Author Topic: DTQWT-12  (Read 127618 times)

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #120 on: July 12, 2011, 01:42:19 PM »
Thanks Charles!

The drivers / crossovers are opening up nicely. But the excessive warmth is still there. It's either panel resonance or interior echos. The main horn chamber is huge, with no absorption at all.

I played just the MT drivers without the woofers. There is excessive midrange warmth.
But actually the lowest frequencies don't have that much distortion. ~800Hz and up is clean. 100-800 rings but mostly 100-400.

The upper midrange and treble tone is absolutely gorgeous. Violins are perfect, clear, dense and sharp, but no hard drivers so it doesn't cut. Plenty of treble for real music, but not quite enough for audiophile recordings. I will try the next smaller tweeter resistor sometime.

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #121 on: July 12, 2011, 05:00:24 PM »
I don't have the cosmic hippo, but I do have a test track I made for breaking in Carl's TC sub. It is two bass notes played at the same time. I call it sub torture. It sounds like a Huey hovering over the house

Do you guys think some of the mid warmth could be from driver stiffness?

Offline Face

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #122 on: July 13, 2011, 04:33:38 PM »
Have you measured their in room and near-field response? 

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #123 on: July 13, 2011, 06:50:11 PM »
I have not yet. I know I want to tune them better anyway. But I guess running a baseline would be valuable. Thanks for the idea. I already have one opened up for stuffing so I'll do it after the first tweak.

I'm adding about 1.25 pounds of acoustistuff to each speaker, that's about double what's in there now. I like to overdo things and back off. I think it is more efficient than creeping up on a target a mile away. I have been reading a lot about TQWT designs today, and it is most likely that the internal acoustic resonances are the issue, not panel resonance, although there is some of that too, of course. I have some ideas to try to reduce the echos in the horn.

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #124 on: July 14, 2011, 09:36:32 AM »
Happily, adding stuffing cured the horn ringing, but I used too much by filling the whole rear horn. It is too soft and muffled, need to fine tune it.

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #125 on: July 14, 2011, 10:45:29 AM »
The lowest tweeter setting (biggest resistor) is more than enough, I discovered that I had Sonos treble attenuated for my Infinity speakers.

I think the bass horn damping is about right now. Lowest notes are not as loud as before but still deep. It will take several tries to figure out the best way. The midrange horn needs more damping too.

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #126 on: July 14, 2011, 01:49:06 PM »
Got the 300Bs playing now. Nice! Presence is up, and liquidity. It's still a bit too round and warm for my taste, but does sound lovely. There's more tweaking to do on the speakers yet, I want to try some absorption inside the main center horn, as I can hear midrange echoing in there. The roundness may also be coming from the rear speakers since they are only 1st order low pass filter and will naturally lose resolution as frequency rises. The designer invented a acoustic trap to catch the upper frequencies, so I'll give that idea a try too. Basically suspend some absorption in front of the woofers to catch the midband.

I played some symphony stuff, sounds pretty good! Organ music is awesome. I pulled some stuffing out of the bottom of the rear horn, leaving a tunnel down the middle with stuffing on the side walls, that restored the deep bass without the ringing. Basically the bass horn treatment is thick pads of stuff running up the side walls, nothing in the middle of the pipe, so the length is not affected at all.

I have a pass DIY B1 preamp on hand for volume control to allow playing vinyl, but it'll need its long procrastinated surgery for new caps before it plays. A little birdie told me that there is a nice tube preamp coming to visit with me very soon!  :thumb:

Offline rollo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #127 on: July 15, 2011, 12:18:21 PM »
   Would Black Hole Pad be any help ? BTW the woofers really need to loosen up before you can make any real judgements.
   Give them some time there El Nervosian.  :rofl:


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Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #128 on: July 15, 2011, 01:59:06 PM »
Thanks Charles. Black Hole is a good all around combination box treatment. It does some mechanical damping and some acoustic damping, but does neither as well as can be done with separate materials optimized for their job.  I'd need a couple yards ($) of it to do these, and it is too thick to fit in some of the places. I did the bitumen membrane for the mechanical damping, just like the dense layer in Black Hole that sticks to the wood except denser and thicker. Then the acoustistuff and FG panel that I am using is like the BH foam layer which converts air velocity (pressure changes) to heat for acoustic damping.

