AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: steve on August 27, 2021, 01:38:35 PM

Title: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: steve on August 27, 2021, 01:38:35 PM
A little while back I noticed the sonic/music become more full. So I started performing some experiments with the tightness of the speaker wire nuts on both the amplifier and speaker.

For newbies, the tighter the nuts, the more contact pressure, and the lower the contact resistance.

I think this aspect has been extremely neglected, having never seen a post mentioning the problem over the decades on any forum.

That is, the sonics will vary with the contact resistance of the speaker wires at both the amplifier and speakers. I am able to alter the sonics on my system by simply adjusting the contact pressure on either the speaker or amplifier connections.

Finger tight is not enough. I noticed a musical difference at every session.

First, I cleaned the connectors on both amp and speakers with a cleaner that leaves no residue. I cleaned the speaker wire ends as well. 
Next, use either a wrench or worst case pliers and tighten more, until extremely tight. This should provide some consistency in musical reproduction if one notices the sonic qualities seeming to change from session to session.

Will everyone notice a musical difference? No. If the system has masking problems, too full, a sonic difference may not be noticed.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: rollo on August 28, 2021, 08:04:00 AM
  Interesting Steve. Will give it a try. A reason to prefer spades over banana connections.

charles
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: tmazz on August 28, 2021, 01:19:00 PM
I agree, finger tight just doesn't cut it. Fir many years now I have used ab Audioquest device called The Postman. It look like a screwdriver handle with 1/2 and 7/16th sockets sunk into each hand. With an open ended or socket  wrench on a ratchet handle it is too easy to apply too much torque and strip or even break  a plastic binding post. The Postman gives you the grip of a socket but without the leverage of a wrench, making it easier to control how tight you make the binding post.

It does a great job and in audiophile terms it is a bargain at less than $20 from Amazon or any of the online high end dealers.

Highly recommended

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41NFp16SYsL._AC_SS450_.jpg)
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: rpf on August 28, 2021, 06:16:05 PM
I second Tom's post. I've also used one for a really long time and it is very easy to get a tight fit without overdoing it. Finger tight doesn't even come close to working: I found posts loosening up significantly over time with just finger pressure. The main reason I hate bananas, even the locking kind.
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: Nick B on August 28, 2021, 06:47:18 PM
It happens that this is the first time I’ve ever used bananas. I have Audio Envy and the fit is just a bit loose. So I won’t be able to try the experiment….
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: P.I. on August 28, 2021, 08:48:45 PM
These are the only banana plugs I would even consider using:

BFA banana plug - https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AABAN

They really are quite good (for a banana) and when used with graphene make very good connections.
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: Nick B on August 28, 2021, 09:06:37 PM
These are the only banana plugs I would even consider using:

BFA banana plug - https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AABAN

They really are quite good (for a banana) and when used with graphene make very good connections.

I don’t think I’ll ever get bananas again. Cap Payne of Audio Envy felt they sounded better than the spades. Speaking of graphene, I have to find my supply. Also, did you suggest using Caig  before reapplying the graphene?
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: P.I. on August 29, 2021, 10:48:15 AM
These are the only banana plugs I would even consider using:

BFA banana plug - https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AABAN

They really are quite good (for a banana) and when used with graphene make very good connections.

I don’t think I’ll ever get bananas again. Cap Payne of Audio Envy felt they sounded better than the spades. Speaking of graphene, I have to find my supply. Also, did you suggest using Caig  before reapplying the graphene?
Any type of cleaner is a good idea.  I usually use either 93% isopropyl or naphtha.
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: toobluvr on August 29, 2021, 11:31:45 AM
I too like the BFA bananas.  If they get slightly compressed and loose (which bananas always do) simply insert a thin screwdriver or hex key and gently spread it open again.  Been doing if for years and the metal never fatigues or breaks off.  Nice tight fit.  Best bananas I've ever used.    :thumb:
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: steve on August 30, 2021, 09:34:27 PM
Unfortunately, my speaker jacks are round, otherwise I would use an inch pounds tork wrench to
tighten.

For newbies, over the years, I have found banana, spades etc to be inferior to direct speaker
wire connection. Bypassing the jacks and soldering the speaker wires to the OPT leads is the
best of all, but I need flexibility to remove the amps for testing purposes.

