AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: richidoo on May 10, 2009, 05:53:09 PM
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Sol came over yesterday to bring the final prototype of his I-60 integrated amp. While he was here we listened to a lot of stuff.
Spectron Musician - on loan from hometheaterdoc. This has great power, extreme clarity, exciting. True clear highs, awesome powerful bass. Impact is Godalmighty. Strong life presence in the music. It will play very loud with no distortion. The clarity takes a bit getting used to, and the amp is best left ON. It sounds a bit too detailed when cold. Lightning storms make continuous ON impossible this time of year. Very revealling. Tape hiss, radio swish, recording details. The detail is strong but not distracting, unless it's cold. I think it mellows a little when warm. It's a fun ride. I can see why people absolutely love this amp. Our own Black Sands Audio is the Canadian distributor. Thanks Shane, I think you're gonna like this one, I will warm it up overnight for your bat ears. Carl this amp will make you pee on yourself so bring extra Depends. It is a sit down and listen amp, very captivating. Usually something so intense would make me tired of it after a week. It wants to play loudly, and my room without treatment can't handle it. Lots of treatments coming, hopefully in time for the G2G. I find that I really like big watts if the delicacy remains. The Spectron can do it.
Samet i60 - Sol's final version of his 60W integrated. It is very nice. Clear clean sound with lots of power and control in the bass. More "normal" sounding than the Spectron, which is a bit of a relief, and I find myself listening to the i60 more often. It is centered, wholesome, honest, no real sound of its own. But not Godalmighty. Designing PCBs for it next.
Exposure 2010S - Sol read the Stereophile review of this integrated and was curious how it would compare with his i60. It has a warm musical certain something like Dudley said in stereophile, but also an edgy slightly metallic distortion in the mid treble. Phono stage sucks. Inside some decent parts alongside some obvious cost cutting measures. Interesting little amp. Good for the money at used prices, but definitely NOT "Stereophile Class A"... Already sold it.
Marantz 1180DC vintage stereo integrated amp, circa 1978. My neighbor's amp, he is the original owner (he also has a 8 track recorder!) It wouldn't turn on, so I recommended Sol fix it. A couple PS caps and a good cleaning of switches and it works like new. Wow, it sounds beautiful. A little compressed and smaller soundstage than modern amps, but the presentation and overall listening experience was superb. It's about 100W, so it had plenty of juice for the Ushers. It has spring terminals with small wire holes so the noted soundstaging deficiencies could well be from the zip cord speaker wire we had to use. A great amp!
PassDIY B1 preamp. I built this one my dammself. Using Pass PCB and their well matched actives, I added Vishay MKT 1822 coupling caps, 7824 regulator, Triad 24VDC wallwart, Alps Blue, Dale resistors, and made the case from plywood which took forever. No electrical mistakes this time, miracle! It is still breaking in the caps, but sounds good, if a little stuffy. There is extension and fantastic bass power and control, a little short on air and microdetails, kinda like a $10k Levinson 326S preamp I once heard. You can hear everything, but removing the pre reveals more in the signal. Time will tell. Sol says that stuffiness is JFET sound and suggests replacing buffer jfets with bipolar darlington... maybe later after it is all burned in. Super easy build with the Pass PCB. Even a caveman could do it.
We stuck the Transcendent Grounded Grid preamp into the mix a couple times. It was nice to have it back in the house after a major workout at Carl's while his C220 got new boobs. In front of the i60 it was fat and dancy, a great combo.
stereofool's AR vt100 is here too, needs biasing, but time got too late to play with 400VDC, so next time... Thanks to the the "loaners," Sol, Shane, Steve. Hopefully some of these will still be here for G2G.
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WOW! You've been a busy boy :drool:!
Me, I've spent the entire day, replacing a door that was destroyed in a second break-in, on Tuesday.
Hopefully, when I'm completely through...the new door will be kick-in proof.
I'm hoping that I will be able to listen to the system, again by mid-week.
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Damn Steve! Sorry about the trouble. Get a recording of a big attack dog, and set your computer to play it real loud on the stereo it when motion sensed. The little shit remembers all the booty in there. Get a motion sensing camera, the cops already know the little fucker, you just gotta give them some evidence to lock him up (again)
http://www.smarthome.com
The Spectron is really nice when warmed up. I had a nice long evening of listening to FM while kids went to bed early and wife was working late.
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Yes, definitely very busy.. wow. I too have been busy but in a different way.. This weekend has been all about tackling a mile-long laundry list of little things to finish the basement.. All the while I've been enjoying the C220's higher fidelity. Thanks again to Sol.
I'm looking forward to this diaper-wetting experience.. Glad I'll be sitting on YOUR couch.. ha! Detail with finesse with impact definitely sounds like a winning combo. 8)
Sol's latest achievement sounds like a treat as well.. Sounds like this G2G will be a real smash... Speaking of G2G's... I plan to host one in June and/or after the acoustic panels are up.
Thanks for the very nice summary of the gear, Rich. I hope you get the stuffiness issue resolved on the GG pre. I think I know what you're talking about.. (I might not) but if Sol's got a good idea how to fix it... the end result will be a seriously aweome sounding pre.
Good luck and see you at the G2G!
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Rich:
It definitely sounds like you had a great time. I have been away so much lately that I don't think I have even turned my system on for over two weeks! Darn, my priorities are screwed-up!
Ken
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The GG sounds fine, but the B1 is a tad stuffy so far, but not bad. Both are serious line stages for seriously small money. But neither is as delicate and refined as the Minimax Preamp. I think the B1 cost me about $150 total, with 4 inputs, 2 outputs. Without the PCB even cheaper. It has a lot of potential. I enjoy the experimenting and learning.
I'm looking forward to the g2g also. I hope to have the treatments mostly installed by then.
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Rich,
Was the Spectron the stock SE Mk II model or did it have any upgrades?
I had a little different reaction to the stock Spectron SE Mk II when I auditioned it for almost a month in my system driving the woofers on the Emerald Physics CS2's and Vandy 5A's.
