Component or System ?

[rollo]

  One of my biggest pet peeves is when I hear a system someone will say something like "wow that amp, speaker preamp" and so on is what is making the system sound that way.
   Maybe the insertion of said piece tied the system together with better synergy. One component does not make a system. A system does. To date only one exception to that rule. The BSG QOL. Not a dealer any longer.
    If one is using say high efficiency horns a big SS amp is not what your looking for. SET may be a better match. There are many other examples as we have learned. Well hopefully learned.
    Panel speakers that need current over voltage fare better with high powered SS or hybrid amps and visa versa.
     Matching a cart. to an arm and phono stage is key to good sound. Not just buying what a friend says is good.
     Lets say someone just loves a particular speaker. Then one must build the system around that. First thought should be the "room" it is going to be in. Then what amp will be a good match both power wise and character wise. The source character needs to blended in. Rich, bright, neutral all matters in system synergy.
      Even power conditioning and power cords have a character to be dealt with.
     It is not an easy task putting a system together. Hey we all know or have a friend that switches gear out much to often. Buys this buys that then two weeks later selling it. Fickled audiophiles never have good sound or do not break the gear in enough to actually hear what the component is capable of.
    Buy "itus" is common buy right is not. Rant over, please chime in.



charles
     

[topround]

Systems are made up of components. Many times one component will"make" a system.  I agree the relationship between the amp and speaker is critical. You have to find an amp the speaker likes. Another critical, maybe the most critical, is the preamp,many times I have heard a preamp completely change the character of a system. We all agree on system synergy, but sometimes that one component can ruin synergy or make it.

People like myself buy and sell gear for several reasons. Some are searching for a sound, some like to try gear, some just like buying gear.
whether they succeed at whatever they are trying is not really important to outside observers but to the person doing the buying and selling.

Can you imagine you find a pair of amps you like, and settle with them for life? Perhaps it is possible, most normal people do, but we are audiophiles, our stock in trade is the trading and swapping of gear, that is what we do, and that is why there is a large used market out there and why Audiogon does so well.

So Charles, you put those class d Arions in your system and you love them, would you not try anything else? If not just for curiosity's sake?
Of course you would...we all would.

Some people have the ability to buy and sell gear more often than others, perhaps they have more disposable income, others may have access to lots of gear to try, and they do. Some of us have lots of friends with gear that enjoy letting us borrow it for a while. God know we audiophiles tend to be a very generous lot, and we all seem to have an extra preamp or amp lying around...no?

The idea of trying gear seem to me what being an audiophile is about. Music loving is a whole different topic that has nothing with being an audiophile. You can have the shittyest system in the world and be a music lover. God knows Beethoven was deaf in the end.

So trying gear is a good thing for audiophiles

[bhobba]

It most definitely is not easy putting a system together.

IMHO the best way to starts is simply get something that appeals but don't be too fussed about it.

Then the real system building can begin - borrow friends equipment and put it in your system, listen to gear, take advantage on in home demos etc etc.

Over time it will all come together - but don't expect it to be the bees knees from the start - it will take time, a lot of work and mucking around.

Approach it like any hobby - enjoy the journey because that's what it will be.

Thanks
Bill

[rollo]

  An individual component such as an amp cannot fit all speakers. Yes the Arions made a good fit with the Pipedreams over the SET amp. They sounded VG with Pete's' horns as well as the Merrill amps but his SET sounded better in his system than both. Is Pete's' SET better than those amps ? With horns yes with Pipedreams no. 
  The SET at 18W /ch is a great sounding amp . The match with the Pipes was very good. The Arions with about 750W/ch into 6 ohm fared much better. The amount of drivers needed the extra juice. Who knew. I like SET sound just not with every speaker.
  If I decided to stay with the SET it would be better off with horns or single driver say Omega or equal.
   What I guess I'm alluding to is choosing the right match to go after to audition.
    Another point is if one settles on an amp for life or speaker for life or preamp for life one better know what has a synergy before buying.
    I see all to many times one trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
    Meaning for example a speaker that has a particular need for current but they love tubes. I would say to them listen to a speaker made for tubed amps.
     Tubed gear has its place as well as SS gear. Knowing what has a synergy with what is the idea here.
     How many times have we heard someone say after listening to a system " That amp, speaker or CDP sucks. Well how does one make that assumption if listening to a system. Now if the component is inserted after the initial listening then and only then can an opinion be valid.
     There are many personal reasons why some change out gear a lot. Could be disposable income, access to lots of gear etc or just fickled.
     Whatever the reason at least try some prov-en combos. A component no matter how good will not fit all.
     An educated consumer is the best consumer.



charles
     
     

[topround]

Sometimes experience is the best educator.
That and
 a good dose of honesty go a long way

[mdconnelly]

Sometimes experience is the best educator.
That and a good dose of honesty go a long way

How true!

