AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: Bigfish8 on March 07, 2010, 03:05:18 PM
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Guys:
Shane brought my Usher Dancer Mini II Speakers back home this afternoon along with the new Diamond Tweeters to evaluate versus the Beryllium Tweeters that were originally supplied with the speakers. He also brought along the new Moscode 402AU Hybrid Amp to compare to the Odyssey Mono SEs. We started out playing a few songs with the Odyssey's and then switched over to the Moscode. For me it was one of those AW S--- Moments! The Moscode presented the music in a very smooth, detailed manner with a level of refinement lacking with the Odyssey's. I also felt the bass was tighter and definitely more pronounced with the Moscode. The reason I called my initial exposure to the Moscode as an AW S--- Moment is because I immediately knew a superior amp was playing my speakers and now I will be on a quest for a new amp.
Shane is considering picking up the local dealership rights for Moscode. While I want to experience other amps in my system I am confident this one will be on my short list of possible canidates. Oh, another postitive note is that I learned that a single amp will fit in my system and that the SCs are long enough to connect without any issues! Yeh!
I want to thank Shane for bringing over the Moscode 402AU and I can certainly say I hated to see him leave with it.
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That's Great News!
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My condolences, Ken :rofl:
So a new quest begins. There's a lot out there to choose from. Moscode is definitely a player, has been for many years. There is a Wes Phillips review of that moscode in Stereophile from last summer. I have met and talked to George Kaye at RMAF a couple times. I would have no problem buying their product. He is a jazz bass player. ;) I heard it there once in combination with Placette active preamp, awesome! Plus you get to stick some mushy syrup goo WW2 tubes in there, or shiny clean chinese tubes, so you will love having 4 more tube sockets to play with.
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Nice! what's next to enter your home? From your previous comments, i had a feeling you would like a tube amp or a hybrid tube amp in your system. Keep us posted on the auditions.
Rob S.
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These tubes are made for walking and one of these days those tubes Are gonna walk all over you. Nice amp Ken, hope it works out.
charles
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Ken, am I mistaken or didn't you say you recently that you were done for awhile? :rofl:
Oh wait, maybe that was me :duh
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Ken, am I mistaken or didn't you say you recently that you were done for awhile? :rofl:
Oh wait, maybe that was me :duh
Hi Mike:
The mistake I made was in going over to the G2G at Shane's last weekend! :duh This is a tough hobby and I think it is tough because I have not really wanted to admit to myself that it is a hobby. My approach has been to try and produce the relaxing sound I want to hear and just be happy. The problem is when I hear something new (new to me) and I say to myself I really like that sound. That always turns out to be one of those Aw S--- Moments that ends up with me spending money. Thus far, this year (still young) I have not spent any non music audio money. Maybe it wil be the Moscode, A Salmet AMP, A Butler or maybe a used tube amp but I suspect a different amp(s) is in my 2010 future. I will be interested to hear the Moscode and the I-60 at Rich's on Saturday if I can make it.
Ken
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Ken I did not want to suggest another tubed amp since you were dealing with one of our favorite vendors Shane. Now that you mentioned alternatives PLEASE audition a CJ or Manley amp.
charles
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I wanted to post a thank you to Shane (hometheaterdoc) for allowing me to demo a Moscode 402AU and a Butler 2250 in my system for a week. Since I am a self proclaimed tube guy I had a definite preference for the sound of the Moscode but I would also say that I could easily live with the Butler. The short time I was able to listen to the Moscode ( a Sunday afternoon and the following Saturday) convinced me to try and sell my Odyssey Mono SEs to explore an amp with tubes in my system. My music preference is to the warm side of neutral and the Moscode with the RCA tubes Shane had installed delivered in spades. The other thing that I heard and surprising my wife commented on was the note separation, the fullness of sound from singers and the gradual decay of cymbals. Yes, darn-it, the Moscode will make me break my New Year's Resolution to not purchase any audio equipment this year. However, it has confirmed my love for tubes and I will be able to further explore the world of tube amps!
Thanks again Shane, I think! :duh
Ken
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Hooray, Ken! and Congrats! :) You're on a good path.
This hobby is about learning and satisfying emotions. You are doing it and that's the fun part. The money part sucks but what hobby that provides so much enjoyment is cheap or easy?
Your system must be so much different now than it was a year ago. If you're enjoying the music more and listening to the gear less, you know you're doing things right.
Keep having fun!
-Carl
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I guess my post could be interperted that I pulled the trigger on the Moscode. Nope, not yet! My experience with it has helped clarify what type of sound I want from my system. It might end-up being the Moscode, possibly a tube amp and I am interested in hearing a Class A SS Amp.
The Nervosa bug has bitten again! :duh
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Ken
At least you made it to March, before breaking your New Year resolution! Quite an accomplishment indeed in this hobby. I , too, only made it to March upgrading my tube amp. Sure helps to have an understanding bunch cheering you on.
Henry
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I guess my post could be interperted that I pulled the trigger on the Moscode. Nope, not yet! My experience with it has helped clarify what type of sound I want from my system. It might end-up being the Moscode, possibly a tube amp and I am interested in hearing a Class A SS Amp.
