AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: jimbones on March 02, 2015, 05:59:52 AM
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So i have spent the past 3 years systematically rebuilding my system piece by piece. 2 Nights ago my wife and i are in the man cave and we are discussing all that I have done over this time. I have the last piece: an Audio Research SP8 tube preamp and she is trying to convince me to upgrade. :rofl: Would you believe that! :shock: She says that I have upgraded everything in my system and that I shouldn't stop there and to get a new preamp and enjoy it. Bless her heart. :D/
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So i have spent the past 3 years systematically rebuilding my system piece by piece. 2 Nights ago my wife and i are in the man cave and we are discussing all that I have done over this time. I have the last piece: an Audio Research SP8 tube preamp and she is trying to convince me to upgrade. :rofl: Would you believe that! :shock: She says that I have upgraded everything in my system and that I shouldn't stop there and to get a new preamp and enjoy it. Bless her heart. :D/
My experience says she has bought something expensive for herself and is urging you to do the same, so when you find out about her purchase you will not be able to fault her. :rofl:
Greg
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That's when you say "thank you dear", and move on.
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My wife does not make extravagent purchases. I almost wish she did. She makes many many small useless purchases with nothing to show for it. I'd rather she get something awesome once in a while.
In any event, suggestions for upgraded preamp? :drool:
I'd prefer tube but doesnt need to be. I'd like it to have a phono stage and remote volume control. I like buying preowned.
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Can you get me a vile of whatever it was that you slipped into her drink at dinner? :shock:
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lol
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Cool. Don't ask any questions and just go. As for a preamp how about a Modwright preamp to match with your amp? I don't remember the exact model # but there was one that with tube rectification and lots of tubes with a good phono section. (Modwright 9.0SE??)
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Cool. Don't ask any questions and just go. As for a preamp how about a Modwright preamp to match with your amp? I don't remember the exact model # but there was one that with tube rectification and lots of tubes with a good phono section. (Modwright 9.0SE??)
Thats what I was thinking. Too bad you don't see them used too often.
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Buy her a diamond necklace now, while she is still in this weakened state, and you will rule the roost for 1000 years.
I'd be considering:
Wild abandoned Tube Joy:
DeHavilland UltraVerve or Mercury
Cary SLP-05
Melody 101 or 2866
Clean tube warmth:
Manley Steelhead (phono and line)
ARC Ref3
VTL TL5.5
Solid state calm transparency:
Parasound JC2
SMc Audio VRE
DIY opamp :D
Passive:
Bent Autoformer
Definitely get a remote. And as Dean says, buy once, cry once.
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Buy her a diamond necklace now, while she is still in this weakened state, and you will rule the roost for 1000 years.
I'd be considering:
Wild abandoned Tube Joy:
DeHavilland UltraVerve or Mercury
Cary SLP-05
Melody 101 or 2866
Clean tube warmth:
Manley Steelhead (phono and line)
ARC Ref3
VTL TL5.5
Solid state calm transparency:
Parasound JC2
SMc Audio VRE
DIY opamp :D
Passive:
Bent Autoformer
Definitely get a remote. And as Dean says, buy once, cry once.
While you you have the green light why stop at the Reference 3, just go all the way to the Ref 10.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tube-audio-research-reference-10-pre-amp-excellent-2015-02-10-preamplifiers-33172-miami-fl--2
Sure it cost as much as a small SUV, but you only live once, and besides once you blow 19 grand on a preamp you will never be allowed to buy another piece of stereo gear as long as you live, so you better get it while you can. :rofl:
Isn't it fun spending somebody else's money for them? :thumb:
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Isn't it fun spending somebody else's money for them? :thumb:
Sure it's fun! All of us live vicariously through the purchases of new toys by our fellow Nervosians! :rofl:
Check out the Audionote M-9 Phono & Pre-amp listed in the attached pic. It's a bargain that's on sale for almost HALF OFF!
SN
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How sweet is that! I'd turn on the TV when you get home from work to see if its on the QVC or HSN channels........
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Buy her a diamond necklace now, while she is still in this weakened state, and you will rule the roost for 1000 years.
I'd be considering:
Wild abandoned Tube Joy:
DeHavilland UltraVerve or Mercury
Cary SLP-05
Melody 101 or 2866
Clean tube warmth:
Manley Steelhead (phono and line)
ARC Ref3
VTL TL5.5
Solid state calm transparency:
Parasound JC2
SMc Audio VRE
DIY opamp :D
Passive:
Bent Autoformer
Definitely get a remote. And as Dean says, buy once, cry once.