To me , it was not something I could live with as a full range amp. I found the top end noisy and splashy, and the mid-range was a little flat and lean for my tastes. It also lacked the texture and body of the music that I get with my Atma-Sphere MA-1's. These observations are when I used the Spectron on the CS2 woofers (I couldn't use the Spectron on the tweeters, it simply too noisy) and full range on the 5A's.
Used just on the woofers, it had tremendous control and authority and provided a very strong foundation for the music.
George
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Hi George,
It is bone stock mk2. I can understand what you mean about the treble noise. I think that it is amplifying noise on the input, but yes it is more noticable than other amps. The treble of this amp is so strong nothing gets past unnoticed. If it was mine I would short the inputs to see if noise improves. For me the payoff of the input sensitivity and speed is the incredible detail and true to life treble which few SS amps I have heard can do. That's why I like tubes, and I bet you too since you use the OTLs. These highs are more violent than tubes' grace, but I can take that if it is truthful. At first I thought the mids were a little lean in comparison to the bold top and bottom, but they are not in absolute terms. Compared to my Snappers or any other tube amp I have heard this is a little (or a lot) leaner. Correct tone is what I'm after, not comfort and beauty, so this is an interesting step in the search. There's some others I want to hear, but I don't think they'll be this fast.
Perhaps you were using a tube preamp with it? My tube pre caused a soft (-50dB) slowly rising feedback siren on startup, so I shut er down right away. Could have been a little offset from the still cold preamp, but I didn't want to explore that. So far I have only used my Sansui tuna straight into the Spectron, with great results. I could easily live with it. But I don't like it when it is cold.
The more I listen to it, the more I like it musically. It is worlds better than the NuForce 9SE that I heard about 2 years ago. I think it has great synergy with my speakers. Other Usher beryllium owners have said they like it. The Ushers throw a huge soundstage, this amp fills it better than any other amp so far.
The right channel does have a ~-70db quiet high freq noise, the left side is quiet. There is minor hiss in both -80dB, but I assume that is coming in on the inputs through my unshielded Grover ICs. When the music starts that all disappears. The texture and detail is intensely musical. But quibbles nonetheless, for $7500???
I think some class D amps are more sensitive to system matching than others, perhaps due to the design style of the mfgs. Maybe that's why the wide range of opinions, the sound of the same varies in different systems. I've always liked the stable and reliable Hypex on paper, but reluctant to pony up for them because I always hear they are smooth and boring with opamp input. Now with W4S, BelCanto, Spectron building their own inputs things might improve for class D in high end audio. The spectron is as musically exciting as my Snappers, but even more bold. Both have quibbles. As probably all truly high end amps do, at least the ones I could afford :rofl:
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Correct tone is what I'm after, not comfort and beauty, so this is an interesting step in the search. There's some others I want to hear, but I don't think they'll be this fast.
If you did want beauty and speed, I think the latest AKSA amps would be the ticket. The only thing they lacked compared to my current amp is finesse. I am addicted to finesse in terms of detail presentation (low noise/black background) and control (imaging, instrument separation, non-congestion on complex music, etc.). However, I often miss the AKSA's 'being there' presentation. It's not that the AKSA didn't have finesse, just not as much as the McIntosh 402.
If it weren't such a hassle to ship, I'd suggest getting one on loan from someone. I think the latest amp is probably a good notch better than what I've heard so, it may actually do finesse, tone, and speed. It is the closest to a tube amp I've heard.. that wasn't a tube amp. I liked it more than the Snappers personally.. But our goals are different. I'm still a big fan of a 2nd generation original... where I have a new performance that's as correct as it can be.. or as correct as I can make it... whatever 'correct' means.. haha. That's a long description..
-C
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I will definitely add it to the list. Too many people I trust love AKSA not to try it. pmkap has Soroya. lonewolf has Aksa too, I think?? It is summer again, time to go hear jazz and amps in NY.... ;) Some new amps coming soon from Hugh too iirc
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I put together Lonewolf's AKSA '100 Nirvana+' and it sounded better than my own. Practice makes perfect. ;) The Soraya was playing the Dave Ellis speakers at RMAF year before last. I thought it was a nice sound but like everything at RMAF, I had a hard time taking away any real observations.
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After the jazz show coasted into NPR whining I noticed the sound of talk (not just the content) was unbearable through the Spectron. Maybe it was just the processing of the local station, or compressed stream.
I spent the afternoon reading about BAT tube amps after seeing one on Craig's list. Gotta resist the tube bug for a little while at least.
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I spent the afternoon reading about BAT tube amps after seeing one on Craig's list. Gotta resist the tube bug for a little while at least.
Don't resist.....I need somebody who is more experienced with tubes then I am to try out PrimaLuna ! :lol:
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I really wish I get you guys some W4S stuff to fool around with. For the money, it will surprise you.
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Aw man, you are cruel....
Why not wait for the current package to land before more temptations?
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Correct tone is what I'm after, not comfort and beauty, so this is an interesting step in the search. There's some others I want to hear, but I don't think they'll be this fast.
If you did want beauty and speed, I think the latest AKSA amps would be the ticket. The only thing they lacked compared to my current amp is finesse. I am addicted to finesse in terms of detail presentation (low noise/black background) and control (imaging, instrument separation, non-congestion on complex music, etc.). However, I often miss the AKSA's 'being there' presentation. It's not that the AKSA didn't have finesse, just not as much as the McIntosh 402.
If it weren't such a hassle to ship, I'd suggest getting one on loan from someone. I think the latest amp is probably a good notch better than what I've heard so, it may actually do finesse, tone, and speed. It is the closest to a tube amp I've heard.. that wasn't a tube amp. I liked it more than the Snappers personally.. But our goals are different. I'm still a big fan of a 2nd generation original... where I have a new performance that's as correct as it can be.. or as correct as I can make it... whatever 'correct' means.. haha. That's a long description..
-C
Carl,
You just described how I feel about the MA-1's! :D/
I would recommend them all the time if it wasn't for a few issues:
1. They are pretty darn expensive.
2. The produce a lot of heat and use a lot of electricity - definitely not green!
3. Since they are OTL's, they require even more careful matching with associated gear.
If you can get past items 1 and 2 and do a good job with number 3, I think they are simply MAGIC!
