Author Topic: grover s vs. current grover  (Read 18186 times)

Bigfish8

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Re: grover s vs. current grover
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2008, 07:40:15 PM »
Guy's, sorry for asking but why are you all so worried about arrows and which way you are hooking ic's up?

I suspect that if I reverse the direction of a cable after it's been broken in,  it will change sonically until broken in again.

I would have my doubts. If I snuck in to your house one night and switched your ic's around I would bet you anything you like that you or anybody else for that matter would NOT notice.

There is no difference.....those little 22awg conductors that most ic's are made up of could care less which way the signal travels and that is from not only a scientific standpoint but also a technical standpoint.

If they do care, maybe get one of those funky watches that are up for grabs on Audiogon as that should look after things (sorry couldn't resist!).  :rofl:



John:

Do you also believe that cables do not go through sound changes as they go from being brand new to having two to three hundred hours of playing time on them?   

Ken

Black Sand Cable

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Re: grover s vs. current grover
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2008, 07:55:43 PM »
Quote

John:

Do you also believe that cables do not go through sound changes as they go from being brand new to having two to three hundred hours of playing time on them?   

Ken

Ken, sorry but what does this have to do with directional or non directional cables? This is a completely different subject all together.

Bigfish8

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Re: grover s vs. current grover
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2008, 08:17:31 PM »
Quote

John:

Do you also believe that cables do not go through sound changes as they go from being brand new to having two to three hundred hours of playing time on them?   

Ken

Ken, sorry but what does this have to do with directional or non directional cables? This is a completely different subject all together.


No, it is a variation of the same subject!

I don't understand the logic that ICs are not intended to be directional!  If a cable is not directional, according to the claims made above, then why could anyone suspect that a cable requires break-in time?  Also, ever power cord I have ever seen comes supplied with some type of male and female plug.  While the wire in the cord is not directional (at least before the first use) is has been constructed and it life will be spent as a directional device.  The same goes with all of the wiring in your house.   

Okay guys, please tell me where my train of thought is in error?  Yes, I know I can reverse the direction of wiring in my house or have plugs changed from one end of a cord to another.  How often is this done - not often!  Also please explain to me why I hear (as well published by others) sound changes as ICs go through a use break-in period?  Now given the logic that all PCs and wiring coming to your system has at least been made directional through use then why would I not expect to keep my ICs directional?

Bottom-line for me is I don't know if ICs are or are not directional (in terms of making a difference to sound) but I am going to consistently hook mine up in the same direction.  Call it a belief in Audio Voodoo but most of us shell out a lot of money based on the sizzle, not the steak!

Ken
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 03:18:55 AM by Bigfish8 »

Offline richidoo

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Re: grover s vs. current grover
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2008, 09:44:36 AM »
Break in of a wire is, as I currently understand it, the reorientation of molecules in conductor (inner layers more than skin) and especially insulation to allow current to pass more efficiently. They stay in the same position but flip around until the charges on their surface are most compatible with the surrounding molecules and dynamic fields. The electric field in the conductor manipulates the orientation of the molecules within the field (conductor, dielectric, metal case and even air) and the molecules respond by finding an orientation that is most "comfortable" in accordance with 1st law of motion (inertia.) Just like trash on the road eventually finds its way to the gutter through the force of passing cars, then stays there unless acted by another randomizing force like wind. Same road, same trash, different orientation, allows traffic to pass more efficiently. Another analogy would be a 4x4 beam in the road will be knocked around until it lies in the centerline pointing in the direction of traffic. It is still in the same location, just reoriented so that it can rest and avoid the passing force. Some materials will change slower than others, so break in time varies. Like teflon caps take a long time, they better resist the field, require more energy to spin the molecules around or alter their shape with a huge molecule like teflon.  But this is not truth, just my version of dogma, you are encouraged to be skeptical, I have never seen this happen with my own eyes, although I have seen trash on the road :)

Mains power and musical signals are alternating current not direct current. The electric field that moves electrons oscillates through the conductor in both directions like a piston, not in one direction like a water hose. Electricity in either is always moving in two directions, each in the exact same amount. Hot and neutral conductors both oscillate in both directions, just like positive and ground in a signal wire. DC current will actually cause electron migration, but that is still just charges, not atoms or molecules moving so there is really no mode by which a preference to flow electricity in either direction can be formed.

If I made cables I would paint arrows on them too, to avoid phone calls from the people who believe direction matters bugging me to explain which direction is "right."
Rich

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: grover s vs. current grover
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2008, 10:14:13 AM »
Interesting myth-buster opportunity here, don't ya think?    Maybe at the next G2G of the Triangle Audio Society we oughta give it a try.... after all, John did offer to bet anything on this... we should take him up on it! 

Black Sand Cable

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Re: grover s vs. current grover
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2008, 11:35:45 AM »
Interesting myth-buster opportunity here, don't ya think?    Maybe at the next G2G of the Triangle Audio Society we oughta give it a try.... after all, John did offer to bet anything on this... we should take him up on it! 

Sure.....put me on the spot!  :duh

But in all honesty, I would take that bet. Listen to a system and have somebody swap the direction of the ic's or even the speaker wire without telling anybody and tell me if anybody noticed. I have done it and have yet to ever hear a change which is why I would in fact put my money where my mouth is.

As Rich pointed out, ac by nature is nothing more then electrons which go back and forth meaning that directionality of a wire is impossible. You can label them as being such but the signal that is traveling back and forth, isn't paying any attention to it!

Also, Rich's exaplanaiton is basically accurate:

Quote
Break in of a wire is, as I currently understand it, the reorientation of molecules in conductor (inner layers more than skin) and especially insulation to allow current to pass more efficiently. They stay in the same position but flip around until the charges on their surface are most compatible with the surrounding molecules and dynamic fields. The electric field in the conductor manipulates the orientation of the molecules within the field (conductor, dielectric, metal case and even air) and the molecules respond by finding an orientation that is most "comfortable" in accordance with 1st law of motion (inertia.)

The question becomes, can you hear the above take place before, during and after?

The thing that I also find fascinating based on the above (which is true) is this. Based on the above if I take a set of ic's out of my system for any length of time, would they not be subject to "break in" or adaptation or whatever you want to call it all over again? Would the same then not hold true if I turn my system off for an extended period of time. Based on that, unless my system runs 24/7 are they ever really "broken in'?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 11:40:47 AM by Black Sand Cable »

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: grover s vs. current grover
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2008, 12:57:46 PM »
Hah!   Me thinks we have definitely drifted toward the nervosa part of this hobby.    #-o

Bigfish8

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Re: grover s vs. current grover
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2008, 02:01:13 PM »

The thing that I also find fascinating based on the above (which is true) is this. Based on the above if I take a set of ic's out of my system for any length of time, would they not be subject to "break in" or adaptation or whatever you want to call it all over again? Would the same then not hold true if I turn my system off for an extended period of time. Based on that, unless my system runs 24/7 are they ever really "broken in'?

Okay guys, I can really buy into John's question above and thanks to Rich and John for the explanation about AC Current.  Also, I will not put a stake into the bet against John's argument that changing direction of ICs will not be noticed - I actually believe him; however, I again believe in audio voodoo so I will keep them connected in a consistent manner! :rofl: :duh

Ken

« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 06:55:07 AM by Carlman »

Offline richidoo

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Re: grover s vs. current grover
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2008, 03:01:22 PM »
so I will keep them connected in a consistent manner! :rofl: :duh

Ken

Of course!! Me too! Why do you think they write those little arrows on there?   Crazy fun hobby.