AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: shep on July 30, 2010, 09:32:22 AM
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Well not exactly but since i've been quiet of late I thought to start off with a bang, even if it's a bit of a wet cracker. Namely; I got tired of the slight channel imballance of my ICE amp. I'm sending it back to CA to J. Sorento to fix this and while it's there, he's going to try out some different caps. He doesn't know what will fit the bill or the case, since the latter is relatively narrow. More will follow.
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I was actually just at the W4S plant a few days ago talking a little shop with EJ and Rick. They have some new stuff coming down the pipe in the not to distant future that will raise the bar yet again when it comes to the world of digital.
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I really enjoy doing business with them. Courtious, responsive and patient with small fry like me! The fact that eJ is willing to humour me and take take the time from an obviously busy schedual to think about and discuss an amp that didn't come from him is a huge plus in my book.
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think about and discuss an amp that didn't come from him is a huge plus in my book.
I won't mention any brand names but I did notice when I was there that EJ and Rick had a fair number of amps kicking around from other manufactures that were sent to them by owners and in some cases, the manufactures themselves.
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IIRC, I saw a W4S amp in pictures of Modwright's lab. :thumb:
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IIRC, I saw a W4S amp in pictures of Modwright's lab. :thumb:
Dan Modwright is a well known Wyred user.
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I can't tell if you're being tongue-in-cheek or.... :duh
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I can't tell if you're being tongue-in-cheek or.... :duh
I'm serious.....Dan has been a fan of Wyred amps for well over a year now.
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The amp is in California by now. He will take it home, listen, and try different caps to see what works best. I was tending towards Aum (spelling?) or Obbligato copper but much depends on the price and the space limitations. I'll report back when this is all done!
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Well we have decided to either go for a complete set of Blackgates or Nichicon Muse or Gold caps and replace key resistors with the latest Vishay Z1-foil. Seing as there are 16 caps to replace, the higher priced ones were out of the picture. The adventure continues.
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Waiting... :?: :!: :nono: :oops:
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What they're doing isn't a 5 minute job. The resistors in question are in tight spots and the whole amp has to be disassembled.
There are 2 electrolytic caps in the signal path(per channel) that I'm thinking about bypassing with Jensen copper foil caps, either copper or paper casing. The caps W4S used are good for electrolytics(Nichicon Muse), but still aren't as good as a high quality film cap. If they weren't such a large value(10uf), I'd just replace them with a good film altogether. Not that I feel as the amp is lacking at all, but there's always something better.
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I know it's not simple. I hope the Blackgates are good. I'm pretty sure the Vishay will make a big contribution. We're on the same page...nice not to be alone in my Ice madness.
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It's finally done and after he takes it home and listens over the weekend, will be shipped out. This is a biggie...I hope in the right direction since it's the last time I'm going to spend any money on this amp; well there's nothing more that can be done within reason.
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I'm listening to his DAC now, shep, I think you'll be pleased with his handiwork. aa
I guess you'll be camping out in the malebox soon?
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It's finally done and after he takes it home and listens over the weekend, will be shipped out.
I hope you have better luck with the shipping this time and are soon happily playing tunes again. (At least this time Memphis is in between the shipper and your house so the package will keep going in the right direction. :roll:)
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Yeah I've gotten tired of the limitations of the little tripath amp. I cleaned out the male box in honor of the occasion.
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Yeah I've gotten tired of the limitations of the little tripath amp. I cleaned out the male box in honor of the occasion.
Hey Shep, welcome to the Kilopost club! :thumb:
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Kilopost club? What's the membership get me??? The amp is finished and about to be returned...NOT MEMPHIS PLEASE LORD!