The Nervosa bug has bitten again! :duh
You've bought it in your mind, so that's all that matters.. just a matter of time now. ;)
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You've bought it in your mind, so that's all that matters.. just a matter of time
Yes, I really like the sound of the amp with the Usher Dancer Mini II Speakers and I had honestly bought the amp mentally on Sunday. However, time has passed by and before I acutually pull the trigger I want to hear tube amps in my system. Shane has an option expected next week and Steve/Rich are agreeable to allow me to listen to the AR Tube Amp. I have made the comment to several of you guys that my system with the Odyssey's sounds fine and only audiophools with this crazy nervosa would be interested in something different. The nice thing is with having you local audio friends I am having to opportunity to experiment with some different types of amps without a huge commitment or having to deal with shipping hassles.
Henry, what mods have you made to your amp?
Ken
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You've bought it in your mind, so that's all that matters.. just a matter of time
Yes, I really like the sound of the amp with the Usher Dancer Mini II Speakers and I had honestly bought the amp mentally on Sunday. However, time has passed by and before I acutually pull the trigger I want to hear tube amps in my system. Shane has an option expected next week and Steve/Rich are agreeable to allow me to listen to the AR Tube Amp. I have made the comment to several of you guys that my system with the Odyssey's sounds fine and only audiophools with this crazy nervosa would be interested in something different. The nice thing is with having you local audio friends I am having to opportunity to experiment with some different types of amps without a huge commitment or having to deal with shipping hassles.
Henry, what mods have you made to your amp?
Ken
Ken,
I am the last person in the world I would have expected to end up with an all tube setup (Atma-Sphere preamp and M60 mono's), mainly as I am extremely adamant about reliability, but I couldn't be happier with how it's worked out. My setup simply appeals to the soul and music is oh so enjoyable now. Take your time, do what makes you happy, and good luck in the hunt. Keep it fun.
Tom
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So you DID get the preamp Tom! Congrats. I'm lookin that way now too. S30 is all I need for now. Thanks!
Rich
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So you DID get the preamp Tom! Congrats. I'm lookin that way now too. S30 is all I need for now. Thanks!
Rich
Yeah, I snagged an older Atma-Sphere MLS-1, which is a version of the MP-1 in a single chassis, without the integrated phono stage. I am really liking it a lot except no remote for the lazy. Truly amazed at the difference from the BP26, which I actually thought was quite good, though not as good as my DIY Pumpkin balanced pre. It's just a line stage, right? Jeez, serious nervosa...
You should definitely talk to George about his idle M60's ;) BTW, Ralph is also awesome to work with if there is need. Based on what I've read of Ken's quest here, I'm not sure the A-S is appropriate so don't want to derail. Sounds like the 402 or AR gear is right up his alley :thumb:
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You've bought it in your mind, so that's all that matters.. just a matter of time
Yes, I really like the sound of the amp with the Usher Dancer Mini II Speakers and I had honestly bought the amp mentally on Sunday. However, time has passed by and before I actually pull the trigger I want to hear tube amps in my system. Shane has an option expected next week and Steve/Rich are agreeable to allow me to listen to the AR Tube Amp. I have made the comment to several of you guys that my system with the Odyssey's sounds fine and only audiophools with this crazy nervosa would be interested in something different. The nice thing is with having you local audio friends I am having to opportunity to experiment with some different types of amps without a huge commitment or having to deal with shipping hassles.
Henry, what mods have you made to your amp?
Ken
Ken,
Sorry I just saw your question as to mods I made. I sent my RM-9 Mkll tubed amp for the following:
Upgrade to IEC connector on AC input. The original power cord was non detachable.
Power supply filtering and reservoir upgrades, high speed rectification, Signal path Teflon V caps upgrades, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses and EAR damping feet.
I have had the amp back now for 3 weeks.The bottom end was impressive right out the gate after the mods. Two weeks later the highs and mids getting even better. I was not prepared for the increased weigh and bottom end control when I played the first CD. As I told Shane, it was a jaw dropping experience for me with this very good amp to begin with. The new parts should take about 300 hours to break-in but the bottom end is impressive already. I am very pleased with the mods.
Henry
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Can't wait to hear them again Henry. Hard to imagine they got even better. Even in previous form bass was better than my Snappers.
Congrats Tom. Somebody else we know and love already got George's M60s... but I'm not done with the 300Bs yet, but I think S30 or M60 will be next in line.
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Can't wait to hear them again Henry. Hard to imagine they got even better. Even in previous form bass was better than my Snappers.
Congrats Tom. Somebody else we know and love already got George's M60s... but I'm not done with the 300Bs yet, but I think S30 or M60 will be next in line.
Rich
I am looking forward to having you over for another listening session, this time with the amp mods. The bass response was pretty good before. Its even better now. I am still working on the room acoustics, since my room has two wall openings and a fireplace behind the speakers. I want to give the amp another two weeks are so to break-in more, and get the room acoustic done, hopefully.
I still miss your Ushers BE-20, as reference speakers. Still cannot believe you sold those big beautiful, great sounding speakers. Yes, I am still wishing I had heard them one last time before they got shipped off.
Henry
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Good riddance! haha, no just kidding. Some things I miss about them, like scale, speed, openness, and dealer support. But a fair number of other things I don't miss. Playing them with the RM9 was one of their high water moments.