Whether wire, banana, spade etc, it is important that the surface be completely straight and smooth, with
no slight kinks or even tiny, rough spots that would reduce the contact area, increasing the resistance.
Increasing the resistance lowers the damping factor across the entire audio band.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: tmazz on August 30, 2021, 10:48:33 PM
And like all of your other connections, keep 'em  clean!
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: tmazz on August 30, 2021, 10:51:00 PM
These are the only banana plugs I would even consider using:

BFA banana plug - https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AABAN

They really are quite good (for a banana) and when used with graphene make very good connections.

I don’t think I’ll ever get bananas again. Cap Payne of Audio Envy felt they sounded better than the spades. Speaking of graphene, I have to find my supply. Also, did you suggest using Caig  before reapplying the graphene?
Any type of cleaner is a good idea.  I usually use either 93% isopropyl or naphtha.

Dave,

Are these chemicals good on any kind of metal (gold, copper etc.) or are there any that you should avoid using them on?
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: Nick B on August 31, 2021, 12:35:42 AM
Dave,

In addition to Tom’s question, where can I buy a small quantity of the naphtha or 93% isopropyl? I’ve used 70% ethyl alcohol for years for miscellaneous uses around the house/garage and have found it’s cleaner..meaning it leaves less discernible residue to the touch. Any thoughts on the ethyl alcohol?

Nick
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: BobM on August 31, 2021, 09:44:46 AM
One more reason to tighten up ... finger tight can shake loose over time and if the wires touch ... BOOM!
 =3o
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: P.I. on August 31, 2021, 09:47:18 AM
These are the only banana plugs I would even consider using:

BFA banana plug - https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AABAN

They really are quite good (for a banana) and when used with graphene make very good connections.

I don’t think I’ll ever get bananas again. Cap Payne of Audio Envy felt they sounded better than the spades. Speaking of graphene, I have to find my supply. Also, did you suggest using Caig  before reapplying the graphene?
Any type of cleaner is a good idea.  I usually use either 93% isopropyl or naphtha.

Dave,

Are these chemicals good on any kind of metal (gold, copper etc.) or are there any that you should avoid using them on?
Both naphtha and the 93% alcohol are basically benign solvents.  They will remove oils, dirt, smoke deposits and most schmutz without harming metals, plastics or painted surfaces that we have on our gear.
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: P.I. on August 31, 2021, 09:51:07 AM
Dave,

In addition to Tom’s question, where can I buy a small quantity of the naphtha or 93% isopropyl? I’ve used 70% ethyl alcohol for years for miscellaneous uses around the house/garage and have found it’s cleaner..meaning it leaves less discernible residue to the touch. Any thoughts on the ethyl alcohol?

Nick
Ethyl alcohol is just fine.  It is an excellent cleaner.

93% isopropyl is available at drug stores like Walgreens or CVS.  Naphtha can be found in the paint departments at big box stores.  They are residueless, too.
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: tmazz on August 31, 2021, 06:13:28 PM
Dave will this do the trick?

(https://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/7025043-24.jpg)

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip-1-qt-Varnish-Maker-and-Painter-s-Naphtha-QVM46/100122813#overlay

91% Isopropyl is very easy to get around here but I have yet t find a CVS or other type store that carries 93%. Do you think 91 is close enough?

Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: P.I. on August 31, 2021, 08:45:32 PM
Dave will this do the trick?

(https://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/7025043-24.jpg)

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip-1-qt-Varnish-Maker-and-Painter-s-Naphtha-QVM46/100122813#overlay

91% Isopropyl is very easy to get around here but I have yet t find a CVS or other type store that carries 93%. Do you think 91 is close enough?
Yep, that 's the stuff.

I think I pulled 93% out of my butt.  I meant 91%  :lol:
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: steve on September 27, 2021, 03:11:08 PM
I just attempted to resolder the cathode, grid, screen, plate pins of my output tubes. Seems to have made some
sonic differences. YMMV as mine is under "lab" conditons.

But I cannot help but wonder if part of the NEW vs NOS output tube difference, besides harmonic distortion
differences, might be the quality of solder used to connect the socket pins.

