AudioNervosa

Specialists => Audiologists => Topic started by: dflee on September 04, 2022, 03:44:45 PM

Title: The Old Days
Post by: dflee on September 04, 2022, 03:44:45 PM
My first audiophile grade speaker was Bang and Olufsen M4.
I got them from a small audio shop run by Valparaiso University in my home town. One of the selling points and something ingrained was I could stand in front of one speaker and clearly hear the other side playing. That meant no matter where in the room I could hear both right and left channels clearly. Today there is the "sweet spot" and if you sit in just the right place and just the right height and put your head in just the right position you hear nirvana (not the band). I won't disagree that sound stage and all the other euphemisms may be better but not all of us have a stereo for just themselves. Besides isn't music to be shared and enjoyed by all in the room? When did things change? Is it the equipment that made us listen differently or is it equipment isn't made like that anymore?

Don
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: Folsom on September 06, 2022, 03:05:26 PM
You won't find me in the sweetspot all the time. I think a good stereo sounds nice everywhere. But you get that last 5-10% in the sweetspot.
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: Nick B on September 06, 2022, 05:34:43 PM
My first audiophile grade speaker was Bang and Olufsen M4.
I got them from a small audio shop run by Valparaiso University in my home town. One of the selling points and something ingrained was I could stand in front of one speaker and clearly hear the other side playing. That meant no matter where in the room I could hear both right and left channels clearly. Today there is the "sweet spot" and if you sit in just the right place and just the right height and put your head in just the right position you hear nirvana (not the band). I won't disagree that sound stage and all the other euphemisms may be better but not all of us have a stereo for just themselves. Besides isn't music to be shared and enjoyed by all in the room? When did things change? Is it the equipment that made us listen differently or is it equipment isn't made like that anymore?

Don

Over twenty years ago, I had Shahinian Diapasons and their omnidirectional design gave me lots of freedom to move around….and it was an excellent speaker and fun to listen to. In my situation…single with the house to myself… I don’t mind being locked into a small sweet spot. A couple of years ago, I looked into Ohm speakers, but couldn’t pull the trigger due to lack of comments by high end users.
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: James Edward on September 07, 2022, 03:42:20 PM
I currently have Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers; no baffle, so a fair amount of sound emanates from the rear of the speaker.
This gives a wider sound when not sitting locked into a listening chair- I do that only about 10% of the time; so I empathize…
Back in the day I think maybe (?) we were more into tonality… Magazines at some point began to emphasize soundstage and depth as holy grails- maybe manufacturers toed the line to garner better reviews.
I still prefer tonality over soundstage as my preference- my system is in my living room and I don’t sit in my listening chair as often as I’d like, but I do always have it on as I move about.
Having said that, I do get a thrill out of a system that does the image thing really well. CES 2008- Tropos Audio- I kept going back to their room- you’d think if you threw a tennis ball between the speakers it would bounce back- I’ve never before or since heard such a solid image.
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: Nick B on September 07, 2022, 04:01:15 PM
I currently have Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers; no baffle, so a fair amount of sound emanates from the rear of the speaker.
This gives a wider sound when not sitting locked into a listening chair- I do that only about 10% of the time; so I empathize…
Back in the day I think maybe (?) we were more into tonality… Magazines at some point began to emphasize soundstage and depth as holy grails- maybe manufacturers toed the line to garner better reviews.
I still prefer tonality over soundstage as my preference- my system is in my living room and I don’t sit in my listening chair as often as I’d like, but I do always have it on as I move about.
Having said that, I do get a thrill out of a system that does the image thing really well. CES 2008- Tropos Audio- I kept going back to their room- you’d think if you threw a tennis ball between the speakers it would bounce back- I’ve never before or since heard such a solid image.

I did a search on Tropos, but couldn’t find very much. Here’s a link on one of their models.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/tropos-audio-audio-dreams--455848793514225953/
I’ll agree with you as to the value of tonality. Over the years, I’ve become spoiled and want the whole package… Imaging, soundstage, resolution, black background etc.
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: dflee on September 07, 2022, 06:53:09 PM
Since my room will never be able to be set up properly as to what everyone says, I'll stick with my tonality and good sound over that perfect placement. I've played around somewhat with speaker placement and will enjoy what I got for what I got.

