of time. We usually recommend waiting at least 24 hours before expecting the best quality of sound reproduction from your amplifier. Also, as the Plinius 8100 uses very little power while on, we suggest leaving the unit turned on so that it will always be at it's sonic best.
I found this to be true. The bigger, pure class A versions has a standby switch since they eat up a lot of juice.
Paul
-
Hi Nick,
The Plinius integrated's manual says never to turn it off and that it will sound best after 24-48 hours of being left on. My record was 7 days on straight.
From the manual:
WARM-UP PERIOD
You will find that the Plinius 8100 will become noticeably 'warmer' in sound after being on for a period of time. We usually recommend waiting at least 24 hours before expecting the best quality of sound reproduction from your amplifier. Also, as the Plinius 8100 uses very little power while on, we suggest leaving the unit turned on so that it will always be at it's sonic best.
I found this to be true. The bigger, pure class A versions has a standby switch since they eat up a lot of juice.
Paul
Hi Paul,
Thanks for that. It seems like competent, well-respected manufacturers are on opposite sides of the fence on this. For my amp in my system in my house, there’s just no question of the superior presentation. Whether that would apply to the next solid state amp I own, I have no idea. I’m willing to sacrifice equipment longevity (within reason) to have this level of improvement.
Nick
PS still enjoying that tube amp?
-
PS still enjoying that tube amp?
Yes! The offending tube (whatever it was) has quieted down, for now at least.
Paul
-
Asking a manufacturer and/or adhering to their recommendations is certainly a wise choice. Wiser still includes your own experience.
Yet another wise move would be to speak with a repair technician under the manufacturers employ and/or outside of their direct employ however an "authorized" repair center. Pose the on/off question to them. See, read, hear what they have to say.
Also, should your unit ever actually need repair, consider the nature of the problem and ask yourself - and honestly answer yourself - if you think that had you kept your unit powered off more often if that might have helped avoid the situation you've found yourself in.
For those that experience a "world of sonic improvement" when left on 24/7 relative to being kept powered off, something is "wrong". If that were the case, you should also experience a world of sonic improvement or degradation when the *temperature* and *humidity* in your room changes +/- 10 percent or so.
-
Asking a manufacturer and/or adhering to their recommendations is certainly a wise choice. Wiser still includes your own experience.
Yet another wise move would be to speak with a repair technician under the manufacturers employ and/or outside of their direct employ however an "authorized" repair center. Pose the on/off question to them. See, read, hear what they have to say.
Also, should your unit ever actually need repair, consider the nature of the problem and ask yourself - and honestly answer yourself - if you think that had you kept your unit powered off more often if that might have helped avoid the situation you've found yourself in.
For those that experience a "world of sonic improvement" when left on 24/7 relative to being kept powered off, something is "wrong". If that were the case, you should also experience great improvement or degradation when the *temperature* and *humidity* in your room changes +/- 10 percent or so.
Certainly understand and respect your point of view. The test for this, or any solid state amp is to run one 24/7 and run the other one on a typical on/off cycle and see what the difference is in longevity. Not aware of that being done and I’m already too old to want to wait for the results. I bought this amp used for $900 or so and it’s not a huge investment. The improvement in SQ is such that it is worth it for me to leave it on all the time. If it were a $5-$10k amp or more, I might be thinking differently. Not sure why you’re disagreeing with my statement that I’m hearing new musical information that I’ve never heard before. I’m here living with this setup and its not in doubt. Your perspective seems more like that of an engineer. I’m simply a music enthusiast reporting what I’m hearing. Using your logic, my system should sound the same whether it’s one minute after being turned on or 5 hours later. What are the Plinius guys smoking when they say their amps sound better after waiting at least 24 hours?
-
@Nick B
I'm not disagreeing with your statement at all. Whatever it is you're hearing, your hearing. All I'm saying is that based on your description, the difference in what you're hearing shouldn't be the case.
Certainly not meaning to be argumentative but are you hearing another verse in a song when it's powered on 24/7 versus listening to that same song from a cold start and then the verse isn't there?