Thanks Rich. You nicely laid out some choices.
Jim
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Thanks Rich. You nicely laid out some choices.
Jim
Oh, sure Jim. What's the matter with MY recommendation!?!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Bill
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Thanks Rich. You nicely laid out some choices.
Jim
Oh, sure Jim. What's the matter with MY recommendation!?!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Bill
Hardi, Har, har!
NORTON!!
I would have to take out a home equity loan to pay for that one!
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OK Rich, Those are a bit out of my price range as well.
Are these alternatives good?
VTL 2.5? Cary SLP 98?
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Cool. Don't ask any questions and just go. As for a preamp how about a Modwright preamp to match with your amp? I don't remember the exact model # but there was one that with tube rectification and lots of tubes with a good phono section. (Modwright 9.0SE??)
Sounds like theModWright LS-100 to me.
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Get Dolby! :rofl:
http://youtu.be/TxQqWSnsHoA
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Short of having a phone stage, I put our Melody P2688 against anything in existing up to $20K. :)
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Getting weak knees already? :rofl:
SLP-98 is sideways step from where you are now, imo. I'd rather have an UltraVerve.
VTL is much better, top echelon brand, very clean, low distortion, well engineered, but priced very far from "value leader." $4000 with phono stage.
Budget? Amps? MM/MC?
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Getting a different pre amp always freaks me out. I'd be like Scotty from Star Trek
"Are you understanding what you are saying? A new pre amp! I don't have the power in the main thrusters i just cant get another preamp! You think its just that easy"
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Getting weak knees already? :rofl:
SLP-98 is sideways step from where you are now, imo. I'd rather have an UltraVerve.
VTL is much better, top echelon brand, very clean, low distortion, well engineered, but priced very far from "value leader." $4000 with phono stage.
Budget? Amps? MM/MC?
I definitely don'ty want a sideways step.
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What about Vac Sigma?
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A mere bag of shells, Norton!
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So i have spent the past 3 years systematically rebuilding my system piece by piece. 2 Nights ago my wife and i are in the man cave and we are discussing all that I have done over this time. I have the last piece: an Audio Research SP8 tube preamp and she is trying to convince me to upgrade. :rofl: Would you believe that! :shock: She says that I have upgraded everything in my system and that I shouldn't stop there and to get a new preamp and enjoy it. Bless her heart. :D/
You have to encourage your wife to hang out with mine more often... maybe some of that thinking will "rub off" !?!?!
:lol:
SN
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What about Vac Sigma?
"Tube compliment: [from manual]
3 x 12AX7 (phono option) (located on circuit board at left side of chassis)
2 x 12AU7/6189A (line stage)
2 x 12AX7 (line stage)"
Regulated PS, pretty similar to your SP8. I don't know if the change would be worth the hassle. VAC makes some nice stuff.
You are DIYer, so what about a kit? Aikido Octal is a solid choice. It sounds great and has an easy to assemble kit. With some excellent tubes you could build it for <$1000. It would be better than SP8. You would lose half of your parts investment and all of your labor investment if you sell it, but that is still cheap. The sound is VERY good. You could put an aikido phono stage in the same box. There are other preamp designs worthy of building.
Another option is Van alstine T9. They have been sounding MUCH better in the last few years. The AVA sound used to be fast and clean with minimal soul. But maybe the new T9 with 6CG7s has a little more body. I had a T8 with russian tubes, it was midfi sounding smiley face EQ. So you have to listen before you buy. They have refund policy but you have to battle with Frank on the phone. I heard the newer stuff a couple years ago it was excellent. Incredible value. SS opamp phono stage, remote, new <$2000.
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If you are thinking about DIY try a 26 based system or 4P1L system with transformer output. Both tubes do have the tendency be to microphonic (sp?) so you will have to account for that. I own a 4P1L based system and have heard Roberts (Maxmillion's) 26 based pre.
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no DIY!! :duh
I've got time to think this through. SS is quieter than tube but tibes are lucious sounding. I'll have to give some thought to my budget. Apparently from what I am seeing $2500-3000 used will only get me a "sideways" move. I may have to up that. I really don't want to go up to $4000 if i dont have to.