George
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I may end up with tubes again, but I need to lick my wounds from the last tube adventure.
Spectron was harder to swallow today. You gotta be in the mood for it. The treble is a paradox.
Hey George, what preamp do you use now with the OTLs?
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I put together Lonewolf's AKSA '100 Nirvana+' and it sounded better than my own. Practice makes perfect. ;) The Soraya was playing the Dave Ellis speakers at RMAF year before last. I thought it was a nice sound but like everything at RMAF, I had a hard time taking away any real observations.
You did a great job on it Carl....I use it often...thanks !! :beer:
The Soraya is a good step up over the N+....I've heard Paul's (Occam,pmkap) Soraya a number of times, very nice :)...and soon Hugh (AKSA) should have another model available.
Their good amps..... :D/
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I may end up with tubes again, but I need to lick my wounds from the last tube adventure.
Spectron was harder to swallow today. You gotta be in the mood for it. The treble is a paradox.
Hey George, what preamp do you use now with the OTLs?
Plinius M8
George
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I will definitely add it to the list. Too many people I trust love AKSA not to try it. pmkap has Soroya. lonewolf has Aksa too, I think?? It is summer again, time to go hear jazz and amps in NY.... ;) Some new amps coming soon from Hugh too iirc
Well, stop on by. I just got the latest album from Balkan Beat Box. Its got a great beat, and you can dance to it...
My Soraya Mk I is a lovely amp, and IMO a substantial upgrade to Hugh's previous amps. Truly an iron fist in a silk glove.
Regards,
Paul
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I may end up with tubes again, but I need to lick my wounds from the last tube adventure.
Spectron was harder to swallow today. You gotta be in the mood for it. The treble is a paradox.
Hey George, what preamp do you use now with the OTLs?
Rich
You just can't shake that tube thing can you? Many have tried, but resistance is futile. Yes, sometimes its a royal pain. But at the end of the day, tubes are like a beautiful woman that can cook and light your fire.
Henry
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Rich
You just can't shake that tube thing can you? Many have tried, but resistance is futile. Yes, sometimes its a royal pain. But at the end of the day, tubes are like a beautiful woman that can cook and light your fire.
You got that right Henry. I do miss the richness of the tube amps, I guess I do like a little comfort and beauty after all. But I love the benefits of SS, so I'm enjoying that, and longing for an all in one package - the "perfect woman," we all know where that leads.
Thanks for the invite Paul. I hope I can get up there this summer for a rave and a Soroya audition.
Nice pre George. Says a lot that you follow it with the M1s.
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I may end up with tubes again, but I need to lick my wounds from the last tube adventure.
Spectron was harder to swallow today. You gotta be in the mood for it. The treble is a paradox.
Hey George, what preamp do you use now with the OTLs?
Rich
You just can't shake that tube thing can you? Many have tried, but resistance is futile. Yes, sometimes its a royal pain. But at the end of the day, tubes are like a beautiful woman that can cook and light your fire.
Henry
I tried to shake it and owned some really good ss amps (McCormack DNA-500, BAT VK-600SE, CI Audio D-200's, Plinius SA-250), but as good as they were, I missed my tubes and eased back into things by going with a Moscode 401HR (hybrid amp).
Once I started back down that path, it wasn't too long before I went back fully to tube amps. My first stop was the Bella Extreme 100's, followed by the McAlister PP-150, and finally Atma-Sphere M60's and MA-1's.
I am quite happy to be back in the tube world.
George
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Thanks for your insight George. I have been reading about those amps a lot.
I was a closed minded tube nut since the beginning with my little Cary, then the Manleys. Then I fell for Charles Altmann's superb marketing of a car stereo chip, his BYOB amp. Until I heard that little 5W wonder I had never heard any SS amp ever get high frequencies really right, the way that tubes do almost everytime, even better actually. It is far from perfect, but now I have opened my mind a crack in hope that it is possible and affordable to get that quality of sound in SS with 100wpc. So far I have only heard Classe do it, but not in my home. At home the personality of amps seems to change from in the store or show, Dr Jeckyll / Mr Hyde. So the temptation to go back to tubes is always there, but my speakers have truly awesome bass capabilities which I don't want to waste. 100W tubes just don't get it done. More tube watts is not the answer either, other owners of my speakers crave more slam than their premium tube amps give. Biamping or a SS amp or new speakers.
So you have the built in SS bass amp on the Vandies with Atmaspheres on the top drivers? How do you use MA-1 and M60 together? Or do you use the MA1s on the bass? 8) Intriguing!
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Thanks for your insight George. I have been reading about those amps a lot.
I was a closed minded tube nut since the beginning with my little Cary, then the Manleys. Then I fell for Charles Altmann's superb marketing of a car stereo chip, his BYOB amp. Until I heard that little 5W wonder I had never heard any SS amp ever get high frequencies really right, the way that tubes do almost everytime, even better actually. It is far from perfect, but now I have opened my mind a crack in hope that it is possible and affordable to get that quality of sound in SS with 100wpc. So far I have only heard Classe do it, but not in my home. At home the personality of amps seems to change from in the store or show, Dr Jeckyll / Mr Hyde. So the temptation to go back to tubes is always there, but my speakers have truly awesome bass capabilities which I don't want to waste. 100W tubes just don't get it done. More tube watts is not the answer either, other owners of my speakers crave more slam than their premium tube amps give. Biamping or a SS amp or new speakers.
So you have the built in SS bass amp on the Vandies with Atmaspheres on the top drivers? How do you use MA-1 and M60 together? Or do you use the MA1s on the bass? 8) Intriguing!
I am just using the MA-1's with the 5A's. The powered subs are from 120Hz down to 20Hz and everything above that range is powered by the MA-1's.
When I had my Emerald Physics CS2's, I did use the M-60's on the tweeter and the MA-1's on the woofers. Talk about tubes...that combo used 62 tubes in pure Class A!!! :clap:
George
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When I had my Emerald Physics CS2's, I did use the M-60's on the tweeter and the MA-1's on the woofers. Talk about tubes...that combo used 62 tubes in pure Class A!!! :clap:
George
Perfect for cozying up with on winter nights! Must've been a nice heater for that room. ;)
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Busy busy Rich. :)
Like you I love the sound of tubes but the new speakers (GedLee Abbeys) want more current than most tube amps seem to have. They have a 95dB sensitivity but they suck the life out of a 75W tube amp and my 100W OTL as well, though it's less stressed if I use the Zero Autoformers.