Wonder if I should start a new string as I have never heard of this subject being posted before.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: GDHAL on December 23, 2022, 12:42:15 PM
Hello folks. I'm just resurrecting an old post, well just because I adamantly disagree with *all* those who've posted in this thread that (paraphrasing) finger tightening speaker wire at the amp and speaker sides just don't cut it.

Sorry, but nooooo.

Finger tight, using a glove (or cloth) which provides dexterity and the ability to tighten *a quarter turn* more than you otherwise could with bare fingers is more than enough.

Those of you using any kind of tool and tightening more than a quarter turn than you otherwise could with your bare hands are "overzealous" and in fact risk doing more harm than good.

Of course, it's your gear, so by all means do whatever you want.

Happy holiday's.

Best.

Hal
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: steve on December 24, 2022, 03:45:25 PM
Hello folks. I'm just resurrecting an old post, well just because I adamantly disagree with *all* those who've posted in this thread that (paraphrasing) finger tightening speaker wire at the amp and speaker sides just don't cut it.

Sorry, but nooooo.

Finger tight, using a glove (or cloth) which provides dexterity and the ability to tighten *a quarter turn* more than you otherwise could with bare fingers is more than enough.

Those of you using any kind of tool and tightening more than a quarter turn than you otherwise could with your bare hands are "overzealous" and in fact risk doing more harm than good.

Of course, it's your gear, so by all means do whatever you want.

Happy holiday's.

Best.

Hal

Well, unfortunately:

1. as one finger tightens the connector, the resistance decreases. Since each person has different finger strength,
the nut will be tightened to different levels.

2. Beyond finger tightening, the copper is a type of material that compresses and is springy, thus lower connection resistance. The damping factor increases due to less total resistance between amplifier and speaker.

(One reason why copper house wiring is accepted while aluminum wiring is not is that aluminum does not
compress easily, it loosens, causing a fire hazzard.)

Due to factors such as masking, and the speakers damping Q, it is possible that one won't notice a
sonic difference. Of course there is always the problem with oxidation to consider as well with finger tight.

And occasionally, yes, lessening the contact area and lessening the damping factor might help the
under damped speaker to achieve critical damping for better bass/sound. But one will have to "finger torque"
the nut exactly the same each time.

In view of the above points, and being fairly rare, one is better off to use the correct size wire and
then torque tight for proper damping to achieve the proper speaker Q. Just don't break the jack.  :)

cheers

steve
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: GDHAL on December 24, 2022, 04:05:03 PM
Steve, I've had a lot of eggnog at the moment, so please bare with me.

You started this thread. In your first post, you wrote:

Finger tight is not enough. I noticed a musical difference at every session.

I mean, you can't be serious, can you?

I'll add that you do have some valid points regarding (paraphrasing) each individual has their own unique strength with which to tighten, and about increased/decreased resistance, which can effect damping factor.

So, ok.

Now, I take your posts (all of them collectively in this thread) to imply that *you personally can hear an audible difference* between a "tight", by fingers alone, and "tighter", with a tool, or any other means.

If I'm correct as to how I take (understand) your post, I say/write "bolderdash".

Best.

Hal
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: steve on December 24, 2022, 04:22:15 PM
Steve, I've had a lot of eggnog at the moment, so please bare with me.

You started this thread. In your first post, you wrote:

Finger tight is not enough. I noticed a musical difference at every session.

I mean, you can't be serious, can you?

I'll add that you do have some valid points regarding (paraphrasing) each individual has their own unique strength with which to tighten, and about increased/decreased resistance, which can effect damping factor.

So, ok.

Now, I take your posts (all of them collectively in this thread) to imply that *you personally can hear an audible difference* between a "tight", by fingers alone, and "tighter", with a tool, or any other means.

If I'm correct as to how I take (understand) your post, I say/write "bolderdash".

Best.

Hal

That is the difference between a system whose components use only poly capacitor power supply filters directly in the
signal path etc vs a system whose components use only electrolytic capacitor filters directly in the signal path.
That is just one difference.

An electrolytic capacitor has ~250 times the DA, ESL of a good poly capacitor. You are starting to learn how 
bad electrolytic capacitors are.

cheers

steve

 

 
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: GDHAL on December 24, 2022, 04:29:19 PM
Steve, I think it's you who's had too much eggnog!!   :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: steve on December 24, 2022, 06:52:37 PM
Steve, I think it's you who's had too much eggnog!!   :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Elementary dear Watson, elementary.