Don
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: rollo on November 03, 2022, 10:44:31 AM
  It is tonality and harmonic structure over the illusion. However when one gets both there is no comparison. We can enjoy the sound from anywhere it comes. The hard to get life like illusion is the hard part. If you can get those speakers to disappear you got it.

charles
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: ejk on November 03, 2022, 11:12:15 AM
  It is tonality and harmonic structure over the illusion. However when one gets both there is no comparison. We can enjoy the sound from anywhere it comes. The hard to get life like illusion is the hard part. If you can get those speakers to disappear you got it.

charles

My Zu's and AP's are standing next to each other and they both disappear. I think the tubes in both amps are finally broken in, so I don't know if that helps
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: ejk on December 27, 2022, 07:33:07 AM
  It is tonality and harmonic structure over the illusion. However when one gets both there is no comparison. We can enjoy the sound from anywhere it comes. The hard to get life like illusion is the hard part. If you can get those speakers to disappear you got it.

charles

My Zu's and AP's are standing next to each other and they both disappear. I think the tubes in both amps are finally broken in, so I don't know if that helps

Has it been just recently that you got them to disappear, or has it been for a long time?

cheers

steve

Who knows could be psycho acoustics but either way the system sounds great
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: steve on December 27, 2022, 07:38:43 AM
  It is tonality and harmonic structure over the illusion. However when one gets both there is no comparison. We can enjoy the sound from anywhere it comes. The hard to get life like illusion is the hard part. If you can get those speakers to disappear you got it.

charles

My Zu's and AP's are standing next to each other and they both disappear. I think the tubes in both amps are finally broken in, so I don't know if that helps

Has it been just recently that you got them to disappear, or has it been for a long time?

cheers

steve

Who knows could be psycho acoustics but either way the system sounds great

I doubt phycho acoustics. You don't remember with the
previous tubes? Are the amps, or something else new  in your stereo?

cheers

steve
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: ejk on December 27, 2022, 07:46:25 AM
No. Same tubes. Only new add is the Orchard Audio amp which was purchases after the comment. And still my speakers disappear.
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: steve on December 27, 2022, 08:02:57 AM
No. Same tubes. Only new add is the Orchard Audio amp which was purchases after the comment. And still my speakers disappear.

Ah, glad. I was just checking as you seemed rather unsure back in Nov with the tubes breaking in.

cheers and all the best.

steve
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: TopRound‎ on December 27, 2022, 02:58:15 PM
I think a well designed set of speakers setup correctly should disappear.
I remember my Virgo's they were a pain to setup, lots of experimentation, and they ended up where you wouldn't think they should.
But sit in the seat and not only the speakers but the walls disappeared, like putting your head under water, an immersive event.
I like those type of setups, you really can drift away and get up in the music, as you become part of the soundscape
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: GDHAL on December 27, 2022, 03:14:56 PM
Blindfold me I'm *any* room playing recorded music via *any* gear. I will walk directly at one of the speakers. 100 out of 100 times.

Now, whether or not speakers *should* disappear is another matter.

Best.

Hal

I think a well designed set of speakers setup correctly should disappear.
I remember my Virgo's they were a pain to setup, lots of experimentation, and they ended up where you wouldn't think they should.
But sit in the seat and not only the speakers but the walls disappeared, like putting your head under water, an immersive event.
I like those type of setups, you really can drift away and get up in the music, as you become part of the soundscape
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: steve on December 27, 2022, 03:53:40 PM
Blindfold me I'm *any* room playing recorded music via *any* gear. I will walk directly at one of the speakers. 100 out of 100 times.

Now, whether or not speakers *should* disappear is another matter.

Best.

Hal

I think a well designed set of speakers setup correctly should disappear.
I remember my Virgo's they were a pain to setup, lots of experimentation, and they ended up where you wouldn't think they should.
But sit in the seat and not only the speakers but the walls disappeared, like putting your head under water, an immersive event.
I like those type of setups, you really can drift away and get up in the music, as you become part of the soundscape

I agree Top. As far as finding the speaker I agree, yes, should be able to do that.

1. When dealing with virtually any speaker, the frequency response changes due to
changing dispersion characteristics, and the disappearing act almost always lessens or disappears.

2. Some musical selections, maybe many, tend not to spread completely across the front.
They have depth and width, but although the speaker appears to be not there, the general
direction is, which one can walk to.

3. Another factor is and the loudness changes quite dramatically as one moves closer towards the
speakers, and one speaker will tend to dominate, one is slightly closer to one etc.