I am looking forward to seeing your new crib and hearing the new system - new amp, new room, that's 60% change! When's the inaugural G2G?? :D
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Good riddance! haha, no just kidding. Some things I miss about them, like scale, speed, openness, and dealer support. But a fair number of other things I don't miss. Playing them with the RM9 was one of their high water moments.
I am looking forward to seeing your new crib and hearing the new system - new amp, new room, that's 60% change! When's the inaugural G2G?? :D
Looking at about two weeks to get the acoustics stuff done and a little more break-in on the new amp Teflon Caps and other upgrades.
Henry
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Ken
Is it the Moscode amp for sure or have you listened to others and still evaluating the field of good tube amps?
Henry
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Henry:
I has set a ceiling of what I am willing to spend for an amplifier but other than that the field is wide open. Shane plans to bring over the BAT MK60 and that will be the second tube amp I will have heard in the system. The Moscode really made me happy and I have yet to hear anything in my system that sounds better to me. Yes, I would have to say it remains on my short list of contenders.
Ken
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After dealing with a dog that could not walk when I got home last night and a couple of beers to calm my nerves I was really doing a great job of posting. " I has" - Wow!
My wife asked me the other day if I had made my mind up as to what amp I would be getting to replace the Odysseys? I told her I had not and she immediately said, "well, you are not going to buy something you haven't heard like you did last time (with the Odysseys)." My response was that I would definitely not do that again because I feel I have learned so much in the past 3 years.
Rollo sent me a message and told me to "Man up" but I don't want to be beating myself up after I make the decision. Therefore, I will take my time and ensure the new amp will be a good match for my system, plays music in the manner I prefer to hear it, and fits within my budget.
I keep having to remind myself this is suppose to be fun! Yea, right!
Ken
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I think Vera is sending subtle messages that she likes the Moscode...
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I think Vera is sending subtle messages that she likes the Moscode...
Yes, she liked the way it sounded but she really does not care what I buy, within the budget. Her deal is she does not want me to tell her 6 months after I buy it that I want something different. She has no appreciation for this audio hobby except she knows it is very expensive.
Ken
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If you are open to Class D, I have had great experience with the Digital Amp Company's products.
Forgive me if you already know the following:
First of all I (and the NY Ravers) have become friends w/ Tommy, the owner/designer of the company so that's my disclosure-
They are not ICE or UcD but Tommy's own proprietry design. I feel that they sound much better than the ICE/UcD units I've heard.
Some other words of praise on AC have come from Bill Baker of Response Audio/Bella, Big Red Machine who felt they were much better than the Wyred amps, and Jeff Dorgay has one for review and he hints that he's gonna like it, etc.
Tommy's a great guy, I'm sure he'd love to get a call from you.
Again, he's a buddy but I wanted to let you know about these amps which have been enjoyed by 30+ ravers on several occasions, because I sincerely feel that they can do great things in the right system.
-Mike
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Ken....
Therefore, I will take my time and ensure the new amp will be a good match for my system, plays music in the manner I prefer to hear it, and fits within my budget.
Good move Ken....take your time. :beer:
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Mike I've been following the DAC story for a year or more. Thanks to your sharing your experiences I will definitely try one next time I need a powerful amp. I agree it would be worth a listen for Ken too. It's not like other class Ds. Although it's still an analog output filter, but no feedback around it. Even though he is new to AC, Tommy is an accomplished audio engineer. Ken likes a little warmth, or a lot of warmth, does any of that come from that DAC amp, or is it up to Ken's tube preamp to provide that? Most D amps have little warmth.
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Is Tommy's concept the same as what TacT does with their amps? Like the 2150? If so, that IS a good concept, I thought there was a lot of potential with that design. But I haven't heard anyone else using it.
We can start a 'Tommy's amp' thread if this is veering too OT..
-C
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Mike:
Thank you for the information about the Cherry Amps and Rich is correct, I definitely want my music on the warm side of neutral. Neutral to me sounds good for a short period of time and then I just want to shut it off. I have heard the Channel Islands, Wyred for Sound and Spectron Class D Amps. While others love them they did not crank my audio engine.
The Odyssey Monos were powerful amps and I enjoyed my time with them. The reason I sold them is that I heard amps, in my system, that were less grainy, had better note separation and better note decay. Once I heard it I wanted it and set on this finding a new amp quest. I ideally would like to buy something that I will want to keep for at least 3 years and therefore I have not rushed to make a decision. It is hard for me to believe but I have been actively evaluating options for 6 weeks already.
Shane plans to bring over the BAT tube amp this weekend and I believe the results of that session will bring me much closer to knowing what I will chose.
Ken
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Guys, thanks for accepting my comments as I intended - There's a fine line between unwelcome shill and genuine enthusiasm and it's hard to walk it sometimes :thumb:
Nope, the DAC amps will not add warmth, but OTOH it does not have the slight silvery glaze that I heard with the Rotel ICE amp I borrowed once (The Rotel was still a fine piece for the $$). I wouldn't call it lean but it certainly isn't lush, by itself.
We heard the Cherry with a SS pre and VMPS towers and it was too bright for my tastes - The VMPSs sounded better w/ a Quicksilver tube amp in place.
The DAC amps somehow have incredible imaging, which is important to me. And good cymbal tone which I am sensitive to being a hack amateur drummer.