Lately I've been using the "Zero dB" module from an Audio-GD C1 and getting all the voltage gain from my tube linestage. I reworked my preamp to have about 26dB of gain and it's providing all the voltage and the SS part is just for current. No feedback loop in either piece. I have not heard any tube/ss hybrids I've been really fond of but I'm pretty happy with this at the moment. Of course it precludes playing with other preamps but it drives the speakers with ease and sounds very much like the triodes providing the gain. I've come to the realization (again..) that as long as it's clean, more power is better, at least for me. 500W into 4R seems just about right for these speakers. :)
mike
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You guys are having WAY too much fun.
To me Rich, you're looking for what I've looked for, for years. I've tried all the permutations - all SS, all tube, tube amps with SS pre, hybrids, etc. I keep coming back to the same thing. Solid state, discreet, bipolar, Class A solid state amp - GOOD tube preamp. That's what gives me the guts, warmth, detail, imaging, etc. that I hear you asking for.
Bryan
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Cool - thanks ;)
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To me, the solution is pretty simple. Rich needs two systems. Possibly one system for tone and musicality, and one for impact, pace and power. If you love both, I think you may always be frustrated trying to assemble one system that does it all, all the time.
I achieve great pleasure optimizing my two systems with different sources, good sounding cables from different manufacturers, and different amplifier topologies.
The two systems are pretty stable right now, but I look at it more as a collection of components and cables, each of which I don't want to part with. When I want to change the sound, all I need to do is switch something out for awhile.
Chris
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I've got to agree with Bryan - the best my system ever sounded was with BIG Class A monoblocks and a great tube preamp.
Edward
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Am I the only one around here who has an Ice-based amp? I'm kind of afraid to say I like it a lot. It's a good thing I live to far away from the "real deal"! neither my pocket nor my mind (read obsession) could handle the shock.
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Am I the only one around here who has an Ice-based amp? I'm kind of afraid to say I like it a lot. It's a good thing I live to far away from the "real deal"! neither my pocket nor my mind (read obsession) could handle the shock.
Not at all.....it's all I'm running at the moment and thoroughly enjoy what it does.
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John, the newest TAS magazine compares Bel Canto Ref1000mk2 to W4S SX1000 which got trounced. But in the mfg rebuttal, Rick says he has a "reference version" coming out soon which will be even better than current amps. Do you know anything about that?
spudco, what did you have for BIG class A? Do you mean your current Pass X's? I hope you are enjoying the blooms. This has got to be the prettiest springtime I have seen in Carolina since 95. :D
I listened a lot this morning to AltmannDAC>Pass B1>Spectron. Big loud symphonic music is mind blower. The power is unlimited, the brassy tones and bass drums, string bass, dynamics are best I've ever heard. Massed strings are extremely clear and true, but so intense it feels a little unnatural. I think it might be because of the stage miking is picking up more highs than you would hear in a live concert seat. Switching to rock, I played my wife's Sugarland CD. Volume still set to classical levels, a snare rimshot at the beginning might have killed me if I were any older. The hype about dynamics and 120V rails on the spectron website is NOT a lie. There is no limit to the power or dynamics of this amp. Ushers are extremely dynamic too, maybe too much of a good thing in combination! Mix in transient speed and it can be scary real. I wish they still made sound effects discs like REAL audiophiles used to play back in the day. But after a few minutes of pop processed twang country I couldn't stand it and had to shut it off. The pressure in the presence range was crushing my head. Spectron gives it all to you, no mercy. I think pop producers do that on purpose to sound better on cheap car stereos where the publishing money is really made. Gotta penetrate layers of hairspray and precoffee hangover. I switched to Kind of Blue, and Coltranes sound was a little more edgy than usual, Miles sounded even more vulnerable and extemporary than usual. Instrument separation is intense. I have to concentrate to listen to the band as a whole, unlike the tube amp which just floats the whole sound into consciousness effortlessly. People say this separation an attribute of a fine amp, but can it be too much? Maybe it's because I know the album so well, and I am not used to such high resolution portrayal of it.
Despite the detail and strong presence, the soundstage is still back behind the speakers. This makes intimate jazz and chamber music feel more distant. With that feeling of you are here but they are there, the intense detail as if you are on top of them feels weird, like your ear drum is at the mic while your eyes are out in the concert seat. A very interesting and enigmatic amplifier. An incredible technological accomplishment.
The PassDIY B1 preamp is breaking in well now, it's opened up a lot and seems to be cutting the mustard. I never noticed it holding back or veiled. What a nice surprise from such a cheap little circuit! It will be interesting to hear it all dolled up with fancy selector, VC, wire, connectors, wired P>P. and also compared to a pure tube preamp.
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damn it! the Wyred was on the top of my wish list.
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John, the newest TAS magazine compares Bel Canto Ref1000mk2 to W4S SX1000 which got trounced. But in the mfg rebuttal, Rick says he has a "reference version" coming out soon which will be even better than current amps. Do you know anything about that?
I know a few upgrades are in the works but a completely new version is news to me. I will however look into it.
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damn it! the Wyred was on the top of my wish list.
Don't give up so easily. Just because one guy says one is better then another should not be enough to sway you either way. It's one guys opinion and not much else.
Try it for yourself and see what you think. I have been down the Bel Canto road and based on my own ears, I came up with a completely different conclusion which at the end of the day is why I became a W4S dealer versus a Bel Canto dealer.
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I like his attitude, his product-line and I am looking forward to a review of his ref. pre-amp and the up and coming integrated (especially as mine is pretty much the same conception).
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W4S is on my list too shep. Don't get swayed by the magazines, they aren't half the audiophile that you are. I was just reporting the review, not my opinion. I said trounced only because review was remarkably favored toward the BelCanto, rarely acknowledging the 250% price difference.
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damn it! the Wyred was on the top of my wish list.