4. Another reason is that one usually knows where the walls are, so as one walks closer to one wall,
that side speaker will dominate, loudness takes over.

5. Disappearing relative.

cheers to all, be safe.

steve
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: GDHAL on December 27, 2022, 04:02:25 PM
@steve

+1!!!!

Looks like you and I aren't so diametrically opposed after all.

Best.

Hal
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: steve on December 27, 2022, 04:05:24 PM
@steve

+1!!!!

Looks like you and I aren't so diametrically opposed after all.

Best.

Hal

+1 Buddy. I just follow the science.

Be safe.

steve
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: TopRound‎ on December 27, 2022, 04:13:29 PM
Walk around and yes you will hear the source, but set up for the seat and you can be blown away as no sound comes out of the speakers but is coming from the fireplace!

I remember the first time this happened to me at a friends house I had to walk up to the tweeter as I could not discern any sound coming from the speakers....its awesome :thumb:
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: steve on December 27, 2022, 04:18:44 PM
Walk around and yes you will hear the source, but set up for the seat and you can be blown away as no sound comes out of the speakers but is coming from the fireplace!

I remember the first time this happened to me at a friends house I had to walk up to the tweeter as I could not discern any sound coming from the speakers....its awesome :thumb:

Absolutely agree Top. +10. Great description.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: _Scotty_ on December 27, 2022, 04:20:51 PM
Hal, try the same test with a mono signal playing and see what results you have. At one point in the 90s
I had an ear infection that poked a 6db deep hole centered at 500Hz in the frequency response my right ear. Verified by an audiologist at the time. The soundstage collapsed into the left channel. I thought something was desperately wrong with the stereo until I stood in the middle of the loudspeakers
with my back to them. The stereo image collapsed into the right speaker thus showing that I was the one with the problem and not the stereo. This is what prompted the trip to the audiologist.
 If the system is really working well a mono signal composed of pink or white noise
well it should show a strong central image with a height component that should extend clear to the ceiling.
 It is undesirable for image to be essentially at the same height as the tweeters location on
face of speaker cabinets.
Scotty

Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: GDHAL on December 27, 2022, 04:47:22 PM
Hi Scotty. Happy holiday's.  :)

I certainly understand the "spirit" and validity of your post.

I'd like to preface the remainder of my reply here by reminding folks that I've previously gone on record elsewhere (another thread in this forum) to state that the number one criteria in voiceing a system is *ones own* hearing acuity AND preference (which Jason Stoddard so eloquently refers to as distortion profile).

Having stated that, in my particular case and system setup, (a) I have better than normal hearing acuity, as measured by my last audiologist visit, albeit about 2 years ago now, (b) my room set up which was professionally designed and installed by an acoustic engineering professional and treated with components manufactured by a company that purportedly develops products for an intended purpose of absorption/diffusion, and (c) I have an inborn natural affinity to sound in general, able to recognize audible frequency and sound pressure level upon just hearing it right on the spot, within a relatively fair degree of accuracy.

Of course, a mono vs stereo vs multichannel (which I do not subscribe to as far as audio playback) greatly affects the perception, as does the location of specific speaker drivers, most notably the tweeter.

However, even in the case of the tweeter, it typically has a relatively wide vertical and horizontal dispersal pattern. I'll define that even further. Usually in the high range (above 1khz) horizontal and vertical dispersal patterns can be near or exceed 45 degrees.

Hence, easy to walk blindfolded to a speaker that's firing. 8)

Best

Hal

Hal, try the same test with a mono signal playing and see what results you have. At one point in the 90s
I had an ear infection that poked a 6db deep hole centered at 500Hz in the frequency response my right ear. Verified by an audiologist at the time. The soundstage collapsed into the left channel. I thought something was desperately wrong with the stereo until I stood in the middle of the loudspeakers
with my back to them. The stereo image collapsed into the right speaker thus showing that I was the one with the problem and not the stereo. This is what prompted the trip to the audiologist.
 If the system is really working well a mono signal composed of pink or white noise
well it should show a strong central image with a height component that should extend clear to the ceiling.
 It is undesirable for image to be essentially at the same height as the tweeters location on
face of speaker cabinets.
Scotty
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: GDHAL on December 27, 2022, 05:22:46 PM
EDIT to my previous post, made in a new post because of my "obsession".