Just for some reference - I use a tube pre with my Cherry JR and my room is very well damped.
-Mike
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The Spectron we auditioned last year courtesy Shane sounded pretty piercing on my Ushers. I loved the ultra clear sound on chamber music / strings, but I can ignore treble problems easier than others. Everyone else's brains started melting. I think it was as much the Usher titanium mid and tweeter ringing as it was the mercilessly revealling amp, but Ken has same Ti tweeter until he can get the diamond version, so that explains the NC bias against ultra-clean class D amps. I loved the clarity and power, so I would look in that direction again if I needed 200W+, like those Maggies bpape is trying to talk me into :D. Spectron output filter is within digital feedback loop, which Tommy says is a potential problem. Spectron is quite proud of the implementation of output filter. To each his own... There are new CIA amps now too, and big one sounded very good back in 08, on VMPS speaker. I think wolfy said it sounded OK at 09 RMAF too. I never heard the old ones, but I know they were not favs among NY or NC gangs, still UcD of course, but I like that tech.
(End of annual class D rant)
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Spectron was ear bleeding on Harbeths as well... which aren't exactly ultra neutral speakers overall... not my cup of tea at all.
The only class D I've heard for full range that I could live with and listen to for more than a few minutes were Tripath implementations... and while not ultra resolving neutral, they're not exactly what I'd call warm sounding either. I tried to love the Nuforce stuff. It's ability to deal with complex music was awesome. But it just didn't have it for longer term listening. Again, midrange and top end were just not refined enough for me. ICE is good for subwoofers, nothing more, imho. I've heard a bunch of different ICE implementations and hated every single one of them for full range sound. For subs, they're awesome. For midrange and treble, no thank you. But my ears are different than a lot of folks. I like things on the warm side of neutral. I have an extreme hyper sensitivity in the 2K-8K range and, although it's dropped off a bit as I've gotten older, still have pretty good hearing way up high.... which means things that sound great to others are like nails on a chalkboard to me. Truth be told, the kind of sound that suits me for longer listening sessions is likely too relaxed for others in the local group.
I can live with slightly rounded bottom end and not quite as grippy, delineated bass. I don't like it, but I can live with it. I can't live with something that is hot or forward in the midrange. I think I'm the anti-Richard Schwery :)
The BAT amp here is absolutely glorious with the PSB Synchrony One. The PSB needs a bit more power for rock out volumes because of it's multiple 4th order crossovers that suck a bit of power. But 8 1940's vintage 6SN7 octals and some 6C33C-B tubes make some beautiful music on the PSBs if you use sane volume levels. I'm curious to hear it on the rosewood veneer Harbeth Monitor 40.1s that are showing up here Monday. It just might be syrupy heaven for me depending on what vintage of 6SN7s I roll in there...
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I don't know why I bother, since it's just hot air, but I have to take a stand for my ice amp! It's far and away the best amp I've ever owned. Maybe I just got lucky or someone sprinkled fairy dust on it? I know one thing; it impresses the hell out of my neighbor, who has a very nice tube combo...and is better in a number of ways. I too am sensitive to nasties. I live in dread of hearing them. No offence but you guys spend a fortune on tubes and endless threads about which and where. I just turn up the vol. and have glorious music. Like I said, it's just hot air. Until and if I brought it to a rave, nobody has to believe me. :thumb:
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shep....
I don't know why I bother, since it's just hot air, but I have to take a stand for my ice amp!
Everyone hears different things...
If your happy....then that's all that matters.... :thumb:
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I might be just delusional, which goes with the territory :shock:
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Shep,
It's the joy of this hobby... It's completely subjective and as Wolfy says, everyone hears different things. Tubes are far from perfect as well. For me and only me, I've formed some stubborn, curmudgeon-y like opinions about things based on my ears and my listening experiences. If you are happy with the amp, it doesn't matter one iota what I or anyone else thinks. If your ears think it's good, it's good.
I and two others literally had to go outside Rich's house when he was playing the Spectron/Usher combo loudly for a while that one get together. Not just leave the listening room or get out of the sweet spot. We literally had to leave the house. Meanwhile some folks were sitting in the sweet spot soaking it up and didn't think there was an issue. Chacun son gout....
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And even if everyone did hear the exact same thing, we still process it though our internal wants/desires.
We all see the same appearances in women, but do expect everyone to think the same way about Olivia Munn as I do? :drool:
-Mike
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There's a good French word, "Grincheux" , which is not a character trait I care to reveal...but...I know zilch about Spectron, other than what I've read here and there. The guys over at Wyred have ears that hear like mine, that I do know. I would be very upset if someone had to leave the house when I was playing loud. Hasn't happened yet. Ok so I have fairy dust liberally sprinkled on my amp. How the hell are we supposed to have any kind of concensus if we can't agree on a simple thing like this? I wish I had the money to take a damn plane and show you!!! well "hear" you. Problem: you got the wrong voltage. I ain't got the money and maybe it's better thos way :thumb: I appreciate the molifying but I will stick to my guns, and to my amp.
