AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Psycho-Acoustics => Topic started by: StereoNut on April 29, 2021, 12:16:25 PM
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I'm planning ahead for an eventual move of my main system into a smaller listening room. (My system is listed in my signature below.) I know that the only choice I have for speaker placement will be on the short wall of the room. (See the "X"'s on the attached diagram.) I need to plan all of this out so I know where the electric will need to be. And you have my permission to giggle, but keep in mind that I haven't moved my system in over 30 years!
>>> Note: None of the furniture that's shown will be in this room. <<<
- The wall behind the speakers is windowed clear across. (I'm guessing that I am ordering drapes of some sort!?!)
- The right side wall will have a 6ft. tall x 11ft. wide bookcase/cabinet that will be used for LP's, CD's and misc. audio stuff. It's not anchored yet, so it can be moved further in/out within the depth of the room.
- Radiator is centered along the window wall up to sill height.
- I was hoping to place my equipment on two side-by-side audio racks (maybe 3 or 4 shelves each, so my turntable isn't over my head!) centered on that front wall, but I'm concerned over that being too close to the radiator. Also worried that bringing the equipment too far out into the room will interfere with my speakers.
Of course, please tell me what else I need to worry about.
Signed,
Bill
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Good luck on this, Bill. I’ll be curious what the guys come up with as I don’t know squat about room acoustics…
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I'd consider putting the racks on the right wall next to the bookcase / cabinet.
Keeps the window view clear and eliminates the possibility of soundstage interference, and radiators heating up gear.
What's that you say? Now you need longer speaker cables, and ugliness is introduced as they snake
across the floor? :-k
Get some Duelund DCA16 gauge. Six weeks ago I rewired my system with it and I love it. Well balanced, natural and organic, harmonically complete.
On occasion you find it cheap when guys buy bulk for DIY projects, and then sell off the unused. I paid $1.75 per foot.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175406.msg1849563#msg1849563
Not horrible when dealers discount it to $3 per ft ($5 per ft normal price):
https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-81415.html
Super thin and flexible, easy to route. Can even place it under an area rug if you don't like seeing the left cable crossing the entire floor. (blasphemy, I know......apologies to the cable elevator adherrents :rofl:)
Lots of stuff online about it, especially the Jeff Day blogs / reviews.
Just a thought.....
As far as treating room acoustics -- no idea. I don't use anything other than natural room stuff like carpet, soft furniture and irregular surfaces created by bookcases / record racks. And I try to put lots of air around the speakers to reduce room effects as much as possible. You obviously need to deal with the windows. I had a similar situation with wall of windows behind my speakers. I just installed some heavy curtains. Seemed to work fine. The fact that the speakers were well forward into the room probably also helped. See my avatar and the red curtains behind my rack.
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Thanks, gentlemen. I appreciate your comments/suggestions. :thumb:
SN
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I'd consider putting the racks on the right wall next to the bookcase / cabinet.
Keeps the window view clear and eliminates the possibility of soundstage interference, and radiators heating up gear.
What's that you say? Now you need longer speaker cables, and ugliness is introduced as they snake
across the floor? :-k
Get some Duelund DCA16 gauge. Six weeks ago I rewired my system with it and I love it. Well balanced, natural and organic, harmonically complete.
On occasion you find it cheap when guys buy bulk for DIY projects, and then sell off the unused. I paid $1.75 per foot.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175406.msg1849563#msg1849563
Not horrible when dealers discount it to $3 per ft ($5 per ft normal price):
https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-81415.html
Super thin and flexible, easy to route. Can even place it under an area rug if you don't like seeing the left cable crossing the entire floor. (blasphemy, I know......apologies to the cable elevator adherrents :rofl:)
Lots of stuff online about it, especially the Jeff Day blogs / reviews.
Just a thought.....
As far as treating room acoustics -- no idea. I don't use anything other than natural room stuff like carpet, soft furniture and irregular surfaces created by bookcases / record racks. And I try to put lots of air around the speakers to reduce room effects as much as possible. You obviously need to deal with the windows. I had a similar situation with wall of windows behind my speakers. I just installed some heavy curtains. Seemed to work fine. The fact that the speakers were well forward into the room probably also helped. See my avatar and the red curtains behind my rack.
Just curious…what brand connectors did you use?
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None. Bare wire. Doing my research, that's what all the guys that are into this "vintage-ish" cable say is best.
Fine by me. Save some bux.
Also eliminated my jumpers in the process -- more savings. Just strip it long enough such that it runs up through both pair of binding posts. I saw another guy who didn't have binding posts with holes just wrap it around the lower post, then wrap it around the upper post, then tighten down and secure with the nuts. Certainly can't argue with the purist approach, and reducing links in the chain.
Like this, except I don't know how he managed to keep the insulation on the end, and still thread it through the binding post holes.