I have to tip my hat big time to EJ who really went way over standard customer service for me on this. It took a long time and he virtually got only the price of a beer and a steak for doing this. Plus the man is working flat out. Fortunately for him I wouldn't be sending this back since there's nothing left to done that can be. Wyred is a stellar firm and frankly I don't think there's better service and attention to be found elsewhere at this level (excepting all the other little audio companys that also go out of there way for us nut cases)
Full disclosure on the results of this upgrade will take some time. I fear for my sanity if these Blackgates take as long to burn in as their notorious predacesors spelling!. I don't think these are from the same series anyway.
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Good to hear you're having a great experience with Wyred. Looking forward to your thoughts after gettin the unit back and burning it in a bit.
Bryan
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It gets you 5 bars! You are now officially an Audio Neurotic! Congratulations you poor bastard... :rofl:
I got John's Wyred DAC last week, it arrived by postal, double boxed and well packed. But no telling how they ship overseas.
Caps take time to burn in, but the first impression will be in the ball park. I think it's gonna be good. :thumb:
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I knew I was a poor bastard but I didn't think it would get me five bars. ain't I lucky. Hey I was an audio neurotic when most of you were in diapers!
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FINALLY! My amp is back from CA and up and running. This the first time I've had a total refit with Blackgates and I don't have a clue what to expect or even if I'm going to like them. It's what EJ came up with as being the best and both in the budget and fitting the circuit. Also all new Vishay S-foil resistors, about which I have heard absolutely nothing. SO taking a rather big risk. I hope this is not going to be a marathon run-in. I don't think those infamous Blackgates are made anymore anyway but I fully expect 100 hours minimum. Out of the box it's sounding raw in the midrange, which is not unexpected. I'll report back in time. Any one else have any experience with new Vishay's and/or Blackgates?
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Those Vishays are excellent, very transparent.
Do you know which series Blackgate?
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No I don't. Sorry. I could ask but I would feel a bit stupid...I stupidly deleted his mail with the details.
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Vishay S-102 is considered one of the most transparent resistors available, they are very expensive.
http://www.vishaypg.com/docs/63001/63001.pdf
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He can't have used more than a few given the price! At the moment it all sounds a bit strained so obviously this is going to take a while. :duh I actually would have preferred Shinkoh but I let him chose. I doubt if I'm hearing the resistors though; more than likely it's the Blackgates that need a lot of forming.
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Yep, welcome to the world of Blackgate. :rofl:
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The w4s has a very SS sound to my ears, a sort of steely tone, maybe Tantalum or Carbon would have been a good choice for resistor,? give it a nice color. :thumb: Tweaking is about balancing
But to be fair I never used the Vishays so I should not comment, I have heard people who have used them say thay are very transparent. If you need transparency than that is your ticket, but sometimes you need something different than the best or most expensive...just my 2 cents.
Also if you do not need too many resistors buy a few different kinds, they are pretty cheap,(except for the nude Vishays). I bought three different kinds of resistors for my cd player to see what I likebest in my system, if you are handy with a soldering iron, or have a friend who is handy with a soldering iron, then the audio world of tweaks is your oyster!!~! enjoy!!
And yes the blackgates can be a bitch....give them a year is how I look at those sort of things
BTW, I am a tube guy, so understand my biases. I have heard some very bad sounding tube gear, and some very good sounding SS gear.
Mike
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It isn"t a Wyred amp or their design. It does use the ICE module, but it's the 2X75 watt version which is seldom used because everyone else uses the higher power ones. It started life one way and ended with a Vishay resistor stepped pot that i sourced from Australia, after which it got Wyred's buffer stage and now...
Now I have spent far too much money on it and the buck stops here. I have no bias regarding sand vers tubes. I've had both. It never sounded steely in any incarnation. In fact it hands--down beat a neighbor"s prima luna/ Audible Illusions set up on every count. As I said, I would have preferred a sweeter resistor (SHinkoh was my all time favorite) but I didn't have much choice and figured Vishay/Vishay was at least consistant, sound wise. Soldering it not my cup of tea and the amp is a pig to take apart and the circuitry very cramped so I will keep it closed! I will pretend i didn't hear the bit about a year of run-in :( :( I will just run it into the ground with the Isotek disk until it cries uncle. Like I said, this was a risky proposition? I could have left well enough alone, but my nervosa is...what it is.