You are right about the break in. They have about 20 hours so far. I think all the drivers are changing some. The woofers opened up pretty fast and sound good now, but the mid has entered a sharp phase, or needs more damping. Weekend is here so I'll just let it play while I do other things.

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #129 on: July 15, 2011, 02:02:07 PM »
One nice thing is that my 24W push pull 300Bs can run with no feedback at all without any sign of stress of distortion. I needed at least 5dB for normal music when playing with Usher Be20, and max 10dB when I wanted max power from them, but of course it sucked the life out the music. Now I can play big music with 0-2dB feedback.

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #130 on: July 19, 2011, 02:42:16 PM »
OK, I think the speakers are basically finished. I finished the stuffing today. There is a lot more stuffing now, which cured the internal ringing from mids down through bass. It is slightly stuffier, but the annoying ringing is gone, clarity and control is excellent top to bottom and the efficiency is still excellent.

I also discovered some loose screws between tweeter and waveguide which allowed them to clang together, which could be responsible for the edgy treble I heard before. It is gone now, but could have just needed break in.  Overall, the speakers sound awesome, much, much more than I expected when I started. They play huge, with great mid tone, and tuneful, punchy bass  all the way down. No reflex smear here.

They can play very loud for hard rock, organs and symphonies, and they still sound great at medium levels for compressed music. Bass is very physical. I would estimate it plays solid down to 35Hz, with lowest organ fundamentals easy to hear but not as strong as my old Legacy Focus 2020s. But they had a fun 6dB boost in low bass...  :rofl:

Whenever I put a loud, clear cone speaker in this room a midrange spike appears in the room acoustic. It is really singing now with no treatments on the walls. I am pretty sure it just the room though. It feels different in my head than the speaker sound does, must be the arrival time difference. Anyway, there is a lot of acoustic treatment up on deck next. I am looking forward to that because it is easy work. But I have 100 degree weather all week! The speakers put too much energy into the room without room damping. It's getting very damped in here! At least 160 sq feet, if not 250+ if I have the time. It has to look good so that goes a little slower.

Still remaining to do on these speakers is proper feet, which elevate the bottom of the speaker off the floor to allow the internal horn to exhaust past the edges. I have been using a loose stack of 3 square blocks at each corner. That has been inconvenient to say the least in the tuning where the speaker was laid over numerous times. I guess I should have done the feet first, but still not sure how I want them to look or function. Blocks will remain until I figure it out. I will need solid footing in place before the witch doctor Carlman can come over here and put his magic voodoo on the positioning.

Wood finishing is all that remains. I plan to do a nice rosewood oil stain and satin urethane from General Finishes. It has worked well for me before without spraying or a booth.

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #131 on: July 19, 2011, 03:10:38 PM »
Actually, with a little more listening, I think I will pull out some stuffing in midrange horn, because the midrange is too subdued now, too soft SPL and too controlled and dry . It's a fine line because it can easily ring, so I'll be adjusting one cotton ball at a time here soon...  :roll:  But it will be great if I can find that balance of aliveness and control. It's a never ending tedious process, but so much better now than when I started. If the speaker weren't such high resolution the tuning would not be so critical. I am happy with the bass now, which is a relief!

Offline Face

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #132 on: July 20, 2011, 07:44:00 AM »
I'm really surprised the mid doesn't have it's own sub enclosure. 

As for feet: http://www.myesound.com/Points_n_pads.html

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #133 on: July 20, 2011, 07:53:02 AM »
It's a rear horn on the mid, supposedly interacts beneficially with the horn for woofers. Thanks for the link, those look nice!

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #134 on: July 20, 2011, 11:33:25 AM »
Parts Express black speaker spike .41 each when you by at least 4

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=249-727&FTR=249-727