AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Speakers => Topic started by: steve on September 30, 2019, 07:30:06 PM

Title: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: steve on September 30, 2019, 07:30:06 PM
I have been testing the Jupiter copper foil paper and wax 100 volt capacitors and not bad. Somewhat accurate in absolute terms.

Cheers

steve
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: BobM on October 02, 2019, 02:16:47 PM
I agree, they are pretty darn good. I used Amp Ohm paper and oil caps whenever I wanted a sweet and transparent sound on my phono preamp, but they went out of business about 10 years ago and you can;t get them anymore. They were very highly regarded at the time. I then put in the Jupiters and ... when switching between them and the Amp Ohms - there is very little difference. Both great caps.
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: S Clark on October 02, 2019, 03:45:03 PM
Has anyone compared the Miflex Cu in oil to the Jupiters.  I"ve been thinking about trying some in a crossover.  They're about 1/2 the price of Jupiters.
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: steve on October 03, 2019, 03:15:16 PM
Has anyone compared the Miflex Cu in oil to the Jupiters.  I"ve been thinking about trying some in a crossover.  They're about 1/2 the price of Jupiters.

I am with you Scott. I like the higher temperature rating for stability and long life. But I also wonder how they sound compared to Jupiter and Duelands. Is they are as accurate as the Jupiter capacitors at less price, that would be fantastic.
 
Caveat: I have not tested a 600 volt Jupiter copper foil paper and wax capacitor.

cheers
steve
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: rollo on October 10, 2019, 10:39:02 AM
   Steve I have a pair of 1.0 600V Duelund CAST copper caps sitting here doing squat right now. Switched to hybrid copper silver version foe awhile. Would you like to experiment with them ?

charles
I thought I posted this yesterday however maybe did not click on post.
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: steve on October 10, 2019, 08:31:00 PM
   Steve I have a pair of 1.0 600V Duelund CAST copper caps sitting here doing squat right now. Switched to hybrid copper silver version foe awhile. Would you like to experiment with them ?

charles
I thought I posted this yesterday however maybe did not click on post.

Yes, kind of in between values but I can perform a test and get a feel of the sonics. Right now I am using the Jupiter caps in my Modi 2 mod, with absolutely spectacular results.

I will you a PM with my address.

cheers and thanks Charles.

steve
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: steve on December 17, 2019, 07:14:31 AM
I am testing the Mundorf M Supreme capacitor for use in a Modi 2 upgrade. I have also been testing a Jupiter copper foil paper in wax capacitor.

The Jupiter capacitor is a copper paper in wax, 2,2ufd 100 volt with many many hours. The Mundorf capacitor is an M Supreme 3.3uf 600 volt with approximately 50 hours. Although the Jupiter capacitor is smaller in value, the tonal balance is fuller. Right now I would say the Mundorf is more accurate, in absolute terms, than the Jupiter.
However, both are excellent capacitors.

There is a high temperature advantage for the Mundorf as well.

I hope this will help when deciding which capacitor to use to improve their system.

cheers

steve

Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: rollo on May 16, 2020, 12:58:15 PM
   Steve I have a pair of 1.0 600V Duelund CAST copper caps sitting here doing squat right now. Switched to hybrid copper silver version foe awhile. Would you like to experiment with them ?

charles
I thought I posted this yesterday however maybe did not click on post.


   Steve, SORRY MAN. Just forgot. I ordered a pair of .47 Jupiter PIO to try. Still like to try them ?

charles
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: rollo on June 07, 2020, 08:37:53 AM
  Well picked up Beeswax 600V Jupiter caps to use as a coulping cap to the 211 tube in my amp. We shall see I mean hear it soon. Using V-Cap teflon now.



charles
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: steve on July 01, 2020, 04:18:25 PM
   Steve I have a pair of 1.0 600V Duelund CAST copper caps sitting here doing squat right now. Switched to hybrid copper silver version foe awhile. Would you like to experiment with them ?

charles
I thought I posted this yesterday however maybe did not click on post.


   Steve, SORRY MAN. Just forgot. I ordered a pair of .47 Jupiter PIO to try. Still like to try them ?

charles

Hi Charles.

0,47uf are too small to be of any value to me since I use zero global negative feedback in any of my designs.
Of course, there are uses for such values in other areas of the system.

-------------------

General information for newbies in electronic components, especially as coupling and output capacitors in components.

0,47uf value, without feedback, and a following 100k ohm resistor as a load,

one is losing 17% of a 20hz signal,
some 8.5% at 40hz,
some 4.25% at 80hz,
over 2% at 160hz, and
over 1% at 320hz.

Besides lack of punch, it will cause a relationship shift of the fundamental and harmonics of instruments etc from 
the mids down through the lower regions.

Halve the reactive capacitance value, and percentage listed above for 1uf. 1/4 the reactive capacitance, and percentage listed above for 2uf.

If one checks the value of the coupling and output capacitors in their components, one will be surprised how
small virtually all designers use. The smaller the value capacitors, the more compensation for other mistakes in the design. Db values add if multiple capacitors are used in a system. Something to think about.

I tested a much larger value, with 100 volt DC rating, and found the cap to be a little too full in the bottom. Initial impressions can sometimes be deceiving. I edited my initial post to reflect my initial mistake.