I have no clue what the people at Plinius are smoking. But certainly you realize that every manufacturer builds in some degree of planned obsolescence into their products. Case in point would be any cell phone manufacturer. The battery is the first thing to go bad. The battery cannot be replaced without spending the same cost as had you purchase a brand new phone.
So you see, my point here is essentially saying that manufacturers don't always tell the truth, and sometimes they tell their own truth because it benefits them, not because it benefits you. Not implying this is necessarily the case in your particular circumstance, but it's certainly conceivable.
I'm sorry Nick. The *fact* remains that any difference from a cold/warm/hot state should be something which is barely audible at best.
-
I have no dog in this fight. I don't leave my gear on because I use stuff with tubes.
But... "So you see, my point here is essentially saying that manufacturers don't always tell the truth, and sometimes they tell their own truth because it benefits them, not because it benefits you. Not implying this is necessarily the case in your particular circumstance, but it's certainly conceivable."
But this is exactly what this implies, and I don't think you are winning converts
And..."I'm sorry Nick. The *fact* remains that any difference from a cold/warm/hot state should be something which is barely audible at best." I guess Nick's ears don't agree with your theory (not exactly a *fact*)
Regardless, I think I'll go turn my system on, spin the turntable, and listen to some tunes. :thumb:
-
@S Clark
Fair enough and your points are noted.
I'll bow out of this thread for the moment.
Happy listening 🎧
Best.
Hal
-
@Nick B
I'm not disagreeing with your statement at all. Whatever it is you're hearing, your hearing. All I'm saying is that based on your description, the difference in what you're hearing shouldn't be the case.
Certainly not meaning to be argumentative but are you hearing another verse in a song when it's powered on 24/7 versus listening to that same song from a cold start and then the verse isn't there?
I have no clue what the people at Plinius are smoking. But certainly you realize that every manufacturer builds in some degree of planned obsolescence into their products. Case in point would be any cell phone manufacturer. The battery is the first thing to go bad. The battery cannot be replaced without spending the same cost as had you purchase a brand new phone.
So you see, my point here is essentially saying that manufacturers don't always tell the truth, and sometimes they tell their own truth because it benefits them, not because it benefits you. Not implying this is necessarily the case in your particular circumstance, but it's certainly conceivable.
I'm sorry Nick. The *fact* remains that any difference from a cold/warm/hot state should be something which is barely audible at best.
I understand your points about planned obsolescence and manufacturers having their own interests at heart first, I have bought many of the planned obsolescence products over the years 😳 I don’t know the reason why I’m hearing additional information like more distinct presentation of individual voices in a chorus or hearing an instrument that I hadn’t heard before. Maybe we’re getting into the area of operating tolerances or ideal operating temperatures for equipment and that concept applies far beyond audio components.
Anyway, I’ll leave this as is and appreciate your thoughts and input.
-
I have no dog in this fight. I don't leave my gear on because I use stuff with tubes.
But... "So you see, my point here is essentially saying that manufacturers don't always tell the truth, and sometimes they tell their own truth because it benefits them, not because it benefits you. Not implying this is necessarily the case in your particular circumstance, but it's certainly conceivable."
But this is exactly what this implies, and I don't think you are winning converts
And..."I'm sorry Nick. The *fact* remains that any difference from a cold/warm/hot state should be something which is barely audible at best." I guess Nick's ears don't agree with your theory (not exactly a *fact*)
Regardless, I think I'll go turn my system on, spin the turntable, and listen to some tunes. :thumb:
The fightin’ dog is napping now and wants to watch college football the rest of the day. Enjoy your tubes 🎶🎶
-
I leave my SS amp on, to me it sounds better and one thing I learned in engineering school was that on/off stresses components worse than leaving them on.
-
The fightin’ dog is napping now and wants to watch college football the rest of the day. Enjoy your tubes 🎶🎶
Not much for fighting or college football, but napping is right up my alley. Old dogs love sleeping in the sun.
-
I leave my SS amp on, to me it sounds better and one thing I learned in engineering school was that on/off stresses components worse than leaving them on.
Hi Jim! :)
You are absolutely correct "....that on/off stresses components..."