Don't give up so easily. Just because one guy says one is better then another should not be enough to sway you either way. It's one guys opinion and not much else.
Try it for yourself and see what you think. I have been down the Bel Canto road and based on my own ears, I came up with a completely different conclusion which at the end of the day is why I became a W4S dealer versus a Bel Canto dealer.
OK now here's the deal. If you really want to end all discussions and get to audio nervosa to end all further search; bi-amp those Ushers!! Get a 400-500 wpc solid state amp for the bass drivers and a 125-200 wpc tube amp for the mids and highs. Then mate all of this with a great tube preamp just because, you don't want to leave any tube magic not realized. Sure you gonna spend a little more money. But what the heck you going to spend a lot more searching over the next 5-10 years :D :D
Henry
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Henry, I think Rich needs to try something similar to what you're suggesting, and I can say that the RM 200MKII would be a great possibililty for him to try on his mids/hi's. I've had mine for a whopping 2 days and the sound is glorious from it powering the mid/hi section of my floorstanders (which happen to be powered by a 500w external plate amp.) Sysem and pics over at AC.
Rich, I'll see if I can get mine down there to you sometime for an audition, if you haven't already found the love of your life amp.
Happy listening.
Rob S.
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"OK now here's the deal. If you really want to end all discussions and get to audio nervosa to end all further search; " Good heavens! there's an Audio Heretic in our midst :duh :shock: End all discussion??? End all further search??? You sure you didn't click on the wrong button? Tell the blind to see and the cripple to walk! Tell the bewildered to get their act together...NEVER tell and audioneurotic to end the discussion or stop searching! Might as well close down all audio forums while you're at it. Boys with toys....tis a noble insanity (well maybe the wives would disagree).
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Henry, I think Rich needs to try something similar to what you're suggesting, and I can say that the RM 200MKII would be a great possibility for him to try on his mids/hi's. I've had mine for a whopping 2 days and the sound is glorious from it powering the mid/hi section of my floorstanders (which happen to be powered by a 500w external plate amp.) System and pics over at AC.
Rich, I'll see if I can get mine down there to you sometime for an audition, if you haven't already found the love of your life amp.
Happy listening.
Rob S.
Rob
Sounds like a great idea to help Rich decide. I saw your system set-up on the AC. Very impressive! I am now thinking of playing the lottery full time... in several states!
Shep, you are so right. It was a momentary Freudian slip. To end all is always momentary. But the reality is, we are all crazy. Some more crazy than others (those with more money to spend). We all need a moment of sanity every so often. It usually happens when the wives/girlfriends threatens to buy something of equal value each time you do something crazy.
Henry
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That's better...you redeem yourself quickly!
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I love to see two Music Reference owners telling me to go back to tubes... Glad you are both so happy guys! Henry turned me on to MR, and I mentioned it to Rob, and so it goes!!! The tubers are grinning!
Talk about crazy? I drove 520 miles today to buy a pair of GR/Rythmik servo subs. Got a great deal (not counting travel) and met a heck of a nice, well seasoned audiophile, Larry. Holy shit, talk about a nice system. ASL Hurricanes Maggies, exotic tube preamp, I don't remember all the details. He's getting some Merlins this weekend. I wanted to stay all day to chat. He further fanned my tube embers. He has owned just about every amp and speaker out there, every flavor of class D including W4S, NuForce, spectron, but he always come back to big tube amps and his beloved Sound Labs speakers. He used to be a professional high end speaker designer, I forget which brand. The subs are built beautifully. Anyway, I'm looking forward to playing these subs and seeing if the bass really is "the best I've ever heard" which his what everybody is saying about these, even Larry. He said he compared it directly to SoundLabs bass and liked them both in different ways. That's saying something.
So two more plate amps add to the amp pile. The subs are destined for Carl's system, but they're MINE for now... :twisted: I have some small Feastrex bookshelves ready to sit on top.
Still thinking about yesterday's Shostakovich 5th Symphony with the Spectron. Man that was fun.
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I love to see two Music Reference owners telling me to go back to tubes... Glad you are both so happy guys! Henry turned me on to MR, and I mentioned it to Rob, and so it goes!!! The tubers are grinning!
Talk about crazy? I drove 520 miles today to buy a pair of GR/Rythmik servo subs. Got a great deal (not counting travel) and met a heck of a nice, well seasoned audiophile, Larry. Holy shit, talk about a nice system. ASL Hurricanes Maggies, exotic tube preamp, I don't remember all the details. He's getting some Merlins this weekend. I wanted to stay all day to chat. He further fanned my tube embers. He has owned just about every amp and speaker out there, every flavor of class D including W4S, NuForce, spectron, but he always come back to big tube amps and his beloved Sound Labs speakers. He used to be a professional high end speaker designer, I forget which brand. The subs are built beautifully. Anyway, I'm looking forward to playing these subs and seeing if the bass really is "the best I've ever heard" which his what everybody is saying about these, even Larry. He said he compared it directly to SoundLabs bass and liked them both in different ways. That's saying something.
So two more plate amps add to the amp pile. The subs are destined for Carl's system, but they're MINE for now... :twisted: I have some small Feastrex bookshelves ready to sit on top.
Still thinking about yesterday's Shostakovich 5the Symphony with the Spectron. Man that was fun.
Richadoo the Music Reference is a classic tube design. Loverly tone great bass and a natural sweet top end. A true classic. Beg, borrow, steal to get a home audition. IMO it will synergies with your Ushers quite well.
Not a fan of Ice amps. Cool and clinical. However have not heard them all to make a final judgement. What they do for subs is another story a good one. focused bass. What does bother me though is " an upgrade or mod is coming" IMO get it right BEFORE it goes to market. Did you say $7500 for that ? Did you look inside and see $7500 worth of parts ? For that money I would find my dream amp USED. Joule Electra Marquis. Probably the last amp I would buy. But that's me. A bit steep in price new. Out of touch really.
My reference amps [ in the house ] are an AR Classic 60, AR DR250 servo Mk2, Consonance Cyber 211s mono blocks and last but not least a modified Adcom for my SS fix. Use both passive[ Promitheus dual mono TVC modified by Mapleshade ] and active preamp [ Loesch & Weisner ]. Main speakers are Pipedreams with Maggie 3As [ 3.6 ribbons ] and a lonlely pair of Omegas.