(https://positive-feedback.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/18-close-up-of-the-HL5-binding-posts-767x1024.jpg)
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None. Bare wire. Doing my research, that's what all the guys that are into this "vintage-ish" cable say is best.
Fine by me. Save some bux.
Also eliminated my jumpers in the process -- more savings. Just strip it long enough such that it runs up through both pair of binding posts. I saw another guy who didn't have binding posts with holes just wrap it around the lower post, then wrap it around the upper post, then tighten down and secure with the nuts. Certainly can't argue with the purist approach, and reducing links in the chain.
Like this, except I don't know how he managed to keep the insulation on the end, and still thread it through the binding post holes.
(https://positive-feedback.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/18-close-up-of-the-HL5-binding-posts-767x1024.jpg)
Well, it looks quite good and if it sounds great, that’s all that matters :thumb:
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The room dimensions aren't bad. The main issue is the glass behind the speaker location. I'd get rid of the blinds, and get a set of heavy curtains. Add a pair of bass traps for the corners, and you've got the makings of a nice room. I like diffusers between speakers, and some may suggest absorbers at midway point to the listening position on the sidewalls.
But I'd wait for Dave to chime in. He knows much more than I do.
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Decent size room. Set speakers 7 ft apart center to center. Bring out 1/3 into room for starters for starters. Amps can be put on floor keeping speaker cables the same. Maybe a longer IC. I would be happy to come over and help ya. My architectural/audio services are free for you.
charles
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Hi Charles
Thanks for the instructions and offer to help. I am months away from this actually happening. I’m just planning ahead and gathering up ideas. As usual, thanks for being a great resource for all things audio.
Bill
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I'd consider putting the racks on the right wall next to the bookcase / cabinet.
Keeps the window view clear and eliminates the possibility of soundstage interference, and radiators heating up gear.
What's that you say? Now you need longer speaker cables, and ugliness is introduced as they snake
across the floor? :-k
Get some Duelund DCA16 gauge. Six weeks ago I rewired my system with it and I love it. Well balanced, natural and organic, harmonically complete.
On occasion you find it cheap when guys buy bulk for DIY projects, and then sell off the unused. I paid $1.75 per foot.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175406.msg1849563#msg1849563
Not horrible when dealers discount it to $3 per ft ($5 per ft normal price):
https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-81415.html
Super thin and flexible, easy to route. Can even place it under an area rug if you don't like seeing the left cable crossing the entire floor. (blasphemy, I know......apologies to the cable elevator adherrents :rofl:)
Lots of stuff online about it, especially the Jeff Day blogs / reviews.
Just a thought.....
As far as treating room acoustics -- no idea. I don't use anything other than natural room stuff like carpet, soft furniture and irregular surfaces created by bookcases / record racks. And I try to put lots of air around the speakers to reduce room effects as much as possible. You obviously need to deal with the windows. I had a similar situation with wall of windows behind my speakers. I just installed some heavy curtains. Seemed to work fine. The fact that the speakers were well forward into the room probably also helped. See my avatar and the red curtains behind my rack.
Hey John, how's the bass with those cables? Do you find they have a good, extended, frequency balance?
South Carolina, huh. How do you like it?
Bill, I second what John said about moving the racks to the side wall. Unless the speakers are completely in front of the racks, placing the racks between the speakers will seriously screw up the soundstage.
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Hi Rob....
Good bass, frequency range sounds complete to me. To sum up succinctly -- smooth, balanced and natural. I likey. And I really like the no fuss / no muss bare wire sans connectors purist approach, and the thin-like-shoelace routing / flexibility. And of course, the price! :thumb:
SC? Friggin HUMID!! :rofl:
But winters are nice.
Almost ended up real close to you, Delray Beach. Long story for a private chat.
Take Care....
- John
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Thanks John. I think I'll try them, although I notice that your links are to hookup cable so four individual runs would have to be ordered. That might actually be more convenient for me and is definitely a little less expensive than ordering the equivalent gauge speaker cable. However does the hookup wire have the same oil impregnated cotton covering as the speaker cable and is it otherwise identical to the latter? There is also a heavier gauge speaker cable that might be interesting (12awg as opposed to 16awg).
PS: Send me a PM or call; I want to hear your story about how you ended up where you are and more about the area.
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Thanks John. I think I'll try them, although I notice that your links are to hookup cable so four individual runs would have to be ordered. That might actually be more convenient for me and is definitely a little less expensive than ordering the equivalent gauge speaker cable. However does the hookup wire have the same oil impregnated cotton covering as the speaker cable and is it otherwise identical to the latter? There is also a heavier gauge speaker cable that might be interesting (12awg as opposed to 16awg).
PS: Send me a PM or call; I want to hear your story about how you ended up where you are and more about the area.
Yes, it gets a little confusing, this is what I've determined from research and the partsconnexion (PC) website.