This is why in a previous post here in this thread I wrote:
Now of course there's a caveat to this which has to do with the in rush of current once a unit is turned on. And by turned on I mean from a completely off state, I'm not talking about coming out of standby. Suppose you wake up at 10:00 in the morning and you intend to listen throughout the day until 10:00 at night. In that case you'd want to leave your unit on for the entire 12 hour duration. So even in the middle of that time frame if you step out to go to the grocery store for 2 hours you don't want to turn your unit off and then turn it back on again. But when you're going to sleep at 10:00 at night and you're not going to wake up until sometime in the next morning - which presumably you will wake up - then you turn your unit on if in fact you intend to listen to it that day. Otherwise leave it off.
To the remainder of your statement ".....worse than leaving them on.", I'd say "it depends". If on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off constantly and intentionally (I think you and others know what I mean) then sure, leaving it on is healthier for the components. If on/off - as in once a day for the listening session duration, then I believe (and was taught) that it is healthier for the components to be in an "off" (completely, including standby) state.
As to sounding "better" one way (on/off) or the other (constantly on) this is subjective, of course. So whatever your preference is - i.e. whatever your "distortion profile" finds preferable to your own ears, by all means, stay true to that.
Best.
Hal
-
Been quite busy lately, so if I have not posted. My replies might also be intermittent.
Nick perceiving a sonic difference in the stereo after the amp is on 24 hours may not
be unusual in a good system. One of the weaknesses when designing a component/system
is to cause masking. Nick has a good system, thus minimal masking.
Time for warm up, part values changing do occur over time. My system takes a minimum of
3 hours and preferred 4 hours. As such, another may actually take 6 hours, 10 hours,
depending upon the mass needed to be warmed.
Masking is the "ability" to "remove" inner detail, change harmonic structure etc. This
occurs with either full, or lean individual components, and passive parts with temperature
change. As such, masking will affect the ability to perceive sonic differences.
Temperature and humidity can affect musical playback perception due to air mass change,
thus the energy required to vibrate the air mass. This is Not a linear function.
Bling testing is difficult to perform correctly. Typical audio blind testing always skews towards
no sonic difference.
Does blind testing equate to typical listening. I have yet to see an answer.
If we have a group, statistically half are in a bass increasing mode
and half in a bass decreasing mode, how does one obtain a 95% confidence result?
Lastly, how perceptive is the "ear" (complete listening system)? In the lab, which I have at home now,
I have found a correlation of adjustments whose results essentially match.
1. Changing a resistor value by 1 part in a million is clearly perceived as a tonal balance change/
frequency response change. That equates to at least -120db down from the fundamental. A
specification of +/- 0,1db is in the range of -54db variation. If just -0,1db, that is only -60db.
As one can see, that specification means virtually nothing when compared to -120db. Not
surprised at all that sonic differences are perceived.
2. Changing 3/16th inch of one turn on a 600 watt 10mh iron core crossover inductor is clearly perceived.
Every time an inductor is used, some sort of distortion of the signal occurs. Even in a simple circuit as
shown below. Some effects also occur due to dc resistance of the wire. So we usually have one term
being frequency sensitive and another term not frequency sensitive.
3. I am now using 10 parallel 18 gauge 6 foot wires in one speaker leg and 11 wires in the other leg.
Altering either leg by one additional or one less wire is clearly perceived.
4. Exchanging just one speaker leg wire from 3n (99.9% pure) to 6n (99.9999) is clearly perceived.
5. Using a 0,5mm pen marking, such a small rotation of a speaker is clearly perceived.
6. In the upgraded dac, two 6" wires are used from the board to the filter cap. Changing it from 3n to 6n
is perceived.
Notice these are Not subjective preferences but sonic differences noted.
As one can see, each of these points is an extremely minute variation that supports
the other minute variations noted.
Granted, this is arrived at in a laboratory. However, in the real world at least a partial
realization occurs as Nick and others have observed.
Cheers
steve
-
Been quite busy lately, so if I have not posted. My replies might also be intermittent.
Nick perceiving a sonic difference in the stereo after the amp is on 24 hours may not
be unusual in a good system. One of the weaknesses when designing a component/system
is to cause masking. Nick has a good system, thus minimal masking.