Don't get me started with video, an integral part of my audio system.

Besides my reference caliber (consumer level, not scientific) monitor, it was not only professionally calibrated by an ISF calibrator, but a duvetyne tent was employed/used while doing the calibration. NOBODY - except me - would know or even ask for such a thing. Let alone pay$$$ for it.

Yeah, even $5k per hour Joel Silver (president ISF) "knows" me.
 8)

Because, I cannot only find "dead" pixels, I can find "missing" pixels!!!

My visual acuity is also rather advanced.

Best.

Hal

EDIT: hence part of the reason my "system" is approximately 15+ percent more expensive than the sum of the gear listed in my signature line. Labor and other professional services.
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: TopRound‎ on December 27, 2022, 05:33:55 PM
Hal,
I volunteer you to host a rave!
I want to hear and really I want to see this video system.
A question from a person who knows little about video...if I may.
I bought  a samsung qled tv for xmas, do I need to have it calibrated?

I remember my friend Levi bought a gorgeous plasma when plasma was the thing, he had it calibrated and man it was gorgeous
Do we still need to do this today?

Thanks
Mike
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: GDHAL on December 27, 2022, 05:45:58 PM
Hi Mike.

You can take a virtual tour of my system by visiting my website and clicking the appropriate link to a YouTube video I posted of my system.

Here's the rub. I shot the A/V using the same device I'm responding to you now with, a Motorola G6 cell phone.

In my estimation, it can capture no more than 10 percent of the "quality" my system is capable of.

Having stated that, you and others (I can only host a maximum of two at a time based on condominium rules, not mine, because between my wife and I that makes a total of four) are always welcome to come by and check it out first hand.

Best

Hal

Hal,
I volunteer you to host a rave!
I want to hear and really I want to see this video system.
A question from a person who knows little about video...if I may.
I bought  a samsung qled tv for xmas, do I need to have it calibrated?

I remember my friend Levi bought a gorgeous plasma when plasma was the thing, he had it calibrated and man it was gorgeous
Do we still need to do this today?

Thanks
Mike
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: GDHAL on December 27, 2022, 06:05:22 PM
Mike, you've got me started  :lol:

I'll add that my PVP/PLP (primary listening and viewing position) is not randomly and flippantly plopped down. It is mathematically calculatedly to optimize both audio and video, given my preferences, monitor size, etc.

The PVP/PLP is just inside the speaker axis convergence point, and I have a secondary PVP/PLP a foot or so behind it.

And, technically I have a dance floor area behind that.

Best

Hal
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: GDHAL on December 27, 2022, 08:41:19 PM
@TopRound

Apologies. After re-reading your post I didn't answer the question you posed about your new Samsung QLED

No, you do not "need" to have it calibrated. Virtually every current model television is more than "good enough" right out of the box from the factory.

Calibration on a current model television will get you a mere 15 percent (approximate) better quality picture (grey scale, color accuracy, white balance, light output). Some folks can discern the difference, other can't. Some folks care about the difference, others don't.

If you do care and want to have your set calibrated, you *MUST* wait a minimum of 300 viewing hours on the set prior to calibration. Otherwise you've P'ed your time and money away to diode (any kind, led, oled both types, QLED, whatever) "settling drift".

Best.

Hal
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: ejk on December 28, 2022, 06:13:35 AM
No. Same tubes. Only new add is the Orchard Audio amp which was purchases after the comment. And still my speakers disappear.

Ah, glad. I was just checking as you seemed rather unsure back in Nov with the tubes breaking in.

cheers and all the best.

steve

AP speakers are known to disappear. That is one of their attributes

Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: Emil on December 28, 2022, 10:33:14 AM
No. Same tubes. Only new add is the Orchard Audio amp which was purchases after the comment. And still my speakers disappear.

Ah, glad. I was just checking as you seemed rather unsure back in Nov with the tubes breaking in.

cheers and all the best.

steve

AP speakers are known to disappear. That is one of their attributes

I can vouch for that. I have the Audio Physic Tempo Plus and I sometimes have trouble finding them.
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: GDHAL on December 28, 2022, 11:10:09 AM
No. Same tubes. Only new add is the Orchard Audio amp which was purchases after the comment. And still my speakers disappear.

Ah, glad. I was just checking as you seemed rather unsure back in Nov with the tubes breaking in.

cheers and all the best.

steve

AP speakers are known to disappear. That is one of their attributes

Evan, please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but when I was last at your place, relatively recently , you weren't using Audio Physics Classic 20 speakers, as indicated in your signature line.

