Author Topic: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers  (Read 32413 times)

Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2019, 02:55:46 PM »
Nick, You already have a pair of KEF's so you know the good and the bad.  There is a pair of Soundfield SAM-1 for sale at AC at a very good price.  Personally, I think AJ in FL did a much better job with his crossover than KEF did with the same driver.  Don't know what they weigh, but I've not heard a Fritz or Harbeth type speaker that comes close to the realism and soundstage of the SAM-1.   I really wish I had a place for them.  They were by far the best sound under $2500 at a Lone Star Audio Fest several years back.  I don't remember any of the issues you mentioned with your 50's, and I Danny Richie and I spent a good 45 minutes in AJ's untreated room after hours.

I was just on AC and found them. It’s a great price at $650 and I would have bought them immediately. But they are powered.... I like my ICE1200as amp and I’m close to reviving my vinyl setup.
The KEFs are good and my criticism is just an obvious lack of bass and some occasional harshness on violins, female vocals.
i've never found the kef ls50's to be harsh.  could be those ice amps you like so much...  ;)  i heard the sam-1's at a caf a few years back, and they were outstanding, imo.

re: speakers, you might want to check these out:
https://www.annunci.net/firenze/audio-tv-video/piega-coax-102-speakers-2215971
of course, being rare in the usa, you may have to wait awhile to find them.

i have a pair of these; quite outstanding.  retailed for just north of $9k when new; rare as hen's teeth, but if a pair does come up, it will certainly be in your price range.  and, tho floorstanders, they don't take up much room...
http://www.hifido.co.jp/sold/19-20198-02680-00.html

doug s.
(ps - i just noticed after i posted, that you already purchased something else - enjoy!)

Doug,
I am not sure why the harshness exists even with the new Carreras. It certainly could be that new ICE amp that I have, but I have no spare amps laying around to test if that is the case. That’s why I am considering a tube amp or tube integrated. It’s been 30 years since I’ve had a tube amp. As I still want to revive my turntable, etc. I need a preamp or integrated.
I believe you have mentioned the Piegas before and I’ve heard about them from other sources as well. The floor standing unit looks quite nice and unique, but I sure wouldn’t want to tip it over to attach the speaker cables. It reminds me of the hassle that I had with my Shahinian diapason speakers and accessing those binding posts. It’s one of the reasons that I got rid of the diapason’s. Even though the footprint is much larger than I would really want, I was considering the Philharmonic 3s made by Dennis Murphy. But I read the Dennis has health issues and he is getting out of the speaker building business. Jim Salk is helping to finish the outstanding orders.
So far, I am quite happy with the Carreras. These tiny tots....as I like to call them...are quite good. I continued to put hours on them and have a 30 day trial. Builder/owner Fritz is great to deal with.
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
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Audio Envy p cords
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2019, 04:54:39 PM »
i've never found the kef ls50's to be harsh.  could be those ice amps you like so much...  ;)  i heard the sam-1's at a caf a few years back, and they were outstanding, imo.

re: speakers, you might want to check these out:
https://www.annunci.net/firenze/audio-tv-video/piega-coax-102-speakers-2215971
of course, being rare in the usa, you may have to wait awhile to find them.

i have a pair of these; quite outstanding.  retailed for just north of $9k when new; rare as hen's teeth, but if a pair does come up, it will certainly be in your price range.  and, tho floorstanders, they don't take up much room...
http://www.hifido.co.jp/sold/19-20198-02680-00.html

doug s.
(ps - i just noticed after i posted, that you already purchased something else - enjoy!)

Doug,
I am not sure why the harshness exists even with the new Carreras. It certainly could be that new ICE amp that I have, but I have no spare amps laying around to test if that is the case. That’s why I am considering a tube amp or tube integrated. It’s been 30 years since I’ve had a tube amp. As I still want to revive my turntable, etc. I need a preamp or integrated.
I believe you have mentioned the Piegas before and I’ve heard about them from other sources as well. The floor standing unit looks quite nice and unique, but I sure wouldn’t want to tip it over to attach the speaker cables. It reminds me of the hassle that I had with my Shahinian diapason speakers and accessing those binding posts. It’s one of the reasons that I got rid of the diapason’s. Even though the footprint is much larger than I would really want, I was considering the Philharmonic 3s made by Dennis Murphy. But I read the Dennis has health issues and he is getting out of the speaker building business. Jim Salk is helping to finish the outstanding orders.
So far, I am quite happy with the Carreras. These tiny tots....as I like to call them...are quite good. I continued to put hours on them and have a 30 day trial. Builder/owner Fritz is great to deal with.
Nick
hi nick,

you could always try a tube buffer between your preamp and amp.  an inexpensive solution if it works.  personally, i couldn't imagine not having a tube preamp in my main rig, regardless of amp. but you already have a tube preamp, no?  so i'd say again - it's the ice amp - even if s/s, try an amp that isn't class-d.