(1) if you buy the individual runs of "hookup wire", you need 2 runs per speaker. I just gently twist them together like shown in the photos here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155917.0
If you have bi-wire speakers and feel experimental, you can do 4 runs to each speaker. In my research I came across some comments (Jeff Day?) about nothing positive provided. Plus, things might get a little jammed up on the amp end. In my own case, initially I just wanted to try the single run.....see if I liked it.....and could always add a 2nd set in the future if I wanted to. Single run sounds so good on my bi-wire speakers, I have no desire to do so.
(2) If you read the earlier link to my AC seller, and the PC catalog, it does describe these individual runs of "hookup wire" as having the "cotton oil" covering.
Be careful, PC also sells Duelund cable with a Poly jacket instead of the "cotton oil:
https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-84782.html
(3) I'm pretty sure -- but not 100% definite -- that only diff between what PC calls "hookup wire" vs "speaker cable" is that the latter contains the 2 runs of the hookup wire inside of a braided outer jacket. Just like a traditional SC, so per speaker you just order the length you need.
at current prices, the 12awg "speaker cable" is the better deal:
https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-82323.html
https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-87080.html
(4) 12awg vs 16awg: TBH I didn't sweat it too much. My understanding is that the heavier gauge is for higher power situations. I'm moving to efficient speakers and low power tubes so I figure 16awg is fine. Plus, from what I could gather in my internet browsing, the 16 just seems to be the more popular choice. IIRC the few comparisons I did come across describes the 12 as maybe faster and a bit leaner and more resolved, while the 16 has a more relaxed and natural organic quality. I tend to gravitate to the latter.
PS: I enjoyed the SC so much that I bought this IC:
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649707043-duelund-dca16ga-with-kle-copper-harmony-rca-interconnects/
It too sounds very nice. And great price when you consider the connectors alone cost about 50 bux. And I love love love how flexible and easy to route this stuff is. Sick and tired of thick / stiff / heavy pretentious audiophile cable. Ridic. Time to simplify.
I'll give you a call.
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I was reading through this article this morning and was surprised by this comment:
"Avoid left / right symmetry, especially with respect to corners, halls and walls. It’s okay to have your speakers symmetrical with each other, but make sure they’re not exactly symmetrical to the room."
https://www.aperionaudio.com/blogs/aperion-audio-blog/2-channel-stereo-speaker-placement
Whatta you guys thinking on this?
Thanks,
SN
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Since you plan to put speakers on the short wall of a room that is basically a rectangular box, it's kindof impossible to avoid symmetry with the room. Only way to do so is place them on longer wall, shifted to one side, such that the distance to sidewalls is different.
Another way is with an across the corner diagonal setup. I've done this in a few rooms, with good success. Photo below is my current room -- very large, partial cathedral ceilings, open layout into DR and kitch. I tried the speakers setup traditionally on window wall and wall you see to the right. Wall to left (not in pic) is possible but it has big double doors out to porch -- not good from a living standpoint -- so I didn't try it.
Sounds best this way. Just experiment and use your ears.
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Everything i have read says you want symmetry.
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Everything i have read says you want symmetry.
Same here.
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Waiting for Dave to comment…. whaddya think??
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Everything i have read says you want symmetry.
That's exactly why I made the comment, Jimmy. I always thought the same as you and John.
I guess we'll all wait for Dave! :D
SN
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Since you plan to put speakers on the short wall of a room that is basically a rectangular box, it's kindof impossible to avoid symmetry with the room. Only way to do so is place them on longer wall, shifted to one side, such that the distance to sidewalls is different.
Another way is with an across the corner diagonal setup. I've done this in a few rooms, with good success. Photo below is my current room -- very large, partial cathedral ceilings, open layout into DR and kitch. I tried the speakers setup traditionally on window wall and wall you see to the right. Wall to left (not in pic) is possible but it has big double doors out to porch -- not good from a living standpoint -- so I didn't try it.
Sounds best this way. Just experiment and use your ears.
I'll second on the corner diagonal setup. I too have had good luck, sometimes making the diagonal not perfectly lined up into the corner. By skewing the angle into the corner I've been able on some occasions to combat the imaging shifting off to the side due to a window or nearby wall. With a diagonal placement and some acoustic treatments I was able to get a bedroom to sound delightfully good, far beyond my expectations.
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Since you plan to put speakers on the short wall of a room that is basically a rectangular box, it's kindof impossible to avoid symmetry with the room. Only way to do so is place them on longer wall, shifted to one side, such that the distance to sidewalls is different.
Another way is with an across the corner diagonal setup. I've done this in a few rooms, with good success. Photo below is my current room -- very large, partial cathedral ceilings, open layout into DR and kitch. I tried the speakers setup traditionally on window wall and wall you see to the right. Wall to left (not in pic) is possible but it has big double doors out to porch -- not good from a living standpoint -- so I didn't try it.