Best.

Hal
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: ejk on December 28, 2022, 12:11:00 PM
No. Same tubes. Only new add is the Orchard Audio amp which was purchases after the comment. And still my speakers disappear.

Ah, glad. I was just checking as you seemed rather unsure back in Nov with the tubes breaking in.

cheers and all the best.

steve

AP speakers are known to disappear. That is one of their attributes

Evan, please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but when I was last at your place, relatively recently , you weren't using Audio Physics Classic 20 speakers, as indicated in your signature line.

Best.

Hal

Yes. I was. Maybe the cheese cake was spiked
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: GDHAL on December 28, 2022, 12:18:24 PM
No. Same tubes. Only new add is the Orchard Audio amp which was purchases after the comment. And still my speakers disappear.

Ah, glad. I was just checking as you seemed rather unsure back in Nov with the tubes breaking in.

cheers and all the best.

steve

AP speakers are known to disappear. That is one of their attributes

Evan, please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but when I was last at your place, relatively recently , you weren't using Audio Physics Classic 20 speakers, as indicated in your signature line.

Best.

Hal

Yes. I was. Maybe the cheese cake was spiked

Oh, sorry. I based my apparent incorrect observation based on this photo, taken at your place:

https://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=8577.msg106157#msg106157

And this photo from the manufacturers website of Audio Physic (not Physics) Classic 20 speakers:

https://www.audiophysic.com/en/product/classic-20/

Best.

Hal

Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: ejk on December 28, 2022, 12:44:56 PM
No. Same tubes. Only new add is the Orchard Audio amp which was purchases after the comment. And still my speakers disappear.

Ah, glad. I was just checking as you seemed rather unsure back in Nov with the tubes breaking in.

cheers and all the best.

steve

AP speakers are known to disappear. That is one of their attributes

Evan, please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but when I was last at your place, relatively recently , you weren't using Audio Physics Classic 20 speakers, as indicated in your signature line.

Best.

Hal

Yes. I was. Maybe the cheese cake was spiked

Oh, sorry. I based my apparent incorrect observation based on this photo, taken at your place:

https://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=8577.msg106157#msg106157

And this photo from the manufacturers website of Audio Physic (not Physics) Classic 20 speakers:

https://www.audiophysic.com/en/product/classic-20/

Best.

Hal



Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: GDHAL on December 28, 2022, 01:01:20 PM
No. Same tubes. Only new add is the Orchard Audio amp which was purchases after the comment. And still my speakers disappear.

Ah, glad. I was just checking as you seemed rather unsure back in Nov with the tubes breaking in.

cheers and all the best.

steve

AP speakers are known to disappear. That is one of their attributes

Evan, please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but when I was last at your place, relatively recently , you weren't using Audio Physics Classic 20 speakers, as indicated in your signature line.

Best.

Hal

Yes. I was. Maybe the cheese cake was spiked

Oh, sorry. I based my apparent incorrect observation based on this photo, taken at your place:

https://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=8577.msg106157#msg106157

And this photo from the manufacturers website of Audio Physic (not Physics) Classic 20 speakers:

https://www.audiophysic.com/en/product/classic-20/

Best.

Hal



Kewl.  8)

Those AP speakers weren't present when I was there, as evidenced by the photo I posted and all the other photos in that Rave get-together thread at that time. Perhaps you set them up after I left? In any case, you certainly have proven your point (to my satisfaction anyway) that you are in possession of those AP speakers. Enjoy!   :)
Title: Re: The Old Days
Post by: GDHAL on December 28, 2022, 01:18:43 PM
@ejk

Maybe I'm hung over. Please forgive me

The photo you just posted is , as I recall, in your downstairs space. You moved the non AP speakers upstairs (to that I'm positive, no hangover here).

You had two sets of speakers downstairs. One was on stands, and now I honestly cannot remember the other if it too were on stands. Were the AP speakers downstairs at the time of your Rave get together?

Best.

Hal


EDIT: going back further on the rave thread photos I do see that those audio physic speakers were in the downstairs area of your place. Ok. My bad bad.

Keep in mind I wrote in my initial post on this matter "Evan, please forgive me if I'm mistaken..."

So, now I ask for forgiveness, as I was mistaken.

Best.

Hal