Now all respected amps right. OK so why then does one sound better than the other with different speakers. Say AR sounds great with the Maggie's but not the Pipedreams ? Synergy that's what. There is NO BEST amp IMO. Its what amp and speaker combo one is using. We have all experienced " how come it sounds better in my system " Just like ICs, speaker cables, digital cables etc.
When I'm looking for an amp I contact the speaker Manf. to try to find out what amp was used in voicing the speaker or what amp the designer uses at home. Then I listen in my home to find out if it works for me. Worked with the Maggies and AR. Consonance and the Pipes and Omegas.
BTW the Music Ref amp has a wonderful synergy with the Audible Illusions 3a Preamp and Proac speakers. Just heaven.
IMO we might consider chasing synergy of components instead of the "Amp" of the week. Oh and if you can find a JC Morrison design used BUY IT ! My take anyway.
charles
The amp that has caught my eye lately is the Nightshade line. Handmade, simple and NOT overpriced. Nightshade also offers custom made amps using Trannies you may have from older gear. For example an old Fisher intergrated I'm thinking of having an amp and pre made from. We shall see.
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My notifications stopped.... Sorry slow response..
Anyway - Henry has brouhgt his RM9 over here recently. Everything you said rollo. Surprisingly tight bass, lots of balls. Not quite as graceful and 3D as the Snappers. Looking forward to hearing RM200 at some point. It has FET inputs, I think? Great value there.
$7500 list is for the Spectron Musician 3, which is not an ICE amp. It is discreet circuit analog switching amp with digital feedback after the output filter. Another couple hours with it this morning, geez, it's very nice. Incredible. Best I've heard on these speakers. My previous reservations have been associated with source signal quality. With a good recording it is wicked good. Take some getting used to the big change in performance.
I agree there is no best amp. Just what's best for the system, budget and music taste at that moment, and it can change as taste and system tuning ability improve with experience. Taste evolution makes the best amp's price go up, audiophile skill makes it go down because he can create more art with less money, and has less need for self validation with brand/appearance.
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I'll play the devils advocate here and say there is a best amp. I don't know who makes it,but it will be solid state and it will behave like a straight wire with gain. If the designer strives for High Fidelity, the amp will not be voiced in any fashion. It will tell the truth and if there are faults with how the system sounds then at least you can look elsewhere for the source of the problem.
For my money a lot of problems encountered in assembling a system can be laid at the foot of designers who voice their products. It's kind of difficult to proceed in a straight line to a goal when each piece of gear zigs or zags in opposite directions. This opens the door to to complete mismatches and dissatisfaction with the sound of your system. From where I sit the act of assembling a sound system looks like a complete crapshoot with no way to reliably predict the outcome.
Scotty
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From where I sit the act of assembling a sound system looks like a complete crapshoot with no way to reliably predict the outcome.
Scotty
I came to the same conclusion about gear. That was what pushed me to build a dedicated room with lots of thought and design put into the acoustics. Room acoustics is something I can control with actual measurements.. and I can 'voice' it to my ears. Then everything I play in that room will sound as good as I can make it sound. At least then I have 1 constant.
Often times you're listening to the interactions of your room with gear. How the gear was voiced may play favorably for you, it may not. It just gets more and more complicated. So it is somewhat of a crapshoot... but at the same time there are levels of crap... A cheap receiver won't sound as good as an expensive amp/preamp. As much as some people have tried to make me believe. However, I'd rather have a cheap receiver in a really great room than a ton of nice gear in a really bad room. I've had both! :)
-C
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It will tell the truth and if there are faults with how the system sounds then at least you can look elsewhere for the source of the problem.
I never believed I would believe this, but this week I learned that it's possible to have too much resolution, too straight a wire. Too much truth. I have replaced everything since my first system with extremely high resolution low distortion components. I got a new DAC today (Digital Link3 Cullen mods, from Black Sands) to remove the last "problem" - more on that later, but it is another super component like the other stuff in this system now, all of it together is too much resolution. The music is too intense, I feel the midrange harmonies vibrating inside my head. I need some veils. Anyone who says there's not enough resolution on CD just needs to upgrade their system. But not too much!
miklorsmith was right, it is possible to have too much resolution. OK Mike? Now come on back! [-o<
I also learned today that it is possible to enjoy a lower resolution / higher distortion system even more than the opposite, state of the art ultra resolution system. People love distortion! It's like ketchup.
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richidoo,How much do small acoustic jazz ensembles that are well recorded sound like real life. Also how real do recordings of symphony orchestras sound that have had purest miking techniques used in their production. What I am asking in a round about way is are you looking for a system that will strongly remind you of the real thing when the recording is done well and do you think the current "Hi-Res"setup does this
or are you looking for something else from reproduced music? If your system distortion is actually pretty low
you may be running into production problems in your recordings. It is also possible that the Spectron may have weaknesses that are offsetting its strengths. I would not assume that the problem lies in too much resolution,the too much of a good thing problem might be solved with a change to different ICs or speaker wire. If Carlmans run of Reality Cable speaker wires is long enough you might swap them into the system, I had excellent results using them with a 120watt/8ohms Tripath based amp.
Good luck in your search for right mix of equipment.
