AudioNervosa
Electro Stimulation Ward => Signals and Noise => Topic started by: Carlman on February 10, 2007, 06:45:52 AM
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I currently have Reality Cables IC's (and SC's) and am looking forward to hearing some of Grover Huffman's cables... since John at BSC recommends them. It'll be a while before I get them, though.
But up to now the RC's are among the best I've heard at their price point. I have the ones with Vampire termination and they were about $225 IIRC. They have a nice, transparent sound that gets out of the way of the music.
If money were no object, I think I'd prefer Audience Au24. It has the most natural presentation with the perfect 'pace' that I've ever heard... but at $500+ a pair, I can live without that last percent improvement.
I'm interested in DU's experience with Sonoran, though. I've heard the name but never experimented with it.
Let's hear it!
-C
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I'm interested in DU's experience with Sonoran, though. I've heard the name but never experimented with it.
Not much to tell, really. It's just that my long-time preference ($5,750 retail Stealth Indra) were pushed surprisingly hard by the Sonoran Plateau ICs. If I hadn't already purchased the Indra, I wouldn't have paid the difference - even at my discounted beta-tester prices - over the Sonoran.
With the Indra, you get a little extra tonal 'presence', or realness, if you will; expanded soundstage (far and away the best I've heard - see Srajan's review for more on that); and a way of cleanly removing digital...I don't know...stuff...that seems to be the bane of virtually every system I've ever heard that's connected to anything that isn't spinning vinyl. Every other cable I've heard - including the Sonoran - cleans it up via some sort of masking. Some do it better than others, but with the Indra, it's simply not there...at least I can't hear it, and I believe Srajan had something to say about it as well.
If it weren't for those differences, I'd have sold the Indra in favor of the Sonoran, just on principle. I plan to keep them, though, as a hedge against any future fiscal requirements. After a week or two with the Sonoran, I doubt I'd miss the Indra all that much.
But as is the case with the Butler Monad monoblocks, I know what I have, and I'm not interested in giving it up unless forced. Just can't bring myself to do it.
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I currently have Reality Cables IC's (and SC's) and am looking forward to hearing some of Grover Huffman's cables... since John at BSC recommends them. It'll be a while before I get them, though.
-C
As you mentioned I endorse what Grover is doing on the IC side of things. For me it comes down to performance versus price and I have yet to hear anything that comes close to the price / performance ratio that Grover offers. Granted I have not tried everything that is out there but I’m not sure I need to.
Grover is a great guy who makes a good product at a fair price. Not much more I can say.
:D
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As I understand, Grover only makes IC's. If I end up with the BSPC's and a pair of the Grover IC's, what speaker cable matches up well with these two?
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As I understand, Grover only makes IC's. If I end up with the BSPC's and a pair of the Grover IC's, what speaker cable matches up well with these two?
Grover does speaker wire but to be honest I'm not sure of his prices. I'm also not sure what else he makes. I will shoot him an email and see if I can get him to post on what he all makes.
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Hi everybody, I am so glad John pointed me to this forum. I hand make cables based on a new and patent pending design. Using multiple ribbons of varying gauge using copper and silver. I only sell the finest cables I can make. I've been selling my cables for 3 years now so I'm fairly new on the scene. I do not have a website yet as I want to get my patent first. Already my cables have been compared to the cables mentioned on this forum, with very excellent results. My goal is to make the finest cables at a very reasonable cost. Making them more accessible to more music lovers. I make all manner of Analogue and digital cables, bi-wire speaker cables, single cable speaker cables. I'm glad to have the opportunity to participate with John making my cables available to you guys. And looking forward to your hearing my work.
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Already my cables have been compared to the cables mentioned on this forum, with very excellent results. My goal is to make the finest cables at a very reasonable cost.
I don't know if you were referring to the Indra when you say "cables mentioned on this forum", but I'll be happy to compare them to the Indra if you like. I'll even post a comparative review on this forum.
Regards,
-Jim
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I'll be comparing them to the Straley Cables and possibly some Audience Au24 if I can.
-C
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I've only tried the Conductor of the Audience line, but was impressed considering the price point. I'm told the Au24 is several steps beyond the Conductor in terms of performance, and should be a very good IC.
I look forward to your thoughts.