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Buy the same one I have!
http://www.primaluna-usa.com/product-main/prologue-premium/pro-prem-pre
SN
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If you want ultra quiet and DIY, highly recommend Transcendent "Masterpiece". Really silent and topology is smart. Fellow DIY'ers are loving it.
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Bill, that's a nice preamp. I see they finally decided that a remote control volume does not hurt the sound quality. That used to be their excuse for not offering a remote control.
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Bill, that's a nice preamp. I see they finally decided that a remote control volume does not hurt the sound quality. That used to be their excuse for not offering a remote control.
Thanks, Perfessor! I've been lovin' the Primaluna in my system. Extremely well made, point-to-point wiring, no need for hard to find or expensive tubes and, yes a remote! :thumb:
SN
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Output impedance of the Prima Luna is 3kOhm, so the amp's input impedance should be >30kOhm. Bill's Moscode amp has tube inputs so it is OK, but many SS amps are only 10k and some amps, like older Odysseys were only 8kOhm.
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A Modwright, as has been suggested, would of course mate well with your amp. I owned the 9.0SE and the 36.5 (single box) and the former was very good while the latter was excellent.
The 36.5 in particular was very quiet and highly resolving. More so, as both my friend and I remember, than his ARC Ref 3 (in his system with Vandy 5As). It doesn't have a phone stage however, unlike the LS100 which has an optional MC.
A possible drawback if your Modwright amp and pre both have teflon caps is that the sound may be too smooth and slippery. But you possibly substitute some copper foil caps to balance it out.
.
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Output impedance of the Prima Luna is 3kOhm, so the amp's input impedance should be >30kOhm. Bill's Moscode amp has tube inputs so it is OK, but many SS amps are only 10k and some amps, like older Odysseys were only 8kOhm.
Here's what I found on the Moscode 600, Rich
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And the PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium Pre-Amplifier
Specifications
Gain: 12dB
Freq. Response: 4Hz-85kHz +/- 3dB
THD: Less than 1% at full power
S/N Ratio: 109 dB unweighted
Input Sensitivity: 200mV
Input Impedance: 100k Ohms
Output Impedance: 2800 Ohms
Power Consumption: 46 watts
Dimensions: 14.5 " x 8" x 15.5" (WxHxD)
Weight: 37.5 lbs
Inputs: 4 pair RCA / 1 pair HT bypass
Outputs: 2 pair RCA preamp outs / 1 pair RCA fixed tape out
Tube Compliment: 4 - 12AU7, 2 - 5AR4
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As expected with tube input stage, very high impedance... 247kOhms :thumb:
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As expected with tube input stage, very high impedance... 247kOhms :thumb:
That's good, Rich. 'Cause I wouldn't know a kOhm if it jumped up and bit me! :rofl:
SN
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A Modwright, as has been suggested, would of course mate well with your amp. I owned the 9.0SE and the 36.5 (single box) and the former was very good while the latter was excellent.
The 36.5 in particular was very quiet and highly resolving. More so, as both my friend and I remember, than his ARC Ref 3 (in his system with Vandy 5As). It doesn't have a phone stage however, unlike the LS100 which has an optional MC.
A possible drawback if your Modwright amp and pre both have teflon caps is that the sound may be too smooth and slippery. But you possibly substitute some copper foil caps to balance it out.
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Slippery?! I know what smooth sounds like (good) slippery? I'm not so sure what that sounds like. I am definitely not going at it with a soldering iron. (Not that I am not capable with one I just don't want to get into mods at this time.)
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A Modwright, as has been suggested, would of course mate well with your amp. I owned the 9.0SE and the 36.5 (single box) and the former was very good while the latter was excellent.
The 36.5 in particular was very quiet and highly resolving. More so, as both my friend and I remember, than his ARC Ref 3 (in his system with Vandy 5As). It doesn't have a phone stage however, unlike the LS100 which has an optional MC.
A possible drawback if your Modwright amp and pre both have teflon caps is that the sound may be too smooth and slippery. But you possibly substitute some copper foil caps to balance it out.
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Slippery?! I know what smooth sounds like (good) slippery? I'm not so sure what that sounds like. I am definitely not going at it with a soldering iron. (Not that I am not capable with one I just don't want to get into mods at this time.)
Overly smooth, lacking texture. Might not be an issue with the LS100 with it's richer 6SN7s.
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there is a used 9.0 available but I don't think it would be a jump up. i think a 36.5 would be the minimum i would have to go to.