Scotty
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Thanks Scotty. You bring up some good points. There should not be a concern with too much resolution. That makes sense, because real life resolution is only limited by the attention focus of the brain and we have no problem with reality. Well, most of us... :lol:
What really matters is how it's presented, is there a distortion that makes the heightened resolution annoying? I had not done any tweaking on first day with DAC, just plugged it up and listened. And blabbed my face on the internet. haha Lots of resolution but feels like too much. Today I had more time to think and be inspired to try some things. First, tried different upsample settings on the DAC. Not much difference there, which is a good sign that 96 and 192 settings sound the same. If they sounded different, one would be right, and the other less right - both less right, or whatever.... more nervosa. Usually those upsample option settings sound like crap, just native resolution sounds best, but on this dac it doesn't make much difference, so far. I thought about the cheap Taiwan $5 crossover caps in the speakers high and mid high passes. They are on the docket anyway, but requires speaker downtime which I have been hesitant to do. Anyway, then I wondered about that little B1 buffer preamp that I built myself, with about $100 parts sitting between DAC and amp. With my other DAC it had less of an effect. I was worried to remove the VC from a new source that I don't trust yet, and the almighty Spectron which could crack my speakers open in an instant. But I also got the new Cullen Sonos player from Black Sands, which upsamples the Sonos redbook stream to to 24 bit/96kHz output, allowing much more digital volume control before losing bits. So I turned it down and connected the DAC straight into Spectron, losing a set of Grover silver ribbon ICs too. Ahhhhhhhhh... that's much better. The B1 is a great pre, don't get me wrong, but it is what it is, a nice sweet diy volume control for $100 of normal quality parts. The tizzies I was hearing on violins and brass buzz disappeared, making the high freq resolution a lot easier to take, but the ultra clear powerful highs remain. I was worried that the dreaded oversampling tinsel was showing, but no. The bass also tightened up considerably. I played the Minnesota Beethoven 9th Symphony at almost full volume, all the way through, loved every minute with my 6yo Beethoven freak daughter on my lap. Now we're getting somewhere. I do have some new wires (Black Sands prototype SIGNAL WIRES :-$ ) burning in now so there's always options there too, but I've always been quite impressed with the effect of JPS wires in the few systems I've heard, but they are also pretty dang revealling.
Big step forward today. MUCH farther down the rabbit hole. I don't know if you tube guys can save me now. I might have to fly through this wormhole to the other side.
With AC down, maybe there are some guys dropping in who have heard Spectron and can share their experiences? Zybar said he didn't really dig it. I have to admit, it was weird at first for me too. But I think the potential is incredible given the normal tweeking and tuning the system for such a big change as a new power amp. I'd like to hear more opinions and experiences. Reliability?
Thanks
Rich
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I love to see two Music Reference owners telling me to go back to tubes... Glad you are both so happy guys! Henry turned me on to MR, and I mentioned it to Rob, and so it goes!!! The tubers are grinning!
Talk about crazy? I drove 520 miles today to buy a pair of GR/Rythmik servo subs. Got a great deal (not counting travel) and met a heck of a nice, well seasoned audiophile, Larry. Holy shit, talk about a nice system. ASL Hurricanes Maggies, exotic tube preamp, I don't remember all the details. He's getting some Merlins this weekend. I wanted to stay all day to chat. He further fanned my tube embers. He has owned just about every amp and speaker out there, every flavor of class D including W4S, NuForce, spectron, but he always come back to big tube amps and his beloved Sound Labs speakers. He used to be a professional high end speaker designer, I forget which brand. The subs are built beautifully. Anyway, I'm looking forward to playing these subs and seeing if the bass really is "the best I've ever heard" which his what everybody is saying about these, even Larry. He said he compared it directly to SoundLabs bass and liked them both in different ways. That's saying something.
So two more plate amps add to the amp pile. The subs are destined for Carl's system, but they're MINE for now... :twisted: I have some small Feastrex bookshelves ready to sit on top.
Still thinking about yesterday's Shostakovich 5th Symphony with the Spectron. Man that was fun.
Let us know what you think of the subs.
I am on the fence about building a pair with two drivers per sub and could use a little nudge to fully commit.
George
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Thanks Scotty. You bring up some good points. There should not be a concern with too much resolution. That makes sense, because real life resolution is only limited by the attention focus of the brain and we have no problem with reality. Well, most of us... :lol:
What really matters is how it's presented, is there a distortion that makes the heightened resolution annoying? I had not done any tweaking on first day with DAC, just plugged it up and listened. And blabbed my face on the internet. haha Lots of resolution but feels like too much. Today I had more time to think and be inspired to try some things. First, tried different upsample settings on the DAC. Not much difference there, which is a good sign that 96 and 192 settings sound the same. If they sounded different, one would be right, and the other less right - both less right, or whatever.... more nervosa. Usually those upsample option settings sound like crap, just native resolution sounds best, but on this dac it doesn't make much difference, so far. I thought about the cheap Taiwan $5 crossover caps in the speakers high and mid high passes. They are on the docket anyway, but requires speaker downtime which I have been hesitant to do. Anyway, then I wondered about that little B1 buffer preamp that I built myself, with about $100 parts sitting between DAC and amp. With my other DAC it had less of an effect. I was worried to remove the VC from a new source that I don't trust yet, and the almighty Spectron which could crack my speakers open in an instant. But I also got the new Cullen Sonos player from Black Sands, which upsamples the Sonos redbook stream to to 24 bit/96kHz output, allowing much more digital volume control before losing bits. So I turned it down and connected the DAC straight into Spectron, losing a set of Grover silver ribbon ICs too. Ahhhhhhhhh... that's much better. The B1 is a great pre, don't get me wrong, but it is what it is, a nice sweet diy volume control for $100 of normal quality parts. The tizzies I was hearing on violins and brass buzz disappeared, making the high freq resolution a lot easier to take, but the ultra clear powerful highs remain. I was worried that the dreaded oversampling tinsel was showing, but no. The bass also tightened up considerably. I played the Minnesota Beethoven 9th Symphony at almost full volume, all the way through, loved every minute with my 6yo Beethoven freak daughter on my lap. Now we're getting somewhere. I do have some new wires (Black Sands prototype SIGNAL WIRES :-$ ) burning in now so there's always options there too, but I've always been quite impressed with the effect of JPS wires in the few systems I've heard, but they are also pretty dang revealling.
Big step forward today. MUCH farther down the rabbit hole. I don't know if you tube guys can save me now. I might have to fly through this wormhole to the other side.
With AC down, maybe there are some guys dropping in who have heard Spectron and can share their experiences? Zybar said he didn't really dig it. I have to admit, it was weird at first for me too. But I think the potential is incredible given the normal tweeking and tuning the system for such a big change as a new power amp. I'd like to hear more opinions and experiences. Reliability?
Thanks
Rich
Reliability...certainly a major factor in my mind.
Read the boards and you can see that Spectron has had more than its fair share of quality control issues.