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Yes the Indra and the Au24. My cables have replaced these in systems. Think of the money you'll have when you sell the Indra. Is it possible for a $150 dollar cable to best a $5000 cable. It is. And this is why I'm in this business.
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If this proves to be true, I want a set, by yesterday. Given how controversial and conflict-laden this subject is, I shall be following it like a dog after a very meaty bone! As much asI hate to admit it, I'm a total sucker from things that cost 150 being as good as those costing 5000!
In fact, I own proof of that (well sort of), 50$ worth of solid core speaker wire from Singapore that is absolutely splendid. So let us please hear much more :D
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Yes the Indra and the Au24. My cables have replaced these in systems. Think of the money you'll have when you sell the Indra. Is it possible for a $150 dollar cable to best a $5000 cable. It is. And this is why I'm in this business.
I doubt it surprises you when I say I've heard similar comments about other cables, only to be disappointed when I auditioned them in my system.
That said, I look forward to the comparison, and so should you. I couldn't care less what the cables and components in my system cost, only about how they sound. If I found a $10 cable that improved the sound of my system, I'd replace the Indra in a heartbeat.
In case that wasn't clear, if your cables outperform the Indra, they will find a permanent place in my system.
As for the money I'll have if/when I sell the Indra, I have two (2) 1m pairs, so I guess I'll have double the fun. :wink:
Regards,
-Jim
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I'm right there with Jim... if it sounds good, I don't care about the money... which goes both ways... I can just easily pay less for great sound as I can pay more. ;) Who wouldn't like that?
I'll work with Grover today or tomorrow on starting the group buy. I've had a lot of stuff come up recently that has kept me from doing the AudioNervosa stuff.
-C
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Grover vs. Indra Update -
The ballots aren't in yet, but regardless of the outcome, Grover's cables are the real deal. For the money, definitely a no-brainer purchase IMHO.
I don't know that they'll be replacing the Indra - that's a mighty tall order - but I'll be keeping the cables Grover sent. They're simply too good to send back.
-Jim
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Jim:
I don't know that they'll be replacing the Indra - that's a mighty tall order - but I'll be keeping the cables Grover sent. They're simply too good to send back.
Care to "loan" me the Grover's for a listen ? Thanks..... :wink:
Chris
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I can't wait to try some myself... Sorry to say I haven't gotten the group buy for Grover's cables together yet... and if anyone is willing to organize it, feel free to step up. Between the T-shirts, BSC group buy, site admin stuff, and running my business, I just haven't had the capacity to add another project into the mix.
Thanks,
Carl
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Care to "loan" me the Grover's for a listen ? Thanks..... :wink:
Absolutely not! Given your generosity over the years, how could I or anyone else turn you down?!? :lol:
However, it will be a while before I can ship them ... that OK? Grover and I agreed a couple of days ago that the comparison should continue, in part to give me more time, and in part because he wants me to listen to them with a pair of speaker cables he's sending. I won't have those for a couple of weeks, and then it'll be a few weeks before we're finished with our comparisons and analysis.
If you don't mind waiting, I'll send 'em to you as soon as I'm finished, Chris. Otherwise, I'll see if I can convince Grover to send a pair out to you.
-Jim
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I can wait Jim.....thanks !! 8)
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I can wait Jim.....thanks !! 8)
Thanks, my friend. I wish I could sent 'em out today, but I promised Grover I'd spend some more time with 'em, and try 'em with the speaker cables.
If it's alright with you, I'll probably speak to Grover about sending you a pair anyway. So far (again, these are preliminary results), I think they're great, a lot better than Straley's ICs in my system. I think Grover has a lot to gain by sending you a pair, especially if you were to send them on a round-robin audition kind of thing when you're finished.
Would you be game for that?
-Jim
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Would you be game for that?
Sounds good to me Jim.....thanks. :D
(Back later tonite....paperwork is done...)
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Can we get some basic info on the Grover IC's? Build, wire (copper, silver or mix), connector type, cost, etc?
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I know cost! :)
Length.................RCA.........XLR.........Digital RCA
.5m....................$130........$195........$75
1m,....................$150........$220........$90
1.5m,.................$170........$245........$105
2m,....................$190........$270........$120
2.5m..................$210........$295........$135
3m.....................$230........$320........$150
Can you tell I've been working on group-buy details? :)
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Can we get some basic info on the Grover IC's? Build, wire (copper, silver or mix), connector type, cost, etc?