Actually I don't like eggnog. But a glass of wine does sound good. :)

cheers

steve
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: GDHAL on December 24, 2022, 08:05:34 PM
Steve, you've intentionally derailed the thread topic. This isn't about capacitors.

Besides, without some sort of before-and-after measurements or at least a properly controlled ABX comparison, there's no way to gauge the effectiveness of any capacitor modification.

Capacitors will have zero, as is none whatsoever, relevance to whether or not one correctly finger tightens their wires to binding posts or correctly, but not recommended do to significant risk of damage, uses a tool or anything capable of applying more torque (and I went even further the state a quarter turn, therefore 25% or more torque) than adequate finger tightening.

The addition or absence of correct wire to binding post torque is not related to capacitors.

What type of wine do you prefer? Red, white, Malbec, Pinot Noir, something else? If you use to much force getting the cork out (presumably with a corkscrew) the cork breaks apart and splinters into the wine bottle. A similar/related thing can happen when you apply a tool (which is precisely what a corkscrew is) to a binding post on an amp and/or speaker.

Best

Hal 🍷

Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: steve on December 24, 2022, 09:10:37 PM
Steve, you've intentionally derailed the thread topic. This isn't about capacitors.

Besides, without some sort of before-and-after measurements or at least a properly controlled ABX comparison, there's no way to gauge the effectiveness of any capacitor modification.

Capacitors will have zero, as is none whatsoever, relevance to whether or not one correctly finger tightens their wires to binding posts or correctly, but not recommended do to significant risk of damage, uses a tool or anything capable of applying more torque (and I went even further the state a quarter turn, therefore 25% or more torque) than adequate finger tightening.

What type of wine do you prefer? Red, white, Malbec, Pinot Noir, something else? If you use to much force getting the cork out (presumably with a corkscrew) the cork breaks apart and splinters into the wine bottle. A similar/related thing can happen when you apply a tool (which is precisely what a corkscrew is) to a binding post on an amp and/or speaker.

Best

Hal 🍷

I have presented several times with data, including that different poly caps sound
different, yet are much much better than Electrolytic capacitors, which create masking problems.
Picking Capacitors by Walter Jung and Richard Marsh is also an excellent article with measurements.
It is very easy to understand.

Produce the measurements you think provide accurate data?
We would like to see proof, from you, that abx comparison equates to typical listening, and
is valid.

An extremely unique situation that 1/4 turn would ever equal 25% more torque.
Repeating yourself, see the answer above and previously on this string.

The cheapest, sweet wine with a screw top.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 24, 2022, 09:50:29 PM
Steve, I've had a lot of eggnog at the moment, so please bare with me.

You started this thread. In your first post, you wrote:

Finger tight is not enough. I noticed a musical difference at every session.

I mean, you can't be serious, can you?

I'll add that you do have some valid points regarding (paraphrasing) each individual has their own unique strength with which to tighten, and about increased/decreased resistance, which can effect damping factor.

So, ok.

Now, I take your posts (all of them collectively in this thread) to imply that *you personally can hear an audible difference* between a "tight", by fingers alone, and "tighter", with a tool, or any other means.

If I'm correct as to how I take (understand) your post, I say/write "bolderdash".

Best.

Hal

Hal,

Deviating ever so briefly here, my mom used to make the best egg nog EVER …(made with vodka)…. very tasty, no smoking or open flames allowed 💥 It was so good 😋 The recipe is still in an 80 year old cookbook I’ve kept. In loving memory of my dear mom 🍷

Nick
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: GDHAL on December 24, 2022, 11:13:12 PM
@Steve, uh, sorry. You're the one that started the thread with bogus claims, such as but not limited to:
Finger tight is not enough. I noticed a musical difference at every session.

I think any burdon of proof lies with you, not me.

And, I think readers of this thread can/will make up their own minds as to right/wrong, true/false. Hence one reason I've resurrected it, so that misinformation (again, to which *you* are the originator) is dispelled.

@Nick

Glad I brought you back fond memories of your mom. Merry Christmas 🎄.
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: steve on December 25, 2022, 06:28:36 AM
@Steve, uh, sorry. You're the one that started the thread with bogus claims, such as but not limited to:
Finger tight is not enough. I noticed a musical difference at every session.