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That's good, Rich. 'Cause I wouldn't know a kOhm if it jumped up and bit me! :rofl:
It might bite you if you don't understand it! Here is a quick lesson.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan03/articles/impedanceworkshop.asp
Input impedance (load) determines how much current the input requires to be driven without distortion. Output impedance (source) determines how much current the amplifier can deliver to a load.
To assure the amplifier has adequate headroom and the signal is transferred with no harm, the rule of thumb is that the input impedance should be 10x higher than the output impedance. The ratio of your preamp to amp is 100x :thumb:
Often, the best sounding tube preamp circuits have high output impedance, and that is fine because they are intended to drive tube amplifiers which have extremely high input impedance.
It is possible to make a tube output stage have a very low source impedance, like a White Follower circuit as used in Manley Shrimp with 50 ohms, same as an opamp. But they don't always sound as good as traditional tube circuits like cathode follower which has higher output impedance.
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[quote author=jimbones
Slippery?! I know what smooth sounds like (good) slippery? I'm not so sure what that sounds like. I am definitely not going at it with a soldering iron. (Not that I am not capable with one I just don't want to get into mods at this time.)
[/quote]
Probably just require changing two coupling caps.
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I have never had this in house but every time i hear it sounds awesome. And everytime i am in the mood to buy one there is never one available.
The copland 305
http://www.copland.dk/cta305/
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Keep an eye on Canuck Audio Mart. More likely to see Copland (and British / European) gear there. I use a Copland hybrid integrated in my bedroom system on a pair of JM Reynaud Twins Signature. It is excellent.
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Dam there is one now on CAM. Ain't got no money.
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I've used the Copland and lusted after the VAC Standard, which should be well within your price limit if you can find one used.
The Copland sounded great, with great phono section. I couldn't afford it at the time.
The VAC is a bit more tubey.
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The preamp is the heart of the system. The AR SP-8 is a classic design. The power supply alone is a tough act to beat.
While a new design may be more transparent or just new it may not better what you have. Have you considered tube rolling first as an option ? Or have the unit tested to see if any caps over the years need replacement. A small expenditure just may be the ticket.
Scott at S&G custom Sound could check it out for you.
charles
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ok so I replaced one of the final active pieces of my system. It has been a 3-4 year system rebuild. I bought a ModWright LS100 with MM/MC Phono. Break in has been trying my patience. when I used it the first day I was crying and wanted to go back to my SP8 Pre. However, i am letting it play 10-12 hrs a day and it has a way to go, but is getting better. It does some things extremely well and the weak areas I believe may be stock tube related. Time will tell.
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ok so I replaced one of the final active pieces of my system. It has been a 3-4 year system rebuild. I bought a ModWright LS100 with MM/MC Phono. Break in has been trying my patience. when I used it the first day I was crying and wanted to go back to my SP8 Pre. However, i am letting it play 10-12 hrs a day and it has a way to go, but is getting better. It does some things extremely well and the weak areas I believe may be stock tube related. Time will tell.
Since you have the amp a good choice. New will take 400 hours to break in 100% meaning the power supply. Be patient. ENJOY !!!
charles
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ok so I replaced one of the final active pieces of my system. It has been a 3-4 year system rebuild. I bought a ModWright LS100 with MM/MC Phono. Break in has been trying my patience. when I used it the first day I was crying and wanted to go back to my SP8 Pre. However, i am letting it play 10-12 hrs a day and it has a way to go, but is getting better. It does some things extremely well and the weak areas I believe may be stock tube related. Time will tell.
Hi Jim
Could it be that you are so used to the ARC SP8 that adjusting to the new sound of the LS100 is going to take a lot more time?
Also what tubes do you have in the LS100? If you need some different 6SN7s or 12AX7 and 12AU7s let me know. I have some newer stuff and budget old stock tubes I'd be willing to lend you to help figure out the harshness. With the 5AR4 tubes from talking to Jim McShane he was very happy with the Tung Sol Re-Issue and the Genelex Gold Lion Re-issues.
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ok so I replaced one of the final active pieces of my system. It has been a 3-4 year system rebuild. I bought a ModWright LS100 with MM/MC Phono. Break in has been trying my patience. when I used it the first day I was crying and wanted to go back to my SP8 Pre. However, i am letting it play 10-12 hrs a day and it has a way to go, but is getting better. It does some things extremely well and the weak areas I believe may be stock tube related. Time will tell.