Time for warm up, part values changing do occur over time. My system takes a minimum of
3 hours and preferred 4 hours. As such, another may actually take 6 hours, 10 hours,
depending upon the mass needed to be warmed.
Masking is the "ability" to "remove" inner detail, change harmonic structure etc. This
occurs with either full, or lean individual components, and passive parts with temperature
change. As such, masking will affect the ability to perceive sonic differences.
Temperature and humidity can affect musical playback perception due to air mass change,
thus the energy required to vibrate the air mass. This is Not a linear function.
Bling testing is difficult to perform correctly. Typical audio blind testing always skews towards
no sonic difference.
Does blind testing equate to typical listening. I have yet to see an answer.
If we have a group, statistically half are in a bass increasing mode
and half in a bass decreasing mode, how does one obtain a 95% confidence result?
Lastly, how perceptive is the "ear" (complete listening system)? In the lab, which I have at home now,
I have found a correlation of adjustments whose results essentially match.
1. Changing a resistor value by 1 part in a million is clearly perceived as a tonal balance change/
frequency response change. That equates to at least -120db down from the fundamental. A
specification of +/- 0,1db is in the range of -54db variation. If just -0,1db, that is only -60db.
As one can see, that specification means virtually nothing when compared to -120db. Not
surprised at all that sonic differences are perceived.
2. Changing 3/16th inch of one turn on a 600 watt 10mh iron core crossover inductor is clearly perceived.
Every time an inductor is used, some sort of distortion of the signal occurs. Even in a simple circuit as
shown below. Some effects also occur due to dc resistance of the wire. So we usually have one term
being frequency sensitive and another term not frequency sensitive.
3. I am now using 10 parallel 18 gauge 6 foot wires in one speaker leg and 11 wires in the other leg.
Altering either leg by one additional or one less wire is clearly perceived.
4. Exchanging just one speaker leg wire from 3n (99.9% pure) to 6n (99.9999) is clearly perceived.
5. Using a 0,5mm pen marking, such a small rotation of a speaker is clearly perceived.
6. In the upgraded dac, two 6" wires are used from the board to the filter cap. Changing it from 3n to 6n
is perceived.
Notice these are Not subjective preferences but sonic differences noted.
As one can see, each of these points is an extremely minute variation that supports
the other minute variations noted.
Granted, this is arrived at in a laboratory. However, in the real world at least a partial
realization occurs as Nick and others have observed.
Cheers
steve
Hi Steve,
Busy is good! As always, interesting comments from you including masking. I don’t know what the normal operating temperature is of Van Alstine solid state gear or if there’s a normal for solid state amps in general. At the 5-6 hour mark, there’s a definite improvement and at 24 hours, it’s like hearing a better amp. I really haven’t tested at the 10 hour mark, or 15 hours etc. It’s irrelevant to me now and my amp is on 24/7 nowadays.
Now, the area of perceived vs real differences is interesting to me as well. I’d say perceived differences might be better bass, more air etc. What I’m hearing is additional information….instruments and individual voices in a chorus for example. Are those perceived differences…no they’re not. They’re additional information. For example, if I can hear test tones at 14 kHz and another individual can only hear until 10 kHz, that’s a real difference and not a perceived one. To argue to the contrary would render hearing tests a bit useless.
Hal also mentioned humidity affecting hearing perception and I’ll take your word on that as I don’t know. The humidity level in so. Utah is low and stable. It would be interesting to see if I can hear the minute differences you described when making what I think are very small changes in your system. I don’t know if I could and I’m not trained or experienced in that either. I’m just an audio enthusiast who’s been in the hobby for 35+ years who’s spent too much 💰 over the years but keeps learning more each month.
-
Been quite busy lately, so if I have not posted. My replies might also be intermittent.
Nick perceiving a sonic difference in the stereo after the amp is on 24 hours may not
be unusual in a good system. One of the weaknesses when designing a component/system
is to cause masking. Nick has a good system, thus minimal masking.
Time for warm up, part values changing do occur over time. My system takes a minimum of
3 hours and preferred 4 hours. As such, another may actually take 6 hours, 10 hours,
depending upon the mass needed to be warmed.
