AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: Emil on February 25, 2016, 11:09:24 AM
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Solid state preamps get no love.
Anyone here using one? Even the most tube-o-phobic audiophile uses tubes in the preamps.
When I thinks SS preamps, I'm thinking sterile, transparent sound but isn't that what we want especially if we have tube amps?
Take the signal from the source and deliver it "untouched" to the tube amps where at that point, the "flavor" of the tubes can be added.
Running SSpreamp to SS amp is another matter
What say you?
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I'm using the XLR pre outs on a Hybrid Class d Chapter integrated atm. It does not seem to do anything wrong or would leave you running for tubes. I am not all that crazy about running pre amp tubes fed by a dac into an SS amp anyways. I have a nice Response Audio tube pre also.
This Chapter integrated has made me look twice at using pre amps only.
Why not buy an integrated and use the pre amp out? Not many tube integrated amps so SS is the most available. I figure if the Integrated sounds good then the pre amp out is good. You get the Integrated power supply which is often overkill feeding a pre amp only. I like overkill. :thumb:
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I played with a Rowland SS preamp once, it was very nice, great tone, clean quiet and the best bass EVER.
It lacked what tubes do, the air and dimensionality that tubes give.
It was great to listen to, its ashame it couldn't do both but not many can do both, so we compromise.
It wasn't sterile like the Modwright preamps, it had a great musicality to it, lots of great color, but if you are used to tubes you may miss the air around the instruments. But some people can't hear the air around the instruments anyway, which is why I believe so many people fight over which is better.
Ignorance is bliss, especially in this hobby!
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I have been running an ARC SP-9 for over 25 years no. It is a hybrid design that only uses two tubes, one in the line stage and one in the phono. I have listened to quite a few preamps over that timeframe but none gave me enough of an improvement to make me want to spend money on them. (Although if I had no preamp and was choosing between some of them and an SP-9 on an equal basis I might have made different decisions, it's not just hard to unseat an incumbent in politics.) One pre that did impress me was the Classe DR-5. Even though it was all SS, it sounded very similar to my SP-9. And I understand that the DR-6 was even better although I can not attest to that first hand.
But as I have discussed before, the things we refer to as tube or SS sound is in reality nothing more than distortion (which by definition is anything that makes the output signal different from the input signal, even if it makes it sound better). So it only stands to reason that as tube and solid state designs get better and more distortion free they are going to end up sounding more and more like each other. In my mind a good amp is a good amp regardless of the technology behind it
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Either or meaning a SS preamp and tubed amp or a tubed preamp and SS amp.
Depending on speakers of course either combo. I prefer a tubed pre and hybrid amp.
charles
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Nah, tubes all the way. 8)
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Although I own a Tube pre I do not necessarily believe that all SS preamps are "inferior". I think if designed correctly they can be very good, but which one? I like the fact that I can tube roll.
I have a SS power amp because I didn't want the hassle of tubes in a power circuit <reliability+ cost>. I believe my SS power amp sounds fine and doesn't give up much to a tube amp. To each his own I say.
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I used to have all tubes, - preamp, power amp, phono preamp. I am now all solid state. It's all about the implementation.
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I run either ST-70 amp or Transcendent OTL to my Zu Druids. Each is controlled by a Parasound Halo P-5. Very nice Preamp IMHO.
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Of course we all prefer what we own....
but I think the OP was asking why the predominance of tubed preamps over SS.
If you think about it it is almost gospel that you have to use a tubed preamp.
Of course you don't have to, but because so many end up using a tubed pre it must make you wonder why the odds ended that way. No?
Was it the cool factor of tubes.
was it the cheapest way to get tubes in the system?
Was it because they preferred the sound of tubes ?
I like tubes, but they are not perfect, they have compromises as does SS gear.
Again we all prefer what we own, in respect to the OP , ask yourself these questions without ego and be completely honest. His post was meant to be though provoking, not provide a platform to tell the virtues of each others gear, because we all own the best...right?
Its a good topic to create some bandwidth ........but if we all talk about how great our gear is the topic ends pretty quickly.
What about a passive pre? that is neither SS or tubes, in some systems they work great.
Are tubes distortion? Perhaps they have higher distortion, but is that what makes our ears happy when we hear them? Now lets not bring up the old odd or even distortion crap, we are all beyond that... but a tube and a SS device recreate differently, forget distortion, it has nothing to do with it, it is the language they speak, and those devices speak differently.
Some can hear it some can't.....usually the guys that use tube amps can, because it makes such a huge difference in that position, it just gets expensive to run tubes in that position, whereas a SS amp is usually cheaper and is much cheaper to run and maintain.
That Rowland pre was so good, it just need a touch more and it would have replaced tubes for me....