Hi Jim
Could it be that you are so used to the ARC SP8 that adjusting to the new sound of the LS100 is going to take a lot more time?
Also what tubes do you have in the LS100? If you need some different 6SN7s or 12AX7 and 12AU7s let me know. I have some newer stuff and budget old stock tubes I'd be willing to lend you to help figure out the harshness. With the 5AR4 tubes from talking to Jim McShane he was very happy with the Tung Sol Re-Issue and the Genelex Gold Lion Re-issues.
Dean, Yes I do believe that is partly the answer. For example. the ls100 sounds lean in the bass by comparison. But after living with it a couple of weeks i realize that it is more accurate. The SP8 had a "thickness" that wa a bit too much. The SP8 was also rolled off a bit on the highs but the ls100 is brighter. Now on certain recordings it sounds wonderful, but on some universally regarded recordings (Blue Cafe) it sounds horrible. One thing the ls100 has is dynamics are great. I'll take you up on your offer in a couple more weeks. i'd like the unit to have more break in time. Thanks!
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Not surprised about your trials and tribulations w the Modwright gear. I've had a few Modwright pieces in house and could never warm up to it. Despite all the praise and accolades, to my ear it just doesn't sound very musical. Transparent and detailed and dynamic, yes. But it just did not connect me to the music in that organic and flowing way that I seek in my gear.
I suspect that is what you are experiencing. To me Modwright sounds a bit dry and more like SS than tube, if you know what I mean. If you are seeking a more traditional and warm hued tube sound, I don't think the Modwright will provide it. Maybe tube rolling will shape it more to your liking. I can't say from personal experience, I didn't stick with it long enough to find out. But my gut says no.
You can convince yourself it sounds "more accurate", but if that doesn't equate to greater listening enjoyment, it really doesn't matter....does it?
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You can convince yourself it sounds "more accurate", but if that doesn't equate to greater listening enjoyment, it really doesn't matter....does it?
You can convice yourself about all kinds of things. I have often had discussion at GTGs about liking or not liking a particular piece of gear and being asked why I felt that way. We have one guy in the club who always wanted to dissect the sound and pin you down as to why you felt how you did about the demo. I drove him crazy because for the most part, if I liked something it was simply based on goosebumps. I really couldn't say why, but the piece just "did it for me." Of course if I did no like it it was much easier to pick out why. But not always because there were definitely some times that I could not pick out anything in particular that a system did wrong, but it just did not draw me in.
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Not surprised about your trials and tribulations w the Modwright gear. I've had a few Modwright pieces in house and could never warm up to it. Despite all the praise and accolades, to my ear it just doesn't sound very musical. Transparent and detailed and dynamic, yes. But it just did not connect me to the music in that organic and flowing way that I seek in my gear.
I suspect that is what you are experiencing. To me Modwright sounds a bit dry and more like SS than tube, if you know what I mean. If you are seeking a more traditional and warm hued tube sound, I don't think the Modwright will provide it. Maybe tube rolling will shape it more to your liking. I can't say from personal experience, I didn't stick with it long enough to find out. But my gut says no.
You can convince yourself it sounds "more accurate", but if that doesn't equate to greater listening enjoyment, it really doesn't matter....does it?
Interesting. My KWA 100SE was a hit right off the bat. Not very SS sounding at all. The LS100 has it's moments where it sounds absolutely fantastic then on another piece of material it doesn't even sound like the same equipment. I have to give it time. I thought that because it is tube it would have that warm sound.
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Dan uses his own capacitors. And his "best" are teflon. Both pieces probably have teflon coupling caps and too many of those will cause a lack of warmth and texture.
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Interesting. My KWA 100SE was a hit right off the bat. Not very SS sounding at all. The LS100 has it's moments where it sounds absolutely fantastic then on another piece of material it doesn't even sound like the same equipment. I have to give it time. I thought that because it is tube it would have that warm sound.
Hell, don't listen to me! I've made plenty of mistakes in my gear progressions (regressions?). :duh :lol:
It was years ago, and I don't even remember the pieces. I think one amp and one preamp. Don't recall the models, but they've probably been superceded.
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Getting a new preamp can be like a brand new puppie. You gotta watch it piss and shit all over the floor. Needs to be house trained. It takes patience to get it to do what you want. :rofl: it's not hard to get rid of lean. It's just how it came to you.