re tube preamps, i'm currently doing without, as my melos ma333r awaits repair.  it sounded absolutely fantastic after the last mods were done, but the balance control still isn't right, so i sent it back to mark porzilli to fix, but business and health issues have delayed my getting it back.  maybe by x-mas?  i'm seriously considering buying another preamp.  first sound (used) and the new dave berning designed microzotl preamp are on the shortlist.

re: the phil-3's - absolutely phenomenal speakers; 2nd best sound at the caf a few years back, only bettered, imo, by the horning euphrodite's.  absolutely crushed the 2.5 times expensive salk soundscapes.  but i thought you didn't want big heavy speakers in your room? the phil 3's are one of the very few rare products that are a bargain even when purchased new.   ;)  no offense, nick, but getting a pair of the carrerra's when you were considering the phil 3's, which are are the same price, was not the best move, imo...

doug s.

Hi Doug,
Sorry to hear about your Melos preamp. I know how much you like that piece. As you mentioned two preamps you’re considering, I did a search on the First Sound. Very interesting and how it initially was a passive and then the active was developed. As to the Dave Berning designed Microzotl, I had heard of it from the guy who bought my Nola speakers. He had a group of audio buddies and they discussed it and other products in very technical terms. I was kindly invited to join their discussion group. But the scope was far beyond my basic technical knowledge.
As to those Phil 3s, it would have been a very long shot if I had purchased them. The performance to price ratio made it somewhat intriguing. I would have had to move furniture etc to maybe get it to work. My little Carrerras are quite good.
As I mentioned in another post, I’ll look at dsp as a possible solution. As to tube buffers, I’ve never used one and thought they were intended for impedance issues. I don’t recall the impedance numbers on my amp and pre, but I did get those values previously and they were compatible.
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
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Audio Envy p cords
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2019, 10:58:43 PM »
Hi Doug,
Sorry to hear about your Melos preamp. I know how much you like that piece. As you mentioned two preamps you’re considering, I did a search on the First Sound. Very interesting and how it initially was a passive and then the active was developed. As to the Dave Berning designed Microzotl, I had heard of it from the guy who bought my Nola speakers. He had a group of audio buddies and they discussed it and other products in very technical terms. I was kindly invited to join their discussion group. But the scope was far beyond my basic technical knowledge.
As to those Phil 3s, it would have been a very long shot if I had purchased them. The performance to price ratio made it somewhat intriguing. I would have had to move furniture etc to maybe get it to work. My little Carrerras are quite good.
As I mentioned in another post, I’ll look at dsp as a possible solution. As to tube buffers, I’ve never used one and thought they were intended for impedance issues. I don’t recall the impedance numbers on my amp and pre, but I did get those values previously and they were compatible.
Nick
hi nick,

i'm glad you're liking the carrerra's.  i guess i should have done research on the phil-3's; it seems that if you haven't already ordered a pair, you're s.o.l., as dennis murphy's declining health means he's closed up shop.  which is a pity - everything he made was as good as anything at at least 3 times the asking price.  looks like used will be the only way to nab a pair of any of his offerings.  it seems salk may be picking up his offerings, but i am certain the price will be taking a significant hike upwards.

re: tube buffers, yes, they're helpful for impedance matching, but they also will ameliorate harshness, and if they're good ones, they will do it w/o any negative sonic penalties. i have the ase z-man, and a kailin mu-1 that are both excellent. (i never liked the musical fidelity offering, as it was veiled, imo.) in fact, just today, i pulled the trigger on another one - the yaqin sd-cd3 - for $70 shipped, w/a pair of vintage baldwin 6sn7's, i couldn't resist.  it's supposed to be a good one, w/some folks actually upgrading the caps to good effect.

while i've always appreciated dsp for flattening frequency response, from what you're describing, i think a change in amplification is in order.

good listening!

doug s.