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Shep,
I had this amp:
http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/site/74030/117839/shopping/shopping-view.html?pid=332920&b_id=&find_groupid=18048
in my system a few weeks ago. A local customer owns it. I know you have a custom one off Wyred piece that likely has differences to their standard pieces. But the above amp was a jaw clenching, teeth grinding, nails on a chalkboard experience in my system driving Usher and PSB speakers. I even put in the Belles 22A tube preamp into the setup and inserted the most lush sounding tubes I had in it and it still did no good. I could hear the amp above all else. The only speakers I had here that I didn't try it on was the Harbeth Monitor 40.1s. That might have been a better match up. The guy that bought my cherry Monitor 40.1s is using an ICE amp on them and absolutely loves it. Different strokes for different folks. I'll give it a whirl on the rosewood veneer Monitor 40.1s soon. My customer is going to bring his amp back for another listen when the Usher Mini1s and Mini2s finally come back into stock before pulling the trigger on a purchase... I'll try his amp on the Harbeths while he's here.
Again, it's all just my opinion. I'm sure there would have been quite a few folks that liked the sound of the amp. It was way too thin, forward, bright, and aggressive for me. Everyone else's mileage may vary.
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I didn't intend to monopolise this topic or come across as defensive. I think I just got lucky. That or when ICE is used as per their integrated, which isn't that different from mine, excepting a dif. pot., there's no trace of what you describe. I do have to point out that they take a goodly while to burn in and seem very ic dependant. Anyway this WAS a Moscode thread and I guess I react like someone said my shiney new convertable was a peice of sht. Grincheux, like I said.
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Guys:
I just wanted to provide an update to my amp quest. Shane brought over a BAT VK-60, Moscode 402AU, Butler 2250, PS Audio Prefect Wave DAC, bunches of tubes and cables. It is really nice to have a local audio friend who also happens to be a dealer.
While Shane was here we tried connecting the BAT into my system using some XLR single ended adapters. Shane told me the adapters caused an audible audio hum in his system but they were the only balanced to single-ended adapters he had available. Wow, the hum was so audible in my system it was impossible to evaluate the amp. Shane decided to use the Transporter as a transport (by-passed the tube output stage) and connected it to the Perfect Wave DAC and then balanced to the BAT. All cables in the system were JPS SC-3, except the PCs which were Black Sands Silver MKV's.
Let first say that what we were listening to with the BAT Amp was no longer my system but it was the only way to get a flavor for the amp without the ungodly hum from the adapters. With the combination described above the speakers disappeared with a huge soundstage. Female voices were so real sounding my neighbor (who came over for a short period) commented that they probably would not sound that good at a live performance. The mid-range with the BAT just truly absorbs you with the music. My cursor is jumping so I will continue with another post.
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Sorry Guys but to continue from the previous post. As I learn more about audio I am beginning to think completing a system is about maximizing the musical traits you want most and having to accept some trade-offs. I have been used to the Odyssey Monos in my system and they definitely had a good grip on the bass. After Shane left I played some tunes from my favorite group, The Dave Mathews Band, and I realized I was missing an important quality to this type of music. The low bass, the feel of the bass drum when the drummer taps it, just was not there.
I installed the Moscode 402AU into the system, with whatever tubes Shane has in it, using all of my components (ModWright Transporter, Mapletree Pre and JPS SC-3 cables). The midrange had lost some of it bloom but the speakers were definitely more balanced. Bass was back in spades. The note separation and decay I heard on my initial audition were all there.
Well, I will do some more experiments today and take full advantage of the opportunity Shane has provided.
Ken
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Cool! and thanks for sharing, Ken. :)
BTW, to get rid of the bouncing cursor problem, click on a button that looks like a broken piece of paper next to the URL.
-C
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I would like to thank Shane for bringing so much gear over to my house and spending a couple of hours over here on Saturday and again today. I had a lot of fun and I believe I learned quite a lot.
Today we again used the ModWright Transporter as a transport into the PS Perfect Wave DAC and then balanced (SC-3's) into the BAT VK60. Yesterday, after Shane left I played some Dave Mathews and was disappointed in the bass. Today, Shane rolled in some different 6SN7 tubes and there was bass in spades. We did not have adapters to allow me to run the ModWright Transporter into the Mapletree and then into the BAT.
The next experiment was to run with the Transporter to Mapletree into the Moscode 402AU. Most of the romantic midrange of the BAT was gone but it was replaced with punch, speed and detail. We rolled my 6H30DRs along with Shane's Mullard 6922's and much of the magic of the BAT/Perfect Wave system was back. Shane and my neighbor preferred the BAT System. I honestly thought the BAT/Perfect Wave was slightly better but it would mean a complete change of my system. Shane is obtaining some quality XLR adapters and we will try the BAT with my gear. The Perfect Wave is really not an option for me because I need HT Bypass.
Sorry to bore you guys on this never ending journey. Again, many thanks to Shane!
Ken
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Ken
Keep it coming. I love this stuff.
Henry
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So I got to have some fun the past couple days listening to a different system and swapping gear around.
A couple key points before jumping in to observations:
1) Ken's goal here is to leave his system alone as much as possible while still finding an amplifier that takes the overall system performance up several notches over his old Odyssey amps.
2) Ken likes the system more on the warm side of neutral, but listens to a lot of rock and roll type music. So it needs to have the punch, drive, and impact necessary to provide satisfying sound on that type of music as well as the female vocals and smaller scale stuff.