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Bass extension is off the charts good. It does enough things well that I think this "puppy can be tamed" :thumb: Was listening to Nirvana Unplugged Acoustic and Cobain's voice was awesome. You can hear all the raspiness and wavering in his voice. Not a super recording but certain things really come through well.
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I would bet that at least some part of your solution resides in tube rolling. Another (may sound funny, but try it) could be to try different footers under the pre (and also under the power supply if it is separate).
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Bob, A tube rollin session is planned next week :thumb:
Anyone who chooses to "volunteer" to let me demo a 6SN7, 12AU7 or 5AR4 you are free to come over next Tuesday/Thursday Evening :D/
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Where may I ask?
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East meadow off Newbridge rd
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Shoot -- sorry in Chi-Town!
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Didn't realize you were so close. I'm in Long Beach. Have we met?
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Bob, A tube rollin session is planned next week :thumb:
Anyone who chooses to "volunteer" to let me demo a 6SN7, 12AU7 or 5AR4 you are free to come over next Tuesday/Thursday Evening :D/
Jim, what 12AU7 tubes do you have now? I might have some that may help.
However, with my Modwright 36.5, even though I went from the stock Sovtek 6H30s to warmer EH gold pins, to the warmest NOS Reflectors, I still felt it lacked texture and adequate warmth. And this was with a tube amp that had Rel PSU copper foil caps.
Maybe the 6SN7s will be different but I still think it's the teflon caps, the teflon caps, the teflon caps.... :lol:
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Ha ha. Ha ha, Ha ha :rofl:
I get it. Ok so everything I read said that the 36.5 is more solid state sounding then the LS100 (from Dan) I am using JJ 12AU7's. I have one NOS Telefunken 12AX7 from the 1950 or 60's I could try but will have a bit more gain in the phono section. I am open to suggestion. Most people have been able to tame it with tube rolling so I am not overly concerned. i just have to find the right match.
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Ha ha. Ha ha, Ha ha :rofl:
I get it. Ok so everything I read said that the 36.5 is more solid state sounding then the LS100 (from Dan) I am using JJ 12AU7's. I have one NOS Telefunken 12AX7 from the 1950 or 60's I could try but will have a bit more gain in the phono section. I am open to suggestion. Most people have been able to tame it with tube rolling so I am not overly concerned. i just have to find the right match.
I'm not a big Tele fan. To my ears they will move you in the direction you don't wanna go.
For 12ax7, try a "Baldwin Organ" pull. They are used old stock, pulled from organs, made by Raytheon (or Sylvania?) I believe, black plates, gold print that says "Baldwin Organ". Smoothest warmest most musical 12ax7 I've encountered. Use 'em in my phono stages. Got mine on EBay several years ago, very reasonable prices by NOS standards. Prices may have caught up to SQ by now.
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Ha ha. Ha ha, Ha ha :rofl:
I get it. Ok so everything I read said that the 36.5 is more solid state sounding then the LS100 (from Dan) I am using JJ 12AU7's. I have one NOS Telefunken 12AX7 from the 1950 or 60's I could try but will have a bit more gain in the phono section. I am open to suggestion. Most people have been able to tame it with tube rolling so I am not overly concerned. i just have to find the right match.
JJs aren't that bad of a tube. I like their 5751 tubes. I had the 12AU7s but they seemed kind of meh compared to old stock tubes and I'm not even talking about the expensive ones.
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IMO, you gotta go NOS (or used old stock) to even have a chance at the kinda warmth and musicality that you seek. Esp since Modwright stuff is voiced accurate / neutral.... At least i hear it that way
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For 12a family of tubes I'd try Mullards, RCA and previously mentioned Baldwins. I love Mullards. Typical Mullard signature is nice punchy bass, creamy lucid mids and good emotional pull. Some say they are rolled up top, but I don't hear it.
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I don't have huge experience with 6sn7,but when I used them I liked the black glass ones, Tung Sol and Kenrad. Clear and dynamic, yet still warm and musical. Dwindling supply and VERY pricey!
A lotta folks swear by RCA red base 5692 for warmth and musicality, but i found them soft , fuzzy and veiled.
Another darling is Sylvania vt231. I hear them as lean, dry and a bit bright. The opposite of textured and musical.
I used them in Atma Sphere OTL mono amps, they may perform differently in a line stage.
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SleepyGuy is coming over with a box full of tunes and we will see/hear the effects. I agree that I will Have to go NOS. No problem.