He doesn't have a website, and all I know about 'em is how they sound.
Truth is, I'm not sure if anyone aside from Grover knows the build details. Hopefully he'll check in here and share.
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Hi everyone, I'm thrilled that my cables are being discussed here. I’m especially indebted to doubleugly for his willingness to compare my cable to the magnificent Indra. As you can see by my prices I desire to make my cables available to as many music lovers as I can. I have been making cables for 10 years now. I started off professionally with a personal endorsement of Steve Hoffman and his forum. I'm not making a lot of friends in the industry with my prices, but this is a new time, the Internet has started a change that will be very good for us. My cables are a hybrid copper silver combination, in a patent pending design. I have been fighting with the USPO for over 2 years now; they just do not want to give patents to small guys like me. I'm sure big business has a very streamlined means to patents. You should see the already patented cables they claim are based on my design it's truly ludicrous. I hope this patent dance will end soon with my patent. Then all can see my design. I can say this I use very carefully prepared ribbons of the finest materials, in a unique original design.
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I don't have a favorite because I've only got one pair! DH Labs Silver Sonic, bought cheap of Ebay.fr. Turnedout a gut bought a roll of unfinished cable and terminated them himself. I send a picture to DH LAbs and they grumpily agreed they were properly made except the guy got the directionality backwards. Nice cable but not the last word and since my system is very cable sensitive (how do I know? It told me so) I'm interested in anything reasonable/wonderful. So is Grover's the answer to my dreams? I'm putting my foot in it...once again we have the "problem" of nice, well-liked makers on a forum. How the hell do you say publically "I didn't like that"? THis has totally gotten out of hand on AC. I posted about the sacred cow syndrome. That went down so well that I got exactly one reply telling me all is hunky dory. Not true! There are already a bunch of you here, speak up. How will you feel if someone politely trashes your labor-of-love? In the meantime, the price is just barely right (for my budget) for a short length. Grover is this just one offering, one design? That's it? How are we Carl as to a group buy on this or is it too soon?
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And you make speaker cables also?
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I make a new design of speaker cable. Bi-wire is my highest performing speaker cable utilizing dedicated cables designed specifically for their function. Normally speaker cable is a compromise, to reproduce the lowest bass a heavy gauge cable is necessary, however this adversely affects the mid-highs. With dedicated bi-wire the mid-high cable is designed to only transfer this range. The bass cable the bass. Without the compromises, an accurate fast and open presentation is obtained.
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First Post for me here!
I use Paul Speltz anti-cables on speakers and ICs and I think they sound excellent, and not just for the money. They are cheap and awesome as many people have discovered. Perhaps Grover's sound even better. I would be interested in comparison. I understand anticables is developing a silver version of interconnect. They use round signal conductors, not ribbons like grovers.
I agree with Grover that the days of cable hype and even brand hype for other components are ending with the advent of internet audio forums, but "big cable" will fight it to the end. There's a lot of money in that racket.
I like the idea of large and small diameter cables for different frequencies, makes sense. I also trust Steve Hoffman's opinion. I have same speakers as him. :D
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I understand and agree with the guage concept - heard it too many times. However, for those of use who have not the ability to biwire, what is our option? To me, it's a combo cable with multiple guage and copper on the + side and silver for a low impedance path to ground on the return side. Thoughts?
Bryan
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... for those of use who have not the ability to biwire, what is our option?
New speakers? :wink:
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First Post for me here!
Welcome! :D
I use Paul Speltz anti-cables on speakers and ICs and I think they sound excellent, and not just for the money. They are cheap and awesome as many people have discovered. Perhaps Grover's sound even better. I would be interested in comparison.
I have Grover's cables, and have another, supposedly improved pair en route. I also have a pair of Paul's anti-cables, and will be able to compare them in my system.
I also trust Steve Hoffman's opinion. I have same speakers as him. :D
Steve has several speakers. Which do you own?