3) Ken's favorite band is Dave Mathews. So it doesn't matter what the system sounds like with other music. It needs to do Dave to Ken's standards or this whole exercise is pointless. So two of our test tracks for comparison were Dave Matthews Band (DMB) tracks. We also used some 24/96 Chesky sampler stuff.
On to the comparisons......
When I first arrived this afternoon, Ken was listening to his system with the Moscode in place. The Moscode was running RCA 5963s. Ken was running his Treasures in the Transporter and Tungsol round plate 6sn7s in his preamp. After getting acquainted with the sound, we started the swapping.
We hooked up the PS Audio Perfectwave DAC direct to the BAT VK-60. Source was the Transporter via it's BNC spdif output to RCA coaxial input on the DAC. Ken had mentioned that the bass was completely missing when listening to DMB the night before. I knew some of that was the Sylvania VT-231 tubes and some was likely the fact we were running his Ushers on the 4-6 ohm tap. So we committed the cardinal sin of changing two things at once. We changed to the 3-4 ohm tap on the amp and changed the 8 driver tubes in the amp to Tungsol 6sn7GTB 50's vintage. All kinds of drive and impact on DMB. We were listening at an average of 89-94dB. The BAT has more than enough power to drive Ken's speakers at these volumes, which Ken's says is louder than he ever listens normally.
We then swapped input tubes on the BAT. Out came the Tungsol and in went some '50's vintage RCA 6SN7GT clear glass. Big fat tone, more body, but not as open as the Sylvania VT-231s. All kinds of drive and bottom end impact. They actually had a touch more gain than the Tungsols. So I had to back off the volume a touch to level match back to the 89-94dB range. We listened to a number of the 24/96 stuff using these tubes because we were all infatuated with the tone and syrupy goodness.
I then wanted to prove a point about the tubes. So back in went the Sylvania VT-231s. Much more open and natural sounding. More real sounding vocals and better extension up top, but a noticable weakness in the bass. Not noticed for upright bass playing in the Chesky stuff. But definitely noticed when DMB was played again. Still much better than last night according to Ken. So part of it was the tubes, but a lot of it was the output taps on the amp needed to be changed.
Time to change the pace. In an effort to keep things as close to apples to apples, we left the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC as the DAC and preamp function with the Transporter feeding it digital SPDIF via coaxial. But we put the Moscode in to hear the difference between it and the BAT. We left the RCA 5963s in it to start. The Moscode immediately showed its differences. While the BAT had more than enough bottom end heft, it couldn't match the grip and heft of the Moscode. An immediate sense of more control and more punch. The glorious midrange magic was gone, replaced by something that was more incisive with more attack, speed, and detail. It just didn't bloom like it did. It was more technically correct. But not as intoxicating.
Next came tube rolling in the Moscode itself. Out came the RCA 5963s and in went a Holland pair of Mullard 6922 equivalents with a Phillips Miniwatt SQ gold pin 6922 variant for the inner tube positions. Much more gain than the 5963s. Volume had to be adjusted quite a bit. These were even more technically correct, while at the same time being a touch warmer. Speakers disappeared a bit more. The difference between the Mullard/Phillips combo and the RCAs was kind of like listening to a track on a CD and then playing the same track on a good vinyl setup. The soundstage was bigger, more 3 dimensional, the speakers completely disappear in a wall of sound, the dynamic range seemingly was far greater, etc. etc. etc. This was the most "correct" the system had sounded so far, hitting all the audiophile buttons about frequency extension, imaging, scale, dynamics, detail, etc. But it also completely shut off the side of my brain that was intoxicated by the BAT realness. I didn't really want to listen to music anymore... and it wasn't because I was or wasn't getting tired of listening to the same tracks for the 5 time. This was a sound that would entertain me as an audiophile looking for audiophile performance, but it would eventually make me lose interest and turn off the system. The BAT combo wouldn't do that for me. I'd keep listening with it in the system. The PS Audio/Moscode combo just didn't have enough tube love to keep me attached to it.
At this point, Ken was curious to hear his system components again. So with the same Mullard/Phillips combo in the Moscode, we switched RCAs from the outputs of the PS Audio to the outputs of the Mapletree preamp and we went back to the Transporter's tube ouput stage feeding the tube preamp into the Moscode. It was a let down for me. The soundstage collapsed and had much less front to back depth. The sound became much more anchored to the speakers and I could pick out the speakers for the first time since I first arrived and was listening to the first combo of gear. The individual instruments and voices became more cardboard cutout and rink dinky. Not good....
So more swapping ensued. We pulled out the Phillips SQ and rolled in a pair of older vintage 6N30P-DR super tubes. That transformed things quite a bit. More dimensionality, more warmth, more relaxed sound, all while actually having more detail and increasing the soundstage width and depth several fold. This was the best combo of tubes if Ken were to keep the Moscode and keep the rest of his system in place as is.
One more swap for the day. We pulled the Moscode and hooked up the Butler to see how it compared. Not the right combo in Ken's system if he was wanting to keep his Transporter and 6sn7 based tube preamp with his current tubes. It was too much of the same thing. So we swapped tubes in the Transporter and preamp to Tungsol. In some ways it went in the right direction, but it still wasn't up to the level of the other combos of gear.