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Oh, I also used 6sn7 in my ASL aq1006 845 mono amps. Same preferences.
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SleepyGuy is coming over with a box full of tunes and we will see/hear the effects. I agree that I will Have to go NOS. No problem.
Don't write off new production high end tubes from China. Shuguang Black Treasure CV181Z and Psvane are very good. Clean clear sound, with the phat bottom and big sound of vintage western tubes, just without the syrup or blur. Pissvane also has 12A* now too, I've not heard those.
http://en.psvane.com/
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SleepyGuy is coming over with a box full of tunes and we will see/hear the effects. I agree that I will Have to go NOS. No problem.
Don't write off new production high end tubes from China. Shuguang Black Treasure CV181Z and Psvane are very good. Clean clear sound, with the phat bottom and big sound of vintage western tubes, just without the syrup or blur. Pissvane also has 12A* now too, I've not heard those.
http://en.psvane.com/
Rich, Those are EXACTLY what Dan recommended. BUT they are like $300 for a pair :(
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Psvanes nine pins are about $70/pr on ebay, octals are 175ish/pr.
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CBS hytron 5814 for 12au7. Baldwin Organ Pulls for 12ax7. You will get clarity AND toob warmth / glow. Much cheaper than 300 per pair. That's just nuts! :roll:
Also Amperex, RCA and Mullards.
EDIT: but NOT RCA clear top 12au7. They are bright and lean. RCA black plate, red print, better.
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OK so it was time to play last night even though I am not through the burn in process :pop. I only have about 150 hrs with about 250 more to go ](*,) disclaimer:These are preliminary observations and are not considered final.
first thing we did is install some 6SN7's that Sleepyguy (Dean) brought over (RCA?Sylvania?). They took a very very slight edge off. the we installed TMazz GE's from the 1950's and they had a more pronounced affect. I still have a pair of new production Tungsols that Dean left with me to try. Didn't have a rectifier tube to try so I may just take the plunge and get that regardless. As soon as I have more info I'll post.
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At about 200+ hrs. I ruled out the GE and Sylvania. The Tungsols are in right now and sound pretty good but need more time with them. Getting the mullard Friday.
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At about 200+ hrs. I ruled out the GE and Sylvania. The Tungsols are in right now and sound pretty good but need more time with them. Getting the mullard Friday.
Hi Jim
Say what?? The re-issue Tung Sol 6Sn7 GTBs sounding better than old stock 6SN7s? Never thought that would happen. When the Mullard rectifier comes in on Friday will you be putting the Old Stock 6SN7s back in to compare?
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Well, the Sylvania developed 'motorboating' sounds so it was eliminated on that. The TS is very clear and has good top end extension.
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Jim, if you end up liking the Tungsols check out this deal from Cryoset. The are selling new production Tungsol, hand matched, cryoed and burned in for only $55 a pair. They also have a selection of cryoed 12AU7s and rectifiers, so they could outfit your whole preamp.
http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_42&products_id=123&osCsid=f5814be1b1a1a994defa19f9b86cb6fb
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Put the "Used" Old Stock Mullard rectifier tube in yesterday, left the unit on and playing for 24 hrs and it sounds good. Does it sound better? I didn't do an A/B. But I would say that the high end is toned down slightly and the bass is not as well defined. Overall it warmed it up ever so slightly for the better. I am not going to change out the line stage tubes at this point I want to live with this setup and really get to know it.
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To shape the sound, I would definitely focus on line stage tubes. It will give SQ changes that are much more obvious.
While rectifiers matter, it is the last tube I would address, as it's effect is quite subtle....in my experience.
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Oh, I plan to. I happened to find the Mullard at a "reasonable" price and only needed one so i went with it. The tubes I will eventually use in the LS are the Black Treasures. They are pricey so I will do it in time as the pre breaks in. So far I would estimate the unit at 250+ hrs.
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So I had some time to do some listening this weekend and the pre sounds real nice. It is very revealing and if a recording is not top notch you will know it. At over 250 hrs I believe that I still have not realized the full potential of the preamp.
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OK so now have a touch over 400 hrs on the preamp and it is sounding very nice. Teflon caps are a bitch to break in. I would not have believed it had I not experienced it myself. Between the break in and the change to NOS RCA's and Mullard's has the preamp singing. Now on to the next adventure: Power conditioners :)
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Yes Sir Jim those Teflon caps especially V-Cap take up to 1000 hours to fully form.
charles