AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Digital Audio Devices => Topic started by: rollo on October 29, 2014, 08:29:13 AM
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UPS delivered this unit today. Right out of the box it was very impressive. Well built, includes a phase switch [ love that ], runs SS or tubed and yes DSD for you computer types. Love the BNC connection as well.
How does it sound ? Without any break in Sony as a transport. If you own a EE DAC you need to hear the Supreme.
No I am not a dealer just a very happy camper right now. Need to hear it connected to a computer now.
After break in this piece should break the price barrier. Very well done Bill.
charles
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Hey Charles,
Nice to hear: looking forward to your follow up. Maybe you and Fred can bring the DAC Supreme and the Lampizator Amber to a Syndrome/Rave get together for a comparison.
I'd probably come up from FL for that. :drool: :D
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What DAC chip do they use? I have sworn off all Sabre chips. I know implementation, yada.. but the do have a certain kind of sound signature.
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Hey Charles,
Nice to hear: looking forward to your follow up. Maybe you and Fred can bring the DAC Supreme and the Lampizator Amber to a Syndrome/Rave get together for a comparison.
I'd probably come up from FL for that. :drool: :D
+1 :thumb:
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What DAC chip do they use? I have sworn off all Sabre chips. I know implementation, yada.. but the do have a certain kind of sound signature.
Why swear off the sabre chips? :-k
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What DAC chip do they use? I have sworn off all Sabre chips. I know implementation, yada.. but the do have a certain kind of sound signature.
Why swear off the sabre chips? :-k
Yea, Mikey! Inquiring minds want to know! :shock:
SN
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Just thought of this...
Mikey says he's sworn off Sabres. Maybe he's like Stymie and prefers a Cutlass!?!
"Tune in" around the 6:48 mark in the video. At 7:24, Stymie lets everyone know what cutlass he prefers!
http://youtu.be/SJIzVaVbdz4?t=6m48s (http://youtu.be/SJIzVaVbdz4?t=6m48s)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
SN
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What DAC chip do they use? I have sworn off all Sabre chips. I know implementation, yada.. but the do have a certain kind of sound signature.
Chips are paralleled ESS9018. Dual power supplies as well. The only signature I'm getting so far is music not Hi Fi.
I'm curious what DAC's have you tried in your system using that chip ?
I hear the same comments about op amps. Listen to the Miracle Audio phonostage and preamp and that opinion will change. There is more to it then one part. I have heard all to many audiophiles dismiss a component for one part. They missed out on allot IMO.
charles
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Chips are paralleled ESS9018.
The single ESS9018 chip has 8 channels internal, paralleled into 2 groups of 4 for stereo. The dual power transformers are for separate digital and analog circuits.
Does anybody know whether the 9018 in Minimax Supreme is used in current mode or voltage mode? This makes a big difference. Current output mode applies a low impedance load (only a couple ohms) to the DAC letting it run in current mode for lower distortion. Then an I/R conversion makes a voltage signal for output. I have tried both ways, I like current mode much better.
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Hey Charles,
Nice to hear: looking forward to your follow up. Maybe you and Fred can bring the DAC Supreme and the Lampizator Amber to a Syndrome/Rave get together for a comparison.
I'd probably come up from FL for that. :drool: :D
+1 :thumb:
+2, both for hearing the DACs and for Rob coming to visit. :thumb: :thumb:
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lol.... idk any Dac Ive heard and had with the Sabre seem to lack richness, texture, and inner detail. Its just a hunch more that reality probably.. I know what we compared the Yulong DA8 a lot of micro detail was missing and it seemed bright when compared to Bobs Ayre CD player. I had the previous version of the minimax with the Sabre Dac when it was getting passed about and wasn't crazy about it. I also had the Resonessence Labs Concero which was good but not great.
Have you compared the Supreme to the previous version?
Looking forward to more impressions.
Wonder why they didn't use the new version of the 9018.
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Chips are paralleled ESS9018.
The single ESS9018 chip has 8 channels internal, paralleled into 2 groups of 4 for stereo. The dual power transformers are for separate digital and analog circuits.
Does anybody know whether the 9018 in Minimax Supreme is used in current mode or voltage mode? This makes a big difference. Current output mode applies a low impedance load (only a couple ohms) to the DAC letting it run in current mode for lower distortion. Then an I/R conversion makes a voltage signal for output. I have tried both ways, I like current mode much better.
What's this? Is this on the same dac you compared?
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how much is this scrumptious looking dac cost?
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What's this? Is this on the same dac you compared?
What's what?
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Is it basically the same dad with extra toroid in a bigger box so you can mod it?
