Author Topic: Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish  (Read 6910 times)

Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish
« on: November 29, 2009, 06:46:54 PM »
Alright folks. After many years of claiming to be a "woodworker", I thought it was about time to buy some Tung oil. After a few decades of using stain, I thought it was about time to expand my long overdue horizons.
Today I've made a small discovery.

I'd like to show you a picture. After you look at the picture, I ask that you close your eyes and think to yourself long and hard about what you've seen. Be honest to yourself. If needed, open your eyes and look at the picture again. Specifically look at the six panels at the bottom of the image.
Gaze for a while if needed.

Ready?

Here's the picture:



Now, what do you think?
Honestly.

The "table" these items are sitting on is your standard yellow pine. Nothing special. In fact, it's 1/4" plywood. Not even sanded. This isn't part of the "test" I placed it here as a reference point.

The test specimen is 4' wide and about 12" tall.
All of the test pieces have been made from the same running piece of material. You can see the black Sharpie lines vertically.

- On the far left is the untreated wood.
- Next (from left to right) is two coats of Polyurethane ("Poly").
- Third is two coats of Tung oil
- Forth is stain and Poly.
- Fifth is stain and Tung oil.
- Finally is stain only.
If you enlarge the image (hold the Ctrl button and press the "+" a few times) you can see where I've identified the test panels.

One thing to note, despite what it looks like by the brand I'm using, I do not work for Minwax. Nor do I have any affiliation with it or it's parent company. This is what happens to be on the shelves at the stores I've been to. Nothing more.


My point to this is that other than a difference in sheen (not noticeable in the photos) I can not tell a difference between the sample panels. Of course the one on the far left is exempt from that comment since it's obviously untreated and different. Rubbing the wood yields similar results. I can not tell a difference between the panels treated in Tung or Poly. The far right panel (stain only) has a distinct "dry" feeling as does the far left panel (untouched).

The cabinet door at the top of the picture is a red oak door that came from my kitchen remodel. I placed it here as a bit of a reference point.

So....Am I missing something?
I thought Tung oil was the cat's meow and it was going to be a "wood epiphany"?


Anxious to hear from the wood experts.
Bob

Offline richidoo

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Re: Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2009, 07:07:19 PM »
Just like when Norm splashes mineral spirits on raw wood to show the grain and give a sense of what it will look like finished - maybe these are all just "wetting" the wood and showing the grain but not adding dye to change the natural color. The oak cabinet door looks to be in the same vein. It's not totally clear of course, the stain must have color, but I guess the poly should have none. They look the same to me except for the sheen. Maybe they are all Minwax's idea of "the color that people want" so they all achieve the same average good wood look.

I have used watco finish on basswood, it was splotchy and dark. Basically just mineral spirit with stain mixed in. I have used General Finishes products before, that stuff is awesome. Always comes out great. 
http://www.generalfinishes.com/

Shouldn't tung oil be applied in layers between sanding smooth to build up thickness of dried oil? It might get darker.

You could always learn Urushi finishing.
http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/~k-yazawa/urushi.html
Urushi is poison ivy.  :shock: But it's very pretty!


Offline Carlman

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Re: Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 06:17:25 AM »
Maybe I missed it but how many coats?  Rich mentions the sanding/layers and I can tell you that will make a huge difference.  I have used Poly and 'antique oil finish' (not sure if that's Tung or not) and the differences were not subtle.  One looked and felt like it had a plastic coating and the other felt like smooth, soft warm wood.  It was the difference of cd's and vinyl.

However, you have to do multiple coats of either to get the full results.  Each coat gets finer and finer sanding.

Also, on stain, that is a magical balance of quantity, thinning, and coats.  Wood choice determines the stain character.. I did a poplar in dark cherry and it was tough.  Poplar is super absorbent and if you use a oil-based stain it can get blotchy.  I used water-based which looked ok but not stellar.  No amount of poly or other oil would make that wood look 'great'.  

A nice, tight walnut on the other hand will stain much better... as will oak.  I like cherry but it's tough to find a good piece... so, if I have to do another wood project, it's going to be veneer for me.  Veneers take stain differently also..