It would be truly interesting to find an audiophile that does not change their system periodically.  Do they exist?  Can you be an audiophile and retain the same system for, say, 20 years?

I think most audiophiles understand the basic requirements of system synergy, no?  Some are likely better at it than others.  But I just think that we love trying to improve on it when time and finances allow.   

Hey, I've been in this hobby for nearly 40 years.  Everything changes over time -- our rooms, our hearing, our taste in music, our financial resources, and the underlying audio technology which, in part, drives us to want to try cool new products.  Many of us also have a fundamental need for change.... new jobs, cars, homes, computers, spouses     Not surprising at all that we do it in this hobby we all cherish.  And, sometimes we screw up.  Hopefully we live and learn.

This discussion reminded me of a Jennifer Warnes song I recently listened to...

The river flows and time it rolls right on.
And maybe what’s good gets a little bit better.
And maybe what's bad gets gone.

[rollo]

Sometimes experience is the best educator.
That and
 a good dose of honesty go a long way

  Excellent point there buckaroo. Experience is the best educator.  Honesty as well but unfortunately has been taken over by political correctness or politeness.
   After someone has a GTG or meeting we read "good time had by all" or "food was great" or "great hospitality" What about the sound ??
     My experience a while back taught me a lesson. I invited a seasoned and experienced friend over to show off the SET amps and the Pipedreams. After a few cuts he said the sound is "High Fi" I was hurt by that at first then said "it is so warm and cozy' he said yes "colored like Hi Fi" Colored warm but colored in his opinion. I liked it though which is all that matters. However willing to prove him wrong as my ego was hurt big time.
     He suggested I try an amp with more power and a neutral character. Suggested I play some unamplified music such as piano and violin as a reference.
     A few days later we compared the SET to a SS hybrid. To my surprise it was closer to the real deal than before.
     I'm glad for his honesty cause hearing from a respected ear that my system was hi fi was about as bad as " Are you in yet".
     After some time went back to the SET and after hearing the power do its thing there was no going back.
      Wouldn't give up though changed tubes and added silver speaker cables to liven up the SET but to no avail.
       Honesty can hurt but I'm glad he was.


charles
    
    

[topround]

That is because you used SET's that were not appropriate for your system, so lesson was learned. Yes SET amps are truly gorgeous sounding, but you need the proper speakers to use them. I guess the pipedreams needed more power.
SET's have a seductive quality that no other design can mimick, but you need the proper speakers to show off their qualities.

My speakers like PP tubes, I have tried lower powered variants but they needed power. At one time I had 1000 watts of SS on them, great SS, but I prefer my PP tubes. My speaker like 60 to 100 watts of tubes, so i feed them that.  SETs are great but if you put them on my speakers every audiophile worth his salt would know that it is a wrong combination.

The "who has the most watts" game is for  amateurs, it has nothing to do with the higher end of things. Spending money to get more watts than you nee is silly I believe, just get something that sounds better.

[Nick B]

Interesting topic. I've been in this for over 20 years and am finally getting there as to the type of sound that I enjoy. That sound being very detailed, natural and a bit on the warm/rich side. Frankly, if it weren't for sites like AN and AC, I'd likely still be spinning my wheels rather than making good progress to that end.

I'm not in the group that has lots of $$ and can audition lots of equipment and cabling for a number of reasons. I also really enjoyed Dave's cables and they appear to be a very good match in my system. With my DNA 1.0 amp, SP Tech 2.1's and Buffalo dac firmly in place, I've got a good start on this synergy thing. I will likely add Dave's cables when my furniture situation is resolved. At that point, it's on to vinyl and adding a phono section and cartridge.