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Yes I understand the nervosa.. I put BG's in my cd player, I removed cheap computer grade caps.
What I got was a very clean background, tremendous detail, great bass...for now
I lost some roundness and romance, will it come back? who knows I will wait a year, I changed 8 caps, some of them big BG's, that's why i say it is a balancing act, sometime puttingthe best in a circuit that was not voiced for it may not be a good idea.
But give it time, it will improve, you just have to be honest with yourself and see if where you landed was where you wanted to be. Keep the old parts, you may want them back in one day.
Is the W4S a ICE amp?
Mike
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"Is the W4S a ICE amp?" Yes. 250, 500 and 1000 watt versions of same. To my knowledge, none of the big players (Belcanto, Spectrum, etc.) use this lower powered module. Michel Mardis, who slipped this amp to me under the radar, before it disappeared off the earth, thought this module the sweetest from B and O. The old parts are probably in a drawer now in California. I tend to live dangerously on the fringe of the DIY community, relying on better minds than mine and steadier hands. My old Marantz cdp has been and continues to be moddeded extensively according to the principles and following the flow chart of the now famous 15000 page thread on diyaudio.com. it goes back and forth to England about twice a year; I'm furiosly resisting the general move to computer based playback; Just perverse i guess! Having said that, it sounds remarkable and is only about half-way to where others have gone. At the end of the day, assuming there is such a place, it will resemble nothing ever imagined by Marantz and cost a lot more than any reasonable person would spend on a funky old cd player, or for that matter on a new one. I gave up trying to keep track; Once you're on the Nervosa trail, there's no looking back. :thumb:
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Can you post the link to the DIYaudio thread for your Marantz CDP? Thanks, I'd like to check that out.
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Starts here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/54009-marantz-cd63-cd67-mods-list.html
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Thanks shep
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Welcome. A very time-consuming read I fear.
Some 15 hours into it now. The edge has gone off but the bass is lumpy and the sound stage clumpy, but at least there's progress and I can begin to get a feel for what it happening and what will improve...Down the long road.
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Those are good signs. That's just cap voodoo. Put hours on it while you sleep, it will pass fast.
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I could have left well enough alone, but my nervosa is.....
Constant? :rofl:
(You are not alone, I resemble that remark. :lmc: )
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Hey Shep, as Richadoo said about 200 hours and those new caps should sing. Just run it on repeat with the other gear off. enjoy.
charles
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I hope so. I'm not very impressed with the BG sound as of the 20 hour mark. Wasn't it you Charles who talked about breaking in caps with 5 hour on, 5 hour off proceedure?
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I hope so. I'm not very impressed with the BG sound as of the 20 hour mark. Wasn't it you Charles who talked about breaking in caps with 5 hour on, 5 hour off proceedure?
Yes it was moi . For the longest time I would run the item 24/7 for 2 weeks. put wear on the gear and had to use a spare set of tubes just for break in. Oye!
I was reading an engineering forum some time back and the Gurus insisted that the 5 on 5 off was the way to go. Tried it and no going back. Actually the gear, caps, etc. broke in quicker.
Something about the dielectrics settling when not running.
charles
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Thanks. I'm glad I wasn't imagining that. I wonder if 5 hours is a baseline or has some specific sense. I will do it thus.