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Wow, Ok so i know i certainly don't own the best, not even close. short and sweet: No difference in my opinion. I think it is strictly a preference issue.
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I was being tongue in cheek
but you know what I mean :thumb:
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Mike I think you hit the nail on the head. Many of us like the sounds that we get from tubes but tube amps are just a huge headache from both a reliability and an expense standpoint. I love the sound of my VT-200 but it is a bear to retube (2K if you get tubes from ACR and about $1200 of you get them from outside dealers, and that is for current production tubes, I don't even want to think what it would cost to do it in NOS stuff. And when something goes wrong it goes wrong big time. 480v rails can do a lot of damage might quickly when things go bad. So if you need big watts to drive the speakers of your choice tubes sound great but they are a tough nut to swallow. (and it is not a whole lot cheaper at the other end of the spectrum for flea watt amps.)
Tube preamps on the other hand use less tubes and being small signal tubes they are cheaper and more reliable as well. So a tube preamp is more practical for more people which is why I think you see more of them around.
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First, being open, I am retired, so not manufacturing anymore.
Secondly, I had to change one part in the 11A line preamplifier, so had some listening testing to perform. I continue to test, although not every day. There is no reason why tube preamplifiers have to be artificially flavored.
I have been doing some designing on a "new" test speaker for a few years now. I was never able to find what I really liked. It has allowed me to set the xover so the speaker sounds lean, for component design and listening testing purposes. Being lean sounding, masking is minimized, so I am able to spot differences the preamplifier may create more readily.
After playing many many musical selections, I found my 11A to be slightly off on one selection. A slight touch up, and all is well again. After this, I adjusted the amplifier and xover/speakers for most accurate/natural sonics. This is extremely touchy, altering the zobel resistor by 0,00145% is perceivable. Obviously, variable controls are necessary for parts (and room) variations.
I have not be able to find SS preamplifiers (or amps) to be this accurate. SS tends to falsely boost the bass as well as other problems.
Added: When combining two different philosophies with flaws, the result is always compromises, the voices, the music just are not natural. I would rather eliminate weaknesses in each component first. The voices, dynamics, soundstage, music are more natural. I realize not everyone can design their own system, making it a "vertical" system. But it is something to strive for imo.
I, personally, will stick with tubes all the way for allowing music to be more naturally reproduced.
Cheers
Steve
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For me the Solid State preamps that I love are:
McCormack TLC-1 Deluxe. Love the simplicity and build quality of this preamp. Just plain straight forward control wise and was very neutral/transparent.
Accuphase C200. This preamp is the mainstay of my main system. It has tons of outputs as well as inputs. It is built like a tank and I like the modular cards in there.
Kavent S33/Vincent SA93 Balanced preamp. Very neutral and built like a tank as well. Love the fact that I can control the gain with this preamp.
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Wow! two posts in a row referring to Accuphase. I was just writing about Why I got a used one (C-11) and enjoy it. The reason for my choice is, well I guess I'm lazy and don't want the hassle of tubes. My system is on 24/7 and that just does not equate to tubes. Not having tubes doesn't bother me in the least and doesn't change my love for what I hear.
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I'm not following you on why 24/7 does not equate to tubes. Traditionally, it has been thought that it's the turn on / off processes that limit tube life, and that most line level tubes (we are talking preamps here, no?) will last for a long, long time if running constantly. I've been using tube equipment for over 30 years and I have never had a line tube fail. I may have changed them out of OCD, but nothing ever failed.
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I'm not following you on why 24/7 does not equate to tubes. Traditionally, it has been thought that it's the turn on / off processes that limit tube life, and that most line level tubes (we are talking preamps here, no?) will last for a long, long time if running constantly. I've been using tube equipment for over 30 years and I have never had a line tube fail. I may have changed them out of OCD, but nothing ever failed.
You are lucky I guess. I've had an Amperex tube turn white on me, 2 GE 5751 tubes and some Raytheon 12AU7s tubes develop hums as well. Noisy Northern Electric 12AX7 tube. Tubes can make music sound sweet but they can drive you crazy sometimes.
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Tubes can make music sound sweet but they can drive you crazy sometimes.
Yes they can.......
(http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Silence-Lambs-mv03.jpg)
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I like tube preamps because with tubes, you can tailor the sound to your liking. Don't get me wrong there are a lot of SS preamp that are excellent. Pass Labs come to mind, but then you are stuck with that sound, IMHO.
Let's face it it's fun to roll tubes, otherwise i would probably change equipment more often.
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I have always had SS pre amps and they do indeed all sound different.
The best are neutral and clean sounding. Not really a bad thing when it comes to sound quality and/or delivery. 8)