Author Topic: DTQWT-12  (Read 127629 times)

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #180 on: August 18, 2011, 07:48:18 AM »
Let's stay on topic with this DTQWT-12 discussion. Thanks! 

A couple days off for another trip out of town and coming back with fresh ears I am still getting too much treble, even down to low treble at the crossover. Brass are a little too brassy. So I'll pad it down some more til I find the right level.  I am at 3.7ohms now. 4.5 next.

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #181 on: August 18, 2011, 12:42:05 PM »
The improved speaker connections have really transformed the bass clarity and overall dynamics. I think some of the problems I had at first which I blamed on not enough stuffing were due to poor connections which raised the source impedance of the amp thus sacrificing control. I am listening to Rite of Spring, and I can hear the individual oscillations of the bass violins in the beginning. Great low bass texture, aka "fast and dry" just as Troels described.

NorthBear

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #182 on: August 28, 2011, 11:31:20 AM »
Richidoo,

Je suis trés content pour toi quee tu sois satisfait.
Si j'ai bien compris, la quantité d'insonorisant n'a pas été la solution.
Les résultats obtenus, peux-tu me les montrer en photos s'il te plaît?
Je ne sais pas si finalement ce que je t'avais dit a une importance capitale pour la transparence du son et notamment la qualité des basses.
J'ai obtenu d'excellents résultats au niveau des woofers avec:
Des selfs TRANSPARENTES:
http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/bobines-zero-ohm-n250-c-203_374_461.html

De la soudure argent, comme dit précédemment:
http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/soudure/mundorf-msolsg-p-2455.html

En soudant tous les composants directement entre eux.
En utlisant des borniers de qualité et des fils 650 brins.

La différence est Ahurissante!

NorthBear

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #183 on: August 28, 2011, 04:09:58 PM »
Translated by google:
Richidoo,

I am very happy for you quee you to be satisfied.
As I understand, the amount of soundproofing was not the solution.
The results, can you show me in pictures please?
I do not know ultimately what I told you was crucial to the transparency of its particularly low quality.
I got excellent results at the woofers with:
Chokes TRANSPARENT:
http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/bobines-zero-ohm-n250-c-203_374_461.html

Weld money, as said before:
http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/soudure/mundorf-msolsg-p-2455.html

By soldering all the components directly to each other.
Played in high quality terminal blocks and 650 strands son.

The difference is amazing!

NorthBear

Thanks Northbear for the good information.

The acoustic damping (stuffing) quantity and placement are both critical. After many experiments and listening I found the right recipe. I cannot take pictures because it is inside the cabinet.  But I can describe it in words.

Bass horn: Acoustistuff 3 inches thick against the sidewalls from bottom of horn to the top of inner horn wall. http://partsexpress.com   Leave the center passage open for best dynamics and deep bass extension.

Midrange horn, similar to above, with 2" thick lightly fluffed acoustistuff along the sidewalls as far down into the horn as possible, and about 8" above the center of the midrange driver.

Use a blob of light fluff behind the midrange driver between the vent hole and the horn wall.

I used Cardas Quad Eutectic Solder for the crossover assembly. It is not silver, but it works well. When it is finished I will switch to Wonder Solder. http://www.trt-wonder.com/

After improving the speaker cable to speaker connection and optimizing the stuffing I am now satisfied with the performance of the bass. It sounds clear, and is punchy and extends very low, so improving the quality of the bass coil is not necessary, although I know there are always better parts. :D  I will remember those you linked for future projects.

These crossovers are point to point construction using the provided terminal blocks which are not in circuit.
Rich

NorthBear

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #184 on: August 29, 2011, 09:01:02 AM »
Rich.,

Thank you for recapitulation and to have took time to make me read the mail Troels.
If you wish, I could send you a document I had prepared on the construction of DTQWT-12
Cost: € 3200
I am planning a huge sound with a medium warm and voices forward.
I have a vintage amplifier SA200 & C200  AR Cambridge.
And a reader CD 723 Philips modified, Able to ignite other materials over € 2500.
I must say what to put there too.
Are you interested to receive this document ?...


NorthBear

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #185 on: August 29, 2011, 09:53:50 AM »
Please link to your document in this thread for all to see.

€3200 is triple the cost of mine. Why is yours so expensive?

NorthBear

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #186 on: August 30, 2011, 11:32:55 AM »
 Richidoo,

I’ll link my document soon.

Why is yours so expensive?
Take account in what I’ll tell you now,   I included it in my future realization of DTQWT-12:

I try to optimize the quality of DRIVERS that I selected.    
It is only my opinion, but better to choose a MOREL ET 338-137 € or AUDAX Two34X0, like yours…,
► with a capacitor-Mundorf M-CAP SUPREME SILVER / GOLD / OIL 1200Vdc 5.60 uF to 146 € http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/cond_mun_fr.htm
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/morel/chassis/et338.pdf
http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/audax/audax-tw034x0-p-1804.html


Than a Dynaudio T330D ESOTAR to € 1400
► With Capacitors Mundorf audiophile 400VDC 5.60μF MKP MCap to 5.13 €
Not even a Jantzen Z-Superior MKP to € 23.05
http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/mcap-mkp-400v/mundorf-mcap400-560-p-4058.html
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/

To my point of view, this is nonsense!

Ditto for the terminal blocks, cables (651 bits) and the quality of welds.
This must be beyond reproach and consistent.
Finally, the box should have walls of 40 mm minimum and reinforcements smart!