[topround]

vinyl is what turned me around as an audiophile. Vinyl can be deeply rewarding, you don't NEED to spend big bucks to get great results, and it will ultimately take you back to music and less interested in gear.

Getting your turntable set up correctly is critical to success, that, and getting good vinyl of course

[lonewolfny42]

Vinyl can be deeply rewarding...

And very HEAVY to box up and move....

[rollo]

That is because you used SET's that were not appropriate for your system, so lesson was learned. Yes SET amps are truly gorgeous sounding, but you need the proper speakers to use them. I guess the pipedreams needed more power.
SET's have a seductive quality that no other design can mimick, but you need the proper speakers to show off their qualities.

My speakers like PP tubes, I have tried lower powered variants but they needed power. At one time I had 1000 watts of SS on them, great SS, but I prefer my PP tubes. My speaker like 60 to 100 watts of tubes, so i feed them that.  SETs are great but if you put them on my speakers every audiophile worth his salt would know that it is a wrong combination.

The "who has the most watts" game is for  amateurs, it has nothing to do with the higher end of things. Spending money to get more watts than you nee is silly I believe, just get something that sounds better.

   More than appropriate at 94db efficiency, just colored in direct comparison.
    Pipedreams were demonstrated at the shows using Tenor amp 18W/ch. Porzili the designer used 400W Triode amps at his home.
     My Audio Research DR 250 servo amp an all triode affair offering 240W/ch was an excellent match but tube rush nixed that one. Just need new 6550s all 20 of them.
     Another reason to stray from the tube gig for awhile. To re tube that AR would be around $3000. Later for that.
      As I have said many times before SET sound with horns will take you to a place few other systems can. No question there. I prefere SET over PP any day. Why ?
     SET does not use a splitter. I call it the "humpty Dumpty affect" With all the Kings horses and all the Kings Men they could not put him together again.
     No phase splitter mucking up the signal. You want to SET done right ? listen to Coincident 300B amp and his latest speakers. Quite amazing sound. No horns there.
     Listen to TWL Pete's Klipsh with Loesch & weisner amps. Another great example of SET sound.
     So at the end of the day every amp or speaker requires the right amp for that application. That is ALL I'm trying to convey here. We tried two class "D" amps with Pete's system. As good as they were they were no match for the L&W amps. Horns thrive with SET amps. Period.
    Never suggested or insinuated mega watts. Correct that is just silly. Correct matching the amp with the speaker is key.
    Never heard a speaker without an amp. Choose the correct amp design for ones speaker. My whole point here.


charles
     
   

[rollo]

vinyl is what turned me around as an audiophile. Vinyl can be deeply rewarding, you don't NEED to spend big bucks to get great results, and it will ultimately take you back to music and less interested in gear.

Getting your turntable set up correctly is critical to success, that, and getting good vinyl of course

   Agreed you do not have to spend big bucks to get great sound. Just have to know what one is doing to achieve that. Or just start off listening to proven combos first. Find the sound YOU like. Dark and warm, bright, neutral, etc. Analytical or euphoric whatever one likes. One size does not all in this hobby.
   TT setup makes or breaks the deal. Thanks to MF and you the Kuzma sounds better than ever. Pete and I got it very close but MF dialed it in. Oh my !
    Finding out the sound one prefers is the starting point. In our club we have a number of fine sounding systems. All different but achieve emotional impact. The magic words. If your toe is tapping ya got it. 


charles
   

[Werd]

Its both but I think as importantly its the piece that you build your system around. It can be speakers, amp, pre amp. Or type of gear piece. Tube pre or tube amp ... whatever. Everyone has that piece and they know what it is. Its that piece everyone tries to bandaid or prop up with cabling or speaker type, amp power....etc. Abandon that piece and its like starting over.   

[rollo]

Its both but I think as importantly its the piece that you build your system around. It can be speakers, amp, pre amp. Or type of gear piece. Tube pre or tube amp ... whatever. Everyone has that piece and they know what it is. Its that piece everyone tries to bandaid or prop up with cabling or speaker type, amp power....etc. Abandon that piece and its like starting over.   

   Exactly. It has to start with something. I think the key to our hobby is the ability to select components that work together harmonically.
    So in essence being familar with un amplified live music will train ones ears.
     Oh did I mention the most important component of ALL times. Da Room and Da room.



charles