Sounds best this way. Just experiment and use your ears.
I'll second on the corner diagonal setup. I too have had good luck, sometimes making the diagonal not perfectly lined up into the corner. By skewing the angle into the corner I've been able on some occasions to combat the imaging shifting off to the side due to a window or nearby wall. With a diagonal placement and some acoustic treatments I was able to get a bedroom to sound delightfully good, far beyond my expectations.
Hi Tim. Welcome to AN :thumb:
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Glad to have you aboard Tim. :thumb:
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Bill, They should be symmetrical to the room, side and back walls especially. See website for Acoustic Fields
https://www.acousticfields.com/videos/
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Bill, They should be symmetrical to the room, side and back walls especially. See website for Acoustic Fields
https://www.acousticfields.com/videos/
I really enjoy watching Dennis Foley’s videos and am learning a lot.
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in smaller rooms especially, i'm definitely in agreement w/the comment you quoted. have your left or right speaker a few inches closer or further away from its nearest side wall than the other. it will help load the room better. by the looks of your diagram, where the x's are, you have that already, if you're actually going to place the speakers there. (but i'm w/charles - move the speakers further into the room; slide everything rearward, maybe even the bookshelf/record cabinet.)
and i'd also consider sound absorption at the 1st sidewall reflection points; makes a nice difference in a narrow room. depending on the shelving on the right side, that may act in this fashion all by itself, and you would only have to put something on the left side.
definitely agree about curtains on the windows, and nothing between the speakers, w/exception of amp/s on the floor. and, maybe it's possible to have the shelving split in two, so that it can be moved all the way to the back of the room on each side? then your audio gear except amp/s can be on the side wall in front of one of the shelves, and the room remains as wide as possible, w/a place for proper sound absorption at the 1st reflection points to the listening position.
my idea:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/X8005MiIhMkd5gidYX-FOyP8vIfz4jRWuIBna30oGxiy0q5GwmTMICufuiDe5nqYiJbWbduNFx7hLu7N7ZDJbeZ0t6iBE1wFw-O-ykqJLu061WeMK2vVNuNfSDxYvDfDQcyTPX-K0E88keyHElJ2VgA8Wgp4Sa2q6_u3sHtPl7OgvtEb9NhPY0zhdEZ5MTVL0_gNUlw6jVtWIuSFdW4TKDA57Okq5LxEv5ewPp4F5V5DdDNGG6lS4VZIaLqXkczyzIV7xzVudD8kFAL4DG5KTCsslBJi3P3D_KRAKREi6UTeoKCW3pBxJW89SsnaNHfYxiNyNzhy8j3cXHJ6cenpJF7REiCxlIwdVCDgSkPuEpwo6gAPIwRkLQgQZq5a4uEOjHHkcXQ1GIH_Kh_MRjT9vEl0Ofw0Unw9YInjISn0igGe-wiHGrFEuVHpejLlE2O0GGoWavlOz50e1yWKDMHd_96YCegzwmbwr-gKdSQcm_fOy7Y7vkqEhdL5ts4RQWyEzSSkL5bqylnOlFXH7CgNd9oRjyIRUdGNzAmE9-AWsuRC67PCYHTTfUQKzfUvyBXtcbbKouj3hK3c772uku1vAPSYYiBQU0dpnYtHyoo8YH1Qk9JlX7TwPO_t2CP73mVXIhOE6JiGCEqJaqXAPoXEzjAMtwfFs7pYtI8scx1nmpYejvKJ6zKhrYkQOEiMLLd9G2c0Afv29cUO7UVPLEmAj0UK=w387-h690-no?authuser=0)
doug s.
I was reading through this article this morning and was surprised by this comment:
"Avoid left / right symmetry, especially with respect to corners, halls and walls. It’s okay to have your speakers symmetrical with each other, but make sure they’re not exactly symmetrical to the room."
https://www.aperionaudio.com/blogs/aperion-audio-blog/2-channel-stereo-speaker-placement
Whatta you guys thinking on this?
Thanks,
SN
That is it in a nutshell. You moved in now so ????
charles
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we can agree to disagree. you can get rid of room nodes by slightly shifting the distance between side walls a few inches, per my prior comments. (genesis loudspeakers agrees w/me. i recently read it in one of their manuals i was perusing. or i agree w/them? heh!)
ymmv,
doug s.
Bill, They should be symmetrical to the room, side and back walls especially. See website for Acoustic Fields
https://www.acousticfields.com/videos/
Absolutely 100% agree. Using the Sheffield break in disc there is a in phase out of phase track to adjust ones speakers. If not getting a center image in phase and a coming to you from all around the room image adjusting one speakers toe in or position is moved. Usuall a minor move of ONE SPEAKER. Either toe in or position. Works every time
charles