Anyway, do another few coats on the above and see if any changes emerge.  The sheen will be the only difference without changing the stain.  I'm not sure if Tung oil mates better with a certain type of stain or not.. but if it does, it'll look 'deeper' with the Tung oil.. if it's anything like the antique oil I used.. man I loved that stuff. :)

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 07:19:13 AM »
I've always found tung oil works great when you have a rich grained wood and want to preserve a sense of texture that other finishes may tend to cover up depending upon coats.  However, a poly coat will likely get you a good bit more protection from scratches and spills than a tung oil would.  While the antique oil is not the same as tung oil, I have found that it works in a similar manner.

In a prior life, I did a lot of wood-working but no longer have the space nor time to do so.  I miss it!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 07:22:05 AM by mdconnelly »

Offline BobM

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Re: Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 07:36:36 AM »
Tung oil also makes a nice hard finish.
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 12:26:04 PM »
Rich - Yes, it seems it's all about 'wetting' the wood. Regardless of what goes on, as long as it continues to look like that, you're in good shape.  :lol: Granted, I'm using Minwax which I'd consider the McDonalds/Walmart of woodworking chemicals.  :roll: But am a little more than less than impressed with the differences.

Carl - Two coats for the Tung and Poly. No sanding in between. I think I'll play some more with my test piece to see what comes of it.

Bob - Tung oil gets hard? I thought it was more of an "oil" that stayed greasy (horrible choice of words, but it kinda fits. Hopefully you understand my intent).

Good info fellas. Thank you.

I'm a little surprised nobody has asked what material this is. I'm curious if anybody can identify the species. The product is actually Luan/Luaun (5 layer ply). I've used it many times in the past but have never seen such beautiful grain. It usually looks like crap since it's main purpose is a floor underlayment. Looks pretty damn nice at $14 for a 4'X8' doesn't it?
Might make a nice veneer for speakers.
 
Bob

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Re: Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 01:22:18 PM »
I find tung oil gets deep into forboding crevasses aka cracks and provides a lashing to the wood material...
Mike ;)

Offline richidoo

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Re: Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 01:48:48 PM »
Real luan is mahogany plywood imported from asia. One of the sweetest smells in the woodshop, but not stocked much anymore I guess due to high fuel costs in shipping and weak dollar. Yours looks pretty like maple, but no maple for floor underlay.

"Oil based" paint is made with seed oil. It oxidizes and turns hard. It is actually the same as when food oil turns rancid, pure free radicals. Linseed oil is usually used in oil paints. Tung seed oil is the same concept, but used clear without the opaque solids in paint. It is thinner and dries harder and faster than linseed, so it can be sanded between coats and build up a nice hard layer. Varnish is the same concept, except oxidized hydrocarbons from gasoline instead of oxidized fatty acids.

Offline Carlman

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Re: Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 02:41:35 PM »
One other tip with oil.. I'd use steel wool instead of sand paper.. adds to the lusterous goodness in my opinion.. just be careful to clean well between coats.. that fine wool can get into tiny spaces.
-C
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Offline BobM

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Re: Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2009, 05:41:04 AM »
If you use steel wool, which I agree does make for a smoother finish, do not try and wipe down the wood with a wet towel. You will cause any leftover steel wool particles to rust, almost immediately. This is most obvious on bare wood (never use steel wool on bare wood, it gets stuck in tiny cracks). It usually doesn't happen after a coat of something over the wood, but I still advise caution. If you want to use something damp, then dampen the towel with Linseed oil to wipe it down, but better to use a dry plyable brush.

Yes, tung oil takes about 24 hours to dry after application and it can certainly be sanded. The more coats you put on the more "sheen" you will get. It makes for a nice transparent and hard finish, not as hard as poly though.
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Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Romantic thoughts of wood species and final finish
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 09:19:44 AM »
Damn you guys are good.  8) Excellent information. Thank you very much, this is extremely useful stuff.
Interesting about the steel wool, on multiple levels. You've taught me quite a bit about that. Lots I didn't know about steel wool.

Bob