I think any burdon of proof lies with you, not me.

And, I think readers of this thread can/will make up their own minds as to right/wrong, true/false. Hence one reason I've resurrected it, so that misinformation (again, to which *you* are the originator) is dispelled.

@Nick

Glad I brought you back fond memories of your mom. Merry Christmas 🎄.

We have a pretty good list of individuals here who understand electronics etc. One
would think you would want to learn from them, both tightening and cleaning.

They have agreed, including cleaning the contact surfaces to reduce resistance (alters
the damping factor) and rid of other impurities.
They understand that finger tightening is not gas tight, otherwise no need to clean the
contacts.

You have not honestly proven my statements are "bogus" since you have never performed any
dbt/abx listening testing on the subject matter. (You assume dbt/abx testing is accurate.)

As such the only statement you can honestly make is that you do not know. To
claim otherwise is deceptive, not honest.


From your standpoint, the only way to prove your statement of "bogus" is truthful and
accurate is to test every audio system in the world with varying degrees of connection tightness,
which you do not understand, thought of, let alone performed.

Now two points that your "bogus" claim makes your opinions misleading and deceptive.

I have presented scientific facts, which you obviously do not understand. The damping
factor is variable since finger tightening is not stable and the connection resistance
will fluctuate. It is not gas tight.

Once again show proof that dbt or abx listening testing equates to typical listening.

Secondly, I will ask again, when statistically half of the test subjects are in a bass increasing mode and
half are in a bass decreasing mode, how does one obtain a 95% confidence result?
(In over 10 years, only one has even attempted to respond to the question, and that only after
dodging the question post after post.)

cheers

steve

Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: TopRound‎ on December 25, 2022, 07:11:24 AM
Are we really talking about this?

Finger tightening vs using a tool?

I find when I wear one red sock and one green sock on a Saturday with a full moon that it really helps lower the noise floor of my system, I can actually hear voices from the past it's so quiet. They keep saying old lottery numbers that won in the past.
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: steve on December 25, 2022, 07:29:39 AM
Are we really talking about this?

Finger tightening vs using a tool?


That is right Top. Systems do vary in sonic quality and sensitivity due to masking, so some won't notice
the bass changing. But as one can read the responses on this string, many if not most work with the
connectors to keep the resistance low, and damping factor, as stable as possible.

No surface is perfectly smooth, and tightening copper with a tool will minimize the resistance,
resistance fluctuations, and thus damping factor variations, as well as being gas tight. It is basic
science and physics.  You do not have to if you don't want to Top. No one is
forcing you or anyone else.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: TopRound‎ on December 25, 2022, 07:50:03 AM
Steve
you must realize that 99.99 percent of us audiophiles just finger tight things, some of us do have the tool to use on 5 way binding posts
and I have found they can be very effective at connecting very stiff or thick wires that want to move in the direction they please and have a difficult time staying put.

If so many of us are doing it one way then I think that becomes the norm

Maybe at our next gathering we will try this experiment and have everyone tighten it themselves then we'll use the torque wrench and see if we hear a difference.
Maybe it works to better things!

Can I ask a tech question of you?

I gave my son a Bottlehead kit for Xmas, can you recommend a solder that sounds good ?or is regular solder good enough?

Mike
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: ejk on December 25, 2022, 08:20:10 AM
Mike I dont want you to finger anything. Thats what she said
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: TopRound‎ on December 25, 2022, 08:22:58 AM
I tighten my speakers with this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrxePKps87k&ab_channel=NickCaveandtheBadSeeds
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: GDHAL on December 25, 2022, 08:59:25 AM
@Steve, stop mixing apples with other audio edibles. First you bring capacitors into the frey, and now cleaning of contacts.

I was/am specific to one of your (ridiculous) statements which started this thread, quoted yet again for your and everyone else's convenience.

Finger tight is not enough. I noticed a musical difference at every session.

To that, I say/write (again), "bolderdash".

If I were at your place, using your gear/system, and I finger tight the connections, you will not hear a difference (all else equal) if you tighten further.

If you don't believe me and remain as obstinate as you are, I can add text that got me banned from AG having to do with betting money. If you want to go that route, you have my email address. Write me with your phone number. You and I can reach an agreement in principal to which I'll have my attorney contact yours. We will each need to deposit six figures into an escrow account. Winner take all. What do you say?