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Some 50 hours later and things are looking up. It's still not the sound I would wish for but if the tendancy continues into the next 100 hours+, it may well get there. Altogether listenable but not very engaging, is how I would characterize the present sound of BG/Vishy foil. Strangely it's anything but bright; If anything it's on the darker side, a bit too polite in the treble and the bass is dominant but not very articulate. Where I had hope for a deeper, broader sound-stage, thus far it has not changed from the previous incarnation. I guess I would concur that it's just not on the cards with ICE technology; the holographic, sweeping brush- stroke that tubes can provide (and some sand amps). I keep my fingers crossed that the infamous run-in time for BG's will be true for me and that I will get something sweeter and more airy than is now the case. I do hear the transparency that these new Vishay foil resistors are supposed to provide but it's partially masked by the signature of the caps. On a plus side, when fresh out of the box, the amp sounded like congested re-flux emmisions. It now sounds something closer to music.
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That sounds about right for cap break in. You are fortunate that it is not too bright because that usually doesn't go away with break in. The muddy bass is a great sign that they are not yet fully broken in. It was clearer bass before the mods right? It will come back.
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Yeah the bass was clearer before, maybe not as deep or powerful. Definately no bright. It's all a bit stiff and tight-shouldered though, if that makes sense. I'm getting tired of all these endless burn-ins...next it will be the cdp. I sometimes wish I didn't hear it or believe in it like so many...interestingly my rca's from John P. sound a bit better than grover's SX mk2, which is a first. more forgiving. Synergy...
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The horrendously long break in period is why I don't bother with BG anymore. Teflon caps can take almost as long too.
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Vast improvement! Unlike many burn-ins I have experienced which are often one step back and two forward, this has been one of steady progression. At around the 75 hour mark, things are seriously cooking and I have a very different sounding ICE amp. This is one for my books; the sounds is like...dark velvet. Very smooth, tactile, organic. All the edge has gone off. There's more to come! Nice. Very nice. I like dark velvet. Now if I could just have a bit more light in the darkness and greater spacial sense...
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Awesome!! It will come... Be patient. Like you have any other choice? :D
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No choice indeed! Funny..."dark velvet" is not a sound I would have attributed to either the componants or ICE modules in general. I guess yet again i have to trot out that old synergy word to account for this. There's still a bit of confusion in the sound-stage. The layering is somewhat veiled and the bass is not as articulate as I want but given that 150 hours is pretty much a minimum for caps burn-in (I'm doing it the hard way; (5-8 hours on, then turning it off for the same time) I'm hopefull all my doubts will be dismissed. At some point I will put Grover's cables back in and see what that does. Next up is yet another level of upgrading to the cdp. I hope this all comes together before my hearing goes, along with my mind!
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I hope this all comes together before my hearing goes, along with my mind!
......or you wallet. :duh
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So here I am at around 250 hours. My hopes have materialized. After a bit of side-stepping, the amp is really singing sweetly. Very rich harmonically and not a trace of hardness. I like these damn BG's! If there's more to come I will be a very happy puppy. I just put in an order for Silkworm Rca's to up the ante. Who's the most :thumb: nervoseac here???
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If you have a balanced preamp, the balanced input of your W4S amp is the way to go.
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Great shep! You took a chance and it paid off.
No doubt you are still the nervosa champ. :thumb:
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Nope. This is an integrated. Not their's. But a lot of their handiwork inside. :)
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So to recap; my findings are that Blackgates need at least 300 hours to sound there best and I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't represent a plateau and they in fact need more time. I also concur that they don't especially like being powered down. It takes a good hour from a cold start for them to sound right. Hmm. So there. Is it worth it? If you are using tubes i would say no because you are surely shortening tube life. If you are using class A or an amp that uses a lot of current even at idle, I would say probably not. But for class T D or ICE, that use little current and prefer to be under power at all times, absolutely.
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Nice to see a happy camper. Shep try turning the amp off when the music is still playing to drain the caps. breaks them in a bit faster. The ol charge recharge the cap trick. One more thingie, demagnetize your system. It will open up quite a bit, the Ayre or Sheffield discs will do the trick. If you can get your hands on a Gryphon Demag. I believe you will be quite surprised as to difference. ENJOY!!!
charles
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Thanks for the tip about draining while playing. I do have the Isoteck demag disc. I imagine they are all pretty much the same?
