Interconnects: sc vs. sc.

[mdconnelly]

Shep, great point!  The GTG at my place was primarily intended to compare speaker cables and that we did as reflected in earlier posts here and in other threads.  However, this thread, which was started as a discussion of Grover's new ICs, has a few recent posts referencing Grover's speaker cable comparison which could be misinterpreted.

We did have the chance to compare Grover's latest 'SC.' interconnects with his 'SC' ICs as well.  There was no doubt at the GTG or as posted by others, that not only are Grover ICs excellent cables at a great price point, but also that the new SC. cables are a definite step up from the SC, which were already outstanding ICs. 

[grover]

Bash the capital rich guys all you want, but just hope they don't stop spending. Only people with significant disposable income buy high end audio gear.
[/quote]

Are you saying Rich that only the rich guys should have great cables. Also are you saying that in the event my cables should achieve great status I should raise my prices astronomically.  Because they've become high art? By the way I'm not bashing rich guys why would I do that? I'm with you I glad that there are rich guys providing to this fun. I have a different way of looking at it. I want the other than rich guys to have great cables too. This is good for everyone, and is my focus. I'm looking forward to your meet Rich. I'll break in the cables this time.

[richidoo]

I want the other than rich guys to have great cables too. This is good for everyone, and is my focus.

It hurts to want.  High end audio is not a fertile environment for charity. Consumers expect to get what they pay for.   I am sure your prices will continue to increase rapidly as they did this year to keep up with improving value and increasing demand. You can't bend the laws of business anymore than those of physics.

Marketing on price alone has been a losing tactic since commerce began. It cheapens a company's image and creates mistrust because it is immoral to deliberately make an inferior product, or to not love money, the only two ways to have artificially low prices. People don't trust people who don't love money enough to raise prises to the market tolerance. They trust people who raise product quality to compete on value. That's why companies who market themselves as "the best" in their industry are the most successful. Being the best is the ultimate value statement.   That's why we compare you to JPS Aluminata, which is our best for the time being. We are very fortunate to have it available as a reference.

[shep]

Rich don't discourage the man! We need idealists!

[Carlman]

Ever read 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad'?  Might be worth the $5.

[grover]

It hurts to want.  High end audio is not a fertile environment for charity. Consumers expect to get what they pay for.   I am sure your prices will continue to increase rapidly as they did this year to keep up with improving value and increasing demand. You can't bend the laws of business anymore than those of physics.

Marketing on price alone has been a losing tactic since commerce began. It cheapens a company's image and creates mistrust because it is immoral to deliberately make an inferior product, or to not love money, the only two ways to have artificially low prices. People don't trust people who don't love money enough to raise prises to the market tolerance. They trust people who raise product quality to compete on value. That's why companies who market themselves as "the best" in their industry are the most successful. Being the best is the ultimate value statement.  That's why we compare you to JPS Aluminata, which is our best for the time being. We are very fortunate to have it available as a reference.
[/quote]


Rich I think a lot of what you're saying is your opinion, and a lot common sense. I have nothing against any company selling their products for what ever they feel it's worth. Obviously the cream rises to the top. Again I'm not sure that it's a general rule that companies that label themselves the best are the most successful. In the real world there are many examples of companies that offer quality products that do not label themselves the best and out sell those companies labeling themselves the best. Don't you suspect that labeling ones product the best maybe a marketing ploy. Dynaco a company I previously mentioned that never labeled itself the best outsold all the other amplifier manufacturers together. Therefore as I see it success is related to the quality of the product and it's affordability.  Also I think the general rule in high end audio is that it's very relative what you get for your money. I glad you're a believer though. My marketing plan has nothing to do with charity, more with making wonderful products more affordable. Wouldn't you like this also?