Literally almost all the people I know very well that own or owned a Spectron amp (6-8 people) had technical problems with their amps. With that small sample size you always want to be careful drawing conclusions, but it is still not good.
George
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I love to see two Music Reference owners telling me to go back to tubes... Glad you are both so happy guys! Henry turned me on to MR, and I mentioned it to Rob, and so it goes!!! The tubers are grinning!
Talk about crazy? I drove 520 miles today to buy a pair of GR/Rythmik servo subs. Got a great deal (not counting travel) and met a heck of a nice, well seasoned audiophile, Larry. Holy shit, talk about a nice system. ASL Hurricanes Maggies, exotic tube preamp, I don't remember all the details. He's getting some Merlins this weekend. I wanted to stay all day to chat. He further fanned my tube embers. He has owned just about every amp and speaker out there, every flavor of class D including W4S, NuForce, spectron, but he always come back to big tube amps and his beloved Sound Labs speakers. He used to be a professional high end speaker designer, I forget which brand. The subs are built beautifully. Anyway, I'm looking forward to playing these subs and seeing if the bass really is "the best I've ever heard" which his what everybody is saying about these, even Larry. He said he compared it directly to SoundLabs bass and liked them both in different ways. That's saying something.
So two more plate amps add to the amp pile. The subs are destined for Carl's system, but they're MINE for now... :twisted: I have some small Feastrex bookshelves ready to sit on top.
Still thinking about yesterday's Shostakovich 5th Symphony with the Spectron. Man that was fun.
Let us know what you think of the subs.
I am on the fence about building a pair with two drivers per sub and could use a little nudge to fully commit.
George
George, I'm picking up the subs from Rich this afternoon to try in my system.. Once I get them dialed in, I'll be glad to report on how the gel as well.
-C
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Reliability...certainly a major factor in my mind.
Read the boards and you can see that Spectron has had more than its fair share of quality control issues.
Literally almost all the people I know very well that own or owned a Spectron amp (6-8 people) had technical problems with their amps. With that small sample size you always want to be careful drawing conclusions, but it is still not good.
George
Hey George,
I have had a few people say this about Spectron amps and I have had a completely different experience. I have been the Canadian Distributor for over a year now and as a result have had a few Spectron amps go through my hands and to date, I have yet to have one require service. I have also gotten to know a few owners who purchased Spectron prior to my involvement and they have experienced no problems.
There may have been problems in the past that I'm not aware of, but over the last 12 or so months, the failure rate for me is zero.
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Reliability...certainly a major factor in my mind.
Read the boards and you can see that Spectron has had more than its fair share of quality control issues.
Literally almost all the people I know very well that own or owned a Spectron amp (6-8 people) had technical problems with their amps. With that small sample size you always want to be careful drawing conclusions, but it is still not good.
George
Hey George,
I have had a few people say this about Spectron amps and I have had a completely different experience. I have been the Canadian Distributor for over a year now and as a result have had a few Spectron amps go through my hands and to date, I have yet to have one require service. I have also gotten to know a few owners who purchased Spectron prior to my involvement and they have experienced no problems.
There may have been problems in the past that I'm not aware of, but over the last 12 or so months, the failure rate for me is zero.
Glad to hear that John.
That's why I wanted to stress the small sample size.
That being said, my friends (including a former dealer) still had their issues and in all cases they had to have their amp go back to Spectron. I will say that in each case Spectron stood behind their product and resolved the issue.
George
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Thanks George and John
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After another week of listening, I am getting to like this Spectron. The treble is intense, but it's correct. The biggest problem which is a biggun is the quality of recordings. Older recordings remastered to CD by fucking morons are tough to take. But modern recordings are sublime. I have a lot of acoustic treatment going up in the next couple weeks, so that will take down the treble some. Plus upgrading the crossover wire and caps will help with treble refinement too. But from 5k down, this amp is awesome! What I love most about it is the ability to sort out and present ultra complicated passages calmly and cleanly at loud volumes. No sense of strain at all. And I don't have to concentrate to hear or comprehend what is going on. New DAC and maybe the amp too are continuing to break in, it seems to be getting smoother. Switching back to smaller amps the difference is notable. I let the GG preamp warm up for a while before connecting it to Spectron to avoid the little squeal they made together last time, confirmed GG offset was <1mV each channel 8) It did as expected, rolled down the treble intensity, added a surprisingly thin veil, and some hiss. It's a good match, but I know there are tube pres that could do even better. But after an hour of that, I pulled out the preamp and preferred the direct connection overall. It's definitely a mood thing. If I'm up to it, the intensity doesn't bother me, but if I'm tired, it is annoying. I need a switchable 6sn7 buffer stage in an otherwise passive VC. Thanks to Shane for the ongoing offline advice.
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Cool. Hey the only person it has to sound good for is YOU. I stand corrected that the Spectron iwas an Ice amp. Anyway for me it is the upper frequencies that must be correct for my ears. I can live with other issues but the top is the deciding factor for me. Thin, bright, overdetailed, crisp, no decay, fatiguing and I'm outta there. Must have weight, decay, and be three dimensional like floating in air.
Besides in a live event I'm not sitting with the musicians. A mid hall presentation for me. I have noticed that my buddies who like to sit upfront prefer a different sound than me. Interesting actually, maybe a thread on the subject may prove interesting. My guess the SS crowd likes front row seats.
charles
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I'm same as you. I love tube treble. But can't afford 200W of it. Spectron get the tonality and purity right, all those things you mentioned in abundance, but it is strong treble, not gentle like tubes. Being strong you can't ignore it if it's too ragged like you can with tubes, they make things sound prettier than they really are. If rock was my fav music I think I would hate this amp, would make the aggressive mixes unbearable. It soundstages mid hall, not up front like tubes. At first I missed feeling up close, but I think that is a tubular distortion "they are hear".. It sounds so much more real with this amp. Mics are closer than the audience seat, that is still screwy. The detail gives that away.
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The couple of times i have heard the Spectron amps i was impressed with them. They have a certain easy way of providing power they never seem to strain. Pass Labs amps have the same kinda feel to me. You don't ever see either of them break a sweet. sadly they are both out of my price range.
Ed