-Jim
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I've been using Concierto Violins throughout my system, other than a Grand digital cable. A few years back, I compared the Concierto's with Nordost SPM Reference interconnects and preferred the Conceirtos for the richness in sound. I recently made a change from a Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 MK-2 DAC to a Monarchy M-24 and really like the Monarchy, which is very nicely priced. The Monarchy has RCA outs and I have an Audio Metallurgy pair of RCA->XLR interconnects and am happy with these. I am trying to get Conceirto Violin Mk-IVs for everything except the speaker wire, for which I plan on keeping the Violin Speaker cables (mk-I). I tried the Speltz speaker cables and while I was impressed for the money, they didn't have the mature warm sound of the Conciertos. I am using a Concierto Grand for my digital, and will be upgrading to a Violin Mk-IV sometime in the near future. Again, this sounded better than a Nordost SPM Reference and I recently tried a Monarchy DR-1, but the Grand sounded better, including better than a Speltz. I am interested in trying the Grovers.
My system:
Sony SCD-1
Monarchy M-24 DAC, w/Stock Phillips
BAT Vk-5i Preamp with 1960's RCA
Blackplate 6L6GC and
Telefunken ecc88's
Classe CAM 350 Monoblock Amps
Sonus Faber Guarnari Homage Speakers
In the process of installing Dedicated subpanel with 5 dedicated lines and Oyaide SWO-XXX outlets. Will be purchasing 4 BCS Silver Ref.
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I've been using Concierto Violins throughout my system, other than a Grand digital cable. A few years back, I compared the Concierto's with Nordost SPM Reference interconnects and preferred the Conceirtos for the richness in sound. I recently made a change from a Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 MK-2 DAC to a Monarchy M-24 and really like the Monarchy, which is very nicely priced. The Monarchy has RCA outs and I have an Audio Metallurgy pair of RCA->XLR interconnects and am happy with these. I am trying to get Conceirto Violin Mk-IVs for everything except the speaker wire, for which I plan on keeping the Violin Speaker cables (mk-I). I tried the Speltz speaker cables and while I was impressed for the money, they didn't have the mature warm sound of the Conciertos. I am using a Concierto Grand for my digital, and will be upgrading to a Violin Mk-IV sometime in the near future. Again, this sounded better than a Nordost SPM Reference and I recently tried a Monarchy DR-1, but the Grand sounded better, including better than a Speltz. I am interested in trying the Grovers.
My system:
Sony SCD-1
Monarchy M-24 DAC, w/Stock Phillips
BAT Vk-5i Preamp with 1960's RCA
Blackplate 6L6GC and
Telefunken ecc88's
Classe CAM 350 Monoblock Amps
Sonus Faber Guarnari Homage Speakers
In the process of installing Dedicated subpanel with 5 dedicated lines and Oyaide SWO-XXX outlets. Will be purchasing 4 BCS Silver Ref.
Nice post! :D
I've heard really good things about the Concierto Violins - specifically w/ Butler amplifiers - but I've never compared them with the Indra. Grover's cables performed much better than I'd anticipated, I'm really looking forward to hearing the already-modified (:shock:) cables Grover is sending.
BTW, congrats on the Silver Ref purchase. You're gonna be *REALLY* happy, I can just about guarantee it!
-Jim
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I'm really curious what you find with the Grovers. Also, I forgot to mention that I also have a Rel Stentor - III, which fills in so much in my system. There really is a magic in these subwoofers, a lot of ambient information. The Conciertos really are great cables, but very pricey. My impression is that not many people know about them? I have yet to find something for which I like the sound more than these - mature, full, round, not harsh, with lots of detail. It would be nice to find some less expensive cables that have as good of a sound.
Enjoy,
Doug
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I'm really curious what you find with the Grovers.
I'll be sure to post my thoughts after I've had time to properly compare and evaluate.
Also, I forgot to mention that I also have a Rel Stentor - III, which fills in so much in my system. There really is a magic in these subwoofers, a lot of ambient information.
Sounds like you've found a really nice set-up that provides what you want and expect from your system.
The Conciertos really are great cables, but very pricey. My impression is that not many people know about them?
I've only heard them mentioned once before, when someone recommended using them w/ Butler 2250s I used to own. He said they were pricey, but that the synergy was amazing.
I have yet to find something for which I like the sound more than these - mature, full, round, not harsh, with lots of detail. It would be nice to find some less expensive cables that have as good of a sound.
I'm right there with you. What I'm hearing with the current cables is good, but not good enough to justify parting with the Indra. That said, Grover is really excited about the new version he's sending. We'll see.