Masking is the "ability" to "remove" inner detail, change harmonic structure etc. This
occurs with either full, or lean individual components, and passive parts with temperature
change. As such, masking will affect the ability to perceive sonic differences.
Temperature and humidity can affect musical playback perception due to air mass change,
thus the energy required to vibrate the air mass. This is Not a linear function.
Bling testing is difficult to perform correctly. Typical audio blind testing always skews towards
no sonic difference.
Does blind testing equate to typical listening. I have yet to see an answer.
If we have a group, statistically half are in a bass increasing mode
and half in a bass decreasing mode, how does one obtain a 95% confidence result?
Lastly, how perceptive is the "ear" (complete listening system)? In the lab, which I have at home now,
I have found a correlation of adjustments whose results essentially match.
1. Changing a resistor value by 1 part in a million is clearly perceived as a tonal balance change/
frequency response change. That equates to at least -120db down from the fundamental. A
specification of +/- 0,1db is in the range of -54db variation. If just -0,1db, that is only -60db.
As one can see, that specification means virtually nothing when compared to -120db. Not
surprised at all that sonic differences are perceived.
2. Changing 3/16th inch of one turn on a 600 watt 10mh iron core crossover inductor is clearly perceived.
Every time an inductor is used, some sort of distortion of the signal occurs. Even in a simple circuit as
shown below. Some effects also occur due to dc resistance of the wire. So we usually have one term
being frequency sensitive and another term not frequency sensitive.
3. I am now using 10 parallel 18 gauge 6 foot wires in one speaker leg and 11 wires in the other leg.
Altering either leg by one additional or one less wire is clearly perceived.
4. Exchanging just one speaker leg wire from 3n (99.9% pure) to 6n (99.9999) is clearly perceived.
5. Using a 0,5mm pen marking, such a small rotation of a speaker is clearly perceived.
6. In the upgraded dac, two 6" wires are used from the board to the filter cap. Changing it from 3n to 6n
is perceived.
Notice these are Not subjective preferences but sonic differences noted.
As one can see, each of these points is an extremely minute variation that supports
the other minute variations noted.
Granted, this is arrived at in a laboratory. However, in the real world at least a partial
realization occurs as Nick and others have observed.
Cheers
steve
Hi Steve,
Busy is good! As always, interesting comments from you including masking. I don’t know what the normal operating temperature is of Van Alstine solid state gear or if there’s a normal for solid state amps in general. At the 5-6 hour mark, there’s a definite improvement and at 24 hours, it’s like hearing a better amp. I really haven’t tested at the 10 hour mark, or 15 hours etc. It’s irrelevant to me now and my amp is on 24/7 nowadays.
Now, the area of perceived vs real differences is interesting to me as well. I’d say perceived differences might be better bass, more air etc. What I’m hearing is additional information….instruments and individual voices in a chorus for example. Are those perceived differences…no they’re not. They’re additional information. For example, if I can hear test tones at 14 kHz and another individual can only hear until 10 kHz, that’s a real difference and not a perceived one. To argue to the contrary would render hearing tests a bit useless.
Hal also mentioned humidity affecting hearing perception and I’ll take your word on that as I don’t know. The humidity level in so. Utah is low and stable. It would be interesting to see if I can hear the minute differences you described when making what I think are very small changes in your system. I don’t know if I could and I’m not trained or experienced in that either. I’m just an audio enthusiast who’s been in the hobby for 35+ years who’s spent too much 💰 over the years but keeps learning more each month.
Understandable Nick, I don't know of anyone who has tested every 3, 5 10 hours over a 24 hour period for sonic differences. It was just a thought for anyone who wanted to experiment on their own.
I must apologize for the term perceived sonic differences. I meant a real sonic difference, not trickery of our minds.
In my experiments over the decades in the lab, when I mentioned changing a resistor by 1 part in a million or other changes in my previous post, that sonic change is real, our hearing mechanism is actually that sensitive, to -120db tonal balance change, frequency response change.
cheers
steve
-
Agree Steve. Voicing is a wonderful thing.
charles