Thanks, Doug. I’ll read up on buffers tonight. That would be a simple way to proceed. As I’d prefer not to buy a buffer just to try this out, if anyone has a spare buffer and one pair of ic’s to lend me,  I’d be most appreciative. Pls send me a PM.
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline rollo

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2019, 09:37:52 AM »
  Give it time. Not a fan of ICE amps for top end reproduction. I found them to be bright, hard and over detailed. Especially if only source is digital. Maybe we can get you a tubed amp to check out after you have 200 hours on the speakers.

charles
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Offline Jack

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2019, 07:10:00 PM »
Nick

Might want to take a look at the Belles Aria Integrated amp.  It is on the warmer side of neutral like all of Dave's gear and Fritz is a Belles fan.  The Aria comes up used fairly regularly but if not you should be able to find a dealer with some wiggle room like Audiowaves in Ca. I thought about picking one up used to try but my Audia Flight has a similar signature and all of the same features so no need.  One may very well pop up on the used market by the time your break-in is finished.
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2019, 12:14:18 AM »
Thanks, Doug. I’ll read up on buffers tonight. That would be a simple way to proceed. As I’d prefer not to buy a buffer just to try this out, if anyone has a spare buffer and one pair of ic’s to lend me,  I’d be most appreciative. Pls send me a PM.
Nick
hi nick,

you're using a tubed preamp, correct?  i realized this after i'd made my first posting re: buffers.  if this is the case, i am not sure how much you'd be helped w/a buffer, if your preamp outs are going directly into your amp.  unless a particular source is harsh, while others are not?  then, a buffer after that source, and into your preamp might help. i have used buffers like this into a tubed preamp. 

seriously, tho, i think you might be better off trying another amp.  i have an older electrocompaniet aw75dmb i could lend you, but it would likely be costly to ship both ways.  (i have a pair, actually.)  ec amps are really nice, imo; especially for s/s.  the aw75dmb would be plenty for your carrerra's, 75w into 8 ohms; 150 into 4 ohms; stable with loads <1 ohm; current rating 80A.  yes, that's 80 amps.

doug s.

Doug,
I may take you up on your kind offer. As I have company coming for Thanksgiving...and I’m busy cleaning/preparing, it would be after turkey day. I played with the Roon dsp tonight and it was quite interesting working with the 5 band eq and trying multiple settings. There are also settings for speaker placement. I need to read up on all the available functions. The Roon dsp received a preliminary nod of approval from Hans Beekhuzen on his YouTube channel. He’s quite interesting to watch.
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
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TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2019, 12:17:54 AM »
Nick

Might want to take a look at the Belles Aria Integrated amp.  It is on the warmer side of neutral like all of Dave's gear and Fritz is a Belles fan.  The Aria comes up used fairly regularly but if not you should be able to find a dealer with some wiggle room like Audiowaves in Ca. I thought about picking one up used to try but my Audia Flight has a similar signature and all of the same features so no need.  One may very well pop up on the used market by the time your break-in is finished.

Charles,
I’ll take a look. Am curious...how would the Belles compare with the AH integrateds?
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2019, 12:21:31 AM »
  Give it time. Not a fan of ICE amps for top end reproduction. I found them to be bright, hard and over detailed. Especially if only source is digital. Maybe we can get you a tubed amp to check out after you have 200 hours on the speakers.

charles

Yes, after breakin, would certainly consider tube amp
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline mresseguie

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2019, 06:42:05 PM »
Nick,

I can’t help but wonder how the Carrera speakers would sound powered by my Don Sachs Kootenay 120. I shouldn’t be in a position to offer mine because I should have arrived in Taiwan yesterday. However, something happened that threw a monkey wrench into our well laid plans, so we are in Atlanta with our son instead.  :duh

Anyway, I believe we will return home (in December) for a couple days before flying to Taiwan. If that is the case, I could offer you the use of my amp for a couple months. Of course, I would want it back within a couple days of my return to Oregon in March because I tend to miss it dearly while I’m away. If we don’t return home before flying to Taiwan, you must suffer without it.

About a year ago I had a closed cell foam enclosure made for the amp that would snugly fit into one of our polycarbonate suitcases. I had thought I would take it to Taiwan, but didn’t follow through with this because we spend more time in the US than in Taiwan. I’ve never shipped a heavy suitcase before, but I imagine it would be pretty straight forward, no? Insured shipping might be expensive though.

Whaddya think?

Michael
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 06:57:01 PM by mresseguie »
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Offline Jack

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #54 on: November 21, 2019, 06:54:56 PM »
Michael

Based on my experiment last week I think you are right.  I tried mine with the RM-10 for most of last week and it pushed them easily into the 90-95 db range. I am going to try the Mystere EL-34 based amp tomorrow for a bit and see how it does.  Right now testing out the $499 Nuforce STA-200 based on the Goldmund/Job circuit and it is a very pleasant surprise.  Just needs the right preamp or at least one with adjustable gain. 
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Vista Phono II
Jays Audio CDT3 Mk III
Supratek Cabernet
Kinki Studio EX-B7's
Holo Audio May KTE
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Verity Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's
Audio Envy IC, PC, SC
Inakustik USB, I2S
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2019, 10:06:18 PM »
Nick,

I can’t help but wonder how the Carrera speakers would sound powered by my Don Sachs Kootenay 120. I shouldn’t be in a position to offer mine because I should have arrived in Taiwan yesterday. However, something happened that threw a monkey wrench into our well laid plans, so we are in Atlanta with our son instead.  :duh

Anyway, I believe we will return home (in December) for a couple days before flying to Taiwan. If that is the case, I could offer you the use of my amp for a couple months. Of course, I would want it back within a couple days of my return to Oregon in March because I tend to miss it dearly while I’m away. If we don’t return home before flying to Taiwan, you must suffer without it.