About boxes, at the risk of repeating myself, DEAF materials are an essential basis for high quality speakers for restitution.
(The famous principle MASS / SPRING)
  
36 years ago, an engineer friend had used a flow line from concrete storm of Public Works. That's why I mentioned the other day speakers ELIPSON plaster with hemp tow
http://www.cerib.com/uploaded_files/basedoc/1132741572_tuyaux.pdf
Indeed, they were huge (very big) !
But I kept this moment only a musical "emotional memory":
A huge sound and transparency rather striking.
What I can say is that at the time I had already several HIFI, best, and yet his coveted stuff!
He worked in military surveillance. And the components were so ... military grade.

Today, there are woven polypropylene binders and adapted to the characteristics of concrete.
 We can cut and masonry at will!
Make shapes like SONUS FABER ... possible while retaining a useful litrage (volume) adapted.

From the building, there are also soundproof, pure wool.
Plates 1200 x 60 x 100 mm, the acoustic performance and very interesting price.
 Honestly, I think value for money (for those who can not afford the Baltic Birtch or dolomitic marble) it must be .... CONCRETE (béton)!
  
I recommend also the location of CROSSOVER into the heads of speakers in a sealed boxes and a vibration-proof plate.
The capacitors are very sensitive and restitution is affected!

These are some principles, based on experience that have been approached in my choice for DTQWT-12.

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #187 on: August 30, 2011, 12:44:06 PM »
That sounds like a fun adventure. I look forward to reading about your build and the final result.

Your english is getting BETTER!  :thumb:

Offline Face

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #188 on: August 30, 2011, 12:59:40 PM »
I recommend also the location of CROSSOVER into the heads of speakers in a sealed boxes and a vibration-proof plate.
The capacitors are very sensitive and restitution is affected!
You mean sensitive to resonances.  ;) 

I agree, but going external would be even better.  Another option would be to pot the crossovers in a brick of resin like Wilson and Sonus Faber. 

NorthBear

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #189 on: September 03, 2011, 03:45:43 AM »


I do'nt say you do !
I do it too.
We can hear the difference.

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #190 on: November 06, 2011, 11:27:12 AM »
Been fiddling with the speakers again, trying to optimize everything for the upcoming g2g.

I had placed about 3 sq feet of 703 FG insulation board into the center of the main horn to kill off a midrange peakiness that I heard during the stuffing process. It was a drastic measure taken in frustration with the sound of the new speakers. Over the ensuing months I realized that it made the speakers sound very muffled (duh). So for the g2g I was determined to kill off the muffled sound so I pulled out the FG and they really opened up a lot. I guess I didn't notice the muffling when I first put them in. I was pleased to discover that most of the midrange peakiness did not return with the FG boards removed, so win-win. I did some stuffing changes since I added the 703, but the smoother midrange is probably due to more burn in of drivers and caps. I'll try adding a bit of fluff behind the midrange driver to tame the remaining bite just a bit.  

But I gotta say that at the moment I'm very happy with the sound of the speakers. After I digest these changes I'm sure I'll hear the need for more adjustments, but it's a new high water mark.

I made some measurements before this latest change which show a good FR overall. I'll measure again after these final stuffing changes and post the curves.

I'm listening to my favorite symphonic band music (Fennel/Holst, etc) for a change, turned way up loud. No cringes! Bass drums like thunder crack, tone is pretty good except for the wily flutes, and dynamics are almost as good as my old Legacys. Very alive. This is with Sol's SS (120W) i60. More air (and noise) will come with the SETs.  I'm digging this!
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 11:36:02 AM by richidoo »

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #191 on: November 09, 2011, 04:40:58 AM »
The midrange driver is making a slight upper midrange glare. I think it is from the breakup mode of the driver which is undoped paper. The FR of the driver up close shows the breakup bump, but it's peak is broad and relatively smooth and flat. The sum with tweeter looks great, damn near perfect sum. But there must be some uncontrolled resonance in the cone because upper piano and flutes are peaky and the overtones of lower notes glow too much, along with overall mid brightness. It is centered around 1200-1400 so it's not too annoying, but I'd like to try to make it better.  The acoustic response measured inside the horn mouth shows nothing at those freqs and steep dropoff -50dB at 1.5kHz so it's not acoustic resonance in the horn. I can block off the tweeter with my hand and it does not affect the problem.

So I want to try adjusting the midrange low pass filter. This is the schematic.

It is a first order filter with the coil L2011. The coil is bypassed with what I would call a zobel filter to lower the coil's Q, which bends down the response. I want to steepen the bend, so I think I need to increase the size of C2011. Do you concur?

C2011 is only 1.0uF, so I'll parallel some smaller caps onto it.

I will measure before and after.
Thanks
Rich
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 04:47:10 AM by richidoo »

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #192 on: November 10, 2011, 11:18:03 AM »
I tried parallel caps but it didn't work. The FR graph below shows acoustic response with mic inside the mid cone. The gold is the stock 1uF crossover cap. Caps added in parallel to make: Green is 1.22uF, Blue is 2uF, Red is 11uF. The red attenuates at 1.5kHz, but its 4 kHz increases.



I could not hear any difference. 

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #193 on: November 10, 2011, 11:26:41 AM »
In room frequency response, both speakers playing mono test signal, 1/3 octave smoothing. Not bad.  The tweeter is deliberately padded down more than the original design, and has natural early rolloff. 




Midrange / Tweeter, mic on axis 18" away, height centered between driver centers. Crossover is supposedly at 2kHz. Looks good!




Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #194 on: November 13, 2011, 10:39:29 AM »
With the different tube amp the midrange issue has gone away. It must be amp related somehow, damping or whatever.