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What's this? Is this on the same dac you compared?
What's what?
I am not understanding what you are doing or what this is you are talking about? Are you making this adjustment yourself?
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Charlie said it had two DAC chips, I clarified that it has only one DAC chip. Then I clarified that the two power supplies are for digital and analog, not dual mono. Then I clarified some butter - ghee wiz! What adjustments? What comparisons? Turnipforwhat?
Royals lose. :(
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how much is this scrumptious looking dac cost?
Digital Audio Review dot net suggests it's $1350.
It is slowly dawning on me that my becoming a member of AN could result in my spending more $$$$ in the near future. There should have been a warning sign at the entrance.
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how much is this scrumptious looking dac cost?
Digital Audio Review dot net suggests it's $1350.
It is slowly dawning on me that my becoming a member of AN could result in my spending more $$$$ in the near future. There should have been a warning sign at the entrance.
lol
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Charlie said it had two DAC chips, I clarified that it has only one DAC chip. Then I clarified that the two power supplies are for digital and analog, not dual mono. Then I clarified some butter - ghee wiz! What adjustments? What comparisons? Turnipforwhat?
With your Buffalo DAC that you made (actually... you made two no), are you saying you you tried running/configuring the SABRE dac in both current and voltage output mode... and you found the current mode to be better?
And you were then wondering which implementation the EE Supreme employed... right?
Royals lose. :(
Yeah... not a Royals fan per se... but would have liked to see them win. Old school ball.
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The Supreme is $1350
I wrote Alex and asked him to comment to Rich's technical questions.
As for Machinehead, You should probably revisit at least this DAC as all are not alike, I can tell you the MiniMax Dac & DAC PLUS the latter being so much better than the fiirst and now the Supreme which is head & shoulders above the Plus. :thumb:
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Can anyone comment on how this Supreme DAC might compare to either the Benchmark DAC2 HGC or the Auralic Vega? I know it's less expensive than either, but I'm curious about SQ, etc.
Michael
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The Supreme is $1350
I wrote Alex and asked him to comment to Rich's technical questions.
As for Machinehead, You should probably revisit at least this DAC as all are not alike, I can tell you the MiniMax Dac & DAC PLUS the latter being so much better than the fiirst and now the Supreme which is head & shoulders above the Plus. :thumb:
Its a good price too.
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Charlie said it had two DAC chips, I clarified that it has only one DAC chip. Then I clarified that the two power supplies are for digital and analog, not dual mono. Then I clarified some butter - ghee wiz! What adjustments? What comparisons? Turnipforwhat?
Royals lose. :(
That is what I read off the owners manual. Thanks Professor. Hopefully you put that clarified butter on a nice porterhouse.
Anyways back to the sonics. The original we had many years ago at out club meeting won over some folks. I cannot from memory compare the two.
This DAC has tone and is uncolored in its presentation. Body and weight to boot. This is from the SPDIF connection [ using a Straight wire coaxial ] Have not tried the computer yet.
Switched to a different transport and got even better. Using the Plinius now in lieu of Sony. Huge.
For me so far very impressed. Adding the TWL digital PC took it up a notch. Deeper bass and a larger sound stage.
It is still changing so the jury is still out comparing to the ultra DACs. Hopefully after total break in will compare against the reference DACs in our club.
As of this writing KABOM for the buck.
charles
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The Auralic Vega is being delivered next week. Do I just refuse delivery? No. I'll fall on my sword so we have something to compare the EE Supreme to. And yes, I know the Vega is 2.5 times the price. The things I do to remain in this club...
FWIW, the above is thoroughly tongue in cheek. But I do like the Vega as it sounds in my system...
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........ But I do like the Vega as it sounds in my system...
And that's all that counts.
Have fun with the new toy. :D/
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so far my listening has been with front end number two. That consists of using a Mapleshade modified Promitheous transformer passive preamp and Sony DVD player as transport.
Moved over to Plinius as transport and the Loesch & Weisner preamp. Cabling in main system is all TWL from IC's to speaker cable. The digital cable a Staightwire was used in both configurations. The BSG QOL allows me to use multiple preamps and sources as it has four inputs.
Now my little Chickadees we have something to chat about. With the active preamp the game changed. More open, deeper bass, deeper 3D soundstage, No sibilance on vocals [ I love that part ] just better all around.
The tube when used is a bit mellower in presentaion than SS. I perferred the tube with the passive and SS with the tubed preamp. Now though with all components on for 24 hours it is a tough call. Just different. tried rolling the tube to a RCA 12AU7 Cleartop. Oh my ! Different again with more dynamics. So we have options to match any system.