About a year ago I had a closed cell foam enclosure made for the amp that would snugly fit into one of our polycarbonate suitcases. I had thought I would take it to Taiwan, but didn’t follow through with this because we spend more time in the US than in Taiwan. I’ve never shipped a heavy suitcase before, but I imagine it would be pretty straight forward, no? Insured shipping might be expensive though.

Whaddya think?

Michael

Michael,
That’s a kind offer and let me ponder that. My guess is that the Kootenay is a monstrous, heavy beast and it would take 3, well ok 2, old guys to lift it on my stand. I’m 68... It would be wonderful to hear it. I am trying to get to California for Christmas, so we’d have to work out the timing.
I’m glad you posted because I’ve been meaning to give an update on the “tiny tot” Fritzes as I like to call them. They have over 100 hours and I’m carefully keeping track.  It’s truly a wonderful speaker. Great beryllium tweeter and a great 7” mid/woofer. I’m very pleased how this speaker can play some old tunes especially and reveal details and nuances I hadn’t heard before. I thought the LS 50s did a nice job in that dept, but the Fritzes do a much nicer job. The bass reproduction is very good for such a small box...30 lbs. When I played Fanfare for the Common Man the first time, the bass impact was so forceful I was startled. The bass response is down to 37 hz and currently they’re about 18” from the front wall.
I am getting more soundstage depth and the Fritzes make me appreciate how musical my Border Patrol SE dac is. I still have a little boominess in the bass and some glare with vocals, violins, etc. It may be room acoustics or other factors like my ICE amp and I’m trying to educate myself in that area.
I am researching and evaluating potential changes in the preamp, amp, cabling and upgrading the BP dac with Jensen caps....if they are available because they will no longer be made next year. I’ve also taken a look at the nos MDHT dac that uses a TDA 1541A Ohillips chip rather than the 1541 that the BP dac uses. It’s fun for me to read and learn, but as to the very technical stuff...  :shock:
Nick

« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 10:07:57 PM by Nick B »
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2019, 09:10:28 PM »
I spoke with Fritz today and bought the Carreras. I have over 150 hours now and that is more than enough to confirm what a wonderful speaker this is. I’ll post more comments after 250 hours.
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2019, 07:01:20 PM »
These “tiny tot” Fritzes continue to improve and amaze. About 175 hours now. Very musical and great fun to listen to. Detailed, holographic, great tonality. What a great match too with my Audio Hungary preamp.
As a brief aside and not wanting to derail this thread, I’m considering amps or integrateds from microZOTL, Audio Hungary or just trying the used market for a while.
I sent an email to the guy who bought my Nolas in 2018 as I value his experience and opinions. Received a detailed, very helpful response.
What a great hobby that folks are so helpful and generous with their time  :thumb:
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline mresseguie

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2019, 10:17:00 PM »
I've got a question for any of you who own the Carrera Be or Rev 7 SE speakers.

Are you satisfied with their frequency range, or do you ever ponder adding a subwoofer? Alternatively, have you ever imagined taking the Carreras and adding a 10" woofer to make a three-way speaker? Is this unnecessary?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Michael
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 10:26:04 PM by mresseguie »
Daedalus Audio Apollos; Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
SW1X NOS DAC III BAL/SPL; Holo Spring3 KTE
Don Sachs Model 2 preamp
Don Sachs dual mono 300b; Nuprime Evolution STA
Hapa loom
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Offline Jack

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2019, 11:57:31 PM »
Michael

In most situations for most people the bass from the Revelator woofer in either of the two speakers is more than enough in an average room.  In my situation I have the Rythmik and ACI subs in place so I use them in all three systems no matter what the speaker is.  In a large room a subwoofer may be needed as soundstage fill.  Properly adjusted the subs make the Carrera's sound bigger than they are if that makes sense.
JVC QL-Y7 w/ Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Jays Audio CDT3 Mk III
Supratek Cabernet
Kinki Studio EX-B7's
Holo Audio May KTE
Auralic Aries G1
Verity Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's
Audio Envy IC, PC, SC
Inakustik USB, I2S
PSA Stellar P3
Uberbuss