What we learned:
1) the best combo of gear for me and Ken's neighbor was the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC feeding the BAT directly. Depending on the music you wanted to hear, tube rolling the 6sn7s in the driver stage of the BAT produced what was desired for the various types of music Ken listens to. Just keep a couple different octets of different vintages around and roll whatever tubes are necessary for the music you want to listen to at that point in time. However, the PS Audio PWD running direct to amp is not an option for Ken because he needs HT bypass. So at best, the PWD would just replace Ken's Modwright Transporter and run single ended into his preamp. We never tried this as again, I didn't bring the PWD along to tempt Ken with changing additional components in his system. Again, trying to keep the rest of Ken's system intact. The PWD was necessary to hear the BAT amp without the hum because the $7 Switchcraft RCA to XLR adapters I have are crap and I couldn't get the Cardas ones here before the weekend. Otherwise I wouldn't have brought it along at all.
2) The BAT amp has more than enough power as a single stereo amp to drive Ken's speakers to his loudest desired volume. The BAT also has more than enough bottom end oomph to satisfy for rock and roll music. It's not the same kind of scale as the Moscode. But it's more than adequate.
3) The one combo of gear Ken still needs to hear is all his equipment driving the BAT... hopefully with better adapters, we can accomplish that next weekend.
4) The Moscode, with the tubes we used, is the easiest transition for Ken. It fits nicely in his existing rack. Ken can use all his existing equipment (the BAT is going to need new speaker cables as his current ones aren't long enough to reach if he leaves the amp to one side or the other where one of his old monoblocks sat). But it's the more expensive option compared to a used BAT.
5) I think tubes are what Ken needs, but he likes the drive and low end grunt that come with a hybrid like the Moscode.
6) I've gone through a number of tube amps recently looking for something to tickle my fancy. I like the BAT amp. I think it's a nice design and it works well. I had forgotten how much I enjoy an all tube amp. I now can't wait to start listening to the custom tube amp project underway.....
Thanks for the hospitality, Ken. I enjoyed hanging out and listening. I also enjoyed the brownies :)
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AWESOME reports!
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Guys, I am happy to report my quest for a new amp ended tonight with the arrival of a Moscode 402AU. I wish to thank Shane Sangster, The Home Theater Doctor, the latest Moscode Dealer in the U.S., for making this happen. Many tried to sway me in other directions but once I heard the 402AU in my system I was hooked. After I had the opportunity to try it a second time I had no reservations about my decison.
Hooked it up ten minutes ago and I am going to hate to go to bed tonight!
Ken
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Congrats, Ken :thumb:!
The quest is over...well...maybe :rofl:.
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Guys, I am happy to report my quest for a new amp ended tonight with the arrival of a Moscode 402AU. I wish to thank Shane Sangster, The Home Theater Doctor, the latest Moscode Dealer in the U.S., for making this happen. Many tried to sway me in other directions but once I heard the 402AU in my system I was hooked. After I had the opportunity to try it a second time I had no reservations about my decision.
Hooked it up ten minutes ago and I am going to hate to go to bed tonight!
Ken
As someone who has happily owned a Moscode 600 (updated to the max by George Kaye) for 24 years now, I think you made a wise move.
Sit back and enjoy. :beer:
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Congrats, Ken :thumb:!
The quest is over...well...maybe :rofl:.
For now....... :D
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Congrats, Ken :thumb:!
The quest is over...well...maybe :rofl:.
For now....... :D
Yes, you guys are correct. I have a commitment from a person to buy the ModWright Transporter and I will therefore be on a quest for a DAC. It never ends! :duh
Ken
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Congrats Ken! I look forward to getting to know the Moscode better in the years ahead. And you still got to have some tubes in there! So let the nervosa continue! At least octals won't fit - thank heavens!
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Congrats Ken and thanks for sharing the journey!
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Guys:
Once I sold the Mono SEs I had some fun experimenting and experienced some stress evaluating the options. Shane was great and loaned me a Butler 2250 to keep me in music through-out the quest. I am glad it is over and am now looking forward to the arrival of the Diamond Tweeters for my speakers. :thumb:
Ken
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Those tweeters are game changing my dear Watson. Your Nervosa is about to be deja vu all over again. The Bfish is still on the line so to speak. Shane nice explanation of results. Interesting reading the procedure and results of such. Very thorough execution. BTW sweet of you to let the Bigfish hold on to the Butler. Nice touch. Someone give him a hug.
Good luck with your decision, it sounds like a good one.
charles
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Those tweeters are game changing my dear Watson. Your Nervosa is about to be deja vu all over again. The Bfish is still on the line so to speak.
charles
Charles:
My advantage is I have heard my speakers with a pair of Diamond Tweeters that Shane loaned to me. Yes, the Diamonds are a game changer in a positive manner as they have the detail of the Be Tweeters without the ringing!
Knowing me, I will struggle with a decision on a DAC to lead me directly into computer audio. After that I am hoping I can enjoy the music!
Ken
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I have only heard a couple of players that best my audio PC as a transport, both in the multi-thousand range. I'm hoping to build a very small (efficient and quiet) Unix machine for the sound room that will best the tweaked Windows machine I'm using now. If that's the case, it'll close the gap for thousands less.