It is getting better everyday. I have yet to meet any digital component that took less than 500 hours to sound it's best. This is no different.
The digital cable and the transport are huge here. Actually with any DAC used. going to try, JPS, Belkin, copper and silver,what no TWL digital cable no there isn't one yet. :duh.
Most will probably use the USB input so we need to get a cracking on that. Maybe we can get a Mac from one of our computer guys in the area ????
So far still impressed.
charles
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Why is phase switch important? To match the recording? How do you know if it's in phase?
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http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/absolutephase.html
It's a polarity switch, same as reversing the speaker wires in a passive speaker.
If a recording has the kick drum reversed, it can sound annoying because it is sucking instead of blowing. Flipping the switch would fix that, but it would reverse the phase of everything on the recording, not just the drum, so other instruments might sound different. I don't understand how higher freq instruments can be affected, but my friend uses a pickin steel guitar recording to determine if the phase of his system is correct. People hear it differently. A remote control phase switch is handy.
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Why is phase switch important? To match the recording? How do you know if it's in phase?
There are people who swear that the maintaining the absolute polarity of an audio signal is crucial to accurate reproduction. Since many pieces of electronic gear invert the phase of a signal between the input and the output and in any recording and mastering chains the signal passes through many different units , it is really a crap shoot as to whether the signal has the correct or inverted absolute phase. And this of course varies from disc to disc.
An Audiophile from Boston by the name of R. C. Johnsen wrote an entire book in the subject (I believe it was back in 1988) entitled "The Wood Effect: Unaccounted Contributor to Error Confusion in Acoustics". The book can still be found on amazon, although used copies go for $125 and up. However, here is a line to a Positive Feedback article that summarizes the concepts presented in the book.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue1/cjwoodeffect.htm
Keep in mind that they are talking about the reproduced signal producing and acoustic waveform that is 180 degrees out of phase with the waveforms produce in the original performance as opposed to what we normally refer to as being out of phase, which is the speaker terminals being connected to the amp with the hot and ground wires connected to the opposite binding posts on the left and right channel speakers.
As for your question on how do we know, you either have to get a list showing the absolute polarity of the particular recording you are playing, or just do it the old fashioned way and listen to both ways and determine with your own ears which is better. This used to be done by switching the speaker cables on both speakers and listening again, but some manufacturers have been kind enough to add phase switches so the absolute polarity can be compare without rearranging wire.
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Beat me to it Rich. I type too damn slow. :duh
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Beat me to it Rich. I type too damn slow. :duh
I just copied a link, you splained it all out. Good things come to those who wait! :D
What about the phase errors that occur within a recording, like drum mics too close to each other, or overdubs, EQ filters, crossed mic wiring. Most engineers don't bother fixing any of that, some try to follow the basic rules of mic placement, but then run it through a flanger anyway. Some use phase tricks to make it sound spacious. So even the phase mistakes have merit in an artistic sense. Even reference recordings do some of their phase tricks with their stereo mics to make the hall sound spacious.
But a single stereo mic pair in acoustic space with acoustic instruments offers a perfect phase on the media. Then it's up to the audiophile to decide how much of that he wants to preserve. Lots of phase twisting perils in a home stereo system, like tube amps and reflex ports. But there are even more in normal record production, so it's mostly moot.
I use LR12 crossovers. I like the compromise between low phase error and good transient accuracy compared to steeper filters. LR12 requires adjacent drivers to be opposite polarity. standard procedure is to put the midrange in absolute phase and the tweet and bass reversed polarity. It still sounds better than LR24 steeper filters, but when the kick drum hits, it sucks instead of blows, that's pretty easy to hear the difference. So I usually reverse my speaker wires permanently to make the bass driver and tweeter in phase with mid reversed, but if mix engineer reverses the bass drum polarity, or if the mastering engineer cuts the master with reverse pol for some reason, then it's nice to press a button to fix the bass drum, or whatever other instrument might be annoying with reversed polarity. Even though everything gets reversed, making some instruments wrong polarity, it might sound better.