He's also sending a pair of speaker cables he feels are as good as anything available, and they should be a perfect synergistic match with the ICs. Despite the fact that I've mostly gotten out of the cable game since finding the Indra, Straley's speaker cables and John's awesome Silver Refs, I'm really looking forward to auditioning Grover's offerings.
Regardless of the outcome, remember that my opinions are my own, and are reflective of what I hear in my system and in my room. It should not be construed as an indictment of Grover's cables if my wife and I determine the Indra is better. Grover's ICs are the best I've heard at their price point and beyond, and IMO should be on the audition of list of anyone in the market.
-Jim
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I'd be interested in a group buy...if that were a possibility.
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Steveofool,
The Group Buy for Grover's cables is coming soon.... :)
-C
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Grover e-mailed me today that he is still working on the cables [latest iteration Grover S ICs] and he's made some changes in the silver content of the conductors. "Sounding way better." He also said to give him a couple weeks to finalize the cables.
Hopefully he will finalize them before the April 20th close of the Grover IC group buy.
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..as i am ..just today..new to this forum..i will be brief and let the replys follow my short input...i did read the previous posts.i am not familiar with 'grover cables' but am,very familiar with the 'indra'.this was,until recently,my source i/c and is,a superb cable....i have recently replaced all of my cables..starting with the pc's..1 at a time ..with jps 'aluminata' pc's and more recently their i/c's..i am currently auditioning their speaker cables. there is something to cable synergy..would not have believed it before but recent events have proven this ...to me,at least....i am somewhat of a cable junkey and have auditioned a great many of the so-called 'best cables'...the 'aluminatas' are ..by far ..the best i have heard...if you haven't read the recent review in stereophile it is very good.as to the 'why' they are the best..in my system..it's just all about the musical presentation..it is by far the most natural i have heard...anyway..just my thoughts
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Thanks for your thoughts, Calloway... and welcome to AudioNervosa. :)
It's nice to hear some new perspectives on cables.
Looks like JPS makes these... http://www.jpslabs.com/aluminata.shtml
Thanks and hope to see you around.
-Carl
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Actually, I am really curious to see Double Ugly post his impressions as well in comparison to his reference cables.
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Actually, I am really curious to see Double Ugly post his impressions as well in comparison to his reference cables.
The second pair of ICs were good, but in truth didn't fare as well as the first. A third version (in just over a month :shock:) was never sent, nor were the oft-promised "amazing!" speaker cables.
FWIW, here is a snippet from the e-mail I sent Grover -
Kandy and I finally had a chance to compare the cables tonight, and though it was closer in some ways than I'd anticipated, the Indra are simply better in my system.
Specifically, with the Indra the highs were clearer (most apparent on well-recorded piano material, but noticeable on other material - cymbals and triangles specifically), the bass was cleaner (less obvious bass, but clearer and more articulate), and there was more depth and organic presence in the midrange.
Other comments included the soundstage being wider and deeper (Kandy specifically mentioned the feeling of being surrounded by one of her favorite recordings), the Indra making the instruments "more real" or removing a veil (this was noticeable on virtually every decent recording this week), and finally the Indra seemed to make each instrument more 'visible' without negatively affecting the homogeneous nature of the presentation (i.e. all instruments were clearly separate and defined, but the sections all came together musically as one instead of sounding like a group of isolated performers).
As I said above, the now (at least) 2 version-old pair of ICs were better than the second in our estimation. I have no idea how the 3rd (or 4th, or whatever) iteration compares.
-Jim
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I've been through the last 3 versions and it went like this:
1st: good, detailed, extended, but had a slight 'edge' or hardness in the highs. These are black.
2nd: better, same as above but no edge. (these were white with black heatshrink)
3rd: best, detailed and extended but with more midrange clarity and instrument separation... a well-balanced sound.... very transparent and fast without any edginess. (these are white with white heatshrink and are the ones being delivered as part of the group buys)
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3rd: best, detailed and extended but with more midrange clarity and instrument separation... a well-balanced sound.... very transparent and fast without any edginess. (these are white with white heatshrink and are the ones being delivered as part of the group buys)
I agree with your thoughts. These are by far and away the best Grover has done to date.
Grover, run with this design for at least a year before any further updates.....trust me on this! If you want to continue to improve, do it behind the scenes and in a year or so, launch a revision if you feel you have to.
Just my two cents. :D