Best.

Hal

 8)
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: steve on December 25, 2022, 10:12:50 AM
@Steve, stop mixing apples with other audio edibles. First you bring capacitors into the frey, and now cleaning of contacts.

I was/am specific to one of your (ridiculous) statements which started this thread, quoted yet again for your and everyone else's convenience.

Finger tight is not enough. I noticed a musical difference at every session.

To that, I say/write (again), "bolderdash".

If I were at your place, using your gear/system, and I finger tight the connections, you will not hear a difference (all else equal) if you tighten further.

If you don't believe me and remain as obstinate as you are, I can add text that got me banned from AG having to do with betting money. If you want to go that route, you have my email address. Write me with your phone number. You and I can reach an agreement in principal to which I'll have my attorney contact yours. We will each need to deposit six figures into an escrow account. Winner take all. What do you say?

Best.

Hal

 8)

The fact is that you are spreading ignorance disguised as hype. When your damping factor is
affected, the sound is affected. Disputing that fact is not helpful to the audio community, nor
to you.

It is sad, and also quite obvious why you were kicked out of another forum. My bet would be you
got kicked out of the forum not only for betting, but your ignorance of basic science.

No, mentioning cleaning was brought up by others on page 1. And it does affect the contact resistance
and damping, thus musical quality.

"If I were at your place, using your gear/system, and I finger tight the connections, you will not hear a difference (all else equal) if you tighten further."

Well of course you would say that. Are you going to argue against yourself.  :roll:
Your last paragraph mimics the quote you just used. Are you going to bet against yourself. Of course not.
So your wager is nothing more than a cheap trick. 

You also refused to answer either question concerning listening testing credibility, yet again. 

It is so sad to see someone starting an argument on a string that he/she understands virtually nothing about,
because it so negatively influences others who want to learn.

steve
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: S Clark on December 25, 2022, 10:34:46 AM
@Steve,...

To that, I say/write (again), "bolderdash".

If I were at your place, using your gear/system, and I finger tight the connections, you will not hear a difference (all else equal) if you tighten further.

If you don't believe me and remain as obstinate as you are, ...
Why is it so necessary to be rude.  You've made your point that you don't agree with him.  That's as far as you need go.   Clearly you don't think it matters... to your ears on your system
I've stopped telling people what they hear on their systems. 
C'mon.  It's Christmas.  Peace.
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: GDHAL on December 25, 2022, 10:46:57 AM
@Steve,...

To that, I say/write (again), "bolderdash".

If I were at your place, using your gear/system, and I finger tight the connections, you will not hear a difference (all else equal) if you tighten further.

If you don't believe me and remain as obstinate as you are, ...
Why is it so necessary to be rude.  You've made your point that you don't agree with him.  That's as far as you need go.   Clearly you don't think it matters... to your ears on your system
I've stopped telling people what they hear on their systems. 
C'mon.  It's Christmas.  Peace.

Christmas 🎄. True that.

By the way I'm not telling anybody what they *claim* they can or cannot hear on their system. Instead,  I'm in this case willing to wager that they cannot hear what they ( in this case Steve specifically) claims he can hear.

The name of the science I'm speaking of is referred to as "science of legal tender". That particular science has an uncanny way of separating fiction from nonfiction. And, let's face it, as much as audiophilia is a hobby, it's also a business (albeit not for all).

At this stage of the thread, I'm interested in the business portion of it. Sorry if that comes across as "rude".

So far no PM.

Best

Hal

EDIT: oh and S Clark, "peace" is something I practice and celebrate every day, not just Christmas.

Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: steve on December 25, 2022, 11:55:31 AM
@Steve,...

To that, I say/write (again), "bolderdash".

If I were at your place, using your gear/system, and I finger tight the connections, you will not hear a difference (all else equal) if you tighten further.

If you don't believe me and remain as obstinate as you are, ...
Why is it so necessary to be rude.  You've made your point that you don't agree with him.  That's as far as you need go.   Clearly you don't think it matters... to your ears on your system
I've stopped telling people what they hear on their systems. 
C'mon.  It's Christmas.  Peace.

Christmas 🎄. True that.