It's something that the acoustic psychologists say we can't hear so we shouldn't worry about it. if you have enough nervosa, you can definitely hear it! :thumb:
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You're right. And with multitrack recording each track can go through a different number of processors before they are mixed together so the absolute polarity of the individual instruments may not be the same even within the same recording, so I am not sure how you can ever have anything that is absolutely "correct" in a modern commercial studio recording. If you have the ability to easily switch back and forth between the two polarity setting you may find one that sounds better than the other at times, but I am not sure that it ca really be said that this position is "correct", it is just better sounding. Which I guess can lead to the philosophical question of if some thing is technically correct, but sounds worse was it really correct in the first place? Oh boy! #-o
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You're right. And with multitrack recording each track can go through a different number of processors before they are mixed together so the absolute polarity of the individual instruments may not be the same even within the same recording, so I am not sure how you can ever have anything that is absolutely "correct" in a modern commercial studio recording. If you have the ability to easily switch back and forth between the two polarity setting you may find one that sounds better than the other at times, but I am not sure that it ca really be said that this position is "correct", it is just better sounding. Which I guess can lead to the philosophical question of if some thing is technically correct, but sounds worse was it really correct in the first place? Oh boy! #-o
Yes Siree that is why the BSG QOL is the piece to have. Kills me to say that after us dealers were thrown away by BSG.
I tried numerous times to take it out. Just has to be in. There is no comparison when it is removed. Yes it was to expensive when introduced. However I will state that for the asking price now it will change your world.
Now back to DAC supreme. Very easy to listen to. The tubed presentation is well tube flavored without sounding tubey. The SS presentation is more dynamic and uncolored. The tube can be changed to get what you want. Now do not get me wrong not colored per say just in direct comparison. In my system I perfer the SS over the tube but that's me.
Changing the tube to a RCA cleartop gave more clarity and presence. Love presence.
charles
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Well it appears the tube section just needed some more time. This thing has tone and harmonics like the big boys.
I think allot of EE owners will be upgrading.
charles
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lol.... idk any Dac Ive heard and had with the Sabre seem to lack richness, texture, and inner detail. Its just a hunch more that reality probably.. I know what we compared the Yulong DA8 a lot of micro detail was missing and it seemed bright when compared to Bobs Ayre CD player. I had the previous version of the minimax with the Sabre Dac when it was getting passed about and wasn't crazy about it. I also had the Resonessence Labs Concero which was good but not great.
Have you compared the Supreme to the previous version?
Looking forward to more impressions.
Wonder why they didn't use the new version of the 9018.
I've also found Sabre DACs to be lacking a bit in richness and texture, particularly in the highs, which have a "slippery" quality (kind of like Teflon caps) to them. Changed the output coupling caps on my DAC Plus to VH Audio OIMP and problem solved.
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Well it appears the tube section just needed some more time. This thing has tone and harmonics like the big boys.
I think allot of EE owners will be upgrading.
charles
Any input yet on USB comparisons?
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I know Alex and the engineers put a ton of time in getting the USB implemented correctly as he didn't want to rely on M2Tech again. From what customers tell me, the USB is very stable.
I run HQ Player with Optimizer and JRiver, HQ player set to DSD 128 and the DAC plays 5.64MHz perfectly :thumb:
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Hi Bill,
Happy new year.
Do you convert everything to 2x DSD?
I have heard that many people do this with great success.
Thanks
-Mike
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At the moment I do the 2X DSD, I switch every other week it seems between DSD and the double DSD.
One of my audio buddies tells me to try this setting and that setting so I haven't really settled in yet on one or another.
It's all good with just very slight differences between all the variables.
Bill
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Is the jury out yet on op amps? Sparkos or Dexa??
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I like the Sparko's a lot :thumb: and one of my audio buds really loves them.
Another audio buddy tried the Sparko's in his headphone rig( HD800's and a PS headphone amp and he probably only had the sparko's burn in for 4-5 hours and had to take them out as they hurt his ears, when he went back to Dexa's all was well again and had a more analog smoothness for him. I'll talk with him in a day or two as he was burning in the Sparko's since I talked with him last time which has been just less than a week ago. I'll let you know if they settled down. The extra Gain in the Sparko's was a little to much for him in his headphone system but please keep in mind 4-5 hours just isn't enough time to evaluate or go into critical listening mode.
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It is still changing so the jury is still out comparing to the ultra DACs. Hopefully after total break in will compare against the reference DACs in our club.
As of this writing KABOM for the buck.
charles
Charles any updates? Check out the computer USB input yet?
Thanks...
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No Nick not a computer guy yet. Was enamored by the DAC running SPDIF from Plinius CDP.
Preferred the SS section with tube pulled overall.
charles
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No Nick not a computer guy yet. Was enamored by the DAC running SPDIF from Plinius CDP.
Preferred the SS section with tube pulled overall.
Charlie, Have you hooked up a laptop to the Supreme yet?
charles
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No had to send back the demo piece for a pending sale. From what I've heard the USB computer DSD is killer, however no hands on experience.
charles