There is no reason to have much more than a tiny computer in the sound room and a NAS or other machine elsewhere with the music on it. There is a bit of a learning curve on a PC based system.. but once that's over, you just listen to music... all of it.. however you want. I use a PC that was going to be thrown out.. I just disabled a bunch of stuff I didn't need and did all the usual Foobar tweaks and it sounds great. No diiiiggiiittttitiizz for me. ;)
Or, you could just bypass the learning curve and get an Ayon.. That even has digital inputs so you could still use audio PC as an input in addition to having an all-in-one cd player. I would've done it if I had a few k in my pocket when John was selling his at a blowout price.. sigh.
-C
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Great ideas Carl. The Ayon CDP with digital input looks like a winner. :drool: I am becoming more enamored with the brand the more I read about it.
I'm also going toward a music PC, so I can run EQ and crossover filters in it. Dual core Atom processors, microATX mobos running linux on flash drive is a great option. Wall wart power supply is silent. There are so many of them now so prices are decent and features abound. If only running foobar and no filters Atom is more than enough, maybe for mild DSP too, I dunno yet.
Nick can help get you going with your mini PC Ken. He knows what's hot for new products and combinations. bpape knows a lot about latest PC parts too.
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Thanks Guys!
Since the amp quest is now over and the Transporter is spoken for I think I will start a DAC Quest Thread! The amp journey on-line was fun (for me at least) so lets do it again!
Ken
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I missed the finale to the amp quest!? :duh
edit.. went back and read... CONGRATS on the new amp! :)
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Ken, you are much more fun than me. All my AN quests always end up undecided. :? You follow through and buy buy buy!
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Yep, i agree, Bigfish gets down to business. I enjoyed the amp saga and tuned in daily, I'm psyched about a new journey. DAC's are changing at lightning speed, and I'm in the market for one also. Oh, wait...... I forgot, I'm not buying any new equipment this year..... well, maybe not...
Rob S.
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Okay Guys, I reseamble those remarks! :rofl: The Moscode is purely kick butt in my system! It is lightening fast and has punch I have not previously experienced. It also provides me with some tube love but the bottom end and speed quickly dispell any thoughts that it is similar to a tube amp. I am a very happy camper!
Ken
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I know that feeling.. you're just sitting there with your mouth open when the big notes hit.. and you're like, wow.. I did the right thing. Enjoy that moment. :)
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Has anyone heard the 402 vs the older 401? Just curious how big the differences are. I'm thinking about trying one with my Ulysses speakers, curious as to how they would match up...
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Has anyone heard the 402 vs the older 401? Just curious how big the differences are. I'm thinking about trying one with my Ulysses speakers, curious as to how they would match up...
Jeff Dorgay of TonePub magazine owns a Moscode 402AU and previously reviewed the 401HR. Send him an e-mail at tonepub@yahoo.com
for his comments.
Ken
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Guys:
I had the opportunity today to play around with some tube rolling in the Moscode 402AU as I was home doing computer work. Man, this thing really responds to tube changes! I have 6H30DRs in the two inside positions and only rolled different tubes in the two outer positions. Started with a pair of RCA 6CG7's I obtained for the Transporter. This combination produced a detailed but somewhat too lean a presentation for me. Next up were Mullard 12AU7's I purchased from Andy of Vintage Tubes. Wow! Killer midrange and I could live with these tubes but I felt something was missing from the top-end. Last was a vintage pair of Amperex Bugle Boys. I love these darn tubes! Crisp top-end with detail, full but not bloated mid-range and a lively bass. I think these tubes are going to stay for awhile!
Ken
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What tube type are the Bugle Boys? Sounds like a fun afternoon!
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What tube type are the Bugle Boys? Sounds like a fun afternoon!
Hi Rich: The Amperex Tubes are 12AU7's I purchased a couple of years ago for the Candela Preamp!
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There are many vintages of Bugle Boys that seem to lean in various directions but overall I have always found them to be a good all-rounder with a lively but not harsh sound. The older the better as always.. Don't get rid of those, Ken.. You'll probably come back to them a few more times in this hobby. ;)
Glad to hear you can shape that amp's sound so easily.. I wish they all had that ability. I'd actually like a tube pre-processor where I could dial in a little warmth, maybe even reverb, and then dial it out too...
Just seems like you'd need that to hear classical, rock, jazz, and various live recordings at their best.
-C
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GI'd actually like a tube pre-processor where I could dial in a little warmth, maybe even reverb, and then dial it out too...
You're not the only one. Remember ART put a tube in the D I/O and had the ability to dial it in and out of the circuit. I was a great idea, but unfortunately it only applied to the A/D side of the device, the D/A was always 100% solid state no matter where you set the dial. :( (is this like with a lousy present where you say oh well, it's the thought that counts? :duh )
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Getting ready to send my 402AU to George for the Vishay/Mundorf upgrades. Exciting times :)
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Getting ready to send my 402AU to George for the Vishay/Mundorf upgrades. Exciting times :)
Over the years my Moscode 600 has made 3 trips to George for various upgrades and it was always well worth the effort. :D
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I heard the 401 a few times at shows, always liked it. Then 402s came to town with Shane and Ken (bigfish,) now I love those amps every time I hear them. George is a good jazz bassist too. :thumb:
I hope you get it back quick and safe Mike
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I hope to get it back quick and safe too. I have really grown to like it and will miss it for the couple weeks that it is gone!
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I think you'll like the improvement. I did.
Scott