By the way I'm not telling anybody what they *claim* they can or cannot hear on their system. Instead,  I'm in this case willing to wager that they cannot hear what they ( in this case Steve specifically) claims he can hear.

The name of the science I'm speaking of is referred to as "science of legal tender".

That particular science has an uncanny way of separating fiction from nonfiction. And, let's face it, as much as audiophilia is a hobby, it's also a business (albeit not for all).

At this stage of the thread, I'm interested in the business portion of it. Sorry if that comes across as "rude".

So far no PM.

Best

Hal

EDIT: oh and S Clark, "peace" is something I practice and celebrate every day, not just Christmas.

The shilling possibility appears to be much more in your corner.

I have been retired, no manufacturing, for 10+ years. You have reviews somewhat prominent on
your website.

I have recommended competitors products such as Herron, Ultra-verve, Belles Refernce 350 amp.
I have no affiliation with them.
You have only recommended the components in Your system.

I have not had a website up for years. You have a large website with reviews of your
components somewhat prominent.

I have nothing to gain since I have not manufactured pre and amps for more than 10 years.
You have advertised, in no uncertain terms, that your 10K system beats 100k systems.

I would say gdhal, you are way ahead of me with the possibility of shilling. 

The "science of legal tender" he mentions is nothing more than dbt/abx testing,
possibly measurements which he has stated in several strings, including a deleted string.

His understanding of electronics is virtually zero, as evidenced of his continued evading
of any scientific answers, and asking the same questions over and over because of is lack
of understanding.

If you really want peace, you could have left the string after agreeing to disagree.

cheers

steve





 




Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: GDHAL on December 25, 2022, 12:26:26 PM
If you really want peace, leave the string in agreeing to disagree.


Steve, at least in this thread you haven't misquoted me, except for the fact that I've stated elsewhere my system is $30k, not 10, competitive with $100k systems.

Fine, I agree to disagree.

Best. And Merry Christmas 🎄.

Hal

EDIT: just going on record to note that you revised your last post after I quoted you, Steve. No problem with that. You're certainly entitled to do so. But I'm entitled to notice  8)
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: S Clark on December 25, 2022, 02:00:43 PM
(https://media.tenor.com/XWGtWafRWzEAAAAM/charlie-brown-good-grief.gif)
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: GDHAL on December 25, 2022, 02:15:52 PM
(https://media.tenor.com/XWGtWafRWzEAAAAM/charlie-brown-good-grief.gif)

@S Clark

No.

A foolish heart will cause you grief and often make you curse. - Grateful Dead


Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: _Scotty_ on December 25, 2022, 03:22:25 PM
It should be noted that contact resistance is a function of surface area. The bigger the better. Increased pressure shouldn't affect the resistance that much unless it substantially flattens an irregular surface present on a contact.
 A milliohm meter is required to really gain insight into what is happening.
Without the proper instruments we are reduced to conjecture.
Milliohm Meters are very expensive unfortunately. I have not invested in one.
 Scotty
Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: GDHAL on December 25, 2022, 03:34:08 PM
It should be noted that contact resistance is a function of surface area. The bigger the better. Increased pressure shouldn't affect the resistance that much unless it substantially flattens an irregular surface present on a contact.
 A milliohm meter is required to really gain insight into what is happening.
Without the proper instruments we are reduced to conjecture.
Milliohm Meters are very expensive unfortunately. I have not invested in one.
 Scotty

+1!

And, add to that whether or not one (as certain folks on this thread who shall remain nameless) can *hear* any difference!!

Hence the reason I propose(d) a terrific monetary opportunity for those who do have superhuman hearing.

 :rofl: 8) :rofl: 8) :rofl: 8)

Best.

Hal

p.s. lengthening or shortening your same speaker wire by one foot has MUCH more of an impact from a measurable (albeit that too not audible) perspective than tightening terminals beyond tightly/strongly applied bare finger strength.

 :lol:


Title: Re: Speaker Wire Connections on Amp and Speakers
Post by: Nick B on December 25, 2022, 03:47:50 PM
I’m done. I’m putting the padlock on this for now. If Jeremy wants to unlock it, I hope he at least waits until December 26th.

I hope you all are enjoying your day, maybe with family or friends, whether you are celebrating Christmas or just the holiday season.

Nick