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Thanks for the tip about draining while playing. I do have the Isoteck demag disc. I imagine they are all pretty much the same?
Isotek disc will work fine. Give it a go.
charles
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Thanks for the tip about draining while playing. I do have the Isoteck demag disc. I imagine they are all pretty much the same?
Shep, you have been awfully quiet for a while now. I guess you are just too busy enjoying those newly modded amps! :thumb:
I have tried several different demag discs (including the Cardas sweep LP) and I have to say that while I do strongly recommend doing regular system demags, I can't say that I particularly prefer one disc over the other.
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Not much to say really. I am waiting for some Silkworms from KCI and then to send my cdp to UK for another upgrade, probably the last. (and dreaming about other speakers of course).
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Not much to say really. I am waiting for some Silkworms from KCI and then to send my cdp to UK for another upgrade, probably the last. (and dreaming about other speakers of course).
The Nervosa never ends.
charles
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I would be devastated if it did :duh :duh but I secretly hope it will, eventually.
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Blackgates certainly take their sweet time. Now at about 450hours they are changing yet again, but very slowly. I learned my lesson; don't turn the amp off. It takes a day or more to sound right again.
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It's all too true, what they say about BG break-in. Past 600 hours. I thought they had leveled off but actually they are still improving. Nothing dramatic but a gradual coherency...sort of rounding off and with improved layering and texture. It's not a bumpy ride; just a long one.
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Me too. The trannies are taking their sweet time. Now 500 hours and its still a changing. Feel like Bob Dylan.
Those Blackgates some say never break in. :roll: My experience was similiar to the Teflon V-caps. 1200 hours. Some cheese some wine. Some more cheese some more wine and soon it will be there. Your dating now.
charles
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I don't think these are the same BG's as those infamous ones that never did break in. That was a long time ago and those came from Japan. There hasn't been any dramatic ups and downs; pretty steady after the first big hump. I'm afraid to turn off the amp and have to start all over again though :duh
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I don't think these are the same BG's as those infamous ones that never did break in. That was a long time ago and those came from Japan. There hasn't been any dramatic ups and downs; pretty steady after the first big hump. I'm afraid to turn off the amp and have to start all over again though :duh
Ah, did not know that about the caps, thanks. I stand corrected.
charles
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One thing is for sure...Blackgates dont like to be turned off when they've formed. They take about 2 hours to come on song from a cold start. On the other hand I can confirm that 500hours is about right for them to be settled down. It wasn't so painful as some have reported, but again this is a newer generation.
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To my astonishment, the Blackgates suddenly went thru another change at about 700 hours, they loosened up even more and the whole "picture" became deeper and more coherant; with better texture and transparency. This is one hell of an upgrade but not for the faint-hearted. Patience and faith! I also did something I should have ages ago. I was using a standard store-bought multi-adapter, because the power cables were'nt long enough to reach the wall plug. I have long suspected it was a bottle neck. I had a very nice, thick cable I got in Switzerland years ago from an audiophile friend who swore by it. Not expecting too much, I stripped it clean and having opened up the adapter and cleaned it, soldered in the "new" cable. After a week of burning in, this has proved a serious improvement. (I did this before the Blackgates did their strange magic act). Moral of the story is; take nothing for granted and leave no stone unturned.
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guess who has to go to CAlifornia? My f...ing amp. Replaced the fuse today with the new one put everything back together and BLAM! full vol. on the first click (resistor-type ladder one) didn't do any damage. Took it apart...5 times, looked at everything especially the pot, put back the old fuse. it worked once then BLAM again, full vol at first click; Obviously the pot is shorting. Can't see it, nada. Going back to Wyred tomorrow.
What with the laptop, this is my gremlin week. I am saying the S word many times and at full vol.
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Sorry to hear that. I think you need a hobby so you stay out of trouble.
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I thought I had one...to stay out of trouble...