Cheers

steve
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: rollo on August 21, 2020, 01:56:06 PM
   Waaaay over my head. I just listen to them after break in. They take a long time to stop changing. A whole other issue. IMHO most do not put the required hours on new caps. Then give up before reaching full potential. TheDuelunds took 500 hours. V-cap was insane 900+ hours. Van Haus phone was off the hook with complaints.

charles
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: steve on September 09, 2020, 03:29:15 PM
   Waaaay over my head. I just listen to them after break in. They take a long time to stop changing. A whole other issue. IMHO most do not put the required hours on new caps. Then give up before reaching full potential. TheDuelunds took 500 hours. V-cap was insane 900+ hours. Van Haus phone was off the hook with complaints.

charles

But I always have to ask the question, just how good is the sound one is hearing? Good compared to what reference?
I don't need to buy components, but the first question I would ask is what size are the coupling capacitors/output capacitor.
If the reply is less than 3uf, no matter the brand, the music will suffer from what it could have been.

Even broken in, the value makes a difference. That simple 0,47uf coupling capacitor with a 100k grid resistor means
that ~17% of the 20hz bass signal is lost, gone, is across the 0,47uf capacitor. The rest, 83% of the 20hz note is across
the grid resistor. That is what the grid of the tube sees, just 83%. At 160hz, 2% of the musical signal is gone, and even at 320hz, 1% of the musical is gone.

If the grid resistor is half the 100k ohms (50k), then double the losses. If the grid resistor is double the size (220k, which is unlikely), the halve the losses above.


Those losses are from just one stage of coupling. Add a second, third etc to one's system and the losses add. This also
applies to highs as well. The music will always be a compromise to some extent.

Using a small capacitor means the music should be too bright since the bass is reduced. So how does one fill out the music? Three ways. Fatten the bass by coupling capacitor design, truncating the highs of the cap, and improper power supply design. RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook addresses the problem of balancing the highs and bass some 70 years ago or more, so the problem is well known, but evidently not mentioned to audiophiles/music lovers.

Of course, most designs out there would probably oscillate, motorboat if the proper size caps were used. And price, well that is a killer IF the boutique brands are actually accurate, which we don't know. The cost is too expensive to even test, and who can afford the prices of multiple capacitors.

Not surprising that tube amps are known for fat, sloppy bass. Correct the problems, design a proper speaker and the bass tightens right up, and sounds quite accurate/natural, just like it should.

Cheers

steve

Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: S Clark on September 09, 2020, 05:02:11 PM
  . TheDuelunds took 500 hours. V-cap was insane 900+ hours. Van Haus phone was off the hook with complaints.

charles
Agree with that being insane.  In my house half a decade would go by before the VH caps would settle... and they'd certainly sound different because I'd have lost more hearing.
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: Nick B on September 09, 2020, 07:22:19 PM
Gary Dews offered a cap upgrade on my Border Patrol SE dac using the Jupiters. Am very, very pleased with the results  :thumb:
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: Brap on January 23, 2021, 07:18:35 AM
Big fan of Mundorf SGO's here.
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: steve on February 09, 2021, 11:02:45 AM
Big fan of Mundorf SGO's here.

I am testing 47uf EVO and EVO in oil (speaker crossover). Needed lots of break in and so far so good. Will be checking for any harshness/edginess as they are very revealing. I am going to use one or two in my upgraded Modi 2. I also need to test smaller values to see how they fare as I would use them in Future 10A/11A if I decide to restart manufacturing.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: Nick B on February 09, 2021, 11:39:35 AM
Interesting, Steve. I’m curious how much more you can get out of your modded Modi 2
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: steve on February 13, 2021, 09:26:17 PM
Interesting, Steve. I’m curious how much more you can get out of your modded Modi 2

Nick, I had the Mundorf EVO caps in the speaker xover and they were excellent. I then removed and installed the pair in the upgraded Modi 2, in parallel with other ps caps, with good success, but again none in the speaker xover.

I may go exclusively Mun caps both in supply and output for consumers since I cannot get my favorite caps, but the sound of the smaller Muns will have to be spot on. If not, then I will not be offering an upgrade to other's Modi 2 dacs.

Right now, the sound is simply unbelievable. I don't even think about using any other dac.

I have reinstalled the EVOs back in my speaker crossovers, and have another new EVO pair coming mid week so
I will have Muns in both the xovers and Modi 2 (after breakin). The sound could be even better but could also be worse if the Muns are not near perfect.

I am being quite careful to gradually add Muns and note the effects.   

cheers

steve

ps. I updated my post since Nick posted #18 below.
Title: Re: Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax Capacitors
Post by: Nick B on February 13, 2021, 10:50:46 PM
Interesting, Steve. I’m curious how much more you can get out of your modded Modi 2

Nick, I had the M caps in the speaker xover and they were excellent. I then removed and installed the pair in the upgraded Modi 2, in parallel with other ps caps, with incredible success. I may go exclusively Mun caps both in
supply and output for consumers since I cannot get my favorite caps, but the sound of the Muns will have to be
spot on, or I will stick with what I am using now.

Right now, the sound is simply unbelievable. I don't even think about using any other dac.

I have reinstalled the EVOs back in my xovers, and have another new pair coming mid week so
I will have Muns in both the xovers and Modi 2 (after breakin). The sound could be even better but could also be worse if the Muns are not near perfect. I am being quite careful to gradually add Muns and note the
effects.   

cheers

steve

Thanks, Steve. Amazing what can be done with an inexpensive DAC. Pls keep us posted