[richidoo]

My main point about being disqualified is still unanswered, and instead we are off on a tangent about business philosophy. Your prices are good and the cables are a good value, you raise them 33% since last GB and the value has increased. You want to serve poor audiophiles which is commendable, but you can't run a business on that while still competing with the best performing brands with no such self-imposed price limitation. You will always need capital rich guys to make your business viable. As long as both companies price fairly by delivering value matching the price, the rich will choose the higher priced cable to get more performance into their system. There is no way to deliver the same performance at 20% of the price in the long run. If there is then the price no object cable makers will lower prices to offer more value and attract more customers. They don't need to because they offer good value at the high price. That's what the G2G showed, and we are not capital rich guys. None of us paid full price for our wires and only half own JPS.

I may seem like I'm being a jerk but my original point about the complaining that we weren't fair in evaluating the speaker wires is still ignored. After all the work we have done for grover that is tough to swallow. I tried to use logic to convey the point that his reason that we cheated him is price was a farce but it is hitting a forcefield of obfuscation.  This is my last post on the matter.  Sorry to everyone for the diversion.

[stereofool]

I'm FAR from an intellectual...so I won't even try to hurt my brain by going anywhere near the debate  !

However, I would LOVE to have very high performing cables for (relative) cheap. I think that if Grover can pull this off, then he will certainly be supplying a wonderful service to audiophiles of all stripes.

Keep in mind that our generation of audiophiles are starting to get on in age...except for some of you pups  . Thus, the only way our hobby can (probably) survive, let alone grow, will be for the price of entry to be within reach of those with more modest means. Certainly, this applies to the next few years as our economy slowly recovers; and keep in mind that it may be a significant number of years before we see the amount of freely disposable income become available to allow people to spend large bucks on the 'toys' that we love so much.

[grover]

Sorry I must have missed the you weren't fair in comparing the speaker wires. I never said that, and don't believe it.  I raised the price of IC's because the carbon was expensive, but have no plans in the for seeable future to do so again. And I plan to be true to my philosophy.  To me this is all fun, and I find this marketing debate stimulating. I'm glad we had it. There was very good information shared. I learned a lot thanks to all.

[richidoo]

Me too, thanks Grover! You're a good sport.

[shep]

Radio silence? Is the subject of the speaker wires taboo? HAs anyone now heard them properly? I would like an update please. By the way, it seems that the IC's take a Looooong time to burn in. I must be around 70 hours on the burn in CD and they are still arranging their molucules.

[richidoo]

Hi shep! The speaker wires are back with Grover, he is checking them out. If he finds something out of order then we'll listen to them again on May 30th after they're fixed.

[shep]

Don't you just love it when occasionally it all comes together? I have had the cables burning in on the Isotek cd for well over 150 hours. Tonight I put on my best test cd, (Steely Dan "Morph the Cat"...this is a must-have recording by the way and not bad musically either), turned it up LOUD and was rewarded with a wall of clean transparent sound, without a trace of hardness, thunderous bass, extended highs and everything working together like a charm. I don't know if it's the cables or the Jenzen caps finally settling in but I was a happy audio neurotic! I strongly recommend you reserve judgement on these latest Grover's until they have well and truly been thrashed to the last atom. The sound I have tonight it totally and utterly transformed from when I put them in the system. Voila By the way my ICE module amp is a winner. It just sits there, small, cool, and utterly composed no matter what it's asked to do. I had these stone walls pulsing and there wasn't a trace of clipping or strain.

[djbnh]

Don't you just love it when occasionally it all comes together? I have had the cables burning in on the Isotek cd for well over 150 hours.... I don't know if it's the cables or the Jenzen caps finally settling in but I was a happy audio neurotic! I strongly recommend you reserve judgement on these latest Grover's until they have well and truly been thrashed to the last atom.

I too use the Isotek CD and it has always appreciably shortened burn-in time. To those non-users: if it took Shep over 150 hours to burn the ICs with the Isotek CD, I think you may be looking at a disturbingly lengthy burn-in (1,000 hours?) process. Shep, I wonder if the caps had something to do with the length of time you experienced. Thanks for your post.

[richidoo]

I agree isotek and frybaby work good to speed up break in. Grover is burning in the SC wires himself and listening to them before shipping back to us to make sure they are to his liking.