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Bummer.
If it's a simple discreet resistor volume control you can clean it with electronics cleaner. Don't use caig gold on it until after you get it working again. Maybe turning it upside down for the fuse caused a metal fragment to fall on to the PCB or into the volume control.
I use the Radio Shack cleaner, but you can get something fancy with ACHTUNG printed on the side. ;) Turn the volume knob aggressively while spraying into the contacts to rinse away the contaminants on the contacts. The cleaner will evaporate with no residue.
Did you try smacking it? It works 25% of the time.
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No but I sure smacked myself for changing the fuse! nuff said. It goes to CA for punishment. While there, there are perhaps a few more upgrades possible. What the hell...In for a penny...EJ is a good guy, he'll sort me out. Actually I considered kicking it across the room but considering it's one of a kind and has already cost serious bucks, I restrained myself.
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Did you try smacking it? It works 25% of the time.
Also excellant dating advice! :lol:
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You are spoiling that amp. Feeding it the finest silver fuses and cables, and not spanking it when it mis-behaves. It will learn to bite you when it doesn't get its way. Put it out in the snow for a few hours... Scared straight.
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Too late, it's going to Southern CAl. :roll:
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Maybe it is just pining for a vacation somewhere warm.
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I'm going to slap it around when it gets back :nono: JM has already written back and prepared the operating table.
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I'm going to slap it around when it gets back :nono:
Uh-oh, then you'll break it again!
JM has already written back and prepared the operating table.
Good. No anesthetic.
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Amp is in-house after another little jaunt to California. The whole point was just to change a damn fuse! It was entirely coinicidental that a resistor raised a leg on the pot and created havoc. Anyway all is well and while it was there, I have Wyred put in a snazzy little red LED (that can be dimmed or brightened from a trimmer inside...Where I have no intention of going since it is just fine. Anyway back to basics. It is my impression the fuse actually brought some finesse to the whole show, but I will not know that for sure until my bloody CDP comes back from UK. While there I had him add some more mods (at his discretion). I'm going to take a break from all this modding and neurosis and concentrate on the esthetics of the MArantz. On the menu are nice Elm cheeks and some other wood top and bottom. A case into which the player will slide and reside. The clearance will be tight so it doesn't appear that it isn't attached. I will get a friend to cut and mill and shape the cheeks and the top and maybe put a grill just so you can vaguely see the (rather messy) guts. When I get the power cable from John P., I'm hoping all will fall into place and I can take a serious sabatical from the fuss and expense. That's not counting with my Nervosa of course, but I can try at least.
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Glad to hear it was something minor, shep. And that it is well protected from faults.
The CDP sleeve sounds like a good idea. I hope you will post pictures when it is done.
Rich
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Bix is still alive? That would make him well in his 100's! I'll try and post when and if it looks like what I have in mind; sort of a Marantz version of those lovely hi-end Sony's of the 80's. I can't change the horrid front platic face plate though. All the logic chips and bits are attatched to it. More's the pity.
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Shep, how hot does the Marantz run. They may have been using the entire metal cover as a heat sink. A wood case could dam up all the heat inside. Even a small amount of heat will build up over time if it is boxed n with no place to go. Not that this should stop you , just keep an eye on how hot is gets once it is encased to make sure it doesn't become a problem (if it does start getting hot perhaps you could cut some vent holes in the top wood piece.)
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I have removed the metal cover ages ago so it has been basically open, except for a plywood cover. It doesn't get hot at all and just as a precaution, I will probably make a grill on top and maybe a hole in the bottom as well.
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I have removed the metal cover ages ago so it has been basically open, except for a plywood cover. It doesn't get hot at all and just as a precaution, I will probably make a grill on top and maybe a hole in the bottom as well.
If you already have a wood cover then it shouldn't be an issue. But some vent hole wouldn't be a bad idea just for safety's sake. You can never have too must ventilation for a solid state device.